Supposedly this LCD will work at 120Hz when you are not using the glasses. Somehow, I doubt it though. I would bet money that without the glasses, it will only be 60Hz effective.
Printable View
Supposedly this LCD will work at 120Hz when you are not using the glasses. Somehow, I doubt it though. I would bet money that without the glasses, it will only be 60Hz effective.
Dur.. I'm talking about the 3d effect as an illusion. The Viewsonic monitors 120Hz is not an illusion.. it's 120Hz, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR
And how do you know that?
An easy way to test if it is really 120fps is frame tearing. If it is operating at 120fps, it would be able to display fluid motion all the way to 120fps without experiencing any frame tearing. So get a game where you can put a frame cap on, and set it at like 110 or 115 fps, and move the mouse around really fast and see if there is frame tearing. If there is, it is not 120Hz.
imho, LCDs will never provide true 100+ hz refresh rate, only SEDs will, although when those come out, is a big question...
Sorry this is completely wrong. Tearing has nothing to do with the FPS. It has to do with what is in the front buffer when the monitor refreshes. So you'll get tearing no matter what the refresh rate is unless you have v-sync on.Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
In fact you'll get twice as much tearing with 120Hz because there are twice the number of refreshes, unlinked from the backbuffer presents. But the fact is each refresh displays for less time so it might end up harder to see.
By the way, it's not 120fps, it's 120Hz... 120 refreshes. It is *not* linked to frames in any way.
Very interested in these 120Hz'ers.
I hope these make conventional LCDs obsolete very soon so that I can snatch one 1920x1200 model as soon as possible. My Almost 2 year old 20" widescreen is getting cluttered too often... And the sluggish image hurts my brain. :\
SED is dead, look to FED hopefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by anzial
:up::rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR
seriously, i want those damn hz, who gives a ... about the 3d illusion stuff :D
That's what I'm saying. You can play with ugly glasses if you want, just give me the monitor ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr7
I think they are pretty much both dead, it appears that all manufacturers have abandoned ship of both technologies and are all working on OLED. So I will be looking forward to OLED instead....Quote:
Originally Posted by shiznit93
That is incorrect. I test this on my LCD in UT3, and I put an fps cap of 55fps. No tearing, ever. When I increase it to 100fps, I do notice tearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr7
Same thing on my old CRT that supported 120Hz, I put a cap of 115fps and I never saw any tearing. When I increased it to 180fps, I saw tearing.
I'm not sure about LCDs, but refresh rate is also equal to how many fps your monitor can display. If that is not true on LCDs, then please explain, what would be the point of a 120Hz LCD?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiznit93
Thanks for the updates :D Anyways, I seriously doubt that LCD technology will eek out something like true 100+hz tech, I think we need something else for that... Maybe even this viewsonic display is not exactly LCD either ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmore
I have done both fps cap at 60fps on my 30" 2560x1600 & V-synced at 60fps & there is still some tearing with just 60 fps cap where there is none V-synced 60Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
30" @ 10bit color and 120hz - looking forward to the day...
Thats weird, there is none for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final8ty
Don't forget $6000 a piece!Quote:
Originally Posted by Anemone
ill take two please. upgrade from my 60hz viewsonic 22" vg2230wm screen. love the way this one looks and about time they started with them. as for the 120hz TV's i see a big difference in refresh rate on them, as i just bought one last weekend and love it, 42" Vizo, awesome screen.
You may not notice it because fps cap at near to monitor refresh rate is better than none & will reduce tearing to what you will notice with more variable fps.Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
But V-synced is even better & will get rid of tearing totally.
FPS Cap is like 2 gears going the same speed in rotation but the teeth are not guaranteed to line up all the time, as they are not meshed together but are close together.
Vsync will Mesh the gears together so that they stay in line all the time.
So a 120Hz screen can give you 120fps V-Synced.....buttery heaven.
*VA/S-IPS panel, or TN junk?
Indeed :slobber: :slobber:Quote:
Originally Posted by Final8ty
But maybe it'll be possible with HD9870 :p:
V-sync also causes very noticeable mouse lag though making it totally unacceptable for FPS games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final8ty
Judging by the specs, a very average TN. Which is what makes me think this can't really be 120Hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by XSAlliN
In some games it worse than others but i have gotten used to it as i find tearing far more distracting.Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
Ok well then I modify my previous statement. To test if it really is 120Hz, enable Vsync at 120Hz, and if you get tearing with vsync enabled, it is not true 120Hz.
That would not work as V-Sync is done at the gfx card frame buffer level and will sync to what ever the screen can really do.Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
Its painful enough try to get 60FPS maxed out in all games as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR
But i will not be denied 30" 120FPS :yepp:
They will have to get the pixle response times down allot as you will notice more after smear.
FED is still alive and doing well, new companies buying into the tech every month, a 240hz flat panel with CRT picture quality using a fraction of the power is no joke. OLED will take longer than people think, it just doesn't last long enough. Check out http://www.fed-tv-reviews.com.Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmore
or try to feed it a true 120hz signal from your video card and watch what happens. The so-called 120hz TVs will not take anything over 60hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
FED is a really impressive tech to me and doesn't seem to have any disadvantages at all exept perhaps cost like with any new technology at first. Too bad it's so far away from any FED comp monitor releases if there will be any so I couldn't wait that long with a CRT so meanwhile a 120Hz LCD will do although it will be a degration in some aspects to my CRT, but since there's no other choices I'll have to settle with what's available...
Sigh if people wouldn't have accepted LCDs so well, perhaps we'd have some better tech today already...
this problem would vanish if it's 120hz<->120fps. the higher the refresh rate, the less mouselag you'll have. 85hz + vsync are fine for me regarding mouselag (which is almost not noticable), but anything lower than 85hz.... so 120hz would really kick ass...Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
+1 I forgot to add that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaZz!
Yeah this better not be TN junk, I have had enough of the TN based LCDs already!Quote:
Originally Posted by XSAlliN
I want to see more IPS based LCD's...these have the potential of being good for gamers which reasonable image quality (I'm happy with my NEC 20WGX2 Pro)
Been looking for a 24" but they are either junky TN or huge input lag VA panels.
I really do hope that this Viewsonic 120Hz panel is the real deal and will end up being the LCD we have been waiting for since 2001.
John
My guess would be that it is a TN based panel, just because that would make it easier to make a 120Hz. LCD panel as TN panels have the lowest response times. A second reason for the use of a TN based panel would be to keep production costs down as TN panels are quite a bit cheaper than other panel types. It does give poorer image quality than other panels though, which is why I will probably not get this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZS
Here is hoping though that this will spur other LCD manufacturers into making more of these proper 120Hz. displays, so that we will one day have 30" 10-bit 120Hz. LCD panels with something like BrightSide HDR technology. One can only dream of something like that, until OLED or something matures.
i think the response time of non-TN panels is too slow to make a 120hz monitor
i think you need a time of less than 8ms BTW to avoid ghosting at 120hz
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZS
It will most probably be TN according to spec's in fact I bet it will be TN.
IPS are good-ish for gamers but they lack black quality and they do have some degree of input lag.
They keep coming down and *VA based panels are starting to hit around 5ms. Response times should optimal by the time we see 120Hz monitors saturating the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
I can tell you right now, the LCD linked to in the OP won't be anything but TN. This is Viewsonic we're talking about after all. And I still don't believe it will be true 120Hz. No way a company goes from marketing overpriced gimmicks and junk to making the first 120Hz native LCD ever produced.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZS
Oh and guys I hope you do not base response time based on the manufacturer rating. There is no set standard for measuring response time, and most manufactures use some kind of alternate measuring scale that makes the response time look lower than it actually is. Or they overvolt the panel to lower response time, but this causes evident smearing and snow. Yet others simply lie.
Viewsonic is not a company that can be taken at its word for their rated response time.
...Anyway enough about that. If you are looking for a 24" IPS based LCD, you are going to need to drop some cash, but they do exist. For example, the one I just got. An NEC LCD2490WUXiSV. It uses an H-IPS panel which is the successor to S-IPS. It improves on aperture ratio and gets rid of the "sparkly" look of S-IPS panels. It also has an A-TW polarizer which allows for very good black viewing angles and minimizes panel glow. 1920x1200 native.
The NEC also comes with a Gretag Macbeth colorimeter and the NEC SpectraView II software which is specifically designed for the NEC LCDxx90WUXi monitors (and a few others). Unlike normal calibration which is reliant on the video card and drivers, the monitors which are supported by SpectraView do their own internal calibration -- it is not reliant on drivers or the video card. Because of this it even stays consistent in games and such. The model I have is an 8-bit panel with a 12-bit LUT.
Calibrated with the Photo Editing setting, this monitor is absolutely insane. Especially the blacks -- which surprised me as it is an H-IPS panel. You have to see it to understand how good they are. Absolutely no backlight bleeding either. With the Photo Editing calibration, the contrast ratio is calibrated to 605:1 actual, and I thought that was rather low. Boy I was wrong. The difference between blacks and bright colors (such as HDR) is absolutely breathtaking for an LCD -- it far surpasses my old LG L2000C that had a contrast ratio of 1000:1, and had an S-IPS panel. If you can afford this monitor, it will be one of the best investments you make.
I notice no more ghosting or input delay than is present on typical TN "gaming" LCDs.
The issue with VA panels is not pixel response time (which affects ghosting), but rather actual input delay (think: the kind caused by v-sync, but to a lesser degree)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper
Input lag is caused by the post-processing of the signal received from the video card that is why it is pressent in almoust all over-drive models atleast that is how I interpret it.
120Hz does not require low input lag. Input lag is simply from the processing of the image. They could have an input lag of 1000ms but still process it at 120Hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
I know that. But having high input lag basically negates any benefits of 120Hz or fast response time, IMO at least. If the mouse is not moving in synchronization with your hand, it is unusable in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper
For the absolute fastest lag-free output, it's ideal to play on a CRT at a higher refresh rate than the max. frames per second that the game is capped at, with vsync disabled (if the tearing is not too bad). For example, enabling vsync at 90 Hz would incur a penalty of approx. 11ms lag. Not too shabby, though..., compared to the usual 50-100ms lag of online play.
For single-player games that are not so dependent upon absolute fastest response times, the input lag of LCD's do not matter that much. It only bothers me in racing games, and of course online fragfests. What puzzles me is that when games add "motion blur", it appears redundant since most LCD's have bad enough ghosting that it looks like "built-in" motion blur (which is awful for fast-paced online games).
Triple buffering is only recommended if response times are not that important. At 60Hz, triple buffering would incur a full 32ms penalty. If your LCD already has a 50ms input lag penalty, add triple buffering to that for a total of 82ms lag. If you have a wireless keyboard/mouse, that would add 10ms or more depending on the polling rate and the receiver itself.
When I play to pwn, my refresh is set at 90Hz on my CRT, with the game capped at 85fps--and it usually stays at sustained 85fps, with vsync disabled. The tearing is barely noticeable--I'm quite used to it anyways. It's nowhere as bad as if the frame rates were at like 300fps with the refresh at only 60Hz or something like that (like doing a 3DMark2001 run).
One more thing.. CRT's also display ghosting when the contrast is turned all the way up. However, it's only relative to very bright lights against a dark background. It's very minor compared to a much bigger ghosting problem found on most LCD's nowadays. The "response time" on LCD's is all about the ghosting problem--when overdrive tries to get rid of that, it does not do it well enough many times. Sometimes, it's overly adjusted (like a droop). And the buffering time required to do the adjusting for overdrive is what makes the input lag so bad. Those online gamers pay the price, as LCD manufacturers only care about reducing the "response time" since most noob gamers think that's the solution. Overdrive does improve the IQ to a degree but what about the "ping" time that matters so much? Pathetic. We gamers really do need to voice out our concerns more for a specific product to meet our needs.
Damn so this LCD is going to be TN :down:
Anyway I know you guys are not fans of Viewsonic but back in the day, they did make ONE really good LCD....the VP191b, it wasn't bad and at the time was the best general purpose 19" LCD (as practically all others were TN or high response VA panels). The VP930 was not too bad either but then Viewsonic started to milk the money cow and churn out 1000's of TN based screens that were utter dross.
Thanks for the suggestion 003, I shall keep my eyes open for this NEC monitor as I am really fond of my current 20WGX2 Pro, however I have heard rumours that the 24" 2490 is not being shipped in Europe :(Quote:
Originally Posted by 003
Oh well here is hoping the 120Hz technology drifts over to IPS!
John
any news?
still nothing?Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
QFT. My VX2025wm's DVI port died a while ago and when I called Viewsonic to request an RMA they told me that because it was more than a year old they only do repairs, not RMAs. So I was up sh*t creek at school with a non-functional monitor. Convinced me to order an E247WFP from Dell and send the Viewsonic back to be fixed, then sell the Viewsonic once I get it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by turtletrax
Never buying another Viewsonic again if I can help it.
Zombieeee threeeeeaadddddddddddd
it was the manufacturer's decision, not the pubic. imoQuote:
Sigh if people wouldn't have accepted LCDs so well, perhaps we'd have some better tech today already...
ive got 2 crt's: the philips is good, but the diamond digital is pretty dim unfortunately.
if i get any probs with either of my crts im going tn panel with low input lag/ response time.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Now there trying to proprietor monitors per graphic company?:rolleyes: What next - Geforce gaming mice?:ROTF:Quote:
GeForce Stereoscopic 3D technology
I'd like to SLI my mouse buttons, and have Fatal1ty sign it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Think
I have the same problem with the same monitor... but its not worth RMA'ing since its a design fault. But using it with the vga connector is still better than using any of my other TN panels, even for gaming :DQuote:
Originally Posted by YMAA
I have the same monitor. Every time the DVI connector goes "dumb", I turn it off, I unplug all the cables (including power), press the power button, watch the green led go off (as the capacitors discharge), plug everything back, switch it on and... presto! DVI working again.Quote:
Originally Posted by oohms
Same trick works with a Samsung monitor at work.
Fwiw the reason most gamers don't use LCD's is ghosting, which is not directly tied to refresh rates, more so response time. Would be very interested to see ghosting tests performed on this monitor.
I use an LCD for gaming and have learned to compensate if you will for ghosting, namely I need to aim ahead of my targets head, would be nice to be able to aim at a target again and not air.
I don't avoid LCDs because of ghosting, even a cheap 4ms TN LG panel had perfectly fast enough responses IMO but what I miss is the 100 fps gaming for some games why I'm sticking to my CRT.
I'm gonna quote an excellent answer I saw on another forum when discussing this monitor which fully explains my own thoughts about refresh rate:
^ I believe this is the #1 reason there are many anxious gamers waiting for this 120Hz LCD to be released if it's indeed an improvement to motion smoothness if playing games above 60 FPS as it might finally bring CRT motion smoothness to LCD tech. That remains to be seen though...Quote:
Originally Posted by eatbuckshot
I'm with you on that, I can distinguish up to ~100fps pretty easily but above that I can't tell any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD
Here's something interesting, if you're just watching a game can you see anything above ~60? The only way I can tell is how the game responds. I've been trained that ~100fps is "normal" by all the fps games I've played over the years, anything that *ever* dips below 60 makes me perceive the game to be running "choppily." I guess I'm spoiled, lol.
i have a flat screen TV that is 120 HZ but it isn't LCD or plasma its an older one so its still got a tube. Would that work like a 120 HZ monitor hooked up to my computer?
and yes when we first got it, it made everything look fake in movies and on normal TV. took a while to adjust
That TV is probably one of those few 120Hz CRT TVs with a controller that creates more frames by "calculating" how the next frame will be like which is inserted "between" the frames in order to improve motion smoothness. But like you said it also affects the way people move or how movies look like and creates the "soap opera" effect and might even look unnatural. So I doubt hooking up that to your computer would give you any benefit at all, it's not the same thing as running it as true 120Hz refresh rate. Running at true 120Hz shouldn't affect how streams/vids or how movies look like, you could even run at 500Hz and it shouldn't make a difference if it's true 120/500Hz and not an interpolation trick etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoboclese
The same applies to today's 120Hz LCD TVs, it shouldn't make any difference over a LCD monitor for games hooking it up to the computer AFAIK but I haven't really checked out every manifacturer's version of this feature how it works etc so can't say for 100% but I'm pretty sure it'll have no benefit for comp usage.
What resolution does it operate at? If it is 1024x768 then its probably 120hz true.
still no news?
Dude, could you please stop bumping this thread? You keep giving me false hope that there will be actual news inside.