Dual Xeon Workstation: Air Vs. Watercooling Advice.

[LUCI5R]

I have a thread running in the Intel section about my new build; however, I have two main issues I'm needing help on (GPU & Cooling) which appear to be outside the bounds of that Forum. Most of the information can be had here (Link), but I'll put in the relevant here.

I'm building a new Dual-Socket Xeon E5-2600 V2 Series based Workstation for 2 primary uses, CGI Rendering (Maya / Maxwell / Zbrush / RealFlow) and Gaming (RTS ONLY!! No FPS/Crysis, etc.).

This thread is focused on the Cooling issue. I'm extremely undecided between Air cooling & Water cooling.

I have never done Water cooling before; so there is a n00b risk involved (leakage; proper installation, etc.), but at the same time - as a long-time custom builder, I'm extremely interested & anxious to try my first Water cooling -- The only possible hardware mod I haven't put my hands on yet. Also, I live California, and although I have an A/C in the room where the machine will sit, I don't necessarily run the A/C 24/7. The Workstation will generally *NOT* be running 24/7 either -- EXCEPT when Rendering. It could be running for 5 days or 10 days non-stop when rendering!! All CPU Cores running at 100% continuously during rendering will generate heat - regardless of Xeon or not. It's a fact.

On the other hand, Xeon's don't overclock & Watercooling is traditionally synchronous with Overclocking. More importantly, even though I will be starting with a single CPU, I will be adding a 2nd CPU within 3 ~ 6 months. Watercooling a single CPU is obviously far easier & probably a good starter then Watercooling 2 CPU's. Air cooling 2 CPU's is a breeze (no pun intended!).

Cost is not an issue here; which favors Watercooling since it's more expensive then Air.

There's obviously arguments that favor/disfavor both; so to sum it up:

Air Cooling
Pros:
- Simple & Cheaper; No leakage risks; No technical knowledge required.
- Easy & Simple support for 2 CPU's.
- Practically Maintenance-Free.
- Xeon's can't Overclock; No OC'ing involved.

Cons:
- Not sure if it's enough for continuous multiple-day spanning rendering jobs w/ CPU Cores at Constant 100%
- California Heat!! Not running room A/C 24/7 even when Workstation running 24/7 for rendering.
- Definitely not as cool at Water cooling
- No fun installing & running Air! (I know - pathetic excuse - sorry!)

Water Cooling
Pros:
- Learning something new; way cooler then Air cooling
- Will keep CPU's cool during rendering job; even with room A/C off.
- Cost is not an issue; will complement an otherwise powerful rendering & gaming beast.

Cons:
- Leakage risks; learning curve; possible mishaps & disasters!!
- Xeon's can't Overclock; Watercooling for stock speeds!

I want to make a good, informative choice, and I'm hoping members here can push me on one side or another.

Thanks!

FYI: Current "early" possible(s) ...

CPU: Xeon E5-2660 V2 (September 2013) -- $1,590
Motherboard: ASUS .OR. Supermicro (Undecided/Waiting to see new models for Xeon V2) -- (Approx. $400)
GPU: 2 * 8000 Series Crossfire (September 2013) -- (Approx $850)
Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster Z 70SB150000000 5.1 PCI Express x1 -- $90
Memory: 2 * Kingston 16GB (4 x 4GB) 1600 ECC Unbuffered -- $356
PSU: Corsair AX1200 GOLD .OR. Thermaltake Grand TPG-1200M GOLD -- (Approx $250)
SSD: 2 * SAMSUNG 830 Series MZ-7PC128B/WW 2.5" 128GB SATA III MLC (RAID1) -- $199
HDD: Seagate ST2000DM001 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s -- $99
Case: Thermaltake Level 10 GT (VN10001W2N) -- $239
Cooling: Air .OR. Corsair H100i Liquid Cooling -- $99
Monitor: ASUS VE278H Black 27" 2ms (GTG) HDMI Widescreen LED -- $249
Keyboard: Microsoft SIDEWINDER X4 -- $49
Mouse: Razor Orochi Bluetooth (Already Own) -- $0

[paulbagz]

Will a GT fit an EATX 2P Motherboard?

That case isn't the greatest for H20 either, not for that level of heatware going in it.

-PB

[lowfat]

That case definitely won't fit any EATX boards. Watercooling isn't really necessary either. Not being able to overclock the CPUs really drops the need for water.

[LUCI5R]

Will a GT fit an EATX 2P Motherboard?

That case isn't the greatest for H20 either, not for that level of heatware going in it.

-PB

That case definitely won't fit any EATX boards. Watercooling isn't really necessary either. Not being able to overclock the CPUs really drops the need for water.

Not all 2P Motherboards I've looked at are EATX; there are actually some ATX 2P Server Motherboards. However, GT is not a definite - obviously the motherboard is more critical and will decide the Case; so GT can be dropped in favor of an EATX. Case is not the issue here.

And yes, I agree that Watercooling is not "necessary" since there's no OC'ing involved; I would still "prefer" Watercooling for those constant rendering periods where all Cores will be running @ 100% continuously for a considerable amount of time. However, what I'm trying ascertain is if Watercooling is a consciously better/reasonable choice here, AND, if it can accomplished without major headaches & problems.

If you wish to suggest a better Case - preferably EATX - better suited for Watercooling for a 2P System; and a Kit or or Custom Build for the same - I'm all ears!!

Thanks guys.

[LUCI5R]

That case definitely won't fit any EATX boards.

Just wanted to put in a quick post; every place is clearly stating that the Thermaltake Level 10 GT supports both ATX & EATX (Newegg, Xioxide, Amazon, Thermaltake, etc.) ... so I'm not sure why you're stating "that case definitely won't fit any EATX board". It's one of the top picks for EATX boards on some forums & stores. Either you're misinformed or everyone else is.

I'm also looking at Azza Fusion 4000 which is the same price and is a lot bigger; but at this point I have no reason to doubt that Level 10 GT will fit an EATX.

Thanks.

[paulbagz]

Still depends on the board though as some are more stranger form factors then EATX, some good be HTPX types etc.

My comment was mainly aimed at lack of radiator space in those things if you chose to go down the H20 path.

-PB

[LUCI5R]

Still depends on the board though as some are more stranger form factors then EATX, some good be HTPX types etc.

My comment was mainly aimed at lack of radiator space in those things if you chose to go down the H20 path.

-PB

Yes, radiator space is definitely a concern for me. A YouTube review on the Thermaltake GT 10 did show space for 2 radiators; but as I stated in my previous post, I'm looking at the Azza Fusion 4000 that supports "XL-ATX, E-ATX, Full ATX, and Micro ATX" motherboards and supports up to 3 Radiators, 480mm, 360mm & 120mm. IF I do decide to go with Water Cooling, I do have to consider that I would eventually need to Watercool 2 processors - and I will definitely need some in-depth knowledge & advice on that from people who's done that first-hand. A case that can support more then 1 radiator definitely helps; even if they are different sizes.

Link: http://azzatek.com/csaz-4000.html

The 2P Motherboards I'm looking at aren't anything peculiar or extraordinary; I have looked at least 3 regular ATX choices & a couple EATX Standard designs; staying away from "Proprietary" form factors - so I don't think the Motherboard itself will be an issue. And I think the other members post about GT not fitting any EATX board is quite false.

[lowfat]

It may fit but it would cover up all the cable management holes. It would likely be a nightmare to work on.

[LUCI5R]

It may fit but it would cover up all the cable management holes. It would likely be a nightmare to work on.

You could be right about that, I haven't considered that. For that, I'll look around & see if I can find first hand experience from someone using an EATX 2P w/ GT. I do find it odd that the mnfg & some other credible stores would market it for EATX if it's really not conducive to it.

Either way, the thread seems to be shifting more towards Case then my actual issue of deciding between Air & Water.

I'd like to get opinions from anyone who have actually watercooled Dual-Xeons in a workstation. Easy decision here is to Air cool & forget about water; but is still like to explore the possibility of is really not that extra-ordinary.

Thanks.

[Movieman]

You could be right about that, I haven't considered that. For that, I'll look around & see if I can find first hand experience from someone using an EATX 2P w/ GT. I do find it odd that the mnfg & some other credible stores would market it for EATX if it's really not conducive to it.

Either way, the thread seems to be shifting more towards Case then my actual issue of deciding between Air & Water.

I'd like to get opinions from anyone who have actually watercooled Dual-Xeons in a workstation. Easy decision here is to Air cool & forget about water; but is still like to explore the possibility of is really not that extra-ordinary.

Thanks.

I've done both water and air..realistically unless your workspace doesn't have AC or is the size of a closet air is just fine.
Goof top HS and top fans are a must but air is just fine.

[LUCI5R]

I've done both water and air..realistically unless your workspace doesn't have AC or is the size of a closet air is just fine.
Goof top HS and top fans are a must but air is just fine.

The issue with AC is that I don't run it all the time; and won't be running it 24/7 even if the machine is rendering a project (which can realistically take days). And here in California, it's always hot!

Add to it my personal interest in getting my first watercooled setup running. If I realistically, successfully can setup water-cooling for a dual Xeon setup, then I'd much rather do water then air. My only apprehension is that I've never watercooled before & I don't want to be that guy who leaked water over his $4k machine destroying everything doing his first watercooling setup!

I know I'm going to need advice & suggestions - from picking the right parts to installation, testing, everything - as opposed to air that I can just pick up noctua's or something and it's all over. So that's the thing.

[lowfat]

I am building a 2P watercooled system on a Z9PE-D8 WS in my signature (CMS83X). It isn't in either of the cases you were looking at but it might give you some ideas if you indeed decide to go w/ water. But honestly I don't think you'd see much of a difference in temperatures between water and a pair of Hyper 212s w/ some good fans.

[LUCI5R]

I am building a 2P watercooled system on a Z9PE-D8 WS in my signature (CMS83X). It isn't in either of the cases you were looking at but it might give you some ideas if you indeed decide to go w/ water. But honestly I don't think you'd see much of a difference in temperatures between water and a pair of Hyper 212s w/ some good fans.

Ah! A first hand build; Don't be surprised if I start picking your brain.

I have to say - you have TREMENDOUS photography skills! Amazing photographs there. You definitely know your way around the camera. I'm a CGI artist and have a lot of photography (mostly motion) involved in the rendering process; so I do appreciate good photography quite seriously. Enough OT though.

What kind of CPU's are you using in that build?
Can you share some of the Watercooling parts you are using? I'm assuming you're doing a lot of custom-building (you seem to be good with that) which might be out of my bounds, considering this is my first Watercooling; still - it would help give me an idea of what I might be looking at.

I do agree with you; I may not necessarily see a big temperature difference between good Air & Water, but like I said, part of it is an "interest/hobby" related factor - and not all "practical benefit" factor.

In terms of Air, I'm looking at CM Hyper 212 EVO, V6 GT, TPC-612 & TPC-812. If you had to, which one would you recommend? And what kind of Fans (I really have no knowledge about fans to go with a certain Heatsink), if required, to replace the originals?

In terms of Water, I've been looking at the Corsair Hydro H100i which features a 240mm Radiator.

Per my research, the Thermaltake Level 10 GT can support One 240MM Radiator & Two 120MM Radiators. The AZZA Fusion 4000 can support One 480MM, One 240MM and One 120MM Radiators. So my feeling is, I would have to possibly opt for One 240MM and One 120MM Radiator in order to Watercool 2 CPU's. I don't know if it's possible to Watercool 2 CPU's with one Radiator.

I know professional/hardcore Watercooling folks would never use a "Kit" kind of scenario -- but you have to keep in mind that I'm a Watercooling n00b and there is no way that I will be able to "build" a custom cooling solution from bare parts like some of you guys can.

Remember, my Case is *NOT* going to be deciding my parts; My parts are going to be deciding what Case I need to get. So Case isn't the ultimate objective here.

So anyhow, give me your thoughts when you get a chance.

Thanks!!

[lowfat]

I am using a pair of E5-2660 engineering samples.

For watercooling parts I am using a pair of EK Supreme HF waterblocks, A DDC-1T pump, some no-name reservoir and a Magicool 2x140mm radiator. All the parts I had laying around from other older builds.

I'd personally grab the 212 EVOs since they are cheap . The stock fans they come w/ aren't bad. They use PWM so they should ramp up in speed when the CPUs are under load. Personally I am not a fan of the sealed all in one water coolers. I have always found their pumps to be extremely annoying in noise.

[LUCI5R]

I am using a pair of E5-2660 engineering samples.

For watercooling parts I am using a pair of EK Supreme HF waterblocks, A DDC-1T pump, some no-name reservoir and a Magicool 2x140mm radiator. All the parts I had laying around from other older builds.

I'd personally grab the 212 EVOs since they are cheap . The stock fans they come w/ aren't bad. They use PWM so they should ramp up in speed when the CPUs are under load. Personally I am not a fan of the sealed all in one water coolers. I have always found their pumps to be extremely annoying in noise.

Thanks for all that info on the parts you're using. If I have to Watercool, I basically need two complete kits, correct? I can't actually use one set of parts to cool both CPU's?

I can also understand you, and most other people experienced with watercooling, not being a fan of pre-made kits like the Corsair H100i, but you have to think from the perspective of a Watercooling n00b; someone who has never watercooled before and doesn't even yet know all about the parts & methods involved. I saw a detailed youtube video on setting up & installing the H100i and it looked fairly easy and something I definitely feel I can do. That's the only reason I'm considering it.

Noise is not an issue for me; I'm not looking for anything super-quiet. It's never quiet where I am; and there's always music or radio or something running when I'm working. I'm really not concerned about noise at all; just not on my checklist.

You also have to consider, if I'm able to setup Watercooling successfully using something "Simpler", in a year or so I can always upgrade & get something better. I can't jump into something complicated on my first try.

So that all being the case; aside from the noise issue -- my question to you about something like the H100i (And not necessarily that exact same model/brand), is that can something like that * 2 (for dual Xeons) work for me?

If I do go with air, will definitely keep the 212's at the top of the list.

Thanks - Appreciate the responses.

[m_jones_]

No need to spend all of that extra money if you don't care about noise too much, just stick with aircooling and stick some nice high rpm fans with decent overall specs and away you go.

[Conumdrum]

Do not buy two H100i for two CPU's. They have a pretty high failure rate and a top air cooler is only 3-4C worse than the very best 120x2 AIO unit, and the H100i isn't the best AIO anyway. The software sucks and most people replace the fans or go to manual fan control. Corsair don't care, it's a retail outfit for the uninformed (YOU) when it comes to watercooling. You're asking for trouble, big time. More like DOWN TIME.

If your rendering, you don't want errors, or problems after 3-10 hours of rendering work. You need reliability. Reliability is possible in WCing. You spend 2-3 months learning (like an IT guy new at new tech) and spend money to make it right. In this case $600 easy, because you'll want dual pumps in series and a flow gauge (a good one ain't cheap) and a great controller to monitor it. $400 MINIMUM...........

Or you buy two $80 air cooled heatsinks and good to go......................... Air don't fail, well very very rarely.............

Even the Hyper 212 EVO would be fine. Under $100 for BOTH with upgraded fans. Cheaper. Won't make the room any cooler, physics says so.

Your choice of CPU air coolers, have you Goggled those coolers performance at multiple sites and seen what's the best, Or are you reading Newegg reviews?

I been at WCing for a while.................

[LUCI5R]

Do not buy two H100i for two CPU's. They have a pretty high failure rate and a top air cooler is only 3-4C worse than the very best 120x2 AIO unit, and the H100i isn't the best AIO anyway. The software sucks and most people replace the fans or go to manual fan control. Corsair don't care, it's a retail outfit for the uninformed (YOU) when it comes to watercooling. You're asking for trouble, big time. More like DOWN TIME.

If your rendering, you don't want errors, or problems after 3-10 hours of rendering work. You need reliability. Reliability is possible in WCing. You spend 2-3 months learning (like an IT guy new at new tech) and spend money to make it right. In this case $600 easy, because you'll want dual pumps in series and a flow gauge (a good one ain't cheap) and a great controller to monitor it. $400 MINIMUM...........

Or you buy two $80 air cooled heatsinks and good to go......................... Air don't fail, well very very rarely.............

Even the Hyper 212 EVO would be fine. Under $100 for BOTH with upgraded fans. Cheaper. Won't make the room any cooler, physics says so.

Your choice of CPU air coolers, have you Goggled those coolers performance at multiple sites and seen what's the best, Or are you reading Newegg reviews?

I been at WCing for a while.................

Thanks for your post; You can tell I'm looking for information - gather everything I can to make the right decision. Don't mind if I pick your brain a little more, you definitely sound like you know what you're talking about.

The Xeon's don't release till September and the Radeon 9000's don't release till October, so the good news is that I have a fair amount of time to put together all my knowledge & research into this.

I can agree with your about Corsair's WC AIO; In fact just last evening I was reading a long & informative sticky on Tom's Hardware about WCing [LINK] and I was starting to realize I should probably stay away from Closed Loop AIO; it's probably Zero benefit over Air. I'll be honest and state that I'm not under any misinformation; WCing Xeon's is probably not an extremely sensible decision since Air will achieve almost the same - perhaps just a few degrees short; nothing spectacular to be gained WCing Xeon's over Air considering there's no OCing. But I can't stress enough, a major part is sheer interest/hobby related rather then practical purpose. I possibly won't be building another system for quite some time and don't want to pass up the opportunity to WC.

Let's just talk about Air for a second; You're right - I have mostly gone by Newegg reviews. I will take some time to Google those around (Spending more time on WC research then Air right now, frankly), but let me ask you what I asked lowfat; if you had to AirC dual Xeon's, what would you recommend? Hyper 212 Evo's and TPC-812's is what I've narrowed down to so far.

More about water ...

Before I even talk about possibilities, let me just talk about budget. From what it's appearing to me, I won't be able to Install both Xeon's in one go. I'll more then likely have to go one-by-one. One Xeon now with the rest of the build; and add a second Xeon 3 ~ 6 months down the road; as soon as it's affordable. I've been able to workout the details on the Motherboard that will allow me to install all my other expansions (GPU, HDD, RAM, etc) with only One Xeon in socket (Since that disables half the ports), so that's not an issue.

That all said, I don't want to pay more then $200 Per CPU for WCing; in other words - $400 is my total limit on WCing both CPU's - so if I were to pick up a kit to WC a single Xeon, it would have to be around $200 (+/- change).

You're gonna hate me for asking this but I'm curious, since you mentioned "The very best 120X2 AIO unit" ... take it as n00b learning, but what do you consider "the very best 120X2 AIO"? I've seen a couple so far, Corsair's Hydro series, Antec's Kuhler and there was a German unit, Eisberg or something like that from another manufacturer. I'm not sure about others.

I'm also starting to look at some "Watercooling Kits"; again looking at some recommendations from that Tom's Hardware sticky. Since I'm new to this, I do like the idea of "Everything in one box" so I don't start to go fishing for screws & clamps at Home Depot. Some of the kits I'm looking at (And this is an initial perception), include the XSPC RayStorm 750 series (Eg:- RX240, RX360) and also the Swiftech 220 Edge Series (Although they exceed $200 by a tad). I don't know what your comments would be about picking a kit like some of these; and if they aren't a bad choice - how hard would it be for a complete n00b to set these up.

Of course this also opens up the question of choosing a Case that could eventually accommodate 2 of these kits in total, for WCing the 2 CPU's. You may know something about that.

Either way, look forward to your comments.

Thanks!

[Buckeye]

I've done both water and air..realistically unless your workspace doesn't have AC or is the size of a closet air is just fine.
Goof top HS and top fans are a must but air is just fine.

Or if you want to cut down on noise. These puppies can get pretty loud

[Conumdrum]

Get a Corsair 800D case. Get this watercooler for your CPU.

http://www.swiftech.com/H2O-x20-Edge-HD.aspx

Get the 120x3 version. Sorry, it costs more than $200. Not my problem. You do want reliability and quality right? Buy another CPU block when you get the second processor. Mount the rad up top and cut a hole for the fill port. When you decide to WC the GPU (you will) you can add a 120x2 radiator in the bottom by removing the lower drive cage. Many many have done it, you can find pics here and at my home forum.

Ohh, I forgot to give you weeks of reading material. STICKIES!! There are a few stickies etc I have written, see how many you can find.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/f...splay.php?f=71

My suggestion is build it first with a 212 air cooler with the first Xenon and see if you are happy. Then add the watercooling later as you learn more about watercooling and decide to actually do it. Always build on air first unless you are experienced with watercooling.

[LUCI5R]

Get a Corsair 800D case. Get this watercooler for your CPU.

http://www.swiftech.com/H2O-x20-Edge-HD.aspx

Get the 120x3 version. Sorry, it costs more than $200. Not my problem. You do want reliability and quality right? Buy another CPU block when you get the second processor. Mount the rad up top and cut a hole for the fill port. When you decide to WC the GPU (you will) you can add a 120x2 radiator in the bottom by removing the lower drive cage. Many many have done it, you can find pics here and at my home forum.

Ohh, I forgot to give you weeks of reading material. STICKIES!! There are a few stickies etc I have written, see how many you can find.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/f...splay.php?f=71

My suggestion is build it first with a 212 air cooler with the first Xenon and see if you are happy. Then add the watercooling later as you learn more about watercooling and decide to actually do it. Always build on air first unless you are experienced with watercooling.

Ah! Some real direction. This is probably not the end of questions & queries, but I definitely need to take some time to dip into those stickies first & drown myself into the reading material before I post back.

Choices are looking good!

Thank you for all your help - I can assure you will hear from me again!

[Conumdrum]

Great! CYA in a few weeks!

[paulbagz]

There are better cases for the job then that 800D if you're looking at decent air flow and radiator mounting etc.

Things along the Temjin line from SilverStone or even the CM Cosmos series.

If anything a 900D would get the job done as well.

Only reason I speak against the 800D is that well, every man and his dog has one and they don't really leave much to be desired in terms of air flowing in, it's a case designed solely for H20 and not much else (not a bad thing), but other cases like the TJ07/TJ11, 900D have a lot more options/space etc.

Something you need when you're looking at monster motherboards and extra heatware.

My 2c.

-PB

[LUCI5R]

There are better cases for the job then that 800D if you're looking at decent air flow and radiator mounting etc.

Things along the Temjin line from SilverStone or even the CM Cosmos series.

If anything a 900D would get the job done as well.

Only reason I speak against the 800D is that well, every man and his dog has one and they don't really leave much to be desired in terms of air flowing in, it's a case designed solely for H20 and not much else (not a bad thing), but other cases like the TJ07/TJ11, 900D have a lot more options/space etc.

Something you need when you're looking at monster motherboards and extra heatware.

My 2c.

-PB

I'm not sure if that's a fair, apples-to-apples comparison, because of Cost. Temjin is almost $500 and 900D is $350 ... other cases recommended are in the $250 figure, so even 900D comes in almost $100 more expensive. I would love to get the 900D to be honest, but it's $100 over my budget for a case so I'll have to pass. I wanted to stick around the $250 figure. I don't really care for the 800D looks -- it might be great inside & all, but I just don't like it, so I won't be getting that for sure. But definitely can't stretch to Temjin or 900D.

Is there a reason you guys seem to dislike the Thermaltake Level 10 GT?

[paulbagz]

Then my follow up comment would be;

You're spending thousands of dollars on a 2P Xeon + Motherboard and are considering H20 for it (looking at a good $700-$1000 worth of gear there) and the extra $100 for a better case is too much?

Please please please don't think that I am trying to be a /troll etc but I have see this so many times before that people can't just budge that little bit extra when they are already going so far.

As for the L10GT, it's just not a great case for H20 and I'm sure people dislike it due to its "tacky" looks/feel.

-PB