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Looks like a series of elegant solutions for today's programing problems in gaming industry. Bring it on AMD!
We just need some benchmarks now. :)
Can anyone explain to me if all games from a supported engine work via Mantle out of the box? Such as Frostbite, or will each individual game need to be patched for this?
What exactly do you want to benchmark?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim
Not sure if serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by iddqd
I suppose BF4 mantle version, I don't know of anything else available in the near months :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by iddqd
That would be one of the main ones to start with.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiSUAN
I can barely say this, but it seems, AMD for once did something RIGHT, jesus, whats next, not F-up CPU ?
Support for mantle seems to be solid.
hopefully we'll see a running demo in the next presso
That is something I would really like to see. Let's see it in action.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
From what he was saying during the streaming, all 15 games developed with FB3 will support Mantle, BF4 will be the only one patched to support Mantle, the others gonna support it right out of the boxQuote:
Originally Posted by Tim
I hypothesis that Amd is done with CPU. They have transformed, and it seems they will be successful as a cross between Nvidia and Intel, perhaps shedding CPU only Arch completely. I wonder if bulldozer/Piledriver was ever supposed to be competitive, or only a necessary step in the modular direction they had intended to go. You gotta admit, they learned a lot about modulation from that development.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
So, am I reading this right? Does that really say not only can Mantle work with most modern GPUs (Nvidia and older AMD), but it is AMD's strategy for it to be?
Well it does say " Not Tied to AMD GCN Architecture". So I guess that does mean that maybe Nvidia can make use of it. That is if that slide above is to be believed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stukov
They communicated a long time ago the days of competing with Intel on the high-end desktop segment were over. But of course, being able to produce successful APUs requires work to be done on the CPU side of things. If you cease to invest in R&D to continue pushing the CPU architecture, your APU will become an uninteresting product too. This is particularly a concern now that Intel is picking up on the GPU development (Iris Pro). So I am sure there is still focus on the CPU architecture part of the APU. They will just not focus on building "the fastest CPU".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace123
By the way, with AMD reducing focus on claiming the title of the fastest CPU, Intel is pretty much the only company left to preach high-end desktop. That's not good for us.
I think it may be limited somewhat by how programmable the GPU is, but basically anything from the last few generations up (DX 10+) will probably be good to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stukov
More details here, where are the damn benchmarks though?
http://new.livestream.com/toms-live/events/2545103
Looking at the history of Battlefield games with all the bugs, I hold my hearth at how many more of those issues will pop up once they roll out mantle. I hope they have it tested well this time around.
funny thing that each version of BF gets worse and worse... :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by nossy23
Johan mentioned there are no number comparisons yet, not even in APU13. How sad. The only demo is by the Oxide engine developers, which is a bit pointless without any comparisons. Hope they post the demo on youtube, regardless.
When will bf4 be safe to play? Lol
One would think a demo isn't far away. After all, the BF4 mantle patch is due before the end of this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
@MaddMuppet: It shows my impatience. ;)
Bit more details on Mantle below. Are there any slide dumps somewhere, or anyone who at least took a photo of every slide? Right click open in new tab to enlarge if it's too small.
http://i4.minus.com/iMpQPnd0sxZ8u.png
http://i.imgur.com/ARCSG2t.jpg
Open to everyone and with linux version released and steamos..m we are looking to the future. Very very well done.
Sent from my SM-N9000Q using Tapatalk
That paves the way for battlefield linux :D I am excite!
^^^ I thought Magadascar the movie already had battle penguins...
http://www.hardware.fr/news/13450/ap...ec-mantle.html
And here I thought nobody is willing to post the slides. Yes!
Seems like Oxide mentioned strategy games. I'd love to see > 1000 unit limit without any lag.
Oxide is praising Mantle to cloud 9 it seems. Quite hoping to see a game use their engine soon, but that's unlikely.
EDIT: I'm wrong. Their demo, StarSwarm is coming Q1 2014, seems to feature 2 AIs, over 20k units ('100k batch', just interpolating them saying 10k units ~ 50k batch) fighting each other out.
EDIT2: 3 times faster, but I got no clue what they're comparing it to. I think Mantle is going to be a huge boon to strategy games. AMD FX 8350 downclocked to 2 GHz is still not CPU-bound apparently.
Couple of things about those tweets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final8ty
1. https://twitter.com/repi/status/4008...485696/photo/1 If oxide can now have 100k draw calls with mantel, how many draw call they are getting with dx11.1?
2. "Oxide wants to see 300k batches by 2015, 1 million by 2018." What does this mean?
3. I guess AMD hit the jackpot with mantel, now being able to compete intel with it's inferior CPU. Has this been AMD's plan all along when they desided to cut down those FPU units? Hard to believe, but then again, it's also hard to believe that AMD would magically get this lucky when thinking about gaming and their slow CPU's. Too bad this mantle wont help AMD CPU's in real world applications.
4. Just speculations for the future. Shouldn't excavator embedded even more CPU and GPU making FPU's in CPU's even more legacy compute units?
So, Mantle API ---> extensions ---> GPU mArch, it's not locked to GCN only, not even AMD only. And it can be used continuously as GPU mArch evolved, as long the extensions are developed. Correct ? If that so, BRAVO AMD ! :clap:
From: http://www.hardware.fr/news/13450/ap...ec-mantle.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by stuffme
1. 15k
2. What is this 'batch' you can see on the 1st photo there:
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos...G0043524_1.jpg
but from what I understand with mantle the CPU's performance won't be so much of an issue. It seems they want to take a ton of the load off of the CPU? Intel has had free reign with the top performance in desktop sector for years now. I'm not saying it's good but I don't think it will get much worse in terms of year to year performance gains. just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by massman
Will Mantle remove Directx from game? how about OpenGL ?
Mantle wont remove anything, it will ADD a third API option.Quote:
Originally Posted by behrouz
From what im seeing, mantle makes much better use of large number of cores, thats why PS4 and ONE can get away with weak cores, just alot of them.Thats good also for highend intel and me :)
"With Mantle, an @AMDFX 8350 underclocked to 2GHZ, the game is still GPU bound on a R9 290X - no loss in frame rate"
Another AMD tweet:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuvok-LuR-
Which makes the AMD decision to not do 8 core SR`s even more absurd :-/ .Quote:
RT @cavemanjim: "CPU benchmarks indicate an @AMDFX 8350 is equal to i7 4770K" #APU13 #Mantle #Oxide
These tweets are from the Oxide demo (look at the hardware.fr article mentioned above):
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos...G0043521_1.jpg
If this gets a decent amount of support and is adopted well then this could be great for consumers :D
The cpu market would become very competitive (for gaming).
Going to keep an eye on this :)
short term you are right but if it succeeds in long term i believe nor directx neither opengl can survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
Thats what i mean, we must have to remember that while chip is larger and hotter, PD chips ARE comparable with 4 core i7`s when workload is properly MT.Quote:
Originally Posted by cezar
All this makes it probable that system with AMD 8 core and R290X is gonna be faster at mantle games than 4 core i5/i7 with comparable nvidia card`s.
Interesting times ahead.God damn, AMD make at least 6 core Sr on Fm2!
IF (with caps) Mantle would be successful, then it will actually be a widely de facto industry standard, won't it ? I don't see any problem with that, knowing that Mantle is deep down GPU agnostic, just like what was suggested in the slide. It will be up to the other IHVs (nVidia, Intel, even mobile graphic IHVs like PowerVR, ARM, etc) to built their own extensions and adapt/optimise their GPU designs to get the best performance possible with Mantle.Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
I guess bright days will come for my brothers MSI GX60 witch decent 7970M bootlenecked by Trinity APU.
MORE !!!!
Of course it is also not a problem but a profit for me but i am sure Microsoft won't be so happy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by spursindonesia
A funny thing occured to me just now... Isn't this a bit like 3DFX's Glide API? Or is that different?
So AMD made a CPU geared towards multi-threading, and then worked on something that makes games make better use of it's CPU multi-thread capabilities? Where's the jackpot? Mantle won't help in real world applications? It doesn't need to, AMD cpu are already competitive price\performance with Intel in multi-thread apps, there's multiple reviews benchmarks proving that. Plus there's the GPU to help in real world apps, open-CL Handbrake saw a performance jump above 100% in a trinity APU. Kaveri with proper software support will be a beast, and AMD is working a lot with devs in these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuffme
which chapter is the Sm in your avatar?Quote:
Originally Posted by Craftyman.
Most interesting thing for me is Multi GPU scaling, should help the LAN machines with BF4+. I'd like to know if 4 Core PD/SR matches i5 4670K or any of the i7's, if it's the former then no 6/8 Core SR chips is an own goal.
That would be Black Templar. I worked in a Games Workshop store for 2 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
For sure, but i think WE as consumers would love to have alternative OSes that's good for gaming (performance and compatibility), especially if not costing in hundred of bucks, powered by widely adopted Mantle. M$ will react, and hopefully in a constructive way like improving their own proprietary API.Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
agree, if M$, don't react, they sign their own death.
Defered rendering was :banana::banana::banana::banana: ...
To go on last powerfull graphics card at maximum you need a 1000$ CPU, and is still cpu bootleneck in some case.
Dev are loosing time to improve graphics engine CPU speed, instead of doing games, ...
Hope DICE with all that time thay won, will do a solo for BF5, ...
Microsoft can't compete with a hardware manufacturer's api by improving their api. What they need to do is work with amd today or nvidia if they make something similar in the future while i think it will not be a wise idea for them.
Read more at tweaktownQuote:
AMD's Mantle API will work with at least 15 Frostbite-powered games
Jorjen Katsman, from Nixxes, the developer who is working on porting Thief to the PC, said that DirectX 11 has an overhead of around 40%, while Mantle has an overhead of just 8%. Katsman said that it's "not unrealistic that you'd get 20% additional GPU performance" with a Mantle-powered GPU.
hoped fo 30 :D
That probably will be possible and beyond on apps that were specifically targeted with mantle in mind, but only on specific settings which gag DX.Quote:
Originally Posted by madcho
up to 20% on regular apps/settings however will put 290X on top of 780Ti easily
Mantle looks to be the real deal.
Hope to see GCN hardware really shine with its new API.
Nice to AMD CPUs get some love,those overhead reduction look extremely positive.
Maybe all you got bored from what i am saying but i will say it again. If amd found a way that will easily and efficiently port console games to pc mantle then we will pass number 30 very fast.
And i believe linux api is ready but they are waiting for steambox first.
Sent from my SM-N9000Q using Tapatalk
Will this be a software that you install in conjunction with the graphics driver (or bundled with)?
And most importantly: WHEN WILL WE GET IT???
Well, a 20% it is not so much, but thinking in mantle right now when there will not be much games with this API in the next months/year and also with that little improvement, should not worry too much to nvidia.
i am pretty sure they will bundle it like opencl and who knows maybe we already got it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dimitriman
%20 may not seem much but believe me it is much also mantle's only advantage may not be fps gains it may also help to minimize frame delay differences and other things that may lead to more smooth gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kersh
Agree. since 5 years, they did some strange stuff about rendering engine, they introduced a lot of delay. Maybe Games looks more beautifull, but delay kill all. And more the game move, more it's critic. What the point to have 100 fps if you have 100ms between your mouse and your screen, ...Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
They shoud not be worry, they should be embracing it (a little humility will make you go a long long way). both GPU mArchs from each respective major IHVs are not too different nowadays, as AMD's GPU gets more programmable, nVidia's one gets more parallelized doing away with hot clock & getting more CUDA cores. I also believe nVidia engineers are top notch professionals who can make the best possible adaption of Mantle into their work. And while we're at it, it would be amazing should AMD & nVidia cross license True Audio & G-Sync, which will benefit us all. Not to mention if PhysX can be ported into a maturing OpenCL or DirectCompute (such as TressFX which is available to us all). :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kersh
But knowing Jen Hsun Huang, i really went overboard with all of those "optimisms", or shall we say, fantasies. :rolleyes:
Hmm, judging from this excerpt:Quote:
Originally Posted by spursindonesia
http://hothardware.com/News/How-AMDs...-AMD-Hardware/Quote:
.........First the big one. According to multiple sources, including Johan Anderrson from DICE, Mantle is a thin layer abstraction that sits over hardware, not an AMD-specific product. There's no reason NVIDIA couldn't use Mantle in future products and, not surprisingly, multiple speakers at the event expressed interest in seeing that happen at some point in the future...........
I think i have got the answer of my question. :D
Too bad, there's no TECHNICAL reason, but one egotistical REASON would be enough to wash all that hope away (like one thousand reasons to buy a consumer gaming graphic card). :down:
He is a Black Templar. Don't play the tabletop myself, just enjoy the lore/videogames. Though I feel decidedly more Ork-y these days than Space MarineQuote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
Quote:
Originally Posted by spursindonesia
I don't believe this time, it's gonna be the same. Nvidia is Egoist, we all know. They don't want share their work. Mantle look promissing, really. Why nvidia would let AMD a step way ahead in performance without any technical reason, but just that they wouldn't licence AMD's technology, that is gonna be cheap or even free ? +20% on GPU, mean a 7950 would fire on same level as titan in BF4 ...
This is gonna be funny no ? The difference of price is HUGE !!!!, almost nobody have a Titan, because of the price, but a looooooooooooooot of people still have a 7950, or even 78xxx.
They will improve a lot with mantle, and they are so cheap. if nVidia don't accept to play that game, they are gonna loose the leadership for 5 years at least. 5 years in graphic time is very very very lonnnnng
yeah the love for gorgutz and his minions is without boundaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craftyman.
on that note have you tried DOW Pro? and to keep in in topic... will the defunct THQ make a mantle graphics engine for a 10 year old game?... just trying to keep relevant to the topic ;)
People upgrade their gpus for 20 percent wth are you talking about lol nice gain if it is true kudos to amd
Craftyman knows well :cool:
Free upgrade, by the way. Anyone who has a GCN gets free 20 percent.Quote:
Originally Posted by eric66
Disclaimer: It might not be 20 percent but hell... who the hell pushes away free performance? I do that with all my games. Tone down the useless post-processing that did absolutely nothing to quality, set to no AA, and use SMAA for everything.
It's understood that your mileage will vary depending on situation, but i think it will help a lot in the low FPS situation. Say, average FPS "only" jumps by 20% (what, 50 FPS to 60 FPS ?) but lowest FPS shoots up THREE TIMES (like what Oxide guys talking in their presentation) from 15 FPS to 45 FPS, the game would be much more enjoyable.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
the cpu usage is the best news for old cpu owners :D
The biggest improvement, it seems to me, is for the developers. DirectX is a nightmare to develop for at this point. It doesn't matter that your graphics card has got more floating point performance than supercomputer clusters, if the API doesn't allow you to actually get to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kromosto
I remember that years ago MS claimed that DirectX only had a 3% overhead. LOL!!!
read more at rebellion.co.uk/blogQuote:
Rebellion throws weight behind AMD Mantle
We are proud to announce that we will be working closely with AMD to add Mantle support to our in-house game engine, Asura.
As Rebellion's CTO and Co-founder, Chris Kingsley explains, Asura powers all of our games ? from ? from advanced PC titles, to mobile and next-generation console games:
"It supports more platforms than almost any other engine we can think of and has important cutting edge features, including: tessellation, DirectX? 11 Compute Shaders, AMD Eyefinity technology, multi-GPU support and more."
"Our first Mantle supported title will of course be our flagship 2014 game, Sniper Elite 3. And although we can?t talk about them right now we can?t wait to reveal even more titles with Mantle support in the next year."
"Supporting Mantle in all our future PC titles will play a big part in what will be a huge year for Rebellion. 2013 has been a hugely exciting year for the studio, and 2014 is lining up to be even better."
its amazing the widespread support already for this.
It's gonna be way more after BF4 that want go in that way.
asking Blizzard devs if they will implement mantle support, not sure if they have time to reply tho :P
Arent all Blizz games really easy on the hardware? Not much sense in it (although APUs could benefit)Quote:
Originally Posted by Evantaur
there are some settings that will cause extreme frame drops, also after they upgrade their player models there will be a lot more polygons running on screen
They're CPU limited in really heavy fights (such as, 2v2 max supplies battling each other out, or 4v4 / 8-FFA battles). Also, the custom scenario maps have been pushing their game engine plenty of times. This is in Starcraft 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by vario
Strategy games have a lot to gain from Mantle.
EDIT: Also to add, Star Citizen uses CryENGINE and Thief uses UE3. Would that help introduce support for Mantle in other future UE3 and CryENGINE games?
Delving deeper into AMD's Mantle API
by Cyril Kowaliski — 3:30 PM on November 25, 2013, at TechReport
Good read, mostly collection of news from APU13 Developer Conference in San Jose, including some debate about Mantle's possible future as open API.
DICE's Johan Andersson Talks BF4, Frostbite, Mantle, The Future
Long interview at tom'sHARDWARE By Chris Angelini December 2, I was mainly interest to learn more about the Mantle. They talk about it on page 7 and 8, but nothing new there, I think all was talked about already before.
7. What Does A World With Many Low-Level APIs Look Like?
8. What Are The Chances That AMD Shares Mantle With Anyone?
I can't wait to see this in action . But there is one thing that I'm unsure about :
for linux , they don't have to "convert" directx to opengl anymore but can just use the universal Mantle on both windows and linux instead ?
Mantle only supports Windows (for now at least).Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimInalA
So at the moment if a "mantle" game wants to be transfered to linux they have to convert the engine to opengl ?
But does that mean if mantle supports linux (in the future) they don't have to convert the engine anymore ?
I'm not sure if my question is clear now :)
It also depends on if nVidia/Intel adopt Mantle and if they don't the developer has to decide whether to do Mantle & OGL/DX/API X or just 1 or 2 of them. API X is a hypothetical new API made by someone else. For the time being no developer will ONLY support Mantle as it would severely limit their customer base until Intel/nVidia support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimInalA
^^ actually it doesn't.
as far as I understand mantle id designed to work on GNC tech by AMD hardware alone. so that kinda invalidates the framework of your statement
Initially yes, but they have released news updates saying this will no longer be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
The original press releases and details indicated mantle was designed to be pushed beyond GCN...
So, when is that BF4 Mantle patch coming out ?
I remember DICE said around 4 Dec or so, right ?
See the first picture in this article, it shows 'targeting late December'Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchZowner
Considering the state of BF4 right now I highly doubt that Mantle will make a December launch at all. DICE is simply too busy fixing the game across all the platformsQuote:
Originally Posted by BenchZowner
If anything it will run slower and crash more when dice is finished with it. :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomferrari
Mantle doesn't replace DirectX or OGL, it is a specialized driver level (low level) API designed to streamline the way graphics are done.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimInalA
For you older people out there, think of it as a modern day version of Glide... the low level API used by 3dfx back in the day.
Thats allways the case, but like with OpenGL extension ( AMD or NvAPI ) you can put any extension you want and dont use the GCN one, and Mantle will be working.. Ofc, it will not work out of the box, but you can "mod / add your extension in Mantle " and should work on any modern GPU.. ( Mantle is designed with some requirement of latest GPU architectures, who are not available on old GPU like the HD4870 or old Nvidia GPU but who are common on todays nvidia and Amd GPU. ( on memory side, computing etc, virtual adress memory, etc. ) .. The same way some old gpu could not support DX11.2 or DX11 as they dont have the possibility to support some features in hardware )Quote:
Originally Posted by STEvil