If i wanted a fan on my wb i would have stayed with aircooling... :p:
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If i wanted a fan on my wb i would have stayed with aircooling... :p:
Very interesting concept, Nateman. Keep up the good work!
I have been following this thread (and Skinnee's GTX 480 block roundup thread) while in the peaceful embrace of vacation, and, I must say that this thread has kept me on the edge of my seat!
I would love to see more testing with a few other blocks and your very own with some consistent results. Also, why not send a few of your prototypes off to Skinnee, Vapor, and other testers here and on other forums that are willing to help you test?
Someone brought up a thought that the fin area would only be comparable to a 0.5x120mm radiator. Why not combine the idea of a full-sized air cooler (TRUE/Megahalems, etc) with a waterblock on the bottom? Just throwing that one out there, sir!
Stay strong, keep up the good work, and continue to improve this very interesting and POSSIBLY ground-breaking waterblock!
UrbanSmooth: Big full-sized air coolers manage to drive heat far enough from cooled component by using smart gimmickry, heatpipes and stuff. Trying to make such from scratch or trying to solder ones from existing air cooler to this waterblock base should be very hard to do. Adding another 1x120 rad to loop is by two orders simplier. It's also simplier to plan out airflow if you have to take into account only rads, but not yet another thing you have to route air to. Let me repeat - increasing cooling by adding rads is 100x easier and what's LC about. While it's possible to make such hybrid solutions and with major PITA make air-cooler part be more effective, and while this is unusual idea and, at the end it's just that, plaything & waste of time on less effective subpar solutions.
so when is the block going off to skinnee or vapour
Cool response, bro. Let's see what Nateman thinks about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
I'm thinking more of a hybrid fin/waterblock design, with the inlet/outlet holes going down the center, surrounded by the fins, if possible. Sure, it wouldn't be as big as a full-sized air-cooler, but, perhaps something bigger than his current setup (more fins).
Invalid data, looking at the thread on evga it seems ambiant temps are altered between the two setups to heavily favor his block is my diagnosis.
In July I will show you my new Intel chip (12 thread) that can OC to 4ghz on passive sink.
Now I look at mine and this makes me feel bad :( :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by FUGGER
its a sub 60W gulfy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacky
6c/12t.
Unless charles your gonna preview a new 12 core. :shrug:
Hey guys - let nateman handle discussions with skinnee. This isn't a commercial product and isn't ready for prime time, so probably not something high on skinnee lab's agenda at this time.
@ Fugger - nateman_doo addressed the fact that he now sees something's wrong with his data and said earlier he shouln't have gone public with it yet. And - to be fair, he's not the one that posted it here.
different strokes for different folks :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBar
Wow. :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by churchy
...A subpar waste of time plaything...
I have no response for you. I really just don't have one for you. :shrug:
maybe later I will, but now im not even going to bother.
Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111 11111Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
How about we get a thread kappa to monitor things and keep the wc in check?
Hey, Nate, did you see my post?
nateman_doo: BUT! You can use that 'unused' space above cpu waterblock for mounting some rad there aswell. Even if not 1x120, but there are smaller ones too, eg. HWLabs' single or dual 80 or 92 fan rads. And even those will have more fin area then your conceptual waterblock. And they are leaps and bounds easier to add to existing loop then making fins from piece of copper for 99.99% of average LC joes out there. Buy rad with two fittings, connect to loop, put fan on it. The End. Now with going your route it's a very tiny little bit :) more difficult, getting fitting for the job big piece of copper, quality tools, skills to use them .. and all those fins are extra/bonus, what sense in making good air cooled part, if main liquid cooling function of block performs worse then top blocks out there? Then all you get - hybrid block that performs better then stock water blocks only when they are in artificially handicapped situation (read - inadequate rad area/and little heat to dissipate at stock clock, resulting even little help from those aircooling fins helping seemingly so much).
Nate - It would be nice for the water to not boil when a pump went out but I'd like to see some screen shots where the ambient temp is the same and where the blocks aren't rad limited to see what best case would be for both blocks in your testing. I can see why you wanted to test with such little rad surface area, it's what your block is optimized for. I would like to see similar testing where neither block has an optimized setup (i.e. not rad limited) for the max performance of the two blocks side by side. If I was going to buy something like this I wouldn't buy it based on worst case scenario since I don't care about worst case as long as it isn't going to mess my system up.
But that's just me...
Props on being creative with skillz I don't possess :up:
Hopefully this will calm the thread down some (though both FUGGER and I are guilty of adding fuel to the fire :eh:): things are in motion for me to formally test this block :cool:
It'll go up against the HK3.0 LT, cuplex kryos XT, Supreme HF P1, Apogee GT (yes, the old one) and the results will be comparable to all the later results from my Roundup #3. I plan to test it with no fan, fan at half speed, and fan at full speed, and will be able to quantify just how much the block's radiator is dissipating. I'll also, hopefully, get some runs done on the TRUE Copper, if it can tame this chip at these settings.
Good to hear, Vapor.
I've deleted a couple more posts - we'll be looking at infraction points if there's any more generalization about other forums (God, I sound like my Mother - wait, I think I am my Mother...)
Keep your debate constructive - better yet, everybody can calm down and let's see what the next series of tests show.
good job nateman
Glad to see that things are calming down in this thread. I'm happy Auntie Shaz stepped in :) but it shouldn't have come to that. For the most part most of us here are adults and young adults and should know better then to act in this manner.
I'm looking forward to the results from Vapor and to see how they match up against the listed CPU blocks. I think Nate's design is innovative and I was always wondering why companies have never thought about adding fins to the blocks to help with heat dissipation before. I don't know much about deltas, and pressure drops and such but I can't see having fins and active air cooling on a CPU block being bad.
FWIW, I tried making a couple of custom waterblock with larger than your average cooling fin area. It seems to be a common thinking from a lot of folks that go from air cooling to water cooling that huge surface areas within the waterblock are key to improving current designs. Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way because of the huge difference between water and air thermally. First there is the 30X or so difference in thermal conductivity or ability to remove heat. Then there is the volumetric heat capacity differences which is on opposite ends of the spectrum.
It's these two water vs. air property differences that pretty much makes anything but the base of the waterblock completely irrelevant from a CPU>Water heat exchange.
I've tried making different tops for old waterblocks and have also tried making air cooler like waterblocks. At least for my failed ideas, nothing seemed to help outside of nozzles and fine microchannel/pin type matrixes right at the core heat exchange area. Thicker bases were often worse, and copper tops didn't do anything for thermal performance.
The only advantage I can see in an air cooled waterblock is the actual benefit of heatexchange on the coolant (Water>air delta). This same or greater benefit could be achived by an additional radiator of the same or greater size. Anyhow, I don't discount test results...never do until I've tested something for myself, I just see it's hard to compare since there is a difference in water>air heat exchange from the two testing scenarios. This is not all that different than testing one waterblock with a 220 rad, and another with a 320 sized radiator just that one is integrated into the block.
Going to be tough to make any sort of comparison here...
Interesting idea, have you thought about ditching the fins and having a flat surface where you can attach any heatsink on top of it?
Which one?Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth
Martin!!!! It's about time you chimed in...;) Glad you did and I'm happy to see this block being sent off to some reputable testers.
I'm pretty sure what the outcome will be but I'll wait to see the official results. If, for some reason, this turns out to be a valid design then imagine the gain you would see by stacking a wb onto a wb in separate loops. :cool:
What do you think the outcome will be?
it would be interesting to see if you could make basically the same block except have no fins & no fan. then compare it to the one with the fins & fan to see if it can improve the block. comparing 2 different waterblocks (this & hk) will tell you what one of the 2 is better but it wont tell you how much of a gain you get from adding the fins & fan. get what im sayin? like the hk might do better because it has a flatter base & the microchannels etc. but that doesnt mean the fins & fan didnt improve the cooling capability of the block.
I think the outcome will be that we'll all be glad to see some independent test results done. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
Nateman, from a thermaldynamic way of looking at it, i'm a little skeptical of your results. but to me, i could care less if this actually worked or not. what's important here is that you're very innovative and this opened up many doors to more designs. for the last few years, all the CPU cooling products (air cooler or water block) has pretty much already hit the design limitation, and the only improvements are from optimization for only a fraction of a degree improvement. i applaud you for coming up with this :clap:. if you can, i would try to protect your ideas before some shady company steals it, mass produce a more optimized form of it, and cash in on this.
now if you really do care about the results as much as the design, then send the block to Cam (skinnee) or Vapor so they can test, although it looks like this is already in motion (thanks Vapor!).
ah the watercooling legend speaks! great to see you still check up on these forums once in a while martin :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
That isn't a bad analogy at all. Testing 2 blocks, 1 has a triple rad, and the other has a double. Unfair advantage to the triple rad right? The simplicity is its strongest point. It will always have a built in advantage to remove more heat. Its not hard to compare at all. One waterblock vs another. each block has the same number of radiators in the loop. Just like when skinnee tests blocks, he doesn't give advantages to other blocks because one is better in one area then others. The "built in radiator" is the advantage. I think some people are focusing on the "block" portion instead of the entire cooling system which is the block and fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
If the block has a "built in radiator" why not use the fan? Who doesn't use a fan on their radiator? When people have been asking to test it without the fan (which Vapor will do because everyone is dying to know), its like testing a V8 on only 4 cylinders just to be equal to the rest. This block was fundamentally designed to be used with a fan and to have that inherent advantage other water blocks which do not have fans.
When the 6 core chips came out, why didn't people disable the extra 2 cores to equal all the rest of the quad cores? Then you would be just like all the other people with quad cores. The people bought 6 cores because they wanted more.
Lets assume a user likes a whisper quiet system, you can disable the fan. Now for sake of argument lets say the block with no fan does pretty close to the HK system, either a little better or a little worst. Now that same person gets the urge to start benchmarking. All that user has to do is enable the fan to full blast, and you have just increased your ability to remove heat.
nice concept nate, it's refreshing to see new ideas.
be careful, someone might stole the idea if the test were true :D
I may be wrong here but I don't see anyone asking you to remove the fins and fan to hinder your block. From what I saw people just want to know how the base of your block performs against the HK, more specifically how much the fins and fan help your design when the system isn't rad limited :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
I'm curious about the same thing, how much your results may be affected by the actual fins/fan on top of your block vs how much heat the water is actually removing. Since I've never seen another water block with a fan on it I'll be interested to see the results that come out of this.
I agree, its just one of those hybrid items that doing more than your typical block including noise. The argument that will surface is for folks that think the noise difference is apples to oranges. We are simply used to comparing blocks using the same heat exchange level AND noise level. I don't really know what's right or wrong...just something new that hasn't been compared before. You might test as you have done and/or you might try comparing at an equal noise level too?Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
Off to the lab.
I wish I had more time. I already have ideas on how to improve and would have liked to send an improved model out, so just think of this as the base model. It only gets better.
Attachment 105842
This is the actual block that I tested. Same everything.
I reckon you saw the 10c difference due to a couple of factors -
First the lapped base on the HK - the top counteracts the bow in the base when you clamp the block down allowing for a flat fit, by lapping it you make the block slightly convex when mounted at full pressure and reduce contact.
Second you were using a heatloaded system, so were infact reducing the water delta through additional cooling. In a system with a low water>air delta you will get nowhere near the advantage this design gives.
The first bit I believe is totally unintentional, the second part is by intention. This isn't to say I think you skewed your results - you wanted to show what sort of improvement a user could get from your block in the istuation in which it would perform best. Thats just designing to your needs and is totally admirable.
However I really hope people don't slate you when the test results come back from skinneelabs as the test setup there will most definitely not show your block in a favorable light. The test setup they have is designed to show the pure cooling power of a block, and therefore runs with as low a deltaT as possible, in this situation your aircooled fins will give minimal benefit and the more complex and restrictive internals of the likes of the HK, EK and Swiftech blocks will really shine.
Its horses for courses.
I would like to see you repeat your test exactly as it is now but with a different waterblock. Even something like a supreme LT would be fine. Just straight out the box and onto the cpu. That HK is just performing horrifically for stock clocks. Think its a goner man!
For as many people here who's posts have been deleted there are others who think you've done pretty well if you consider what sort of setup this block would actually suit. The only problem I see is that itd be quite expensive due to the pure mass of copper involved. If the heatsink doesnt directly touch the water could you use an aluminium sink to reduce weight and cost? Doubt it would affect temps very much - any reduction of heat absorbtion of the ally would be mostly offset by the greater radiation of heat it gives. Hopefully thats cheered you up a bit, and maybe people will read and take note of the situations in which this type of design would boost performance and when it would not.
Again, well done on the block, major boo-boo on the HK though (which is what's lead to all this flaming). Stock temps should be nowhere near 70c, even Thermaltake can manage that! :lol:
Hows about someone sends him an unused or old block to test against with his current setup? I really do believe that in an H50 type setup (radiator limited) this block could offer significant gains without having to resort to plumbing in extra rads or case modding to fit more rads. In even a mediocre XS setup though we have enough rad to cool several PCs over. Anything over a 2x120 or silent fans on a 3 x 120 I think you'll start to see performance go backwards.
Bit of a pain but I suppose it could get a quick test done at the labs say with a simple 2 x 120 setup against an HK? That would eliminate all doubt and hopefully silence any flames that may arise from a review using the test setup you guys have at skinneelabs...
Why don't you just plunk the same fan on top of the HK... I bet the results would be the same. Of course, if you blow cold air at your block you will reduce the temps... Its not the blocks, its the AIR!
I think that is the point of Nates design...adding air to the WB.
All in all, great concept. The new results will tell the tell but I think it is awesome for someone to be designing something like this in there own basement...let's not forget someone did the exact same think *cough* kingpin*cough* and look at his pots now. What's to say Nate does not revolutionize his design concept and make a better and better air/wb combo?
Nate, seriously, go get a patent for this quickly just to be safe!
LOL. No one has a patent first and foremost because adding fans and external fins to a WB does NOTHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by clo007
Thanks gents. The jury will be deliberating for the next (Insert Vapors timeline here). He will probably do every test for every scenario possible, and said if time permits he could even test it in pure air mode. It seems that shipping the block quieted down the thread to the point it almost went to page 2. This thread never left the top of the forum Monday & Tuesday. It has drawn such a crowd. Many people will be waiting to hear vapors results, but no one more then I.
Thank you clo007. Every great block maker, overclocker, and such all start somewhere. Comparing my humble origins to the likes of kinpins truly a compliment. I appreciate that.
:shakes:Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Maybe... maybe not...
The jury is still out.
No, it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
Oh, it looks like you've tried it before! Gooodie!Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Please do tell.
:down:Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
I'm going to side with Nik on this one. Requiring physical tests does not validate your argument. Most of what is done in science is theoretical and is still correct.Quote:
Oh, it looks like you've tried it before! Gooodie!
Please do tell.
We are talking about basic principles of thermodynamics.
The only way this could improve temperatures so massively is a failure to exchange and/or eliminate heat from the loop.
Options?
Bad thermal change over, that means bad thermal paste; always possible.
Or. The system was just undersized to eliminate the heat applied to the loop.
In that case, the fins and fan are increasing the max exchange; and adding a bigger radiator or higher air movement would result in the same drop.
nate, will you quit posting here till the test are done?
this nonesense seems never ending.
Excellent idea. However, tests are not needed to know I am correct about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnksss
really? correct about what?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
did no one ask for anyones approval. so im not sure what your going on about.
Nateman, could you please comment on differences and similarities between your design and the one from the article:
http://www.overclockers.com/watercoo...safe-solution/
Of course, I'm referring to the idea only.
can that guy and the other guy be located? now that would be a direct comparison..no need to down size for other blocks to play catchup. adding extra radiators and turning off fans and what not.
+1 on that find.
Thermaltake made a hybrid water/air block years ago too. It was pants and a different concept in that 1/4" water tubes were weaved through fins in a tower arrangement after exiting the block.
Believe it was the CL 4005 volcano? Will try a google ;).
EDIT - That was easy, Here she is! What a beauty :lol:
http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/produc...7_image/01.jpg
now the competition blocks are filing in!
that block looks cool!
no fan?
ahh, clicked link and i see the fan.
2 bad that runs crap!Quote:
Originally Posted by PiLsY
I think that Thermaltake cooler is completely different approach in design - there is no thermal conduction between the block and the radiator fins.
Interesting. The article is 9 years old. Really the biggest difference is he clamped on the fan vs, mine is integrated into the waterblock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex707
Another forum member asked if my design could accommodate various other air coolers. If I did that, it would be similar to this. But all and all very similar.
Wow, I remember my ViperV770 card. Playing quake all day. Those were the days.
You want ME to stop posting?? I got dragged into this thread, beat up, kicked & stomped on.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Unless you have a magic crystal ball and you already know the outcome of vapors test, sit back and relax. One of us will be proved wrong soon.
If it is me who is proved wrong then thats fine. I will take my lumps and go back to the drawing board.
I like it. Its like cutting off the ends of heatpipes and pumping water through it. I thought of trying that idea once too. Seems like such a small amount of water is actually going through it though (thin). Its not really sitting in the block all that long to absorb the heat?Quote:
Originally Posted by PiLsY
So if the tests came back positive, my block is still a failure? I don't understand what you mean by tests not validating it.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
I used the same thermal paste for both blocks, so if it was bad thermal paste (can that stuff even go bad?) then both blocks suffered equally and it put my block on top (in the tests)
I am curious if my block fails the tests with considerably more rads in the line, but excels when there are less rad's in the line, is the block still a failure?
We can all agree that if your water pump fails, or you run out of fluid your toast. I can say personally without even hearing Vapors results that my block will run a CPU with no water at all. I know this because I was using it for weeks on air alone.
No matter what the tests say, this block has promise. If it runs well on air alone, how would it be a failure with water pumping through it? :shrug:
Just a reminder that everyone stay calm here - more data is coming, and let's see where that goes.
(and, just so you understand - nikhsub1's posts aren't being deleted, because he has more knowledge about water cooling - and the early days of the hobby - than most of us. He's stated his opinion without making any personal attacks).
I will predict that the test results coming from Vapor won't resolve this for everyone. It may well show that there is no significant improvement in performance when running the block in the "standard CPU waterblock" test configuration - with plenty of radiator and a low delta. Nateman_doo and the supporters of the block will stand by the advantages of a hybrid setup. Let's just keep the debate constructive.
I think most folks have calmed down. You are probably right in regards to the tests not resolving everything for everyone. Some people doubt the design and thats fine.
I am going with the fact that I ran the block for weeks on air alone doing everyday computing and folding, gaming, and at the same time for hours on end without any incident. So I see no reason why water pumping through the block would do any worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
There is no chance for the water to make the cooler perform worse than on air.
Have you noticed one interesting thing from the article I have posted a link to, the heatsink performs better while running in a piggyback fashion with a waterblock with no water in it then without the block at all?
Couldn't tell you why. I am afraid to say anything, but I did some comparative air cooler tests and My block did pretty good. If I go into specifics something tells me it would stir up the hornets nest again.
I think maybe I need to explain what I mean a bit more... nateman - I am not attacking you or your design - I am simply saying that adding a FAN to a well designed water block will do NOTHING to lower the temperature of the CPU die. Sure it well help cool mosfets and capacitors etc, but so will any fan. Now, I know nothing about the internals of your block - If your block is a terrible water block to begin with but a decent air cooler, then sure, adding a fan will likely make a difference as you would be benefiting more from the air more than the water. However - make a custom copper top for the leading water block and add a fan and fins to it and it will make ZERO difference in cooling capacity.
To summarize, if your block performs better with the fan than without, the only thing it proves is that it isn't very good as a water block in the first place.
I hope I was able to clarify what I'm arguing here and please do know I have nothing against you - I applaud those that think outside the box and think of different things - your idea just isn't one of them IMO.
Last bit - I won't comment on the testing results of nateman's block vs. any other block - my argument is not that his is better or worse than another block.
@nikhsub1: from the impression i have got i think that the top of the block is connected directly to the base meaning that the air cooler directly cools the cpu as well as the water
Check out this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICHEESE
yeah, that's just it.
the fan is not to help the block cool faster. it was put there to have dual options. are we seriously not understanding this concept???????????????
you guys are seriously stuck on the fan doing something other than what it was put there for (when in air block mode)
quit trying to push the conversation on the fan, unless your talking about air cooling.
you also have the opportunity to run the fan while water is being pumped through. this is the 3rd option and not the first.
not to mention damn near everyone in here is running extra fans on their boards for something..this one just may happen to help the board as well..cant see that being a negative at all. wether it helps the block or not..was not the first thought going into this project.
shazza:
did he run any test with no water in the radiators and the fans going?
this would be equivalent to what nate was trying to achieve. jjust curious....
lol. No, I didn't run the HK block tests without water, I would have fried my CPU.
I would however run mine in that test, and it would do just fine ;)
talking about your block, buddy....lol
instant fry if you would have done that with any other block...lol
http://www.virtual-hideout.net/revie...-wiu02_big.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth
Look familiar on the cpu block?
:wasntme:
Why do you guys always fight with the VETS on this forum?
Seriously... time and time again, the VETs have always proved they will PWN the living hell out of you in the end.
When a VET challanges you, you only fight him with the help of another VET.
(You even brought in NOL who is a sub zero expert... Nikhsub1, whose advice id trust as my own, and martin...)
You made them come out of hiding almost just to reply to your POST.
Your in trouble Nate... Nol used to be a legend until a mishap, scott is a close to a legend.. and martin defined accurate testing.
If more then 1 VET is after you... your straight up SCREWED on this forum.
Nate... all the VETS on this forum is after you... i am keeping quiet because i feel bad for you having 1 more after you.
Anyhow im going back to sit on my throne in hell, remember im practicing god hood 101...
Because it seems like every one including there granny on this forum is becoming a GOD and totally ignoring physics.
SO i want to join you guys :rofl:
I'm not sure about the reason for posting a photo of this block, it's a completely different concept in comparison to the one this thread is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
The area has been explored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex707
Its been explored since Procooling days.
Infact Eric was asking me the other day which forum it was shown on.
You can probably still find it in this thread somewhere:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=9263
Meh... as i said in the first post on this thread... he's fighting a difference in mediums.
That is whats killer on the block.
And martin even says it again that its a difference of mediums.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
That is why the VIP's in this thread are all saying it wont work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
We can clearly see you have a problem with difference in mediums.
Without the requirement of having to test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Yes, it has, even before Procooling days (I've posted a link to an article from 2001 and there are probably older ones), but the waterblock you've mentioned has no fins on it at all.
I really can't remember whether there was a discussion about HSF-W/B combo on Procooling, the most interesting stuff there IMHO were Cathar's impingement W/Bs.
.
There was HSF + WB discussion on Procooling, not much came from the thread I found though.
Principally, waterblocks need to emphasize the internals. That's where we've made gains for years and that's not going to stop. But we are coming to a limit to how much the material can be manipulated in the fashions we've been doing (not to say a new way to cool won't come out that trumps microchannels/pins).
So looking for gains elsewhere shouldn't be discouraged. skinneelabs is a for-the-community effort, so we're open to testing community creations if we have the time, and in this case I do have the time and all things considered (like calming this thread down), I figured that testing this block would be a good idea. :)
Aside from just raw performance, what I plan to test on nateman's block is: how much 'radiator power' there is; whether it can hold my test CPU at load with the pump off (I doubt a TRUE can, so I wouldn't be surprised if this failed); if it can hold my cpu at idle with the pump off (surely other blocks cannot).
Without knowing the internals, I have no idea what to expect from this block, frankly.
Looks like HK3.0LT tests will finish late tomorrow, nateman's block goes on immediately after :up:
Oh, and I have a theory for nateman's high HK temps. If his E757's near-socket caps are positioned similarly to my E758's, then he could have severe contact issues without 'forcing' it (i.e., shifting the block as far as possible to the side and still pressing against the caps). E758's caps are closer to the socket than the GB boards that were deemed 'incompatible' with the HKs.
Good points, Vapor.
Also, I've added this edit to the first post in this thread:
Before you add a comment to the thread, please read the quoted source in the first post. The point of nateman_doo's waterblock - and a point he emphasizes in the quoted post at EVGA is to make a hybrid block that can work on air and on water. Yes, he does say that his block beats the Heatkiller by 9 degrees - BUT a very important distinction is that he's saying it beats it in HIS setup. He's not saying it will beat the Heatkiller by 9 degrees in all setups. A point of emphasis on this block is the fact that it can reportedly act as a satisfactory heatsink for either air or water cooling. That's what further testing will shed some light on.
Just want to make sure everyone is clear on that before they post their comments.
How am I screwed on this forum, I didn't even post it on here. I don't really know anyone here. I primary post in EVGA. Why are VETS after me? Vets tend to stick up for each other because we know what each has been through. And what does being a veteran have to do with ANYTHING??Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
And what do you mean "after me?" Can you please clarify? What on earth are you talking about? try to keep up. We are just waiting for the results now. Sit down in your throne and please be patient. I am the only one with something to loose from these tests.
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/mem...erail-1953.jpg
God I hope they listen. You have been a voice of reason throughout this ordeal.Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
I don't wanna attract any more "vets" to assassinate me. :shakes:
makes very good sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapor
thank you for this!Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
and i concur with ya!
derailing in progress...
*FACEPALM*
Don't worry, nateman - no one's out to assasinate you. Perhaps a poor choice of words on Naekuh's part - you have to realize these guys fight like cats and dogs with their best friends here on the forum, so please don't take it personally.
The other thing that occurs to me - this is a dedicated "Liquid Cooling" section, so naturally those of us who post here are primarily interested in Liquid Cooling solutions. Yours is clearly a combo or "hybrid" system, so people need to realize that. If it had been linked in the Air-Cooled section, they'd be screaming how the TRUE (or whatever) is all you need ;).
Shazza, as always cool heads prevail.
Here:
http://www.lgbtpov.com/wp-content/up...-get-along.jpg
A cute image. Hopefully this will calm folks down. Now can't we all get along?
Very interesting block. Can't wait to see more results.
You and me both! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisMRT
Hmm... nice block - well crafted.
I don't think it would outperform the top blocks on the market given the same water temperature (meaning I don't think it will produce a lower temperature delta).
- BUT, most people are space-limited, and this solution is STILL relatively compact.
Most of all I'm impressed by your craftsmanship... the idea is quite obvious and has been tossed around before, but your execution is undeniably great, and it serves as evidence that the heatsink CAN act as an additional mini-radiator.
I can't say I wouldn't be interested... I'm jealous :)
Thanks! Glad you like it :)
Just gonna post to wish you the best of luck mate i think you idea is excellent and i hope it works out for you :) ...
Never be put down by comments just take the good points and smile !!!!
Thanks! Excellent philosophy to live by alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by mlwood37
I would say better to support Nateman even if you think his block isnt a good design.
Constructive criticism, pointers and helpful advice would paint all concerned in a better light.
He is trying to do something plenty of others would want to do but dont have the time, money, tools etc to manage it.
Innovation is good isnt it?
Testing might not be as accurate as you guys are used so why not show him how to test more carefully and produce results that stand up to scrutiny.
Vapor's tests will cure that and Nateman will have numbers to play with and a direct comparison to base revisions.
No one gets anything perfect first time and whilst this design has flaws that plenty of folk have pointed out i dont see many of the more knowledgeable members making suggestions on how to improve it or if he scraps it what to do next instead.
From many in this thread it sounds like we know better so dont try.
Well if we are really unlucky there are other people with workshops downing tools and thinking well if thats the response i wont try either.
I reckon its fine to lampoon one of the big companies for getting it wrong, they have full time engineers and quality control people to blame and marketing folks to hide behind.
When a bloke on his own tries something for good or bad try to support him otherwise it isnt a community its a school yard bulling session.
i think whats missing is the requirements for the block, the design goals and the results of them
if he was trying to build a block that performs better than any other by using fans to cool the block, then he will fail because more can be gained by simply using a bigger radiator.
if he is trying to make a block that does not let your 1000$ cpu fry when your 50$ pump fails, then he is on the right track. more effort needs to be put into this and show the current problems and how your design is able to fix and accomplish this goal.
I will disagree based on general computer case room. Unless you go crazy modding and put tons of radiators outside the case, you are still limited to how many you can have. More may be gained by an extra radiator (still pending results), but if you can't fit any more radiators what does one do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
I guess in total I leave it up to the user to find what they need it for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
Either starting on air, then going to water...
in case of pump failure...
lack of radiator space etc... I am sure there are a bunch of scenarios that this block could address. I designed it to be useful for all purposes.
looking at cost, a good waterblock is 40-50$, then yours has 20-40$ more of copper. space should not be much of an issue. if you have an intake and an exhaust, you can put a radiator on both. putting a heatsink on the block in additon to that is just going to heat up the same air more and more. efficiency will be way to low for the extra costs. (think of it as the corsair H50, but 2 of them in a row to mimic intake and exhaust, and then a third in a row for your block heatsink, its best when you have cool air, an each layer gets worse very quickly)Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
also theres the fact that you simply may not be able to beat out the best waterblocks which have dozens of revisions to be optimized for various flow speeds. the original waterblocks (dangerden maze 3 and older) were home made quality and have been surpassed for a decade now. if your goal is to be as good as them (in their test cases) you have ALOT of hard work ahead of you.
my opinion: dont worry about trying to be the best, and worry about offering a realistic option that protects their PC that standard water cooling never could. if your goal is to be the best, then your appearing to only achieve bragging rights. if your goal is to do something unique, then your a revolutionary.
When you say as good as them in "their" test cases, I think PC's don't normally operate under lab conditions. They operate under unique conditions. Every computer has various degrees of heat removal, and I made my block to function in the worst case scenario (which is how I geared my comparison).Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
I personally think that the tests with additional rads should scale up still in favor of my block, but others say that is far from the truth. I don't pretend to know the physics behind it, but I know it works on air alone, so add the same cool water as what another block would get, and it works out in my head. I think the block should be arriving at the skinnee labs as we speak.
Why not build a unique block that is unique & can be the best? Who doesn't enjoy bragging rights? I do it to be unique, and the best.
their conditions meaning a broad range of tests to show where its weak and strong. (temps vs pressure drop, minimum required gpm, curves showing alot of info)Quote:
Originally Posted by nateman_doo
worse case scenario wouldnt be a stock clock and stock volts. my 1055t is using the oem heatsink with the fan connected to a resistor to drop it to about 7v, its lower than stock cooling and stays under 55C
its not about just adding radiators, its where they are placed. you have an open case with the radiators on the outside, which feeds cool air to your heatsink, and to your rads. even if this is the same test as the regular waterblock, its synthetic, not an average case.
some simple physics for you, heat removal is best done at C/W, how many degress the temperature goes up, based on how many watts of heat generated. your block may remove 20W of the 100W generated by the cpu, but if you add more radiators, then your block may only remove 10W, why? cause the copper is letting the heat escape past the base easier when there is only a little amount of heat being removed by the water. depending on how close the contact is between your fins, and the source of the heat, is going to determine greatly, how efficient those extra fins will be. even if your block is only 1" tall, the distance my be alot larger if the heat has to travel around the edge and back to the top block. some internal shots would be nice (havnt looked at your thread in a while, are there new photos up?)
i will bet that your block is only the best when the water flow has come to a near standstill. the physics alone of trying to get the heat around the cavity for the water will greatly reduce the blocks effectiveness compared to a standard heatsink/fan. so in combo with water, it will only be a hair better for 99% of the conditions out there. it will only be better when its a near failure condition.
what i think it would take to perfect this concept:
a small channel of water down the center, leaving plenty of space for heatpipes, 2 on either side (this allows more air cooling support, for a loss in water cooling effiency). the heatpipes would then hold the fins raised up from the base so you can reach under, and so the fins can be wide enough for a 120mm fan without hitting any caps or ram. then to supply a fan that has a built in thermal sensor and knows to speed up when air temps increase.
heh... a 120mm fan would be insane! I have something like you speak of in new revisions, but I would rather see what version 1.0 does before I re-invent the wheel.
(no new photo's up-block should be at skinny labs by now???? :) )
The smartfan has to do for now as far as temp controlled fan. It really works like a charm, I can hear the fan fire up at 59°C and go back to silent once it cooled off the processor in short order.
What are you thinking in terms of fabrication costs for materials, tooling, and machining? Is you intent to sell or are you just having fun?
That seems like a fairly hefty mass of copper that'll be pretty expensive on fabrication. I recall making some more standard sized blocks...I think I managed to mill out about 2 to 3 different bases. Even at the smaller sizes I was fairly dissapointed in how much cost was involved and it really opened up my eyes on how important the fabrication cost was. Some folks might pay $100 for a custom hand made block, but that market is pretty darn competeive for anything mass produced.
I actually took a few side one off orders to make custom stuff and every single time I lost money in it..barely made enough to cover materials and tooling and usually donated my time to do the machining. I would suggest talking with Ianh here or fastfreddy over at ocnet if your intent is to do more than just some fun experiments. They are the only two I know who were producing custom blocks for anything more than fun. I gave up hope, but I do still have my lathe/mill. But...Instead of making water blocks they have been making custom dune buggy parts..:)
Its a great experience though..nothing more satisfying than cooling you own pc with your own designed block..this used to be fairly common a few years ago...now people freak out if they can't use compression fittings....unfortunately the watercolling hobby has gone mainstream and we see less and less crafstmanship every day. Fortunately there are a few brave souls out there experimenting including yourself. Don't let the negative comments get you down..its all part of learning. It really is all good!..and we are also fortunate to have people like Vapor and Skinnee doing real scientific levels of testing. Id suggesting learning everything you can if you want to carry your own testing to higher levels....testing is another one of those always critisized tasks...you'll never please everyone. Only human nature for folks to justify their own past purchasing decisions..they don't like thinking they were wrong or that there is something better than what they already bought. Also people enjoy sharing their own experiences..just that we often come off as critics when that really isn't our intent. Anyhow...bottom line is to have fun and learn...and don't let the drama get in the way of that..:up:
Cheers!
Martin
I hope you manage to develop this further into production (possibly with a manufacturer if you need) as it will allow increased cooling into loops that cannot support any more rads as well as the added safefty should a pump fail. It could also be developed as a finned aftermarket addon for existing blocks that supported a fan.
What a read! Why don't you try heatpipes next time?
ZOMG a Vapor-X CPU block. it's genious.Quote:
Originally Posted by cegras
If I gets more polished up with a smooth finish and Nickel plating I'd buy one :up:
thank u all for the kind words. heatpipes are outside the capabilities of my basement fabrication. Im sort of on a mini vacation this weekend but i cant seem to keep away. :P
thanks! cant do the nickle plate (as of yet unless someone knows a good source of DIY nickel plate) but the next ones will look much nicerQuote:
Originally Posted by ohms
so.... just because his did not work doesn't mean this won'tQuote:
Originally Posted by shazza
Just mounted it up. Results are not pretty. :eh:
24c water temps and I'm seeing high 90s for temps. Add six to that (to get to my normalized 30c water temps) and it's over 100C whereas the Supreme HF P1 and kryos XT are at 76C, Apogee GT is 83.3C, and the Heatkiller 3.0 LT is at 78.1C
I'm not going to risk my testbed so shutting it down now and will check contact and remount.
Check the physics - the properties of water and air - these don't change.Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICHEESE
Probably only way to be able to complete tests is to decrease heatload, as in lower overclock and alike. Will add extra work to test with other waterblocks though at same eased up conditions. Well, at least you'll be able to test out impact of aircooled part (i doubt it's effectiveness though .. fin area is too small compared to moder air coolers).
you are still not telling me anything i don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by shazza
the water temp will increase as the system runs for longer until it becomes stable. with decent case airflow this block could have worked with minor adjustments as the air temp will be lower than the water temp
EDIT: Seriously do you think that someone would think that their properties would change?