GTX Corrosion

My question is why use alu in the first place and then have to mess with worrying about using corrosion inhibitors? Why not copper to begin with, or delrin (wouldn't delrin be cheaper too)?

If that guy did use tap/filtered water then shame on him.

I don't know, guys. You heard Gabe respond. He's not changing anything regardless of what you guys say. I much prefer that such controversies not occur. Anyway, Swiftech is not changing a thing and calling your bluff.

All I want is the top performing block, that's all. I'm not Nikhsub1. If its made of aluminum, I will take all precautions and use it. Its all moot now, because right now, the nozzled D-Tek FuZion performs better, whether or not the copper top is on the GTX. :shrug:

Just so you know, although its none of anyone's business, I'm using FuZions.. for now.. unless EK proves itself really 4degrees C better.

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Lets back up a minute here guys. Is the GTX top supposed to be coated or plated? If so what is it's purpose? I thought it was to make it so there is no bare aluminum to come in contact with the water no? If this is the case why the hell does an additive need to be used? We don't need to prevent corrosion since the coating of the top should do this. Someone please tell me I'm wrong. Cause guess what. I have run for about 1.5 years WITH NO ADDITIVE JUST DISTILLED WATER. Guess what. Nothing corroded. Is it because I am 1337? Or is it because I had no aluminum in the loop? If corrosion inhibitors NEED TO BE used with the stock GTX top then IT MIGHT AS WELL BE BARE ALUMINUM.

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Which is pretty much the point i'm trying to also make. So what, he didn't use pentosin, if the plating worked correctly (or if the top wasn't made out of aluminum, but delrin/stainless steel/copper instead) then corrosion wouldn't of happened anyway. Plating or not, aluminum is always a risk, and just placing the blame on not using pentosin is just skirting the issue at hand. I'd rather use pure distilled water in my loop because it has better thermal properties as a liquid than water+anything else, and the only way i'd ever feel safe doing that is with an all copper loop.

With that in mind, the Fuzion+nozzles is a much better deal than the GTX+copper top, in performance and price. Though the GTX has it beat on the looks.

So, in conclusion, there is no reason anyone should be forced to use corrosion inhibitors in this day and age of watercooling performance, there is just no justifiable and logical reason to put aluminum in any watercooling loop.

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Originally Posted by Shlomo

Which is pretty much the point i'm trying to also make. So what, he didn't use pentosin, if the plating worked correctly (or if the top wasn't made out of aluminum, but delrin/stainless steel/copper instead) then corrosion wouldn't of happened anyway. Plating or not, aluminum is always a risk, and just placing the blame on not using pentosin is just skirting the issue at hand. I'd rather use pure distilled water in my loop because it has better thermal properties as a liquid than water+anything else, and the only way i'd ever feel safe doing that is with an all copper loop.

With that in mind, the Fuzion+nozzles is a much better deal than the GTX+copper top, in performance and price. Though the GTX has it beat on the looks.

So, in conclusion, there is no reason anyone should be forced to use corrosion inhibitors in this day and age of watercooling performance, there is just no justifiable and logical reason to put aluminum in any watercooling loop.

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I see your point of view and, personally, I agree. No additives to distilled water will do it any good, because the pH will change from the almighty neutral 7 and BAD BAD things will happen. As far as algae, this is why I (a n00b to WC) was so concerned about flushing. I'm doing a first flush after 3months in Jan08, but no prob if I have to do it once a month to beat bacteria. Just FYI, I'm using Masterkleer Hose, and after close to 3 weeks I don't see any clouding. Could this be because I sterilized my loop with 50/50 vinegar/water in the beginning? It was rec'd by Maxxxracer in the stickies...

Folks got a point here. If there is corrosion here, it means invariably that the ALU has suffered a breach to the H20. Nothing more nothing less. So the plating procedure is not enough. Anodize?

Folks, just vote with your wallet... Gabe will get the message if enough do this.

I bought a Fuzion so there is one less customer for their GTX.

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Originally Posted by [XC] riptide

Folks got a point here. If there is corrosion here, it means invariably that the ALU has suffered a breach to the H20. Nothing more nothing less. So the plating procedure is not enough. Anodize?

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ZOMG didn't you read how many times Waterlogged has had to say that plating and anodizing are not the same!!!

Dammit Man!

:rofl:

This thread is Legendary. :up:

Face it the Copper Top is incredibly good looking. Nothing wrong with the GTX design..just needs the copper top and it's a work of art.

electrolysis.. ask a plumber about tying copper, water and a alloy together.. it is a no no.

as for my water in my computer it is distilled with about 1/2 a cap full of redline water wetter. i heat houses with tap water for a living. been doing it for about 10 years..boilers,pumps,manifolds,copper,pex and electronics.. it is fun..

mil spec plating = just takes a while longer to corrode...

even so proper precaution against corrosion should not be in fine print, it should be in the first sentence and in BOLD to emphasize...

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Originally Posted by ElEctric_EyE

Can somebody please just use battery acid in their loop and take some pics and post them. Then start complaining how bad a manufacturers product is, I really need a good laugh. Tap water only gets a chuckle out of me. TIA

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:rofl: :ROTF: :ROTF: :rofl:

++

I think a urine loop would be a good test. My piss will eat through stainless steel o..O

Why take the piss out of the GTX when you can put the piss into the GTX

This thread is what you get when you go on the cheap and try to maximise profit. Enough reason for me to never buy a Swiftech block.

Still waiting to see where chainbolt said he used tap water. Anyone? Gabe?

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Originally Posted by ElEctric_EyE

I see your point of view and, personally, I agree. No additives to distilled water will do it any good, because the pH will change from the almighty neutral 7 and BAD BAD things will happen.

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My favorite post in this thread was yours earlier: why not using battery acid as coolant? :rofl:

One claim of 1.5 year of continuous use of additive-less distilled water does not specify how often the loop was drained in that period of time. I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt that any active member of XS has ever left their system un-tinkered with for more than a few months (weeks? days?) at a time. I can already imagine new users reading this and thinking that it's Ok to fill-up their system with pure distilled water, to come back 1 year later and find an entire ecosystem in their loop.

In the the real world, I wouldn't recommend running pure distilled water for CONTINUOUS EXTENDED use in any loop, mixed metals or not. It WILL develop algea, that same algea will end up clogging the small features in your w/b, jets, micro-channels, etc etc...

Additives are a must for any prolongued use. Period.

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Originally Posted by Borgod

This thread is what you get when you go on the cheap and try to maximise profit. Enough reason for me to never buy a Swiftech block.

Still waiting to see where chainbolt said he used tap water. Anyone? Gabe?

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Thats a bit extreme, swiftech creates great products, the aluminum top was just a little ill-advised. I'll use their products anyday, just not the GTX as it is now with an aluminum top.

Just because a company tried to maximize profits doesn't mean you should shun them. It's the goal for every company, hopefully Gabe got the picture and sees what needs to be done for his next design, but a company trying to maximize profits is no reason for you to boycott them....

Gabe, I don't think people would truly use 100% distilled water and no PT nuke, when I say that I use pure distilled water and only that, it doesn't mean I don't put a few drops of PT nuke into the loop. A few drops of that is much different than 3oz of Pentosin.. mostly I see people using Pentosin, and HydrX for the looks, not the anti-algae/corrosion inhibitors they possess. Then again, I think algae can grow in a 10% concentration of pentosin, I never really tested it.

Delrin+Copper=Fuzion for me. More than satisfied with it. No corrosion worries and it won't warp my board. Now if the EK block performs even better...

Its great to try new techniques but sometimes, it just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by gabe

One claim of 1.5 year of continuous use of additive-less distilled water does not specify how often the loop was drained in that period of time. I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt that any active member of XS has ever left their system un-tinkered with for more than a few months (weeks? days?) at a time. I can already imagine new users reading this and thinking that it's Ok to fill-up their system with pure distilled water, to come back 1 year later and find an entire ecosystem in their loop.

In the the real world, I wouldn't recommend running pure distilled water for CONTINUOUS EXTENDED use in any loop, mixed metals or not. It WILL develop algea, that same algea will end up clogging the small features in your w/b, jets, micro-channels, etc etc...

Additives are a must for any prolongued use. Period.

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I don't like being called a liar Gabe :mad: And yes, about 1.5 years with NO TINKERING and NO WATER CHANGE and NO ADDITIVES. Did ya'll know that silver is a biocide? Does anyone know that I have a G5? Do we all know that it is made of silver? Enough said.

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Originally Posted by DerekFSE

Why is there corrosion inside the threads? Shouldnt barbs be screwed into those?

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Because water can get inside the threads, but not through the o-ring which is on the other side... if threads were waterproof we wouldn't need to put o-rings on the outside to keep water from leaking out.

:offtopic: Your quote in your signature Niksub1 is wrong, it goes "Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Hogfather, by Terry Pratchett

Terry Pratchett is one of my favorite authors hehe :offtopic:

Shifting ground I see.
No longer, the mil hardware handles all.
Now its, of course everyone uses belt and braces or should, and get what they get if they don't.

Marketing is a pain. There's a couple of guys posting on fora I frequent that seem like they could be nice guys to talk to. But the spin their company marketing position engenders is a barrier. Pity, that.

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Originally Posted by Shlomo

Just because a company tried to maximize profits doesn't mean you should shun them. It's the goal for every company, hopefully Gabe got the picture and sees what needs to be done for his next design, but a company trying to maximize profits is no reason for you to boycott them....

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To side-step the issue of the FAULT in their product, shift blame onto the user with invented facts, attempt to dazzle us with the 'thousands sold' statistics and suggest some of us are liars or dummies is enough for me to not want give a cent to said company.

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The user in this post admitted using tap/demineralized water (filtered?)

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Which one is it, there is a big difference between the two.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Good points,

Time will tell when Petra gets his lab report back.

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Gimme a little time here... It turns out that I'm going to have to do some shopping around, as the cost of such services seems to vary quite a lot depending on where I look. So far, I've had estimates ranging from about $1500 to $3000 :eh: ...and that's an awful lot just to prove a point. I shall keep looking, though. I may be receiving a second compromised aluminum GTX top from a different customer somewhat soon, which should help with analysis.

Now, I have voiced concerns to Gabe and others since the introduction of the Apogee GTX--concerns that were founded upon some phone conversations that I had a while back with an OEM that I work with who had some bad experiences experimenting with aluminum while developing cold plates for their multi-kilowatt LED arrays. I have also stated numerous times that most people shouldn't experience corrosion issues with the Apogee GTX/Stealth line, provided that they use some sort of corrosion inhibitor. However, as pointed out by Scott and others, therein lies the problem. The Apogee GTX is marketed as being a performance product intended for the enthusiast crowd, but a good portion of the performance-seeking users are running straight distilled with, perhaps, some form of biocide (be it silver, iodine, copper sulphate, etc.), as that is all that should ever be needed. Putting total faith into almost any plating process (with regard to corrosion prevention and aluminum) is somewhat akin to me claiming that there are no quality control issues with products coming out of China--be they large or small in scope, you will run into problems at some point. Given the numerous materials options which were available while designing the Apogee GTX that wouldn't have posed any possibility of causing a problem, we shouldn't be having this conversation right now... but here we are.

Does it matter that there have been, perhaps, only four cases of possible corrosion involving the Apogee GTX (that I know of, have been posted on XS, etc.)? No. Does it matter that I can personally verify only one (maybe two, depending) of these cases out of "thousands" of Apogee GTX blocks sold by Swiftech? No. The point is that it can happen... but it shouldn't have been allowed to--the only reason that the possibility of corrosion exists in this product is due to choices that were made by Swiftech.

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Originally Posted by CyberDruid

ZOMG didn't you read how many times Waterlogged has had to say that plating and anodizing are not the same!!!

Dammit Man!

:rofl:

This thread is Legendary. :up:

Face it the Copper Top is incredibly good looking. Nothing wrong with the GTX design..just needs the copper top and it's a work of art.

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Thanks CD :p: :up:

btw, that comment I made about that wasn't aimed solely at you in case you were wondering.


As to the ppl wondering why tap water would make such a difference, I think I have your answer.

Tap water has minerals in it and while they are very tiny, they become abrasive particles when the water flows as fast as it does in our loops. Once it erodes the plating away, the plating itself becomes part of the abrasive material whizzing through the loop, then the aluminum gets added and so on and so forth until the mix gets so bad that you get what happened here. If you don't believe water with minerals can be abrasive, I ask you to look at the Grand Canyon. ;)

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Good points,

Time will tell when Petra gets his lab report back.

andyc

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Roger that!
Spin free zone.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ys/popcorn.gif

i'll grab some of that e-popcorn...

Also, keep in mind that even if Swiftech claimed to never heard of that many corroded GTX, it's very possible that owners who got corrosion on their GTX/Stealth just silently toss it in the garbage can not knowing there is a warranty and buy a different one. That might add up if we can find out how much of those guys did it.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Perhaps,

But I think a bigger concern is that tap water (read H2O with heavy mineral content) is a much greater electrolyte. It has the ability to conduct current much easier which is the fondation of galvanic corrosion.

I'm not sure the small amount of minerals in any one WC fill is enough to erode a part that quickly, but it's more than enough to accelerate galvanic corrsion. Couple that with the fact the plating is under stress due to the artificial bowing of the GTX top and your asking for trouble. Take any crome plated tube that's flat and bend it into a U shape, watch the crome plating flake off for example.

And the whole MILSPEC debate is pretty funny to anyone that's been in the military under combat conditions especialy on a flight line (MOS 6123/13).

One things for sure, the potential for what happened in the pics (ugliest thing in WC history IMO) couldl have been avoided, but some companies never learn.

This isn't the first time Swiftech has been thru the AL corrosion issue. Last time it was anodized parts, and pretty much the same claim to begin with from what I can dig up.

andyc

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That analysis was great, Andy. Makes perfect sense. MILSPEC doesn't always work under stress. I've seen M16 chambers jam up more than I care.

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

WOW! You really don't have any clue as who works where.

Jedda is an Aussie and is nothing more than a consumer.
AFAIK, IanY does NOT work for Swiftech. Again, another consumer.
Mekrel, Is also another consumer. He does NOT work for Thermochill, that's Marci.

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ROFL... Swiftech would go bankrupt if they had to hire iany full time. :rofl:

Or Iany is in there to consolidate, and liquidate the Corporatation if he was working for them. I believe his job is something like that.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Perhaps,

But I think a bigger concern is that tap water (read H2O with heavy mineral content) is a much greater electrolyte. It has the ability to conduct current much easier which is the fondation of galvanic corrosion.

I'm not sure the small amount of minerals in any one WC fill is enough to erode a part that quickly, but it's more than enough to accelerate galvanic corrsion. Couple that with the fact the plating is under stress due to the artificial bowing of the GTX top and your asking for trouble. Take any crome plated tube that's flat and bend it into a U shape, watch the crome plating flake off for example.

And the whole MILSPEC debate is pretty funny to anyone that's been in the military under combat conditions especialy on a flight line (MOS 6123/13).

One things for sure, the potential for what happened in the pics (ugliest thing in WC history IMO) couldl have been avoided, but some companies never learn.

This isn't the first time Swiftech has been thru the AL corrosion issue. Last time it was anodized parts, and pretty much the same claim to begin with from what I can dig up.

andyc

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IIRC, the spec's on each plated layer was .0005 thick, this is not very thick at all. The easiest way for me to describe to everyone how thick that is, is by using the good old human hair analogy. The average human hair (top of head) is approx .003, if you were to slice it length wise into 6 equal strips, it would give you .0005. Both layers of plating would equal 2 of those strips. It wouldn't take very long for "heavy" water to destroy both layers of plating if it were moving close to 1GPM or higher. Heck, they even have CNC's that use water with "proper" abrasives to machine metal.

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Originally Posted by IanY

I've seen M16 chambers jam up more than I care.

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Generally, when they begin to jam, it's time to clean... But adding a little CLP will work in a pinch.

The M16 might not be a Garand, but it's still a good weapon.

Sorry, back on topic.

LOL....Happen to see someones post over at [L]impOCP about this same exact topic.

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That's what backfired here and why Gabe released a copper top recently.

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The reason Swiftech released a copper top was because the idiots on XS screamed like banshees and he got tired of listening to their rants.

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Anyways, I am glad that we have people willing to sacrifice time and $$ here such as Petra to bring some more "intelligent" insight on this matter. I cannot wait for the results.

**Edit** I wonder if it was posted by the same waterlogged that posted in this thread? I would hope not.


-yonton228/timmy

Gabe:

U where pretty confident that the plated alu should not be a problem at all and where kinda almost offended of the people who where bashing the alu and wanted copper or delrin instead. U refused to do anything with it as it was fine like it its.
U have released a copper replacement top later, but i feel ur meaning about it is something like: "Its not really needed, its just to satisfy the enthusiast", or something....

I know, it aint many cases of corrosion, but there is SOME! And some could be none if it was delrin instead.
And the longer the loop is running the bigger tha chance of corrosion, right?

Now u say that some additives is necessesary with the top,(is it because of the alu maybe? ;) ) but do u really believe that 2 drops of PTnuke would have elimenated the corrosion? No!

Im not suprised to see this thread and im (still) not touching the gtx. (im getting a fuzion)

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Now u say that some additives is necessesary with the top,(is it because of the alu maybe? ) but do u really believe that 2 drops of PTnuke would have elimenated the corrosion? No!

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Isn't PT-Nuke generally used for preventing things from growing? I believe you meant Pentosin or something along those lines?



-yonton228/timmy

PT nuke is and anti algae additive.. But it still is an additive ;)

Edit: And in an all copper loop, thats all u need. Distilled water and a couple of drops of PT nuke...

Seems very simular to a problem i had in my prevuis setup...

Innovatek G-Flow and Fluid XP does'nt mix...

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Originally Posted by yonton228

LOL....Happen to see someones post over at [L]impOCP about this same exact topic.



Anyways, I am glad that we have people willing to sacrifice time and $$ here such as Petra to bring some more "intelligent" insight on this matter. I cannot wait for the results.

**Edit** I wonder if it was posted by the same waterlogged that posted in this thread? I would hope not.


-yonton228/timmy

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:shock2: WOW! I have a doppelganger. I wonder who I ticked off enough to want to do that? :shrug: Thanks for the heads up.

I don't go out of my way to visit them ([H]) unless a link is posted here. They're simply not worth my time. I have only 2 accounts with this nick, one is here and the other is @ DD, but I've since retired from there as only DD products are to be mentioned when the usual "what parts for my loop" question comes up.

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Originally Posted by Petra

the only reason that the possibility of corrosion exists in this product is due to choices that were made by Swiftech.

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Don't forget the blame the USER that bought it and didn't bother to take any means to minimum the risk of corrosion (actually accelerated it)...... It took two things to happen:

1. Switech to make the product
2. A consumer buying it that doesn't want to read instructions

Funny everyone rushes to the aid of a user that clearly shouldn't have bought the product if he wasn't going to bother reading the instructions or better yet use any common sense. Accountablity is a thing lost in this world.

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Originally Posted by RickCain

Accountablity is a thing lost in this world.

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I'm the first to agree however, make it VERY clear that even though the top is milspec plated, that one MUST RUN ANTI CORROSIVE additives otherwise corrosion will occur, despite the treatment to the aluminum top. In all fairness Rick, your argument would be valid if the top was bare aluminum (which it should at this point be treated as). Shame that Swiftech said corrosion would never be an issue with this top. Wonder why they said that way back when, and now they are saying, 'Well, sure it will corrode with just distilled/tap water'.

I have been running my loop with all copper, except for the mixed GTX for about 4 months now, I have PT NUKE and Pentosin G11 in the loop. I will have to take down my loop and check out my block, to see if there is any change, if there is I will post pics. My system runs 24/7 so the blocks get a decent amount of abuse.

As is, I have 4 blocks in my loop, GTX, 2XMCW60, MCW30, as well as the Copper PA120.3, so in theory, there SHOULD be corrosion, but if not, what does that say?

The only thing I want is some assurance that my block won't corrode and after talking to Petra, and it being discussed that I have a corrosion inhibitor in the loop that I should be okay. I can not begin to count how many times, I have seen others state to use more then just water, because of the potential for trouble.

If someone doesn't follow well stated advice that is the fools fault, we all come here to XS for the information and its clearly stated time and time again.

Gabe, Petra, and Niksub i would wager to say have a pretty good idea of what they are talking about as many of us have waged bets with our money in buying from/through/because of them and others. If this were a bubble and it wereto collapse because of a simple oversight, no one is to blame as its all our faults, so we are all to blame.

All this finger pointing and bickering is childish we are not in the school yard arguing over if someone was out playing kickball.

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Originally Posted by CyberDruid

ZOMG didn't you read how many times Waterlogged has had to say that plating and anodizing are not the same!!!

Dammit Man!

:rofl:

This thread is Legendary. :up:

Face it the Copper Top is incredibly good looking. Nothing wrong with the GTX design..just needs the copper top and it's a work of art.

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Druid.... when I said Anodize it was a suggestive alternative to Plating. AS a manu. process. If it can be done is the question?

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Originally Posted by Xilikon

Also, keep in mind that even if Swiftech claimed to never heard of that many corroded GTX, it's very possible that owners who got corrosion on their GTX/Stealth just silently toss it in the garbage can not knowing there is a warranty and buy a different one. That might add up if we can find out how much of those guys did it.

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Thats what I did with mine. Bin. Was wondering why my pump was not pushing much water aorund and why the temps were getting higher and higher. One of the barbs was blocked where the corrosion built up at the plate.

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Originally Posted by RickCain

Don't forget the blame the USER that bought it and didn't bother to take any means to minimum the risk of corrosion (actually accelerated it)...... It took two things to happen:

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I'm still waiting for proof that he indeed did not take 'any means to minimise the risk of corrosion'

Where does it say he used tap water/ no additive?

Please explain?

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

I'm the first to agree however, make it VERY clear that even though the top is milspec plated, that one MUST RUN ANTI CORROSIVE additives otherwise corrosion will occur, despite the treatment to the aluminum top. In all fairness Rick, your argument would be valid if the top was bare aluminum (which it should at this point be treated as). Shame that Swiftech said corrosion would never be an issue with this top. Wonder why they said that way back when, and now they are saying, 'Well, sure it will corrode with just distilled/tap water'.

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Yeah, I remember some of the members from this forum preaching on [H] that it was "milspec" material, blah blah blah.

Now for a company to make a BOLD statement that corrosion would never be an issue is plain dumb. I did not see that comment.

I will however stand by my comment that I would NEVER use a product that bolts aluminum directly to copper.

AMEN to that Phelan...

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Originally Posted by [XC] riptide

Druid.... when I said Anodize it was a suggestive alternative to Plating. AS a manu. process. If it can be done is the question?

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No, anodizing is by far, inferior to plating.

A collection of past Swiftech posts (Gabe and OPPainter) regarding the GTX and corrosion from this thread: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=136661&page=1

I'm highlighting my favorite part in red.

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Originally Posted by gabe

Nickel/Zinc cobalt plated Aluminum:

We provide the MIL and ASTM specs on the plating of these housings. why hasn't anyone bothered to google these specs?

Please, let's review the facts (in this case the specs), before a hasty judgement is passed.

The treatment we give these parts is Military grade, and it is now being used by many other industries, including of course the Military. It's expensive, but well worth it.

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Originally Posted by gabe

here is the plating treatment sequence :

Wash/degrease
Caustic Etch
Acid Etch
De-oxydizer
Zincate primer
Electroless Nickel plating 12 micron
Zinc-cobalt plating 6 micron
Black die

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Originally Posted by gabe

I could justify this choice with 3 pages of technical explanations, but in final analysis: because I liked it! It's that simple.

And since I always put my money were my mouth is, the block is covered by a 5 year warranty.

We have been criticized in the past because we don't follow the bling trends (plexi tops etc..). I wanted to make something really beautiful, not bling, beautiful. So, while I do understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I also know that the proud owners of this block will be tempted to keep their case opened, just so that they can keep admiring it!

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Originally Posted by OPPAINTER

I don't know if this was mentioned before or not, but the fact is that the big wig engineers (smart guys) :D at Intel told Swiftech how to coat the aluminum. I'm pretty sure they knew what they where talking about. Then again, they are only INTEL :D

OPP

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Originally Posted by gabe

The quality of plating is defined by specifications. At equal specifications, the quality of a plated flute will be exactly the same as a that of a plated water-block. The cost of plating a musical instrument will be much higher simply because of the much larger surface area to plate.

Frankly, I don't know if manufacturers of musical instruments publish their plating specifications. After all, musicians might not be as interested in the manufacturing process as they are in the musical characteristics of their instrument. Conversely, our audience is composed of engineers and technically oriented people who need industry standard references (ASTM, MilSpec) to evaluate our manufacturing quality standards.

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Originally Posted by gabe

We already have a Delrin top: it's the Apogee GT. As to its performance, well do the Math: Naekuh himself has verified his numbers up and now down versus the competition, and we have verified that the GT is only ~1C off the GTX at 100Watts and 1.5GPM. So it clearly tells you were the GT is located performance wise compared to the competition; it's made of Delrin, and it's average street price is $10 to $15 less than competition.

What is most distressing to me is the fact that people in this forum do not trust our data. Yet, this data always end up being verified over time, despite the relentless efforts of the anti-swiftech crowd. I could see not trusting the new kid on the block, but we have been in business for 7 years, and published professional data for what? close to 5 years now? If our numbers were skewed, people would know it after so much time. The only thing we don't publish is competitive data, which doesn't mean that we don't conduct competitive testing in-house. We simply chose not to create controversy by publishing it. So we know were our blocks are on the performance curve, at the tenth of the degree Celsius, and let's just say that we feel very comfortable about it. I also think that the backplate we are about to release will indeed bring both the GT and the GTX a mounting repeatability that will definitely allow all users to exploit the true potential of these blocks.

Back to the GTX and the plating issue, we made a mistake several years ago with anodized blocks. But everybody learns from their mistakes. I know we have, and as a result I am completely confident with the process that we are using now. The fact that you and a few others don't feel comfortable with it is a result of bad past experiences, and I understand it. But progress is made precisely by making mistakes, learning from them, and growing from there. Those who remain stuck in the old ways do not grow: they stagnate and end up falling behind the pace of technology.

Frankly the chances of corrosion in these blocks versus say the chances of machined acrylic tops cracking are thousands to 1. Yet, you guys buy acrylic top blocks (one piece VGA blocks come to mind) like mad. Doesn't matter that theyr'e being recalled. Doesn't matter that some blocks don't come with oring grooves and users have to JB Weld the fittings.. But when Swiftech tells you that the Storm is outdated, or that we use state-of-the-art plating, you chose not to believe it. Fine, what can I say. Just remember one thing if any: WE gave water-block base bowing to the world, not a mere artifact resulting from a manufacturing process, but a conscious decision that we made to incorporate this technology in our offerings based on the knowledge developped from testing. Is bowing the way we do it now the end of the line? Not by a long shot. Right now, it indicates a certain road to follow: hydraulic performance is reaching a plateau, and work needs to be done on other aspects.

The fact that a few of you are putting pressure on us to make a Delrin top (forget brass) for this block is one thing. And maybe we will in the future.. after all if it can sell a few hundred more water-blocks, why would I be against it? But the objective reality is simple: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current process that we use to plate the GTX, period.

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Man the above is harsh, but facts are facts. What's spoken cannot be taken back. I don't see the significance of the bowing of the base. It uses a thicker o-ring for godsakes and that was after the Fuzion beat the crap out of the non-bowed GTX (if I recall correctly).

the facts are back...

The red highlight is exactly what I remembered about his declarations when I read the big thread during my research for the best waterblock. That's why I said here and on the other that this is a problem if Gabe said it can hold well with plating and corrosion cases pop up contradicting his claims...

the weird thing is that at first he wanted to go with performance and simplicity but listened to the ppl wanting bling. Here is what he didn't get is that we can get blingy with a copper top or cheaper with a delrin top to please 2 crowd. Copper can be nickel plated or painted (top only) to suit any needs.

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Originally Posted by AliG

I don't know about worth every penny, it should have been included in the first place:shakes:

the customer shouldn't have to pay because swiftech decided to go on the cheap

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WHY IN THE SAM HELL IS EVERYTHING CHEAP AS :banana::banana::banana::banana: AND BUILT LIKE :banana::banana::banana::banana: THESE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

Gabe what is the mil spec # so the croud can read the data/process involved.

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They are (and always have been), listed on Swiftech's site, in the "Specifications" portion for the GTX.

This is verbatim communication, but in public forum, so I will share with all of you.

I'm no lacky, so take these comments and interpret them whatever way you wish.

Regarding glycol, or lack thereof:

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Originally Posted by Gabe

yes this customer is admitedly running what he calls tap/demineralized water with no additive.

since when do we run only water in our cooling loops? all water-cooling systems must use an anti-corrosion/anti-fungal additive. algae alone will grow in a loop so fast that it will degrade the system in a matter of weeks.

people who say "I don't care that the guy is using pure water, swiftech should have known", might as well say "I don't care that the guy is using chloridric acid, Swiftech should have known."

Even distilled water used alone is unsafe, and will grow algea, which in term will promote mineralization and allow corrosion.

people have to start taking responsibility for their mistakes.

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Comments regarding XS:

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Originally Posted by Gabe

as I expected, reading the responses to my post at XS is hopeless. like "I've been using distilled water for 1 1/2 yr without additives in my system without any problems..." what this user doesn't say is how often he drained his system to exchange water-blocks. this doesn't make any sense. I refuse to talk to such biased individuals, fueling controversy.. useless, or even worse: counterproductive.

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Further remarks:

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Originally Posted by Gabe

Well I posted anyways, and look at the responses..

"I have been using pure distilled water for 1.5yr no problem". But he omitted to say that he is using a pure silver block (silver being a biocide), which apparently is one of 250 ever made, and telling everyone else, yes go ahead use pure distilled water!

My primary point is you shouldn't use pure distilled water without additives.

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Got a beef? Take the war to the intended recipient. Don't shoot the messenger, because the messenger may fire back with a bazooka.

This was the initial response to my request for comment:

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Originally Posted by Gabe

What do you want me to say? That we have sold thousands of these blocks, and seen no RMA to this date? The only point these guys are trying to make is that oxydation can occur, irrespective of the circumstances. Can your gas tank explode in your car?

You know, this is really a pity. We are working on new blocks, and we are questioning aluminum as a solution because a few vociferous individuals cry wolf, when the reality is that we have no problems. In the end, these people will be driving the price of the products up for the majority.

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This was the comment about accountability:

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Originally Posted by Gabe

The majority of the people are not dumb, and just because there are a few dummies out there does not mean that we have to make products just for them. There are protocols to respect in any technical environment.

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Just the messenger.

DILLIGAFF ?

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

MIL-C-26074E grade B.pdf Grade B - 0.0005-inch minimum layer

ASTM-B840-99 CLASS 1

TYPE A - COLORLESS
GRADE 1 - .00023

TYPE B - YELLOW CHROMATE
GRADE 2 - .00046

TYPE C - BRONZE CHROMATE
GRADE 3 - .00070

hmmm very thin when you get to class 6......microns

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You might want to re-evaluate your thoughts about that. My math tells me that Grade 6 should be almost .0012 thick, if each Grade is indeed a .00023 step.

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

bet you wont see that if sawed the gtx top in half

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If that's the case, there's no way Swiftech should be claiming that the top is plated according to that Spec.

I don't have a GTX (nor will I) so I can't say exactly how thick each layer of plating is. Personally, I've been warning ppl about the plating since it came out and I was over @ DD's forums. Something about using zinc (even if it is mixed with another metal) just didn't sit right with me, being a sacrificial metal in some anti-corrosion systems. :shrug:

so how do you go about fixing this corrosion? or does it only happen with certain coolants?

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Originally Posted by ZL1Killa

so how do you go about fixing this corrosion? or does it only happen with certain coolants?

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WOW talk about thread revival.

three easy ways to fight this:

1. if your using straight distilled, you need periodic flushes, like every 3-6months. 6 Months might be pushing it.
2. Use additives with some type of anti corrosion agent. Etyl Gly. is not an anti corrosive agent, its more of a biocide.
3. Get the GTX top gabe released because everyone complained and whinned about it. its 40 dollars but you never have to worry about a threadl ike this in your system ever.

There's no way in hell that's mil spec. Even my old (1930s era) trumpets had more plating than that in heavy wear areas (on the piston valves themselves.)

The rhetoric, hubris and out and out dog-stubborn bulls*** in this thread is amazing. In fact, it's enough to make sure I do two things.

1. Be sure I use silver in my loop, possibly to the point of silverplating blocks. I know full well its biocidal properties, and nikhsub1's recommendation seals the deal.

2. Under no circumstances will I purchase or recommend Swiftech to my customers, after the idiocy I have seen presented here. Gabe, whatever you know about waterblock design, you have shown to lack about the usage of the products, as well as seem to wish to reject all intelligent discussion, dismissing it as FUD or lack of knowledge. Nikhsub1 has more knowledge than most of us put together, and you insinuate that he is a fool and not even in full knowledge of the up/downtime of his loop. Having watercooled from the time of the Maze2 forward, I can remember other times that this occurred-I seem to remember Swiftech selling anodized blocks and AL rads before, way back when-and it bit your ass then, too. Even AC has dropped the Al and seems to be making some really top-level stuff-so when you decide to join the 21st century, drop us a line.

I watched this thread for a long, long time before posting. Petra, Nikhsub, Waterlogged, I appreciate your work here and elsewhere.

I got new power tools for early Christmas. I'm gonna get back to making my own case. I have WAYYYY too much invested in that project to let it alone for long...

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

WOW talk about thread revival.

three easy ways to fight this:

1. if your using straight distilled, you need periodic flushes, like every 3-6months. 6 Months might be pushing it.
2. Use additives with some type of anti corrosion agent. Etyl Alcho. is not an anti corrosive agent, its more of a biocide.
3. Get the GTX top gabe released because everyone complained and whinned about it. its 40 dollars but you never have to worry about a threadl ike this in your system ever.

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LOL!!! sorry, but I was looking into getting one of these, and lapping my 6400BE cpu