Morphing Air Conditioner into Autocascade System

[Polizei]

Ah, I see.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

How would R-124 work instead of R-123? R-124 is 400 dollars for 13.4Kg here where as R-123 only comes in 45Kg and is 900 dollars! excluding the tank/cylinder deposits!!!

[n00b 0f l337]

Well I hope you nail that goal, very inspiring and masterful work

[godmod]

Thats awesome Michael! Kepp working, i am thrilled for more pictures of the progress

[n00b 0f l337]

I think what I like the most, its not even the tubing and piping which is nice and neat and compact, its that the compressor and condenser with fan assembly comes together, something I never get here in the USA it seems is those damn fan and condenser assemblies. Plus a nice cheap case! I do like your heat loader coil Michael, could easily be stretched out a bit more and become an immersion chiller coil.

[mytekcontrols]

How would R-124 work instead of R-123?

This appears to be very similar to Isobutane (R-600a) with a boiling point of -11C (R-600a = -11.7C). Yes I think it would work, although it would be better suited for a water-cooled unit, since the higher boiling point of R-123 seems to work better at moving heat for the elevated temperatures in air cooling.

Being so similar to R-600a, it makes me wonder what the price difference would be between this and R-124.

I think what I like the most, its not even the tubing and piping which is nice and neat and compact, its that the compressor and condenser with fan assembly comes together, something I never get here in the USA it seems is those damn fan and condenser assemblies. Plus a nice cheap case!

Yes I totally agree. Much of the work is done for you, and it allows you to concentrate on the business end, that being to build the HX Stack. And as you pointed out, the main part of the case is already provided as an additional bonus. Just need to fabricate a front panel. Speaking of which, did you check out Front Panel Express? They offer a very slick service, and provide a free CAD application for doing the design.

I do like your heat loader coil Michael, could easily be stretched out a bit more and become an immersion chiller coil.

But at these temperatures, what would you use as the liquid?

Thats awesome Michael! Kepp working, i am thrilled for more pictures of the progress

Thanks godmod Don't worry, more will be coming soon.

[Polizei]

But at these temperatures, what would you use as the liquid?

Well, could your autocascade hold a load of say 400w at -40c?

[godmod]

read the thread and you will know the aimed temps
i think he is more after some -140 at 200W i think

[mytekcontrols]

Hoping for:
-100C @ 200 watts (no argon)
-120C @ 150 watts (maybe a very small amount of Argon)
-130C @ 100 watts (even more Argon)

Reality may step in and shave 25-50 watts off of these estimates.

Well, could your autocascade hold a load of say 400w at -40c?

Not built for this temperature range. I have too many stages. A design with only 1 phase separator, and 2 HX's would be far more suitable for -40C.

[PhilippF]

I bow my head to the master.... looks VERY nice. If it performs even close to the estimates, I am totally stunned.

Regards,

Philipp

[godmod]

Philipp, he just told Polizei his goals. There are nor results yet, you might have misunderstood this as loadtesting results.

[tim-]

godmod:
i think you are the only one misunderstanding he wrote:

If it performs even close to the estimates, I am totally stunned.

and I agree, with 6-7k btu compressor and -90-100 @ 200w load, I would be very happy.

[godmod]

Yes, youre totally right
I didnt read that right

[n00b 0f l337]

He does have access to all the gases, which I've been slowly accumulating for my own projects. Whop is getting trimmed as I have so much extra height, and truly Mytek's window ac approach is novel. Many of us phasers have done window AC chillers and single stages, but always been too bulky though cheaper, he's used all that space. Even my cascade with small compressors in a window ac wasn't as nice and sorta cramped. He's done a hell of a job.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Ok perfect as most the stuff I build is water cooled! Now trying to find a spare 500 bucks for some R-124!

[boshuter]

Even my cascade with small compressors in a window ac wasn't as nice and sorta cramped.

Adam.... I'd love to see some pics of that cascade in a window ac, do you have a build thread on it anywhere?


BTW... Awesome work mytek

[n00b 0f l337]

Sure I'll dig em up
I know I got those pics somewhere, and I know Philly Boy also has a window AC chiller I did for him.
Details of that were a 5500 BTUh lg/panasonic/matsu with a 5500 BTUh rechi, 10 plate hx, capillary on both stages.

[mytekcontrols]

Thanks again everyone for your encouragement and praise. It is this which drives me to make this project as excellent as I can. Also as I've reviewed many of the other projects on this site, I have seen several examples of the quality that is possible when someone puts their heart into it. It has been truly inspiring!

I also learned about the possibility of using R-600 from some of you guys, and based upon some preliminary tests I've run on another unit, this stuff is totally awesome in an autocascade. If only it wasn't so flammable, I could see this being used in some of the big Polycold's. But it would require some extensive safety procedures, and special equipment to deal with recovering a charge that consists of several lbs of this stuff (not good to have your vacuum pump's exhaust light up with a match and keep burning for quite some time thereafter). On a small unit, where you are only talking a few ounces, it is not a problem.

What's left to do:

1. Thermocouple Stack for Temperature Profiling (I have attached a location diagram)
2. Route Access ports for suction, discharge, and expansion tank to the front for later panel mounting
3. Make up forms for foam insulating stack
4. Foam Stack
5. Wire up compressor and fan
6. Finish Test Load
7. Decide on initial charge composition
8. Charge unit and test
9. Create Front and Rear panels for unit

As always, I'll be posting updates to keep you guys informed along the way.

[godmod]

the diagrams are very nice and easy to read and understand. i like those.

[n00b 0f l337]

I'd say you'd want an oilless pump setup to remove the charge. But they use ethane already so isn't it not so much a problem? Or just a large amount of liquid or near liquid state butane might prove to be a problem.
Good diagram work, got a few similar projects now too.
Def going to be doing a much smaller setup as well

[TopherTony]

wow very slick unit! love it

[mytekcontrols]

I'd say you'd want an oilless pump setup to remove the charge. But they use ethane already so isn't it not so much a problem? Or just a large amount of liquid or near liquid state butane might prove to be a problem.

It's the large amount of liquid, plus the fact that it's boiling point is rather high as compared to the other refrigerants being used. Basically the ethane in the charge tends to have it's flammability squelched by the R-14 and Argon that stay mixed with it. Also these 3 gases come out fairly quickly during the recovery process, leaving the R-600 liquid behind. With the other refrigerants gone, the R-600 that is left, is in a nearly pure state (think liquid butane). Being a liquid, it tends to say in all the low spots, and is mingled with the oil. Getting it out by pumping takes considerable time. Also unless you have the pump exhaust vented outside, it is spewing lots of butane gas into the enclosed environment

Keep in mind that a 10HP autocascade will use somewhere between 3-5 lbs of R-600. That's a lot of butane!

What is needed is a cold trap between the vacuum pump, and the unit (something like my original AC project). Although this cold trap will need to run down to around -70 to -80C, in order to 100% trap out the butane (remember as we go into a vacuum, the condensing temperature also drops).

[n00b 0f l337]

Gives me a few ideas
Sent ya another email.

[godmod]

Too secret or too offtopic to post it here?

[godmod]

Hehe, will stay tuned

^^NoL, why did you delete the post? Or was it a Mod?