Storm vs. Apogee - Overclocking Ability

[orkan]

I start out by saying that I am a novice when it comes to the properties of thermodynamics. I do not carry expert knowledge of how heat transfers from one object to another. I am not an authority on waterblock performance, (nor do I claim to be) but my own results speak for themselves.

This morning I got my storm block from sidewinder, and have test results, as they relate to overclocking.

My loop: D4 pump > WhiteWater > dual bayres > BIX120 > Maze4GPU > BIX120 > D4 pump

Processor: X2 4400+ @ 1.65vcore
Mobo: DFI SLI-DR (N4D623-3 bios)
vid: x850xt @ 1.7vcore

Temps as reported by everest @ 100% load (dual prime95 for 30min)
I mounted each block 5 times to ensure good mounting. Results were the same. (spent all morning on this... lol)

Whitewater - 46c
Storm - 41c
Apogee - 41c

Whitewater in - GPU temp = 44c
Storm in - GPU temp = 44c
Apogee in - GPU temp = 42c

The apogee and storm ran identical load temps in my loop, as reported by everest. Due to the increased flowrate, my gpu temp was lowered by 2c when the apogee was in the loop. More flow in the maze4 helps a lot, as it is not an impingement block either. HOwever, it did not allow me to overclock the gpu any higher.

Originally, with the WhiteWater in the loop, I had a max stable overclock of 2.7ghz @ 1.65vcore 10x270. Higher voltage did not get me any higher clocks. With the Storm, I was able to get to 2.8ghz 10x280 stable at same voltage. With the apogee, I could not get past 2.7ghz.

I bought both blocks, so I could see for myself how they performed in my own system. I wanted to know which one would be the best for ME in MY system. Now I know. Which one cools the best? I don't know... Don't have the proper testing equipment to tell. Which one gave me the highest overclock? ... this I now know. The storm gave me another 100mhz @ the same voltage.

I seem to remember reading something about hotspots in the core, and how the Storm removes them due to the multiple impingement jets acting as their own micro-cooler... to cool more evenly or something?

As I say, I'm no thermodynamics proffessor... but I do know which block I like better. Even after all the crap I've been through with the apogee, I still was hoping it would perform better than the storm... because its cheaper and because it is smaller. Alas, in my case, this is not how it went down.

[nikhsub1]

Finally you have seen the light. You know the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water..."

[orkan]

lol... nik, I never did "disagree" with you per say... I just didnt like that everyone was throwing the apogee under the bus without any data out there at all. It was pure conjecture. Granted it was correct... ... but still conjecture. Guessing is as good as bad data in my eyes.

just so we are on the same page... I agree'd with most you said about the apogee vs storm threads... but just don't like propogating misinformation without "proof."

[nikhsub1]

Usually I am 100% with you, however, just the design of the Apogee it went against all possible physics for it to outperform even the 6002, let alone the Storm. Just an impossibility. Sure, measure IHS temp and they will be equal as shown and this is the whole issue. Anyway, I'm glad you enjoy it.

[AndrewZorn]

im not trying to start a fight i just dont understand this part,

Originally, with the WhiteWater in the loop, I had a max stable overclock of 2.7ghz @ 1.65vcore 10x270. Higher voltage did not get me any higher clocks. With the Storm, I was able to get to 2.8ghz 10x280 stable at same voltage. With the apogee, I could not get past 2.7ghz.

if temps were the same, how can max OC be different?

[aMp]

Because actual temps within the die, and even between different parts of the die, can be wildly different than those reported by a sensor implanted in only one location.

[Cathar]

if temps were the same, how can max OC be different?

For a discussion on how temps can be the same, read this post. The first three paragraphs are enough to explain the point.

As to how overclocking can differ. This depends on how well the IHS is being pushed against the CPU die in the critically important spots on the CPU. This can be due to any number of possible reasons, too many to repeat here. Has been discussed endlessly elsewhere. What it comes down to is that the hottest portions of the CPU aren't being cooled as well, for whatever reason (typically CPU-Die->IHS->waterblock interactional variations).

Had Orkan used a different CPU, the results could well be different. This is the exact problem with IHS's.

[orkan]

Had Orkan used a different CPU, the results could well be different. This is the exact problem with IHS's.

Exactly why I emphasized the "my loop" and "my system" when explaining my results.

[sluflyer06]

well according to informatin i've read written by Cathar the way the storm cools the processor is can cause the internal temp diode in the cpu to read slightly off . I've seen this happpen many times now (the same temp higher overclock phenomenom).

[idleuser]

what's your ambient temps when you took the test? As I recall the dual core processor runs extremely hot. I am running only on 1.48vcore and my load is close to 48-50C on my opteron 148 overclocked to 2.9ghz.

Loop consist of mcp 600, bix2, tdx nozzle #1, Dual Reservoir.

Why is there so much variation in temperture with yours compare to mines? 46 C on 1.65vcore and on a Dual Processor generates less heat than an opteron 148 at 1.48vcore?

[AndrewZorn]

For a discussion on how temps can be the same, read this post. The first three paragraphs are enough to explain the point.

As to how overclocking can differ. This depends on how well the IHS is being pushed against the CPU die in the critically important spots on the CPU. This can be due to any number of possible reasons, too many to repeat here. Has been discussed endlessly elsewhere. What it comes down to is that the hottest portions of the CPU aren't being cooled as well, for whatever reason (typically CPU-Die->IHS->waterblock interactional variations).

Had Orkan used a different CPU, the results could well be different. This is the exact problem with IHS's.

wow, the mighty cathar chose to respond to me!

don't worry, i bought your product, the storm! it just confused me with the temps.

this can perhaps explain why i get 29*C idle and cannot go over 2.6ghz on air.

[orkan]

Different CPU's = Different temperatures. Not to mention different boards read sensors differently. Many many reasons idleuser. Read more.

[idleuser]

Well I have a DFI Ultra-d running on 623-3 bios and they use the same sensor as SLI-DR as I recall the only difference is the abiility to run sli other than that the board is virtually identical and I do know that not all sensor are created equally. However, I do know for a fact that your cpu does gives off more heat. 1, being dual core and 2 it's running on more vcore than mines but yet your temperture results are better than mines not only that.. you have an inferior radiator that can't dissipate more heat than mines and you are running a maze 4 gpu block that essentially puts more heat into the loop.

[Vapor]

While I have no doubt the Storm is superior to the Apogee.....I don't think the difference between the two was 100MHz

Post edited to avoid off course remarks.

[lv_dicedealer]

While I have no doubt the Storm is superior to the Apogee.....I don't think the difference between the two was 100MHz

I didn't even gain that much from going to a TDX and no IHS from stock cooling with IHS

You, sir, have one messed up watercooling rig if there was less than 100MHz change between STOCK cooling and water... or you got a pile-of-steaming-dog-turd cpu.
Watercooling is like growing plants, it requires water.

As for the 100MHz difference between blocks at the same temp; have you ever witnessed differences in temps just comparing successive mountings of the hsf (known as repeatability in those pretty little graphs) ??

[nikhsub1]

Who let the dogs out? http://www.systemcooling.com/forums/...ndpost&p=33173

[Vapor]

EDIT: I still doubt the 100MHz, that's A LOT. A lot more than I'd spot between a Maze3 and a Storm, TBH.

No way the Apogee is worse than the Maze3

I doubt how hard he pushed on the Apogee--I've had a 160MHz gain by taking a break for a day and coming back and pushing harder.

Unless others can corroborate data here, I'm chucking this 100MHz delta out the window.

[orkan]

Well I have a DFI Ultra-d running on 623-3 bios and they use the same sensor as SLI-DR as I recall the only difference is the abiility to run sli other than that the board is virtually identical and I do know that not all sensor are created equally. However, I do know for a fact that your cpu does gives off more heat. 1, being dual core and 2 it's running on more vcore than mines but yet your temperture results are better than mines not only that.. you have an inferior radiator that can't dissipate more heat than mines and you are running a maze 4 gpu block that essentially puts more heat into the loop.

I've got TWO bix's... not one, with 1 100+CFM fan on each side push/pull. Also... you just don't seem to get it through your head that the IHS bond on your cpu may be completely different than mine. READ MORE FORUMS! Comparing temps from one system to the next is all but pointless.

[chinkgai]

nice results ork

did you remount a couple times to make sure for each?

[orkan]

did you remount a couple times to make sure for each?

5 times per block

[lv_dicedealer]

5 times per block

That is more than I would care to attempt....

Good work there orkan!

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

EDIT: I still doubt the 100MHz, that's A LOT. A lot more than I'd spot between a Maze3 and a Storm, TBH.

No way the Apogee is worse than the Maze3

I doubt how hard he pushed on the Apogee--I've had a 160MHz gain by taking a break for a day and coming back and pushing harder.

Unless others can corroborate data here, I'm chucking this 100MHz delta out the window.

if he did 5 remounts per block, I don't doubt he pushed equally hard with all 3 in OCing. was the 100mhz delta repeated every time fairly consistently?
God you people tempt me to do so many things to my loop; you go through 5 mounts and all these blocks and I'm too lazy to un-juryrig my mount or pop the top... I'm such a lazy banana.

[menlatin]

IHS? ppffttt... strip that biatch!!

[Vapor]

if he did 5 remounts per block, I don't doubt he pushed equally hard with all 3 in OCing. was the 100mhz delta repeated every time fairly consistently?
God you people tempt me to do so many things to my loop; you go through 5 mounts and all these blocks and I'm too lazy to un-juryrig my mount or pop the top... I'm such a lazy banana.

I don't question the mounting, the temps show that it's fine (heck, I mount and tighten in BIOS to monitor temps and ensure good contact). I just REALLY see no way the difference between modern blocks is 100MHz. That's just unfathomable to me.

[chinkgai]

That is more than I would care to attempt....

Good work there orkan!

QFT