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Thread: Intel announces reverse hyper threading

  1. #1
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    Intel announces reverse hyper threading

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/dis...ore_Chips.html

    lol, first amd was rumored to be working on something like this, despite huge interest in a tech like this AMD officially DENIED to work on anything like this ( ) and now intel seems to have pulled it off, lol
    i wonder if it went anything like this:

    amd fanboy: amd will have reverse ht!
    001: OMG! winn!!!!
    002: OMGWTF wicked!
    003: WANT!!!!
    amd: huh? no... we wont have any reverse ht...
    intel: hmmmm you guys want reverse ht? ok, here you go
    001: ill pay 50$!
    002: 200!
    003: where do i send the $$$?
    amd: ...

    Researchers from Intel Labs Barcelona have developed “Anaphase” technology, which is a novel hardware/software hybrid approach to leverage multiple cores in order to improve single-thread performance on multi-core processors. This research focuses on different speculative techniques to automatically partition single thread applications to be processed on multiple cores.

    combining cores for executing single-thread applications in a multi-core design by more than 10% on average on Spec2006 for all configurations. Moreover, single-thread performance is improved by 41% on average when the proposed scheme is used on a so-called “tiny-core” (Intel did not reveal, what tiny-core actually is, but it may potentially be a part of the company’s SSC 48-core processor), and up to 2.6 times for some selected applications.
    saweeeeeet
    Last edited by saaya; 05-20-2010 at 10:57 PM.

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    AMD needs to pull something out of their sleeves to at least catch out Intel, because if intel keeps going like their are doing AMD could be worse than their are now
    ░█▀▀ ░█▀█ ░█ ░█▀▀ ░░█▀▀ ░█▀█ ░█ ░█ ░░░
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    ░▀▀▀ ░▀ ░░░▀ ░▀▀▀ ░░▀ ░░░▀░▀ ░▀ ░▀▀▀ ░

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    Really, I'm not an Intel fanboy, but Intel are just completely rofflestomping all over AMD and have been doing for a long time.

    Multicore CPUs that allow all the cores to boost single threaded performance? Definate must buy for me.

    What is wrong with AMD?

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    so.....this finally resolves the whole dual core vs. quad-core debate(obviously this would be implemented with more cores, but you get the point).

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    holy damn... amd, i hope there's a rabbit in that hat, you've had your hand in there for some time now...
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    There were rumors a couple years ago of AMD's Fusion APUs to have this kind of capability, but those turned out false.

    Before calling anything on this, I'd like to see Intel demonstrate it on a desktop processor, not something like Larrabee. I'm by no means calling this impossible, or even improbable, I just want to see it demonstrated processing real-world workloads.

    I think it's also extremely important to note:

    The proposed technique features a set of novel hardware mechanisms that support the execution of threads generated at compile time. These threads result from a fine-grain speculative decomposition of the original application and they are executed under a modified multi-core system...
    Therefore, existing applications will need to be recompiled (likely with Intel's compiler) in order to take advantage of this, and I'm just going to take a shot in the dark and say all applications won't see Intel's 41% improved single thread performance boost.

    For the record, I think this is an amazing and great technology, and I can only hope it will make it to desktop/mobile processors. I'm of course hoping AMD has something similar in the works.
    Last edited by ExodusC; 05-20-2010 at 11:25 PM.

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    I'm no CPU specialist myself, but it's tempting to post ArsTechnica's comment on "RHT" (last time we heard of it):

    Quote Originally Posted by ArsTechnica

    Reverse hyperthreading? Um, no.

    By Jon Stokes | Last updated July 13, 2006 8:17 PM


    Thank God the Inquirer finally put the whole "reverse hyperthreading" thing to rest with an admission that such a technology is not, in fact, coming to AMD processors. Judging by the volume of questions I got about this, a fairly large number of people were taken in by this canard. I never bothered to report on it, for much the same reason that Nobel Intent doesn't report on, say, the latest theories about how the US government is using HAARP to manipulate the weather. But because the Inquirer seems to be trying to shift the blame for this nonsense subtly onto AMD, I'll go ahead and explain why, no, it's not something AMD "would like to have" or that they'd ever consider.

    Anatomy of a fabrication

    In case you haven't been following the whole reverse hyperthreading saga, here it is in a nutshell. The Inquirer originally posted a report to the effect that AMD's forthcoming dual-core processors would be able to present themselves to the OS as a single CPU, sort of opposite the way that a single-core Pentium 4 with hyperthreading can present itself to the OS as two separate processors. Here's the meat of the article:


    "It seems that all AM2 CPUs were outfitted with a support for Reverse-HyperThreading, an architectural change which enables software to think that it is working on a single-core alone. By combining two cores, the company has been able to produce the six IPC "core" that will go head to head against four IPC "core" from Conroe/Merom/WoodCrest combo.

    It seems that in certain cases, even an old AMD Athlon 64 3800+ can wipe the floor with Core 2 Duo E6300 CPU."


    First off, there's no way this would work the way the author seems to think it would. How would the cores' pipelines support this in any phase of execution? In the fetch phase, there would have to be some arbitration mechanism whereby the two cores fetched alternate instruction blocks from the I-cache, thus distributing the instruction stream across two processors.

    Then, once the instruction stream is fragmented inside the two cores, how are the register files kept in sync? If an add in one line of code writes its result to a register in one core, then how could a test instruction in the other core read that distant register to see if it needs to branch? Or how would out-of-order execution work across two cores? Would the instruction schedulers have their own separate bus to communicate over?

    Anyway, it's not worth going into too much detail here, because it's kind of like asking how Superman could lift an entire continent up into space without it breaking apart, or how he manages to fly in the first place, and so on.

    Stick a fork in this one, because it's done.
    http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/07/7263.ars
    Last edited by Quintero; 05-20-2010 at 11:24 PM.

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    Gentlemen -- let's take an objective step back, a quick look through history. From 2003 to Q3 2006, AMD stomped all over Intel. Intel reversed themselves and released a great product no doubt, and AMD struggled as a result. But since Shanghai/Deneb, AMD has been hitting on all cylinders, each small step closing the gap. The recent Thuban is a good example of how well (and how far) they have come since going through, arguably, the most tenuous period of their history.

    My take -- the struggle to stay ahead or to take the lead, which ever the case may be, is only good for me, more toys to play with...

    Now, onto the 'reverse hyperthreading', yeah Theo Valich broke the rumor in typical Theo fashion as he posses two traits that are dangerous when mixed: ignorance and gullibility ... his interpretation, and on that many took up and ran with, was, frankly, laughable. However, the premise of speeding up single threaded performance over several execution resources is not so far fetched, this has been researched for quite a while in the guise of speculative execution. Intel has (still is?) researched something similar to this and it was reported many years ago at the height of the 'reverse hyperthreading' craze .. http://www.dvhardware.net/article6594.html . AMD actually published a patent on the concept as well, slightly different implementation but similar result.

    Speculation is nothing new:
    http://www.princeton.edu/~rblee/ELE5...roc_akkary.pdf
    http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/users/tullsen/pldi2005.pdf

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6574725 (AMD patent)

    Jack
    Last edited by JumpingJack; 05-20-2010 at 11:40 PM.
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    this would be a really really huge breakthrough wouldn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
    Really, I'm not an Intel fanboy, but Intel are just completely rofflestomping all over AMD and have been doing for a long time.

    Multicore CPUs that allow all the cores to boost single threaded performance? Definate must buy for me.

    What is wrong with AMD?

    Over AMD's life, Intel's always been ahead, except for that small 3 yr. run of the Athlon 64 vs. Netburst Intel cpus.

    Outside that, AMD's always played the doormat to Intel. Consider.....AMD releases the world's fastest 386 cpu, while Intel already had 486 cpus on the market for almost a year. AMD releases the fastest 486 cpu while Intel already had their Pentium on the market, again, for almost a year. That's been pretty much the history of AMD vs. Intel.....and now it's getting worse for AMD.

    I think the embarrassment Intel suffered during the Netburst days really lit a fire under them and I don't see AMD ever catching Intel, as long as Intel keeps up this pace.

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    This research focuses on different speculative techniques to automatically partition single thread applications to be processed on multiple cores.
    the first thing comes to my mind when i read this line is ...... O/S support

    my guess would be the more trouble for M$
    remember that time, when 2-core came up and the O/S are unable to support it? and multi-core etc

    but as far i know from the past ... it's gonna be a very very long journey of o/s services packs and complier patches before it actually comes to play ...

    but it's gonna be interesting ...

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    That is actually much more insightful into this technology.

    I suppose it's no surprise Intel has already done research into a hardware only based solution to this problem, and the fact that they have numbers to compare this software/hardware approach to makes me wonder if they already had an experimental processor capable of the hardware only approach...

    I guess it goes to show they really do a lot of experimental R&D, not just making their architectures faster/smaller. Then again, we also saw this with Hyperthreading, Turbo Boost, etc.

    Also, the thread title says "announces," while it's more of an outlining of the technology... Like I said, we have no way if this will even make it into consumer systems.

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    Great news and good job. I wonder how much Windows 7 users can gain with this. This is a topic I want to study further.

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    I don't see why everyone is making a big deal about this. Seems like all the Intel fanboys are gloating about how it will trump whatever AMD offers as if Intel is going to incorporate this into their desktop CPUs anytime soon (they won't, and it certainly wouldn't even be as soon as Haswell). Besides that, this isn't anything new as both AMD and Intel already have patents on speculative threading (AMD only denied incorporating into their processors, not that they haven't researched it). Furthermore, this announcement in particular isn't even a big deal since in the article it states it's only a 10% improvement over existing hardware-only SpMT designs and...

    which is a novel hardware/software hybrid approach
    Oh! Like Itanium! Worked so well the last time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metroid View Post
    Great news and good job. I wonder how much Windows 7 users can gain with this. This is a topic I want to study further.
    Here are a few more links to topics on speculative threading:
    http://liberty.princeton.edu/Publica...calability.pdf
    http://personals.ac.upc.edu/antonio/...1999_paper.pdf (interesting concept, used SMT, aka hyperthreading to speculative thread and 'reverse hyperthread' )
    http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~jbrown/papers/sp-cmp.pdf
    http://www.ece.lsu.edu/tca/papers/collins-01.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingJack View Post
    Here are a few more links to topics on speculative threading:
    http://liberty.princeton.edu/Publica...calability.pdf
    http://personals.ac.upc.edu/antonio/...1999_paper.pdf (interesting concept, used SMT, aka hyperthreading to speculative thread and 'reverse hyperthread' )
    http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~jbrown/papers/sp-cmp.pdf
    http://www.ece.lsu.edu/tca/papers/collins-01.pdf
    Thank you Jack

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    wow amazing thats good stuff
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    I don't understand that hype. It is hardware/software solution and autoparallelization of single-threaded code was in ICC for several years. The new part is that Intel added something to hardware to make creation of new threads "cheaper", that allows to make shorter threads and not to lose performance benefit because of synchronization overhead. AMD develops hardware extensions for "cheaper" threads too. Check what ASF stands for on AMD's developer site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by resar View Post
    I don't see why everyone is making a big deal about this. Seems like all the Intel fanboys are gloating about how it will trump whatever AMD offers as if Intel is going to incorporate this into their desktop CPUs anytime soon (they won't, and it certainly wouldn't even be as soon as Haswell). Besides that, this isn't anything new as both AMD and Intel already have patents on speculative threading (AMD only denied incorporating into their processors, not that they haven't researched it). Furthermore, this announcement in particular isn't even a big deal since in the article it states it's only a 10% improvement over existing hardware-only SpMT designs and...



    Oh! Like Itanium! Worked so well the last time...
    maybe AMD could not get the world dominating os maker, aka Microsoft to support them into launching it ...

    unlike Intel however, the had a larger market margin ... negotiation would be easier, least much favorable

    to pull this new technology requires the os to comply with it ... as the os is the platform to convert human programming language to machine language + additional instruction, so the app will run just like the white paper mentioned ..... it won't work if M$ shuns it .... and Intel cannot possibly depend on other minor o/s to market its tech ....

    well .. let's see what M$ response to this ... things like this requires both major parties to work together. not sure about M$, they already dominate the o/s market, if the say yes, then it'll be something to celebrate

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
    Really, I'm not an Intel fanboy, but Intel are just completely rofflestomping all over AMD and have been doing for a long time.

    Multicore CPUs that allow all the cores to boost single threaded performance? Definate must buy for me.

    What is wrong with AMD?
    When you have milions to back up research, i'm not really surprised (considering what a behemoth Intel is compared to AMD).

    Quote Originally Posted by Humminn55 View Post
    Over AMD's life, Intel's always been ahead, except for that small 3 yr. run of the Athlon 64 vs. Netburst Intel cpus.

    Outside that, AMD's always played the doormat to Intel. Consider.....AMD releases the world's fastest 386 cpu, while Intel already had 486 cpus on the market for almost a year. AMD releases the fastest 486 cpu while Intel already had their Pentium on the market, again, for almost a year. That's been pretty much the history of AMD vs. Intel.....and now it's getting worse for AMD.

    I think the embarrassment Intel suffered during the Netburst days really lit a fire under them and I don't see AMD ever catching Intel, as long as Intel keeps up this pace.
    Sorry, but that's just not true. I remember Athlon K7 (Thunderbird) were far more efficient and 1GHz CPU was as fast as 1,2GHz Intel. The trend continued with AthlonXP (Palomino) where the difference was significantly higher. And then Athlon64 came. Same trend and first 64bit instructions ever.
    First Phenom's were kinda dissapointing, but Phenom II catched up the pace again. AMD is also the first to have commercially available 6 core processors (Intel was first to release them but they were nowhere to be seen).
    AMD could always have superior processors but they simply failed to gain any market share because of mostly dirty Intel business practices with OEM's.
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    So, no ETA?
    And since Bulldozer should have improved ST performance, I can see why Intel is working on this. Hope they can pull it off.
    41% on average doesn't seem to realistic to me, though, but will see..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentarius View Post
    maybe AMD could not get the world dominating os maker, aka Microsoft to support them into launching it ...
    Or it turns out it really wasn't all that great an idea to implement in a production design due to the tradeoff in complexity, die size, and power consumption.

    to pull this new technology requires the os to comply with it ... as the os is the platform to convert human programming language to machine language + additional instruction
    Umm...no, that's the compiler.

    it won't work if M$ shuns it .... and Intel cannot possibly depend on other minor o/s to market its tech ....

    well .. let's see what M$ response to this ... things like this requires both major parties to work together. not sure about M$, they already dominate the o/s market, if the say yes, then it'll be something to celebrate
    I already mentioned it earlier, just because Intel got some cool results from a research project doesn't mean it will ever make it into a processor. This kind of speculative multithreading has already been done by Intel and AMD, yet it's not in any of their current chips or planned for the next-generation. There's obviously a reason for this. Even if Intel was going to implement this it wouldn't be anytime soon, certainly not in Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, or Haswell.

    You guys are hyping this for no reason. It's cool, but it's not new or practical and you won't be seeing it soon.

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    Intel has a better chance of persuading MS then AMD. I guess that should be obvious.
    This is indeed a very interesting tech that could be useful for us gamers in the future. After this tech matures a bit and with more cores to come we could potentially see a substantial increase in single threaded apps
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    Finally. Mitosis was firstly revealed about 5 years ago. Looking forward to see it in an upcoming cpus.

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