EK news - No RMA if you have PTnuke ... ** edit **

[NaeKuh]

quiet amazing for you to call this decision BS without knowing any facts, data and pictures.

OMG...

Do you think there is any situation in our hobby where physics doesn't apply nor does chemistry?

What you just did is say yes to all the questions i just asked.

Dude... why dont you think b4 and confirm b4 u shout others are saying BS instead of trying to hide behind your fanism.


Go read what PT Nuke is...

Once again.. cuz 50 people say pigs can fly... does not mean pigs can fly.. because u dont know if they are BSing to the vendor pigs can fly to get free stuff.
And its NOT fair for the vendor to say pigs can fly because of 50 people BSing pigs can fly to get free stuff.
Without define proof with pictures on their testing, or someone's else's testing that such PIGS CAN FLY, the VENDOR should never PASS INFO as FACT.

God sakes... WATERCOOLING, is a science / hobby.. NOT RELIGION.

[Schlingel]

are you reading my posts or not? i guess not completly. even if that additive cannot cause such problems in theory in combination with just plexi it maybe can in combination with other materials. maybe the ruber fitting, maybe trace elements in the chemical composition, mabe somthing else.

standard specs are not relevant in this issue i guess. maybe they are but product B, C etc have no problems unter this circumstances.

chemistry and physics always apply - the point is: do we know all about them? the anwer is a clear NO

[[XC] Oj101]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Down here, the fines for saying something bad about your competitor are high enough to put a small company out of business - and that's before the other company has sued you for damages. On the other hand...

Whenever nVidia advertised the GTX480, they compared performance to their older generation cards without a mention for ATi. When ATi advertised their 5xxx cards, they compared them to the nVidia cards. What does that do? It tells people that nVidia is another company to look at (if they didn't already know). Any publicity is good publicity, and what EK would've done by not mentioning the additive is two-fold: I only learnt about the additive from this thread due to them mentioning it, and am keen to try it out; and singling out ANY company/ies by name makes them appear to have sour grapes. Recommending that people only use EK additives to keep their warranty would've saved on both embarrassments.

[NaeKuh]

chemistry and physics always apply - the point is: do we know all about them? the anwer is a clear NO

so back to secondary piss off topic.

Your going to allow the vendor to continue using cheap acrylic and scape goatting it to something
a fair amount of us people use and is/was safe for the 99.999% of the other products including his old line?

Once again fanism at its finest.... *sigh*

Sorry, there is no defense for eK in this thread minus someone showing us define proof PT NUKE will crack acrylic.

[NKrader]

God sakes... WATERCOOLING, is a science / hobby.. NOT RELIGION.

ummm so i should stop praying to my computer.?..

haha nae dont take life so seriously





BTW.. i heard from a little bird that only ptnuke was used in the making of this table...

[NaeKuh]

haha nae dont take life so seriously

LULZ..

tell me.. would you be sane after waiting 3 weeks for your 580GTX card?
After having Tim RUSH you a 580GTX block at launch because you thought you were gonna get said card?



Skinnee and everyone of my friends are laughing there butts of right now, because the one time i tried to get cheap and smart, it ate me hardcore.

[prava]

are you reading my posts or not? i guess not completly. even if that additive cannot cause such problems in theory in combination with just plexi it maybe can in combination with other materials. maybe the ruber fitting, maybe trace elements in the chemical composition, mabe somthing else.

standard specs are not relevant in this issue i guess. maybe they are but product B, C etc have no problems unter this circumstances.

chemistry and physics always apply - the point is: do we know all about them? the anwer is a clear NO

You are just answering yourself. If you are not 100% sure that a product is screwing yours...you don't say so. If you are 80% sure that such product is screwing yours...you put a rule like this:
"we will only allow RMA when OUR product has been used along OUR anti-stuff".

What Naekuh mentions is that the LC section in this forum is taken as far down the road as it gets, which means that it is based on facts, aka science. So, unless you are absolutely sure about something, and have some data to support your thesis, you better not say nothing stupid.

So, the only thing Eddy did wrong was to claim another companies product name to be causing problems...which he shouldn't because he can't back it up with actual facts. If he didn't mention any specific product (just a rule about only using plain water, to say something) no fuss would have been created.

Hell, imagine somebody creates a reservoir-top and, somehow, few people get dead pumps. Unless the pump vendor is completely and absolutely certain that such reservoir-top is causing that damage, he shall not advertise against it...but maybe against any modification of his product. The difference is HUGE, as you can see.

[Boulard83]

So, the only thing Eddy did wrong was to claim another companies product name to be causing problems...which he shouldn't because he can't back it up with actual facts. If he didn't mention any specific product (just a rule about only using plain water, to say something) no fuss would have been created.

A huge +1 on this and this is my entire point. Nothing prove that PTnuke can break acrylics. And i donc beleive its possible.

[Schlingel]

You are just answering yourself. If you are not 100% sure that a product is screwing yours...you don't say so. If you are 80% sure that such product is screwing yours...you put a rule like this:
"we will only allow RMA when OUR product has been used along OUR anti-stuff".

correlations of 60% are in some fields of science absolute sufficet to proof something - expecially when it gets quiet complex. the only requierement ist that the facts and date you base your oppinion on are statistically safe. without knowing any deeper info its called BS here. as long EK as playing safe (what i expect - such an decission is not based on one some little cases) I see no problem.

btw: eddy just limited the Warranty and not calling PT a bad product. Only it seems statistically verified, that this product is causing problem with his products. even he pointed out that RMAs will be handled as usual further. spinned around he is only advising not to use that product with his product.

btw in that quotation is written "inform" and also a general part:

Please note that damage to acrylic reservoirs caused by aggressive liquid has distinctive pattern therefor it is easily recognisable.

this means any special apperance leeds to rejected RMA

[NaeKuh]

btw: eddy just limited the Warranty and not calling PT a bad product. Only it seems statistically verified, that this product is causing problem with his products. even he pointed out that RMAs will be handled as usual further. spinned around he is only advising not to use that product with his product.

just stop... im being serious... if your thinking your defending Eddy, your not.

Just stay quiet unless you have your own Tests to show, or you can prove with some moderate degree of belief that your thinking can be true.

Once again his original claims:

News

Additives in water loop! - 14/12/2010

We formally inform all customers using PT NUKE (or any other similar aggressive additives) in their water cooling loop that no RMA will be admitted.

Now read that... and tell me what that means..

PT NUKE = bad.. its harsh.. no RMA will be accepted if you use PT Nuke.

[TheBlueChanell]

which is why im saying this is BULL DOOKIE.

Eddy explain please...

Or Tibor.. i think your the eK Rep now... Explain.. b4 we start a mass boycott.
And trust me.. eK wont be missed with Koolance + Aqua Computers + Swiftech + XSPC + Feser + DD... which none of these guys are following ur move.
God not even Feser followed your model... seriously what are u guys doing?

I dont appreciate you guys blacklisting Alex without a valid reason... which to me it sounds like you guys are.

I'd take EK over any of those listed in a heart beat, with the exception of Aqua Computer. Maybe they've seen a large increase in RMA for acrylic res's and the common denominator is PT Nuke. While it might not make sense, at least Eddy is willing to do internal testing and look into it. I don't think he's "singling" anyone out. It's probably pretty expensive for EK to handle all these RMA's from all over the globe into Slovenia or wherever they are located.

[NaeKuh]

Maybe they've seen a large increase in RMA for acrylic res's and the common denominator is PT Nuke. While it might not make sense, at least Eddy is willing to do internal testing and look into it.

*face palm*

You see this is why I RANTED A FUME.
The vendor says it... so its even a THOUGHT which gets stuck in the back of your head, and that thought grows to BULL DOOKIE.

And Eddy only decided to test because WE ALL RANTED A FUME!

Would you guys seriously have wanted us to let this all slide under the mat?

Do you know how pissed i would be if i got a denial of RMA because of cheap acrylic and the reason was because i used 1-2 ppm of CuSO4 when Tap water itself probably has a higher FLUORIDE count?

I CuSO4 was so aggressive as eddy states wouldnt it eat the or yam at the plastic inside the pump housing?
Why the hell is it only the acrylic specific? And why is it ONLY EK's brands?

*bangs head on desk*

Thats it.... im done.

[slowfreight]

Wow! What the hell is going on here! I've purchased stuff from both vendors in past. This kinda sux man.

[Schlingel]

just stop... im being serious... if your thinking your defending Eddy, your not.

Just stay quiet unless you have your own Tests to show, or you can prove with some moderate degree of belief that your thinking can be true.

Once again his original claims:

i have to defend nothing here. i only see no detailed infos from EK and also no detailed infos that EKs decision could be BS. scientific way looks different.

@€: what makes me a bit angry is to imply someone is absolutly stupid and is not thinking about his decisions. and that without any proof for this. if there is comin up a detailed analysis you would say sorry?

Now read that... and tell me what that means..

I see nothing telling it is bad. only maybe agressive in his point of view. even this is not defined: agressive to his products, plexi or something else!? your interpretation - others are also possible. as I said (and someone already earlier in this thread): only a warranty statement nothing else.


anyway: i guess both involved persons are now in contact. should have been anyway the first step

[slowfreight]

Well fellas, I've had the same loop for about 4 years now. I use DI water + PT Nuke CU + an EK Multi Option Res. I dont see any cracks.

[Boulard83]

Well fellas, I've had the same loop for about 4 years now. I use DI water + PT Nuke CU + an EK Multi Option Res. I dont see any cracks.

Good to hear that !

[rge]

and also no detailed infos that EKs decision could be BS.

Those that make and sell acrylic, state that acrylic has been tested to be resistant to copper sulfate, which would include solutions up to 100% of copper sulfate (lesser concentrations are listed). Click on the links below and read for yourself.

Now you have proof that it is BS to claim 1-2 parts per million of copper sulfate is damaging acrylic, from companies that actually have access to testing and know what they are talking about and clearly state that acrylic is resistant to even significant concentrations of it.

http://microadvances.com/chemicals1.htm

http://plexiglasssheets.info/howto/i...tanceChart.pdf

[TheBlueChanell]

*face palm*

You see this is why I RANTED A FUME.
The vendor says it... so its even a THOUGHT which gets stuck in the back of your head, and that thought grows to BULL DOOKIE.

And Eddy only decided to test because WE ALL RANTED A FUME!

Would you guys seriously have wanted us to let this all slide under the mat?

Do you know how pissed i would be if i got a denial of RMA because of cheap acrylic and the reason was because i used 1-2 ppm of CuSO4 when Tap water itself probably has a higher FLUORIDE count?

I CuSO4 was so aggressive as eddy states wouldnt it eat the or yam at the plastic inside the pump housing?
Why the hell is it only the acrylic specific? And why is it ONLY EK's brands?

*bangs head on desk*

Thats it.... im done.

I get your point and am not leaning one way or another. You're just being overzealous about the whole thing starting with "ek won't be missed part" and singling out Alex.

PTNuke is pretty popular, if not the most, popular additive of it's kind within our community. Which is why it's taking the heat.

Right or Wrong.

[Johnny87au]

I think your right ... The WCing hobby have become a "mainstream" thing and a good number of newb start to WC and they use 10x defferent product to protect there loop thinking its going to be better this way ...

Anything that contain alcohol can be bad for acrylic.

Been using it for over 2 years with primochill LRT tubing, never had any problems... Still have a few spare syringes laying around..

[prava]

correlations of 60% are in some fields of science absolute sufficet to proof something - expecially when it gets quiet complex. the only requierement ist that the facts and date you base your oppinion on are statistically safe. without knowing any deeper info its called BS here. as long EK as playing safe (what i expect - such an decission is not based on one some little cases) I see no problem.

btw: eddy just limited the Warranty and not calling PT a bad product. Only it seems statistically verified, that this product is causing problem with his products. even he pointed out that RMAs will be handled as usual further. spinned around he is only advising not to use that product with his product.

Mate. Eddy just said that some of the RMA he received said to be using PT Nuke...but we don't know what else could they be using. I don't know if you see where am I going: no tests were done, they just believed what they were told, thats all. So, NO, thats not statistically safe nor nothing, because as plenty pointed out PT Nuke has been in the market for years and one has yet to find any claims of it causing acrylic to crack.

In any case, its up to Eddy to prove what is causing the cracks..and when he does its up to him to decide, but you should understand that its hard to believe when we are not talking about a new product at all. Could it be a problem with EKs acrylic? Maybe, and if it is, it should be stated in the product what kind of liquids are allowed and which ones are not, so that everybody knows exactly whats going on. Because, the way I see it, there is no list saying

these products (a, b, c, d...) are harmful for our products and, thus, will not be covered by our warranty

Instead, we got:

We formally inform all customers using PT NUKE (or any other similar aggressive additives) in their water cooling loop that no RMA will be admitted

How could one know what products will and what products wont be covered into the RMA if nobody specifies exactly the components harming EKs products? What are "similar agressive additives"?

I don't think its that hard to understand...

[zanzabar]

are you reading my posts or not? i guess not completly. even if that additive cannot cause such problems in theory in combination with just plexi it maybe can in combination with other materials. maybe the ruber fitting, maybe trace elements in the chemical composition, mabe somthing else.

standard specs are not relevant in this issue i guess. maybe they are but product B, C etc have no problems unter this circumstances.

chemistry and physics always apply - the point is: do we know all about them? the anwer is a clear NO

if u look at what acrylic is intended for and that anything under pressure in industrial settings uses poly carbonate, its easy to see that acrylic is weak and should not be used in liquid cooling, except maybe a rez that has a seamless acrylic tube with something strong capping the ends.

its to brittle yet not hard enough so any pressure on it, from screws to the liquid being pumped against it, will cause a failure.

[LowRun]

correlations of 60% are in some fields of science absolute sufficet to proof something - expecially when it gets quiet complex. the only requierement ist that the facts and date you base your oppinion on are statistically safe. without knowing any deeper info its called BS here. as long EK as playing safe (what i expect - such an decission is not based on one some little cases) I see no problem.

btw: eddy just limited the Warranty and not calling PT a bad product. Only it seems statistically verified, that this product is causing problem with his products. even he pointed out that RMAs will be handled as usual further. spinned around he is only advising not to use that product with his product.

btw in that quotation is written "inform" and also a general part:



this means any special apperance leeds to rejected RMA

Whoaw dude you're really digging a hole for yourself there. Science has nothing to do with correlations of 60%, it's about repeatability. If you can't get 100% the same result from the same starting situation you're not doing science, period

[tiborrr]

It reminds me of when i was pro active way more then i am now.
Mis information is worse then NO INFORMATION.

Any Vendor / person / site who promotes mis informtion will be shot, hang'd and left for the vultures to pick at.
Thats how XS has always been.
And thats how XS will always be.

Do you consider yourself Chuck Norris, XS Sheriff?

Why are you still dragging EK's name through mud repeatedly? It was said the PTnuke will be thoroughtly tested.

And yes, we take our customers word for it. How would it look like if we wouldn't? You'd be even more pissed off if we didn't believe you and you'd bash EK some more over the forums. It's looks like a catch 22.

Thanks once again to the helpful parties who took the sober look at the whole matter, especially Martin who has provided some very good starting points to look at.

[Schlingel]

Whoaw dude you're really digging a hole for yourself there. Science has nothing to do with correlations of 60%, it's about repeatability. If you can't get 100% the same result from the same starting situation you're not doing science, period

100% you maybe can get under controlled circumstances. you wanna call LC as we all do it controlled circumstances? I guess you won´t. Even the acrylic test sheet linked some posts up tells you exactly the same. read the bottom of that sheet. it can be only a refference. example? okay: manganese sulfide: how to test that? or: stress free... combine it with one post on this page and you know that there is a chance.


nobody knows EK´s data. I not and you not. Maybe RMA quote from defined area of the world is extremly higher than from another. after getting some customer feedback all pointed out we use PT nuke. after analyse of other factors it is problably the problem even if theory tells you not. i could conclude in this case it is probably not the products itself - its something else. maybe the acryl - maybe the something else (fittings, tubing, air, location whatever)

Do you consider yourself Chuck Norris, XS Sheriff?

exactly that is the point

How could one know what products will and what products wont be covered into the RMA if nobody specifies exactly the components harming EKs products? What are "similar agressive additives"?

the complete statment please. the important part is missing. if the RMA is due to an easy to realize crack it will be rejected. but your right: this way its a bit "unclear". I would put the second part up and the pt-one down.

[penguins]

Do you consider yourself Chuck Norris, XS Sheriff?

Why are you still dragging EK's name through mud repeatedly? It was said the PTnuke will be thoroughtly tested.

And yes, we take our customers word for it. How would it look like if we wouldn't? You'd be even more pissed off if we didn't believe you and you'd bash EK some more over the forums. It's looks like a catch 22.

Thanks once again to the helpful parties who took the sober look at the whole matter, especially Martin who has provided some very good starting points to look at.

he was not talking TO ek, he was talking ABOUT ek, and you can't really take back what you said.
if no one in this thread said anything about the statement on the Ek website, would you have ever said you would test pt nuke?
and you thank martin for doing a test that any 5 year old could... did it ever occur to you guys to put some pt nuke on some acrylic before ? that's all he did.. aside from spending 60 more seconds on google.

Look I'm really not the type of person to argue for the sake of arguing, and I don't personally think that I am arguing, but I also don't think you thought this post out 100% before you posted it.
NaeKuh isn't prolonging the 'beating of a dead horse' that's the people he's trying to talk to.
he isn't saying you're a horrible company and should be dragged out and shot. he's saying that if you didn't listen to this community IE. this whole thread you would be by everyone else. who says anything nice about thermaltake for example??

I think that the post you just made was a PR mistake.
You don't realize but NaeKuh might be abrasive ( kind of like ptnuke? Lol i keed i keed ) but he's not after your goat. he wants this all to work out.

and if you didn't know all public relations were a catch 22 by now :| sorry lol.

100% you maybe can get under controlled circumstances. you wanna call LC as we all do it controlled circumstances? I guess you won´t. Even the acrylic test sheet linked some posts up tells you exactly the same. read the bottom of that sheet. it can be only a refference. example? okay: manganese sulfide: how to test that? or: stress free... combine it with one post on this page and you know that there is a chance.


nobody knows EK´s data. I not and you not. Maybe RMA quote from defined area of the world is extremly higher than from another. after getting some customer feedback all pointed out we use PT nuke. after analyse of other factors it is problably the problem even if theory tells you not. i could conclude in this case it is probably not the products itself - its something else. maybe the acryl - maybe the something else (fittings, tubing, air, location whatever)



exactly that is the point



the complete statment please. the important part is missing. if the RMA is due to an easy to realize crack it will be rejected. but your right: this way its a bit "unclear". I would put the second part up and the pt-one down.

dude, you're not doing anyone any favors. you're just arguing to argue bro.it's like saying no, you don't know that the rain is condensated into clouds, then it falls on the earth, you didn't see it.

ninja edit: also your idea of science is hilarious at best. how is LC not controlled? if you don't have a control in science it isn't science.