Confirmed: Feser 1 Blue Premix + GTZ = do NOT want

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Linus@ncix

Primoflex LRT has biocide lining the tubing walls. There is no need to add PT_NUKE or silver.

My loop has been running over a year with distilled + Primoflex LRT and the water in my res is still clear (and so is my res for that matter).

It works as advertised. Every extra thing you add to your loop is just asking for trouble.

---

Yup I have noticed that as well with the Primo LRT black. Just used distilled and no additives. However the tubes insides still turn white no matter what the tubing or what water treatment. That part is still a mystery to me.

I've been running Feser One Blue and Feser One Red on two loops in my machine and I have yet to encounter any problems whatsoever. The machine has been either gaming or folding 24/7 for 6+ months and everything is still clean as a whistle. I wonder how well a lot of these people cleaned their radiators and parts before they put the system together. I read this thread and many others like it for weeks before I redid my loops and settled on the Feser fluid. My conclusion? dirty parts are putting gunk into the loops and the water blocks are just filtering it out.

The only coolant I've seen problems with is with PC Ice and those terrible dye bombs. I had an old bottle of premix PC Ice for YEARS and the dye never came out of solution. Had one bottle with a blue dye bomb and it settled out within a week. Now it just sits in my closet with all the dye at the bottom.

Of course, your mileage may (and will) vary, and this is just my experience, but I wanted to weigh in on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Linus@ncix

Primoflex LRT has biocide lining the tubing walls. There is no need to add PT_NUKE or silver.

My loop has been running over a year with distilled + Primoflex LRT and the water in my res is still clear (and so is my res for that matter).

It works as advertised. Every extra thing you add to your loop is just asking for trouble.

---

Hi Linus! Got a question for you, I am going to use the Primoflex LRT tubing in my loop with distilled water. But my Feser rads say that my warranty is void if I use distilled water because it doesn't have a corrosion blocker. Now my 480 Feser came with a corrosion blocker solution.

Would it be ok to use the water blocks and rads after flushing with distilled water and then add this whole bottle of corrosion blocker with distilled water?

I don't want to mess this up, any help would be great!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackvette94

Hi Linus! Got a question for you, I am going to use the Primoflex LRT tubing in my loop with distilled water. But my Feser rads say that my warranty is void if I use distilled water because it doesn't have a corrosion blocker. Now my 480 Feser came with a corrosion blocker solution.

Would it be ok to use the water blocks and rads after flushing with distilled water and then add this whole bottle of corrosion blocker with distilled water?

I don't want to mess this up, any help would be great!!

---

Corrosion is only a problem when you are using aluminum in a loop with copper/brass. That crap you got with the rad is just under 70% ethylene glycol. On top of the "nasty stuff" in the link, it also hurts thermal transfer to the water due to a much lower thermal capacity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Corrosion is only a problem when you are using aluminum in a loop with copper/brass. That crap you got with the rad is just under 70% ethylene glycol. On top of the "nasty stuff" in the link, it also hurts thermal transfer to the water due to a much lower thermal capacity.

---

Ah, so in other words I don't need to use the Feser corrosion crap right ? :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackvette94

Ah, so in other words I don't need to use the Feser corrosion crap right ? :P

---

Chances are very high that you don't as most all blocks and rads are copper, nickel, or brass. :)

is the problem just with feser coolants

is the Aquatuning Protect UV Blue safe to use or should i just go distilled

Owned666?

Yep, distilled is best. Any dye stuff can give you issues. Moe often than not experianced watercoolers use distilled for ease of use. Some custom builders that always rebuild etc use colored stuff, but they know the pitfalls and accept the fact.

It's up to you.

Destiled Water + Silver KillCoil FTW! :

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3456/img1032d.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1911/img1034.jpg

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/9953/imgci.jpg

:up:

Hi, I recently finished my first WC build. I was using Feser UV dye additive to my distilled water + PTnuke PHN but after reading this thread I drained my loop and refilled it with just distilled + PTnuke. I really liked the look of the UV dye but I guess I'll just replace the tubing with some UV tubing later on instead. Anyways, do you think I need to take apart my loop and clean the various parts out to get any remaining dye out? Or would the small residual amount not be a concern? I have a Apogee XT cpu block and a MCR-320 rad in my loop with a D5 pump and a microres. I notice that there does seem to be some uv-reactive film in my reservoir where the top level of water used to sit and I wonder if there may be more of that stuff in my cpu block or rad.

distilled water, one of the best and cheapest cooling coolants
//but I thought feser is specialized in coolant?!

you are damnly right, they are specialized in coolant, which damage our water cooling systems, like fotos show! Strange thing is, there are still some shops selling their liquid!

Ive had my Faser One UV Red (Premix) coolant in my loop for 6 months. Took it apart yesterday without any signs of gunkg in my blocks :/

I have use both, distilled in two of my rigs and F1 in other two, one of them is folding. Still can't make them gunk. I think the problem is with mixing with other coolants or additives (which I don't do) and proper loop maintenance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwQDLeCz9FI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rheydt

you are damnly right, they are specialized in coolant, which damage our water cooling systems, like fotos show! Strange thing is, there are still some shops selling their liquid!

---

I've been using Feser all my watercooling life (over 8 years) with ZERO issues whatsoever. One of my loops lasted 3 years and only showed minor degradation (some sort of algae?) when i took it apart - It was still working perfectly anyway. Go figure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dazmode

I have use both, distilled in two of my rigs and F1 in other two, one of them is folding. Still can't make them gunk. I think the problem is with mixing with other coolants or additives (which I don't do) and proper loop maintenance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwQDLeCz9FI

---

Valid point. Thanks for the video.

6 month test on the EK Supreme HF..Hmmm How long has the HF been around now? Has 6 months gone by already? Just asking as I honestly do not know. Time flies when you get old you know...:yepp:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sadasius

6 month test on the EK Supreme HF..Hmmm How long has the HF been around now? Has 6 months gone by already? Just asking as I honestly do not know. Time flies when you get old you know...:yepp:

---

Not HF, Supreme Classic :)

Ah okay...Oh and BTW Dazmode...Love that HF block I bought from you! Cannot be happier! :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaMcO

I've been using Feser all my watercooling life (over 8 years) with ZERO issues whatsoever. One of my loops lasted 3 years and only showed minor degradation (some sort of algae?) when i took it apart - It was still working perfectly anyway. Go figure.

---

You sure about this? I don't recall ever hearing of Fester until about 3 years ago and I've been water cooling since '03. The date on their site also seems to confirm the 3yr thing as well. Judging by your prior posts involving Fester, this post looks pretty much like a broken record. It also looks like your trying to do "damage control" for Fester which, in my book at least, warrants me shouting "SHILL".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dazmode

Not HF, Supreme Classic :)

---

Great to see you here Daz!!! On my 5870 with the EK FC block I got from you right now :) Idles at 22c ;)

How do I take apart the GTZ for cleaning. I took the 4 screws around it out and thats just for the hold down plates?? it's been on a distilled + silver coil loop for over a year and I'm about to readd it to my loop. Any advice on cleaning, or rinsing? i guess I don't need to take it apart. Looks clean inside but I'd like to rinse it. Whats the best idea and way.

thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xguntherc

How do I take apart the GTZ for cleaning. I took the 4 screws around it out and thats just for the hold down plates?? it's been on a distilled + silver coil loop for over a year and I'm about to readd it to my loop. Any advice on cleaning, or rinsing? i guess I don't need to take it apart. Looks clean inside but I'd like to rinse it. Whats the best idea and way.

thanks!

---

That should be all you need to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waterlogged

You sure about this? I don't recall ever hearing of Fester until about 3 years ago and I've been water cooling since '03. The date on their site also seems to confirm the 3yr thing as well. Judging by your prior posts involving Fester, this post looks pretty much like a broken record. It also looks like your trying to do "damage control" for Fester which, in my book at least, warrants me shouting "SHILL".

---

My guess is i used something similar prior to that and don't even recall. I have been watercooling for as long as you and never had an issue with any coolant until today. I'm sorry for my mistake on the dates.

I don't have anything to do with FESER nor do i want to protect them in any way but the truth is i never had any problems with them, it's weird that so many people do. Think what you will, i'll keep using FESER as it's good and it does the job well done until something else worthwhile appears and makes me change :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaMcO

My guess is i used something similar prior to that and don't even recall. I have been watercooling for as long as you and never had an issue with any coolant until today. I'm sorry for my mistake on the dates.

I don't have anything to do with FESER nor do i want to protect them in any way but the truth is i never had any problems with them, it's weird that so many people do. Think what you will, i'll keep using FESER as it's good and it does the job well done until something else worthwhile appears and makes me change :shrug:

---

For what its worth, I'm in the same boat as NaMcO.

I've been using Feser One coolant for 3 years and have never had any problems with it; other than maybe the "black" not being black nor the "red" not being red. I just did an upgrade on a two year old machine running the UV green and was very impressed to see no residue in the blocks - even the Tygon tubing was still perfectly clear!

I don't know what conditions would cause the problems folks are having but until I see anything lumpy myself, I'll continue using it - for blue and green themes anyway. ;)

Oh, i is not a Shill. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Linus@ncix

Primoflex LRT has biocide lining the tubing walls. There is no need to add PT_NUKE or silver.

My loop has been running over a year with distilled + Primoflex LRT and the water in my res is still clear (and so is my res for that matter).

It works as advertised. Every extra thing you add to your loop is just asking for trouble.

---

how do you know this for sure?

i have the same tubing and yes you are right about everything being clear but i just thought it was the use of distilled water, i also have silver in my loop...

thanks for the info!

So the 4 screws in the middle that go through the copper block are all you need to unscrew then the block comes apart. I did that but it's tight as can be.. do I just need to pull harder?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by evoted

how do you know this for sure?

i have the same tubing and yes you are right about everything being clear but i just thought it was the use of distilled water, i also have silver in my loop...

thanks for the info!

---

Primochill says so in the product description.

Quote:

---

PrimoFlex Pro LRT is designed and manufactured to exacting standards for today’s high performance PC water cooling systems. Low Radius Technology allows for tighter bends without the kinking that can cause cooling failures or reduce performance. Our special Anti-Microbial formula helps keep your cooling loop pristine—which keeps flow rates up, reduces maintenance, and just flat out looks better.

PrimoFlex Pro LRT wouldn’t be the choice of pro modders and high performance water coolers if it also didn’t have killer looks and excellent sub zero performance. Available in an ever increasing range of UV colors as well as Clear, PrimoFlex Pro LRT stays flexible even when subjected to the lowest temperatures.

Our proprietary blend of extremely low durometer PVC (polyvinyl chloride) and a more rigid polymer resin gives PrimoFlex Pro LRT its unbeatable bend ratio and durability. Even under exacting laboratory set-ups with abrupt small radius bends and multiple direction changes, PrimoFlex PRO LRT tubing resists twisting and collapse—a common problem when using other lesser brands.

---

Sorry to keep this beast kicking but check out this awesome dye gone wrong mess:

Quote:

---

Here's a Swiftech GTX CPU water block that has a non-copper/soft metal in the top that has been reacting with chemicals in the fluid from mixing dyes.
The gunk:
http://imgur.com/ZFFCx.jpg
The dye alone (covering the pins) would have annoyed me without the gunk:
http://imgur.com/PRtiu.jpg
With some of the gunk scratched away: north myrtle beach hotels|miami hotel
http://imgur.com/AHVPo.jpg
With the gunk gone you can see how it was using the metal in the water block as some sort of catalyst eating it as it went:
http://imgur.com/xEifB.jpg
Coolant used: PrimoChill Ice Clear
Dye used: PrimoChill DyeBomb UV Blue (Approx. 1ml due to container breaking)
Re-Fresh Dye used: Feser View UV Blue (Approx. 10ml)

---

Wicked eh? I suggested he come share but I guess he didn't get the link?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamTHorn

Sorry to keep this beast kicking but check out this awesome dye gone wrong mess:

Wicked eh? I suggested he come share but I guess he didn't get the link?

---

I thought this is actually caused by a reaction between aluminium used by the GTX and copper.

Phil

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philwong

I thought this is actually caused by a reaction between aluminium used by the GTX and copper.

Phil

---

It is.

Wow.. Those pictures are going to make me have nightmares.....:shocked:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Section8

Wow.. Those pictures are going to make me have nightmares.....:shocked:

---

ive had worse..

A lot worse...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

ive had worse..

A lot worse...

---

Man I feel for you guys. I am glad I have never had to deal with such a mess. I feel for you guys. Hopefully the OP gets it all cleaned up and doesn't suffer any prolonged effects from that mess.

That is plain nasty......

However there is some good news, I just saved a bunch of cash changing my insurance to Geiko....JK...

At least the OP's nails are nice and clean......

Makes me think about the Primo Chill I have in my loop.......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Section8

Man I feel for you guys. I am glad I have never had to deal with such a mess. I feel for you guys. Hopefully the OP gets it all cleaned up and doesn't suffer any prolonged effects from that mess.

---

Fluid XP.

The original was notorious for leaving a waxy residue everywhere.

And not its not a simple film, but a thick wax coat.

Needless to say... many many many hours in with my radiator + rubbing alcohol + rad flush was required to get rid of all that nasty stuff.

really makes me wonder is this just cause off mixing feser with other stuff if so with what did op mix it with ?.

Im running Feser one UV blue right now :eek:, Im going to disassemble both my loops soon and attempt to open my cpu-350 (last time i tried i couldn't open it)

Dam guys thats some nasty stuff, I was using the feser uv blood red for a week but didnt wanna take the chance even with PT nuke so i ended up using distilled + Utopia which is basically the same as PT nuke.. @Naekuh u got pics dude? sounds interesting :D

Any updates for the effect of Feser 1 UV dye? Because I'm going to use Feser 1 for my dual loop and don't want to see many gunks around wc parts :eek:

Get coloured tubing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zer0kewl

really makes me wonder is this just cause off mixing feser with other stuff if so with what did op mix it with ?.

---

I'm fairly positive that SNiiPE didn't mix anything else in with it. He also isn't the only one having the problem so it's not an isolated incident.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnny87au

Dam guys thats some nasty stuff, I was using the feser uv blood red for a week but didnt wanna take the chance even with PT nuke so i ended up using distilled + Utopia which is basically the same as PT nuke.. @Naekuh u got pics dude? sounds interesting :D

---

You may want to reconsider using that crap too. It has some form of surfactant (such as Water Wetter), which we stopped using a long time ago as it didn't have any positive impact on the system and long term use showed a slimy buildup on components that was difficult to remove and hurt temps.

why not do distilled + a bit of propylene glycol? I have unlike metals in my loop... so without a softener, galvanic corrosion would eat through my rad, in due time.

E: actually, whatever because that's what i've been doing for years and never had problems. *shrug*

E2: it's cheap too, you can just buy the green antifreeze. that's what it basically is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ggdh

Get coloured tubing.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iddqd

why not do distilled + a bit of propylene glycol?

---

This combination is the ABSOLUTE best there is! I'm surprised people still haven't learned :shakes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iddqd

why not do distilled + a bit of propylene glycol? I have unlike metals in my loop... so without a softener, galvanic corrosion would eat through my rad, in due time.

E: actually, whatever because that's what i've been doing for years and never had problems. *shrug*

E2: it's cheap too, you can just buy the green antifreeze. that's what it basically is.

---

Mixed metals such as?

Mixing copper, chrome, nickel, brass, and gold is okay. You won't get corrosion.

If you have aluminum, that's a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by madmaxx

This combination is the ABSOLUTE best there is! I'm surprised people still haven't learned :shakes:

---

Hi!

How is it an absolute best? In temps vs distilled?

Btw, something about the stuff.

http://www.naturalnews.com/023138_pr...od_health.html

Also, mixing all the metals are fine except for AL as Polizei has mentioned.

Wes

so getting any kind off corosion is just imposible without corosion protection like when you got copper rad some nickel + bras fittings etc.

cous i'm thinking about going demi + killcoil atm ;P

Distilled+glycol if you have mixed metals

Distilled+silver(killcoil) if you dont have mixed metals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zer0kewl

so getting any kind off corosion is just imposible without corosion protection like when you got copper rad some nickel + bras fittings etc.

cous i'm thinking about going demi + killcoil atm ;P

---

Yes you wont get corrosion if you have stuff like copper, nickel or brass. Just stay away from aluminum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waterlogged

I'm fairly positive that SNiiPE didn't mix anything else in with it. He also isn't the only one having the problem so it's not an isolated incident.



You may want to reconsider using that crap too. It has some form of surfactant (such as Water Wetter), which we stopped using a long time ago as it didn't have any positive impact on the system and long term use showed a slimy buildup on components that was difficult to remove and hurt temps.

---

oh you serious? the store i got it from recommended me it, You think just stick with PT nuke yeah?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by madmaxx

This combination is the ABSOLUTE best there is! I'm surprised people still haven't learned :shakes:

---

Glycol is toxic, and reduces the efficiency somewhat. It's not as much antimicrobial as silver or copper. And since it's an alcohol, it destroys acrylic and generally doesnt play well with plastics (even tubing not meant for it).
Unless you need its antifreeze properties (in which case you know what you are doing playing with a chiller) it's not a good solution for room temperature pc watercooling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elpy

Distilled+glycol if you have mixed metals

Distilled+silver(killcoil) if you dont have mixed metals.

Yes you wont get corrosion if you have stuff like copper, nickel or brass. Just stay away from aluminum.

---

so wich would i need for having nickel copper bras ?

distilled + glycol ?
or distilled + killcoil ?

If you haven't aluminium in loop (and as you mentioned - all your components are nickel/copper/brass/stainless steel), any coolant will do, as you don't need to care about corrosion. What i can advise - distilled with something to prevent algae growth. For example - killcoil or few drops of some biocide (eg. PHN copper). Glycol sounds like some antifreeze? No need for that (see above). It will just worsen thermal transfer properties of coolant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by churchy

If you haven't aluminium in loop (and as you mentioned - all your components are nickel/copper/brass/stainless steel), any coolant will do, as you don't need to care about corrosion. What i can advise - distilled with something to prevent algae growth. For example - killcoil or few drops of some biocide (eg. PHN copper). Glycol sounds like some antifreeze? No need for that (see above). It will just worsen thermal transfer properties of coolant.

---

Although I'm not sure about this, I remember reading something about glycol and a gunky buildup being related, or something like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnny87au

oh you serious? the store i got it from recommended me it, You think just stick with PT nuke yeah?

---

It's in the product description.

Quote:

---

Protection? Protect me from what?.... Well most people are not aware until it is too late, but little micro organisms love to water cool as much as you do! Usually it is too late to do anything but drain your system, do a massive cleaning and start all over again. But hopefully this time you will use PrimoChill's latest water cooling fluid innovation, Liquid Utopia.

Liquid Utopia is designed for PRO users wanting minimal additive in their cooling loop of De-ionized Water or Distilled Water***. It offers a full line of protection against algae and corrosion when adding to your new or existing cooling loops*. The proprietary blend of ingredients used in PrimoChill's Liquid Utopia are specially formulated to provide a broad-spectrum antimicrobial agent, capable of eliminating and maintaining the microbiological growth found in closed loop water cooling systems.

Liquid Utopia also boasts "PLT" (preventive layer technology), which used on a clean install will help protect your system well into the future. Liquid Utopia has also been formulated to protect ferrous and non-ferrous metals from corrosion, which is especially important in today's higher performance mixed metals water cooling systems.

---

The "PLT" sounds like it forms some sort of layer on your parts to protect against any microbes from making a home. The thing is, we've seen in the past where things that leave "layers" tend to stay there and need extra work to get rid of them, if you don't, they'll build up and create a layer that doesn't transfer heat to well and there go your temps.

Hmm my coolant is still blue, ill see what damage (if any) has been done to my system, i know it left horrible blue marks on my table. that primochill stuff looks good

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waterlogged

It's in the product description.



The "PLT" sounds like it forms some sort of layer on your parts to protect against any microbes from making a home. The thing is, we've seen in the past where things that leave "layers" tend to stay there and need extra work to get rid of them, if you don't, they'll build up and create a layer that doesn't transfer heat to well and there go your temps.

---

Yeah, I don't like the sound of that layer stuff. Stick with a killcoil or PTNuke.

That term "layer" seems like marketing jargon referring to nothing more than a wetting agent. Best results are straight distilled, distilled with kill coil/PT Nuke and if you want color, LRT tubing.

finaly decided to ditch colored crap asswell.
i had a gunk in my ek supreme HF full nickel after 1 month or less usage.

flow dropped from 3 liter per min or even 3,1 liter per min to 2,5 2,6 liter per min sudenly.

now if pre ordered colored tubing and new reservoir while at it.

still running fine with koolance blocks

anyone expriences with thermochil ec6 clear uv coolant ?

and no i dont got uv dye's in it just the clear bottle off water so my guess i should't worry about any kind off gunk or some sort thats caused by uv dye's ?

reason i'm asking cous it say's clear uv on bottle makes me wonder does it have a uv dye in it or does it just mean its good to use with uv dye's cous i dont care about that.

wow. guys hope I don't have the same problem as you guys as I bought feaser before reading this for my 24/7 liquid cooling of my i7 950 CPU with DD-MCP water block. I will report back soon. I just hope it'll last longer than 8 months. :)

Not to resurrect an old thread, but

I just looked at my res today and notice white stringy flakes in it. I flushed the cooling system completely couple of weeks ago as I was adding evga gtx 580 hydrocopper 2 to my system. I am using fesser one clear UV coolant, been using it for over a year before. Not sure what those flakes are... As far as I know evga uses swiftech waterblock for their gtx 580s. Is there a chance of a reaction between new card and my cpu waterblock Heatkiller 3.0? Or my rads? Algae growth?
I am afraid that I would need to disassemble my new gtx 580 to clean it now, is there a way to flush it??? Should I just refill it after I flush it with same fesser one fluid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davit

Not to resurrect an old thread, but

---

Wow this is a flashback.

Yeah. Probably should have made a new thread. Sounds like you're having classic dye problems, not reactions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zer0kewl

anyone expriences with thermochil ec6 clear uv coolant ?

and no i dont got uv dye's in it just the clear bottle off water so my guess i should't worry about any kind off gunk or some sort thats caused by uv dye's ?

reason i'm asking cous it say's clear uv on bottle makes me wonder does it have a uv dye in it or does it just mean its good to use with uv dye's cous i dont care about that.

---

yes ec6 blue since summer '10. drained and refilled loop with same bottle 3 times now, no residue in blocks and only minimal tube clouding so far :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vinas

Wow this is a flashback.

Yeah. Probably should have made a new thread. Sounds like you're having classic dye problems, not reactions.

---

My apologies,
Stumbled upon this through Google.
Thank you for your reply though. I'll get to flushing.

i been running feser dye for a year with out anything clogging, maybe because i flush my system every 3 months?

If you flush every three months, you're not running the same fluid for over a year ;)

Here is my Feser One F1 UV Blue Experience

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

snipe id give a good 15 min boil in vinger + salt.

---

+1

Yeah buddy, vinegar and salt = back to new.

Guy's years ago I bought a bottle of Midnight Blue Fluid XP ULTRA. It's the kind that is concentrated and I mix it 1 part with 3-4 parts distilled. I've used it in prolly 5 different loops, and I have never once had any build-up, corrosion, color fade, or algae. Also It only very very slightly stains the tubing.

To bad you can't get the ULTRA anymore:(