Phenom 9500 w/ MSI K9A2 Platinum

madfaze: If I understand correctly, there's 4 major voltage domains on a Core 2 chip and for K10h, +4x PLL+1x IMC+1x HT but the HT voltage is the same as the FSB voltage in the C2 chips. The PCIe links are controlled by the I/O hubs in the RD790 chipset, so if you were to increase their voltage, it may very well increase PCIe volts too. :yepp:

jonspd: hows your Phenom running, any updates? ;)

G.Skill, I'll try but not until after I can get a Phenom. It'll be 9850, most likely, I'm not bothering with more I have duties to attend to now.

BTW, somethings going on - it looks like stores were price gouging initially but something else also.
9850 BE yesterday dropped price across all stores here even before release.

It was 176-201 before yesterday everywhere but by yesterday all of them dropped the price to 142-149, which is around $20-30 lower than Q6600 G0 here and $40-50 lower than the cheapest Q9300 is "on order" for.

That's also $40 lower than 9600/9600 BE were retailed here for until mid-Feb '08. The new price is pretty good for a 2,5G IMO since I do reckon there's higher chance of 2.8-3G stable on these than the B2.

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Originally Posted by KTE

From looking at Dr. Hasans research and papers (one of the chief scientists heading IBM/AMD 45nm technology) it looks to be a 32nm implementation and not until then, they don't have the mass tooling required either. They've gone past the first phase of research, process, initial product test but not far past that that I know of. It's certainly a future target..

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Yeah, when you posted that information it got me thinking... when D. Wang published his summary information from the 2007 IEDM (http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cf...1608222300&p=6) I missed the info about him taking the ITSA NMOS numbers from the VLSI Symposium in June. The 2007 IEDM proceedings have been published, but I could not find anything on current state of ITSA 45 nm, thinking I just simply passed over it I took the RTW data at face value.

So, prodding a little, I noted the footnote, looked up the VLSI paper and wolla .. D. Wang is quoting intial HK/MG data from the IBM paper I linked above -- to date we only know that AMD will not initially use HK/MG so that data is irrelevant in that regard. Weird also in that data was generated before last Jan. so using his information is terribly in error ... we don't know diddly squat, that data is simply too old, too much can change and is different.

Nonetheless, the (110) technology is extraordinarily interesting, especially in the SOI implementation -- as I understand from reading up on this, one must 'dig' a hole and selective grow (110) oriented Si to form the device. From the experimental data, they can push to near 1 mA/um which is just a hair shy of a MG NMOS device... this is impressive. If they do cut it in at 32 nm, together the HK/MG this will be something very special indeed.

Jack

BTW, there's more Athlon line CPUs set to release ;)

65nm Brisbane (512KiBx2)
Athlon X2 5600+ G2, 76W 2900MHz
Athlon X2 4600+ (ee) G2, 45W 2600MHz

Athlon X2 4850e+ G2, 45W 2500MHz
Athlon X2 4450e+ G2, 45W 2300MHz
Athlon X2 4050e+ G2, 45W 2100MHz

[Sempron I think]
2100 G1, 65W 1800MHz
2100 G2, 65W 1800MHz
2200 G2, 65W 2000MHz

Has anyone tried visiting MSI Taiwan (Q&A) and been given a Virus attack caution by your AV? I can't get in to check their responses because of my AV stopping the link connection saying it's linked to downloading a Virus. I'm not going to risk it frankly.

This is the link to MSI Online Customer Service [CAUTION!! have your AV at full blast so any virus is caught by it]: http://ocss.msi.com.tw/index.php?mod=questions&dop=list

Let me know if any of you also get a virus alert on trying to access it or if its just my AV playing up (I doubt...) :)

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Originally Posted by JumpingJack

Yeah, when you posted that information it got me thinking... when D. Wang published his summary information from the 2007 IEDM (http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cf...1608222300&p=6) I missed the info about him taking the ITSA NMOS numbers from the VLSI Symposium in June. The 2007 IEDM proceedings have been published, but I could not find anything on current state of ITSA 45 nm, thinking I just simply passed over it I took the RTW data at face value.

So, prodding a little, I noted the footnote, looked up the VLSI paper and wolla .. D. Wang is quoting intial HK/MG data from the IBM paper I linked above -- to date we only know that AMD will not initially use HK/MG so that data is irrelevant in that regard. Weird also in that data was generated before last Jan. so using his information is terribly in error ... we don't know diddly squat, that data is simply too old, too much can change and is different.

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I had read the papers from the authors when they were presented so RW article was just a second source for me. I'll clarify this out more:-

Intel released their 45nm HK/MG (internal process codename is P1266 BTW) at IEDM 2007, in the paper entitled A 45nm Logic Technology with High-k+Metal Gate Transistors, Strained Silicon, 9 Cu Interconnect Layers, 193nm Dry Patterning, and 100% Pb-free Packaging - K. Mistry is the Manager of this technology node and the main presenter.

In it they mentioned:

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Many challenges with high-k integration have included VT pinning, mobility degradation due to soft optical phonons, and poor reliability [1-3]. Metal gate electrodes not only eliminate the poly depletion effect, but enable high-k dielectrics by screening the SO phonons that cause mobility degradation

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Quote:

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A key challenge was to simultaneously integrate high-k gate dielectrics, optimal workfunction metal gate electrodes and highly strained silicon channels. Transistors feature 160nm gate pitch, 35nm physical gate length, hafnium-based 1.0nm EOT high-k gate dielectric, dual workfunction metal gate electrodes, enhanced channel strain, ultra shallow junctions & nickel silicide.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Transistor Performance

PMOS performance is improved by using high-k+MG as well as by increasing the Ge content of the embedded SiGe to 30% from 23% (65nm [8]) and 17% (90nm [6]) and by reducing SiGe proximity to the channel. Drive currents are benchmarked at 1.0V, a low 100nA/μm IOFF and at 160nm contacted gate pitch. PMOS drive current (Fig. 10) of 1.07 mA/μm demonstrates 51% improvement over 65nm [8].
NMOS drive current (Fig. 11) is 1.36mA/μm, 12% better than our 65nm transistors [8]. The average drive current improvement over 65nm is 32% at the same voltage and IOFF despite scaled transistor pitch. These represent the best drive currents reported to date for 45nm technology at low IOFF.

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Thats where we have the whooper figures from. If you compare Intels PMOS/NMOS IDSAT vs. IOFF curve, it's a huge increase from 65nm to 45nm. Gate leakage is reduced >25x for NMOS and 1000x for PMOS, and the IDSAT improvement figures reflect this positively.

IBM/AMD's 45m SOI CMOS figures were first released at IEDM 2006, in the paper entitled High Performance 45-nm SOI Technology with Enhanced Strain, Porous Low-k BEOL, and Immersion Lithography

In it they mentioned:-

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Originally Posted by Transistor Performance

The list of FET-specific performance elements includes enhanced dual-stress liner (DSL), advanced eSiGe, stress memorization (SMT), and advanced anneal (AA). The resulting PFET/NFET Idsat values, at Vdd of 1.0V and 45nm GR gate pitch, are 840μA/μm and 1240μA/μm respectively. The global wiring delay achieved with k=2.4 reflects a 20% reduction compared to k=3.0.

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Later Fig. 14, shows the PMOS/NMOS IDSAT vs. IOFF curve showing IDSAT DC:
PFET = 800uA/um @ IOFF 200nA/um
NFET = 1140uA/um @ IOFF 200nA/um

Then at the VLSI Symposium 2007, Rhiga Royal Hotel – Kyoto, Japan – June 14-16; IBM/AMD's latest figures were revealed but for 45nm HK/MG, in the paper entitled High-Performance High-k/Metal Gates for 45nm CMOS and Beyond with Gate-First Processing. Lead members from the 3 MFGS I know that attended and presented on topics were Jim Farrell (AMD), Stephen Kosonocky (IBM) and Vivek De (Intel).

In there was mentioned:-

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Originally Posted by Transistor Performance

Fig. 6 shows a DC Idsat of 1240uA/um @ Ioff = 200nA/um with a corresponding AC Idsat 1364uA/um (non-self-heated) in the nFET HK/MG devices at 1.0V

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By using an integration method that is consistent with traditional high thermal budget gate-first CMOS processing we have demonstrated improved short channel control with high-k/metal gate devices compared to SiON. The aggressive Tinv scaling enables Lgate scaling and results in the highest performing HK/MG nFET devices to-date for the 45nm technology and beyond. BE pFET HK/MG devices are shown with the lowest Tinv to-date providing a gate-first integration path for dual BE HK/MG CMOS technology implementation.

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If you check the figures, much data of NMOS and PMOS is given but the ION vs IOFF curve of PMOS is skipped altogether. ;)

So yeah, these last figures shown by RW in Jan '08 are not 45nm data we're seeing for AMD's Shanghai, but they will be improvments on the first figures I quoted from IBM/AMD's 2006 45nm CMOS as shown above instead. But I'd expect you to know that :slapass:

The latest figures we know given by IBM/AMD were at IEDM 2007 in the paper (110) Channel, SiON Gate-Dielectric PMOS with Record High Ion=1 mA/um Through Channel Stress and Source Drain External Resistance (Rext) Engineering and I believe some newer figures are hinted in the paper SiGe Selective Epitaxy: Process Development for High Performance 45nm CMOS Technology but I can't get access to that paper yet, it was submitted at the ECS 2007 Conference though. :)

Been great... No updates or anything just holding still for alittle while. Enjoying cod 4 for a while :D is that price USD? So you can get ahold of the 9850s already?

I was gonna update the chipset drivers but changed my mine as my b-day is less then 1 month away and looking forward to some kinda upgrade.

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Originally Posted by KTE

madfaze: If I understand correctly, there's 4 major voltage domains on a Core 2 chip and for K10h, +4x PLL+1x IMC+1x HT but the HT voltage is the same as the FSB voltage in the C2 chips. The PCIe links are controlled by the I/O hubs in the RD790 chipset, so if you were to increase their voltage, it may very well increase PCIe volts too. :yepp:

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is that good?i mean if i increase volt on pcie will it do any damamge on it? :confused:

UK: etailer claims Phenom 9850, 9750, 9550 all in stock!
http://www.awd-it.co.uk/scripts/prod...dCategory=1867

:D

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Originally Posted by jonspd

Been great... No updates or anything just holding still for alittle while. Enjoying cod 4 for a while :D is that price USD? So you can get ahold of the 9850s already?

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No, not yet. Prices USD, I'm not sure, ones I mentioned were EU prices.

Prices in US are higher - around $260 ATM but I've just checked up, your stocks are delayed. Expect ETA for your stocks to be April 14th or thereby. :(

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Originally Posted by madfaze

is that good?i mean if i increase volt on pcie will it do any damamge on it? :confused:

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Is there a need to increase NB/PCIe volts?

You have no need to increase them. I did 1600 HT on my 5000+ BE and 14xx HT fully stable without even touching NB/HT volts. ;)
Yes, PCIe volts tend to degrade up your SATA HD and/or OS if you start increasing them like that.


Just to add. If you're after these CPUs (clock similar to 5000+ BE), then go into Google Shopping and copy/paste the embolded codes, then search:

Athlon X2 4850e+ G2, 45W 2500MHz ADH4850DOBOX
Athlon X2 4450e+ G2, 45W 2300MHz ADH4450DOBOX
Athlon X2 4050e+ G2, 45W 2100MHz ADH4050DOBOX

ETA is any time in the next 7 days in most places. I would wait till 8th and then start checking just like for B3 Phenoms. They are very cheap, cheaper than any 65nm X2 CPU out yet. 4850e 2.5G 45W is 33% price of E6750 2.67G 65W here.

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Has anyone tried visiting MSI Taiwan (Q&A) and been given a Virus attack caution by your AV? I can't get in to check their responses because of my AV stopping the link connection saying it's linked to downloading a Virus. I'm not going to risk it frankly.

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yeah, ive been getting that since yesterday, im using avast btw. i risked it on another pc ansd currently running a virus scan...
---update---
< finished the virus scan, and it found a virus in my c drive matching the description from the alert that we are getting from the msi site,..anyone knows an email address where we can report this to?>
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Anyway, another chapter in the k9a2 NB multiplier saga...just when i'm about to give up on this mobo...

Dear Sir/Madam,

Yes,because it is very inconvenient for user overclocking.If you adjust Northbridge multiplier improperly,the system will hang.But I have a good news for you,BIOS engineer tell me that they will consider re-adding the item in the BIOS code today.They will try to solve the instability issue while adding the item,please wait patiently.If this BIOS is released,I will contact you ASAP.

Sorry for any inconvenience to you.
Have a good day.
Thanks and Best wishes
MSI Technical Support Team

Posted: Apr 03, 2008 by MSI

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Originally Posted by bgbdbstrd

yeah, ive been getting that since yesterday, im using avast btw. i risked it on another pc ansd currently running a virus scan...
---update---
< finished the virus scan, and it found a virus in my c drive matching the description from the alert that we are getting from the msi site,..anyone knows an email address where we can report this to?>
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Thanks for testing it. :)

Yep, I had Avast too and the virus they knew about and have cleaned up now [check again] ;)
Avast! should easily pick up and clear that virus.

As I mentioned, MSI are adding NB Multi option back in there.. they just need to work around the bugs that come along with it [many].

So for you guys who've been asking for it: you'll have to play, test and debug it and then give them appropriate feedback because otherwise they will just remove it again if you don't and if it just creates them more hassle. Remember what I just said, it's important. :yepp:

Phenom 9850, 9750, 9550 are in stock here too confirmed: http://www.tekheads.co.uk/s/search?a...ment=&sortBy=1

;)

Morning Tye;) Let me ask you is there any advantage of running a 4GB Ram Kit in Vista with this Phenom? Anything thats noticeable with the OS running smoother or anything else for that matter?

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Originally Posted by Brother Esau

Morning Tye;) Let me ask you is there any advantage of running a 4GB Ram Kit in Vista with this Phenom? Anything thats noticeable with the OS running smoother or anything else for that matter?

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Depends what you're doing Cam... normal usage (not graphics/media/game/memory heavy) you'll just be wasting the extra RAM as more RAM is slower and harder to oc than less RAM. It's also harder on the IMC ;)

Can someone advise me if thee's any better OC BIOS than 113 yet please?

I'm in need of one right now...

Thanks Tye and wheres that Blue Bow tie I sent for your User Title @:doh: :sofa:

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Originally Posted by KTE

Depends what you're doing Cam... normal usage (not graphics/media/game/memory heavy) you'll just be wasting the extra RAM as more RAM is slower and harder to oc than less RAM. It's also harder on the IMC ;)

Can someone advise me if thee's any better OC BIOS than 113 yet please?

I'm in need of one right now...

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P0J is good for everything except NB/IMC, the TLB disable fix works properly as well. Very stable auto voltage settings with the bios too. Still doing 2.6ghz with C&Q enable on my 9600be. But, if you're getting a b3 phenom 9850 or something, I'd go with official bios 1.2, same settings and everything as 1.1b3 but only issue I had was the TLB fix, otherwise I went to 2.7ghz stable with that, not to mention that one still has nb/imc states settings. Granted as far as a b3 phenom goes you'd almost have to retest any of the beta bios's that still had all the settings you wanted.

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Originally Posted by Mathos

P0J is good for everything except NB/IMC, the TLB disable fix works properly as well. Very stable auto voltage settings with the bios too. Still doing 2.6ghz with C&Q enable on my 9600be. But, if you're getting a b3 phenom 9850 or something, I'd go with official bios 1.2, same settings and everything as 1.1b3 but only issue I had was the TLB fix, otherwise I went to 2.7ghz stable with that, not to mention that one still has nb/imc states settings. Granted as far as a b3 phenom goes you'd almost have to retest any of the beta bios's that still had all the settings you wanted.

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Thanks Mathos, that's what I have. ;)

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Originally Posted by Brother Esau

Thanks Tye and wheres that Blue Bow tie I sent for your User Title @:doh: :sofa:

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Np... blue bow tie?

Oh that one! Well... you know.... threw it in the bin where it belonged :p: :D

Don't you know I dress shirtless? :cool:

geil Esoteria 4GB kit is perfectly fine with this setup, and 1.2 and Vista 64bit play very well with my 3600X2. Still no OC yet, as I'm reinstalling all programs, but at least this combo is stable.

I can't get those kits here (i.e. not in this country) or I'd test 'em out for ya Kayin. :(

Guys, I have no idea why but Phenom 9850/9750/9550 are dropping in price very quickly already. There's been further price drops and you can pick it up cheaper today around Europe. :shrug:

Prices are pretty good now actually.

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Originally Posted by KTE

I can't get those kits here (i.e. not in this country) or I'd test 'em out for ya Kayin. :(

Guys, I have no idea why but Phenom 9850/9750/9550 are dropping in price very quickly already. There's been further price drops and you can pick it up cheaper today around Europe. :shrug:

Prices are pretty good now actually.

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Just a guess:
Maybe cause Intels:Q9300@9450 (oem) are in stock now,at my local shop anyway:rolleyes:
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.p...l&promoid=1060
I left a 50 cdn deposit for the MSI K9A2:) and the B3's Phenoms should be here on the 7th, until then Tony's record
will hold:D

KTE You should try the A7376ACI.103 if you got the time, PCIe frequency adjustable in bios, correct TBL fix on the 4 cores, OCed fine the 9600, no NB multi :( , but was stable to the point that I sold the system to a old time friend. I didn't tested with my 9500, overall was a good bios.
My preferred bios was P0D, good loving I got from that one, with the help of RW-Everything.

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Originally Posted by SocketMan

Just a guess:
Maybe cause Intels:Q9300@9450 (oem) are in stock now,at my local shop anyway:rolleyes:
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.p...l&promoid=1060
I left a 50 cdn deposit for the MSI K9A2:) and the B3's Phenoms should be here on the 7th, until then Tony's record will hold:D

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The technology game is funny in how it works:-

Sometimes US gets it all while no one else does (Wolfdale/Yorkfield/Skulltrail)
At other times EU gets it all while no one else does
Yet other times, Asia gets it all while no one else does
And yet other times where two of them may get them all whilst no one else does.

All being cheaper price and early ample availability. :D

For Phenom B2, US/CAN had it all, EU was late and higher priced.
But for Phenom B3, the exact reverse has happened. Our supply is ample with good price already but I personally know US supply will not be much until 14-18 April, like this.
Some NA area's will start rolling with supply on 8th April though.

Good luck with your setup. You would already know that I'm not bothered about speed contests ;)

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Originally Posted by aGeoM

KTE You should try the A7376ACI.103 if you got the time, PCIe frequency adjustable in bios, correct TBL fix on the 4 cores, OCed fine the 9600, no NB multi :( , but was stable to the point that I sold the system to a old time friend. I didn't tested with my 9500, overall was a good bios.
My preferred bios was P0D, good loving I got from that one, with the help of RW-Everything.

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Thanks, I'll give it a try ;)

Before you ask, this is mine=>

http://picsorban.com/upload/dsc02148.png

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Originally Posted by KTE

Thanks Mathos, that's what I have. ;)
Np... blue bow tie?

Oh that one! Well... you know.... threw it in the bin where it belonged :p: :D

Don't you know I dress shirtless? :cool:

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AMD Beef Cake:rofl: now you need to wear the Bow Tie for sure:D

Nice one KTE! :)

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Originally Posted by KTE

Before you ask, this is mine=>

http://picsorban.com/upload/dsc02148.png

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I wants it.....my prrrreciouss tricksy hobits's

Unfortunately I gotta wait for my tax return for that, either that or that supposed $600 rebate check. May end up selling the 9600BE on Ebay to see if I can recover some of that money, at least I can guarantee that I could get it to run 2.6ghz by 2.4ghz so that might make someone happy that didn't care about the TLB stuff.

Nice... real nice... hey... man... comeback..., don't be afraid, we will not hurt you... I know... I know poor Tony... :rofl:

:up:

sweet... :up: