Xtreme Autocascade competition ??

Hello guys,


I just came up with i idea when talking with runmc.

Why not make a autocascade competition ? I think there is a large potential in theese little beasts but no one is developing them (most of us dont - for example Redwolf is), every one is making full blown cascades. I think many peapole would enjoy the chance of having 10C lower temps with a autocascade than a normal unit.

When peapole race to do something the best many ideas are born and tested, so why not make a competition!

The first few rules im thinking of:

-only comnon I stage refrigerants can be used. R134A/R22/R404A/R507/R290 etc. Or even make it more restricted, to lets say R22, R290, R404A and R507. Or only R290 to make the chances equal.

-the II stage refrigerant must be CO2. Carbon dioxide is a very comnon gas and ANYONE can obtain it. Welding supplies, pet shops, paintball supplies and a lot more.

-only DIY heat exchangers, separators can be used.

-compressors up to 1hp may be used. 2 stage compressing may be used as long as the II stage compressor is <1/8hp. 1/16hp is prefered. So tricks with semi compound cooling cant be used. If someone has acces to a large 10000btu/h rotary will get a compressor from a small frige.

-if a 2 stage compressing unit is used the oil separator must be DIY

-comnon available parts must be used. cap tubes as metering devices are prefered. TXV's and PEV's too but less.

-variable frequency a/c to the compressors is not allowed

How do you guys like the idea ? There would be 2 competitions, who will get the lowest temps unloaded (chances for smaller systems) and loaded with a knows heat load.

I dont know what would be the prize or how we would organize it, but i belive peapole who did this sort of stuff earlyer can help here.


berkut

I think this would be some fun - friendly competiton for us phasechange people.

Plus like you say berkut, we would all learn alot.

My suggestion on a competition would be to keep all rigs simple and DIY. That way everyone would have a chance.

For example - r290 , and CO2 (you can always change after the competition is over) All parts are DIY (home made) HX - oil seperators - receivers - evaporators. Condensers could be store bought. If you choose to use TXV or CPEV, they could be allowed, unless everyone wants to eliminate expansion valves and keep it captube only. ;)

This is an idea we can all join in on. Give your opinions and we can take votes to make the final decisions. :D Of course we will have to set a deadline on the competition. We can also vote on that.

Good idea berkut
:toast:

i have alwys wondered why ppl dont make more auto cascades
there is an art to making the phase separators and since there isnt much info on them (like cascades) there is still alot of ground work to be done by ppl.
i know my choice would be r290/co2

ya forgot r12, i think that r1150 shouldn’t be included though, that would be dangerous for ppl to compete against.

I really like this idea :D

The gasses are a good choice. Anyone can get r290 and CO2.

Condensers are allmost impossible to make so those may be store bough. Maybe a size limitation? (say 15"x15"x3").

To bad i haven't finished my first system yet and are inexpirienced, if i were, i would definately join this competition :D.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Epsilon

I really like this idea :D

The gasses are a good choice. Anyone can get r290 and CO2.

Condensers are allmost impossible to make so those may be store bough. Maybe a size limitation? (say 15"x15"x3").

To bad i haven't finished my first system yet and are inexpirienced, if i were, i would definately join this competition :D.

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I also have two other projects I have to finish before I can start. I like the size idea for condensers. Maybe you will be able to join in also soon.

I also think we could limit compressor sizes. If we keep them smaller and less expensive, more people could get involved together. Maybe under 1/2 ton??

I have no idea how to build an AutoCascade myself, but I think if we all get together for a simple competition, we will all learn together.

I'm going to us a 1/4 ton and 1/3 ton compressors. They are a couple I have collected and never tried. I'm going to keep my cost down as much as possible. That will make it more fun.
:)

R1150 is very hard to get for some peapole. CO2 is commnon.

Yes i also belive R290 and CO2 is the best combination.

No, i think there shouldnt be any limit on the condenser size. But a ambient temp limit should be. The room the system is working in shouldnt be cooler than 20C ambient.

I think the basic principles should be posted so anyone can make a system like this.

And after we finish our system we should post details on them. Detailed pics or diagrams at least. Thats the idea behind this competition.

compressor and condenser sizes... there is a problem beacause some of us like me cant get condensers easy. compressors too. I have 2 compressors 3/4hp each, if i would try to use smaller compressor i would have to have a large budget to buy new ones.

Quote:

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I have 2 compressors 3/4hp each, if i would try to use smaller compressor i would have to have a large budget to buy new ones.

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This is true.. But lets say there is a person who already has two 2 hp compressors and he doesn't want to buy more. Maybe we should not have a limit on compressor sizes for this reason.

We want to keep the cost way down on these cascades.

Perhaps we can have more than one catagory. hummmm :D

How about two catagories?? small compressors 1/7hp - 1/3hp larger compressors 1/2 hp - whatever

These are only suggestions :toast:

i think that 1Hp max.
need to learn here so easy to start with a decent compressor.
maybe ya could work out a point system and rate the hole system, each section of the system, points for brazing etc, size of system, temps, hole system, condenser
smaller more points, make ya own block more points, refrigerants used, the list goes on.

here is a pic done by chilly1 from team:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:


http://xtremesystems.org/forums/atta...id=19600&stc=1

sounds like a good idea, I was trying to get myself to change some valves on my auto cascade to tube it. Guess this is my incentive. Btw what kind of heat load are we talking about? Iam thinkg a 80w pelt :)

that is a good idea to have a standard heat load to compare each system.
i have one of those.

I think we should make a heatload = to the compressor in some way.



I have a 1 1/2hp low temp r404a compressor I bought for a auto cascade but I guess that wouldnt be fair :( . Iam stuck with my 1/2hp rotary.

After reconsideration, i think only the refrigerants should be limited to r290 and CO2. THe other parts should be home made (exept for the oil separator).

Not to many restrictions, this will cause that less people are going to build one !!

No compressor and condenser limitations. The challenge is big enough only to make a working autocascade :D

This is a very exciting idea! Maybe Fugger would be interested in supplying a cool Intel ES keyring or something ;) While I am a complete noob in the field and won't be entering, I would have to agree that standard gasses, R290, and CO2 is the best idea for it to be most successful. I don't think that compressors/condensors are such a big issue because getting good phase seperation and controlling sublimation of CO2 will be the hardest part in the end. An autocascade using CO2 with direct die evaporation would be a mighty feat for anyone to achieve!

Good luck guys! :toast:

I think R404a/R507/R22/R134a should be allowed aswell, just because R290 is flammable.. Everyone doesn't want to work with it (i'm one of those).

how much time would people have? By the way, for the unexperienced, take some safety precautions to prevent blowing yourself up. If you make a design flaw you could try to condense CO2 in the first stage causing very high pressures and possible rupture.

but I'm in if I have enough time and epsilon gives me my compressor :D

How about R290 or R22 for first stage and CO2 for second?

If people are afraid to work with propane R22 will be an alternative that won't give them an edge.

What do i think:

-there should be no compressor categories. If a 1/2hp compressor is close to a 1hp one... we all know who is the clear winner and who has the better design....

-R404A is a really big advantage over propane. Its not easy to acces for some of us. It even has a advantage over R22. R290 is not dangerous if you know how to use it. I guess anyone who will start in the contest isnt a idiot. And wont blow himself up with propane. So i say R290. And most of the guys do too.

Lets make a pool shall we ? The first topic will be about refrigerants.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=46089

Well my 2 pence worth ;)

If the purpose of the competition is to advance knowledge on Autocascades, then the selection of the refrigerants should be open. The trick to an autocascade is the refrigerant mix, thats why they are kept secret and cost a fortune.

Isnt the ideal refrigerant mix the part of an autocascade we need to unpick? The construction of one isnt difficult, just the tuning of the metering devices and refrigerant mix?

Regards

John.

pc ice - nobody said you will win :P

pythagoras - CO2 does not blend with any refrigerant to our knowlege. BUT anyone might do some research on it and if it will work: f$%en jeah. Our road to better cascades and autocascades is open.

IF it blends with anything were home, the rules will be changed a little. Mostly this will find use in cascades rather than autocascades. Autocascades work on a different priciple than a cascade so if it blends nothing will do.

I have a CO2 cascade and i tested R134A, propane and R22, non of theese blend.

Bercut--> You dont have time for this and you know why :cord: :toast:

I agree, what I disagree with is the restriction to CO2 as the low stage refrigerant. That limits our knowledge of autocascades. The low stage refrigerant should be left open.

Regards

John.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown_road

how much time would people have? By the way, for the unexperienced, take some safety precautions to prevent blowing yourself up. If you make a design flaw you could try to condense CO2 in the first stage causing very high pressures and possible rupture.

but I'm in if I have enough time and epsilon gives me my compressor :D

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but, if ya got co2 with the r290 surly it would steal all the o2, no fire, just explosion.
i know that i will be using HPCO so reducing chances of explosion.
these are very good points though made by unknown road.

have two divisions; set a line of rules. max compressor/ gases r290,r22,co2
then open division anything goes

I was awaiting the r14 now I got it I will build one... R507/R23/R14 But I have ten projects i the pipeline... gotta finish these first.

An r290/co2 is a safe mix for an autocascade, its just not the best mix. r290/r23 is better but I would like to find out which is the best.

Regards

John.

Okay, upstage me with a three stage autocascade :D

Regards

John.

Stickied a drawing thread.,,,

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=46096

I think r290 is already a pretty high pressure gas for an autocascade. You should consider that the CO2 also raises the discharge pressure although it doesn't condense. CO2 is also relative low pressure second stage refrigerant. Most of us will make a autocascade for the first time, if it works with these gasses you could later on try with other gasses outside of the contest.

@kayl: an explosion without fire at a pressure of 20 bar is still really dangerous!! It can kill you easily!

The preasures kill. Not the flames. Few years ago a tractor tire blew up and a man standing a few meters away flew about 10 meters to a pile of logs and died that second...Even truc tires are filled inside a safety cage if something goes wrong. Imagine what kind of damage it would make if it was between your legs(like most of us keep car tires when filling them) and expleded...

Well the idea behing R290 and CO2 is that anyone can obtain theese gases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by berkut

Well the idea behing R290 and CO2 is that anyone can obtain theese gases.

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Yeah that way it's fair. A lot of people might want to compete who don't have access to refrigerants like Ethylene or R23. This way everyone has the same chances and the builder with the best design will win instead of the builder with the best refrigerant.

Due to the fact that some people don't want to use flammable gases, I think it's only fair to open the selection of first stage gas.

As far as the second stage , I think we should all use CO2. Is this agreed by everyone?

Like I said earlier, I think we should have two classes for compressor sizes.

The smallest up to 1/3hp. Then for 1/2 hp and up. Are we agreed on this?

I know load temps are the most important thing, but this could really get complicated trying to determine what load temps are.

How about if we start off with simply the lowest temp? And then latter along if we all come up with an agreeable way to test load temps , we'll do that.

I think the autocascades should be judged on performance ,design and overal looks.

If can come up with enough prizes, we can have winners for each.


small compressor class would have two winners.
1. lowest temps
2. design and looks.

big compressor class
1. lowest temps
2. design and looks

We could say that one person can't win both prizes in a class. ;)

above sounds like a good idea
limit to co2 is good idea with what eva first stage gas up to ppl.
as its the co2 limit that makes it fair (if ya use either r404a/c02 or r290/c02, its the co2 thats the coldest)

what about these points from before

Quote:

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Originally Posted by runmc

I think this would be some fun - friendly competiton for us phasechange people.

Plus like you say berkut, we would all learn alot.

My suggestion on a competition would be to keep all rigs simple and DIY. That way everyone would have a chance.
For example - r290 , and CO2 (you can always change after the competition is over) All parts are DIY (home made) HX - oil seperators - receivers - evaporators. Condensers could be store bought. If you choose to use TXV or CPEV, they could be allowed, unless everyone wants to eliminate expansion valves and keep it captube only. ;)

Good idea berkut
:toast:

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This is a great idea, I planned this weekend to build myself an auto cascade :)

I'd be down on building my first cascade.. or autocascade for that matter, if someone could provide me with the details and a diagram with a captube metering device. I've built 4r22/r290 single stages so I think I might give this a go.

Is a desuperheater needed on an autocascade?
What pressure cutoffs/safety devices are needed?
How large a condenser will it require?
Can a DIY Phase separator be built? I was thinking of using the condenser as one (gas CO2 out the top, liquid r22/r290 out the bottom)

I've got an extra 1/4hp compressor and i'd like to try this, maybe I can get some parts from chilly1.

I think that above 1/2hp should be the high range. Anyone have any ideas for the prize or whatever?

How about you guys take your time to build them maybe a few weeks. I am not going to enter as I think I have an unfair advantage. The ??/Co2 option is a good one it is all about the boiling point of Co2 and who can push the envelope the farthest.. a -77 degree autocascade at 200W would be a very amazing thing. Keep it as simple as possiable. And plat safe. Follow all the saftey rules. I will talk with Fugger and see if we can come up with a good prize for this one like some refrigeration tools or something??? MAybe we need to set this up as a longer contest and we need some more criteria to judge this on like best of show for attentian to detail best temps (you will need to show a refrence of teh temp meters calibration like a screen shot of the temp meter in an ice bath at 0C. Some one needs to judge. That would be me and a few of themods that won't enter the contest... Hows that sound?

Sounds good to me. I think berkut achieved -78c under some load, maybe not 200w with his regular CO2 cascade, but it would be harder with an autocascade because you cant pull as deep a vacuum.

How about an autocascade safety guide?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pc ice

i geuss i wont enter niether. have fun guy's.

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\


go on make one just ya dont count in competition.
ya too good, but would be a good judge
and ya need a lot of time at least next year.
As ppl have to source stuff and order/get parts

I would like to see you building one too PC-ice. Not for the competition maybe, but for the common good and guideance (uhmm spelling ?) for the rest of us :).

So in fact you will have to make 2 oil separators?

Can any1 give a design for a regular phase-separator. Then i can twist my creative mind on a maybe even better design :D.

So far the FFA I stage refrigerants and CO2 wins. I think we will stick to that.

PC ICE i think you should join in. Its more fun when someone really good as you will be here to competate against. I find it more exiting working on my system and think "gotta beat pc ice, gotta beat pc ice ]:->" :D and besides, the chances are equall for everyone.

Chilly1 you could be the judge if you feel you have such a advantage.

Ok rules for now:

-R290/R22/R404A/R507/R134A for I stage refrigerant, CO2 as II

-All the parts must be DIY, commercial oil separators, liquid separators, HX'es can not be used. The only commercial parts that can be used are safety devices as: expansion tanks, cut off swiches etc.

-only DIY evaporators can be used. Copys of commercial evaporators are allowed

-compressors up to 1hp may be used. After seeing what compressor do peapole use in their systems the judges will make classes (probably there will be 2 classes, up to 1/2hp and 1/2- 1hp)

-PEV's, TXV's, EEV's etc can be used.

Am i missing anything here ?

Condenser sizes :)

There is no difference in condenser sizes. But you made me remember 1 more thing:

-Ambient temps above 20C

Sounds good. How about the winnner gets like a chilly1 block or like a single stage sys from chilly or something like that...

Why should you have to make your own block? The whole point of this contest is to experiment with auto cascading, not build a block.

beacause we want you guys to be more crative when making your systems, this includes evaporators.

a good evaporator design may give you a advantage even if you have a small compressor over a higher power system with a bad evaporator.

i dont know about the prizes.

exept prizes there are a few more things, much more imporatant to me: that someone will use my idea (if its good enough). beacause it was the best. peroid.

So, who wants to sigh in ?? We need to make a estimate how mant peapole will try their powers here. Post what compressors will you guys use too.

me: tecumeseh rk5510 3/4hp rotary or sanyo 3/4hp rotary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JSU

Why should you have to make your own block? The whole point of this contest is to experiment with auto cascading, not build a block.

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It is also to show off your skills ;) Using other peoples work just isn't as much fun.

by the way dabit has a pdf on his site of some guys that made an autocascade and wrote down their findings. look at www.icecoldcomputing.com and then librabry (below).

I agree completely with pythag on this - there should, at the least, be a no restriction catagory. If the purpose is to further our knowledge on autocascade construction and working out the right mixture level for gases - then there at least be a catagory that is left be open, so that these guys can show you just what u need to build the coldest running autocascade possible.

Having all catagories restricted in some way is going to hinder exprimental discovery of what makes the best autocascade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JSU

Why should you have to make your own block? The whole point of this contest is to experiment with auto cascading, not build a block.

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Actually if you think about it there is a way to build an autocascading block so the whole HX and Evap will be one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown_road

It is also to show off your skills ;) Using other peoples work just isn't as much fun.

by the way dabit has a pdf on his site of some guys that made an autocascade and wrote down their findings. look at www.icecoldcomputing.com and then librabry (below).

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here it is: http://www.icecoldcomputing.com/libr...efrigerant.pdf

So yes a better design is possiable how about a phase change system that has 2 capillaries and one suction that gets -75C and has only one coil, an oil seperatror a compressor and a block nothing else? So there is room for a lot of development... It may even be possiable to get the best unit to market, have it developed and have contracts signed and everything.. And xtremesystems is in a good position to do just that so come up with the best design and if it can be marketed I will help....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chilly1

So yes a better design is possiable how about a phase change system that has 2 capillaries and one suction that gets -75C and has only one coil, an oil seperatror a compressor and a block nothing else? So there is room for a lot of development... It may even be possiable to get the best unit to market, have it developed and have contracts signed and everything.. And xtremesystems is in a good position to do just that so come up with the best design and if it can be marketed I will help....

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Agreed. We should start a line of xtremesystems coolers :D , no joke! I think that they would sell well.

the problem i see, is that the two markets for phase change systems are:
A) all out cold as possible, size is no limit (cascade, triple cascade etc.)
B) an everyday 24/7 phase change cooler, that must fit in a case that can fit nicely with one's existing case. (prommy, vapo, etc.)

i think these autocascades would fall between the two categories, they dont have the power to compete with the temps of true cascades (unless somone here is a genius, and proves me wrong), and they dont fit the size reuirements that average OC enthusiasts looking for a prommy sized thing would buy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by froudeg

I agree completely with pythag on this - there should, at the least, be a no restriction catagory. If the purpose is to further our knowledge on autocascade construction and working out the right mixture level for gases - then there at least be a catagory that is left be open, so that these guys can show you just what u need to build the coldest running autocascade possible.

Having all catagories restricted in some way is going to hinder exprimental discovery of what makes the best autocascade.

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The idea behind the restrictions is not intended to hinder developement. The restrictions on the gases is suggested because alot of the people that frequent this forum and that might want to participate in this friendly competition don't have access to alot of the specialty gases. berkut was trying to choose refrigerants that most everyone on the forum could get.

What refrigerants in particular are you wanting to us in your AutoCascade? Maybe we can set up an open class for the guys who want to make the sky the limit if there is an interest. :D

I'd love to join, in any case, to build an autocas, but for the moment I'm depleted of funds and am saving for 3rd stage stuff. I'll try to sell a single stage to get some money...
But I was hoping to use R1150 since I already have a tonne of it.

Quote:

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But I was hoping to use R1150 since I already have a tonne of it.

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"Open Class" :D Cool :cool:

Aye, if i have a go at this i'd probably end up using ethane (R170) in there as this is a gas i already have, plus is half the pressure of ethylene.

Autocascade freezers used in medical systems can achieve below -100C, but they have a low capacity and a finely tuned blend of gases.

As for gas, I will be using CO2 because it's the only gas I would be willing to work with (it's non combustable and easy to obtain). I can get a tank from my local AirLiquide or get a little tank from a paintball shop and fashion an adapter (if it's pure eneough?).

I think that it is possible to get an autocascade to work well, but it will require significant development, refinement, and research. People have been putting all their mental processes into developing better classic cascades but have not considered the autocascade, except for redwolf who build a r414b/co2 autocascade.

Should one static charge an autocascade like a classic cascade? What are the dangers associated with an autocascade system other than high pressure. As I see it, if the compressor on an autocascade system were to fail it would be safer than a classic cascade as the low side would have somewhere to go (eg an expansion tank). What static pressures are we looking at for a 2 stage autocascade?

The dangers of a autocascade are basicly the same as a single stage system : condenser cooling fails and you potentially have a bomb. If the compressor fails there wont be any problems.

Well you can charge a autocascade in any way you want but charging a working system with CO2 is dangerous. The best way would be using a big tank (like a old 10kg tank of R134A), static charging it to lets say 2 bar CO2, then fill her up with your I stage gas to lets say 6 bar. Then fill the system up with it. This way when you are changing something in your system you can repeat the blends and you know when your going the wrong or good way.

I remind you guys: if you want to start in the main contest you have to use CO2. The main purpose of this competition is to make CO2 autocascades more user friendly, so more peapole with skills and materials good enough to make a autocascade can make one.

I have done some research and to my knowlege converting a single stage system to a autocascade would cost about 20-30$ includimg CO2. And how many peapole use high power rotary compressors with a high vacuum ? A lot i belive. Why dont they convert their systems to autocascades ? Beacause they find them hard to do, there is no research on it (they dont want to be the first). A autocascade can give a 10 to 20C boost in temps to my knowlege. This means more benching power and more competition in benchmarks. And if we find a very briliant way of making autocascades, who knows, maybe this will become opium for mases ? No more need to make $$$$ cascades.

This is a lil too optimistic but this is virgin and the perspectives are interesting. I hear a lot about 3 or 4 stage autocascades but i have only seen 4 two stage autocascades. And only 1 was tested with a real load. Guys, lets start building the house, but dont start with the 3, 4 stagers (you dont start to make a house by building the roof), lets make 2 stage systems.

After a CO2 cascade is mastered other refrigerants are only easyer to use.

as far i know of the only ppl to have build fully functional autocascades
are captian cascade,aenigma and redwolf
the only ones on the net are redwolfs and now jsu

thats a good link blinky, printed and reading now :toast:

im sure someone of us (but i cant remember the nickname, he was from the UK) made a R23 autocascade, im sure about that.

afaik cc's cascade didnt work ok

I'm in with sc10b :D .

The fourth person was RusselHQ Berkut.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=28785

Regards

John.

I wish I was good enough to build an autocascade. Only just finished my singlestage. Hope to build a few more before I jump into cascade territories.

Yes i had him in mind, thank you. Please start signing up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by berkut

Yes i had him in mind, thank you. Please start signing up

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maybe I'll join the contest but I need some more parts, do you want to close the signing in soon?

We still dont know. So far only a few signed up.

I think that this competition should last at least a few weeks if not longer. Some people dont have as much time free to work on this and it takes a lot more preparation than a single stage, if it's going to be safe and functional.

well im for usre in, I have to make a expansion tank for my auto-c and change some valves a crud and I should be in buisness :)

Yeah i think soo. We should give peapole time, this is not about who makes it the fastest but who makes it best.

I think we should begin within a week (lets say were all doing organization procedures now) and it will last for lets say 4-5 weeks ? Most of us will finish sooner but anyone of us might have some sudden unexpected guests during weekend, holidays, whatever.