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Why you should use biocide pt. 2 **WARNING: graphic!** also, pump disintegration...
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Uh oh it looks like I had a major problem with my pump and I didn't even realize it... the stuff isn't just algae slime, there are PLASTIC SHAVINGS all over the thing and the edges of the impeller are rough :eek:
Oh, crap. It never sounded like it was rubbing or hitting anything and I'm not seeing any real signs of impact or abrasion on the pump top! But there is dark plastic powder all over everything through the whole loop. It is like the impeller was disintegrating :(
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Sparky,
I was just about to say something, until I saw your second post.
Your problem is not H20 related, as you discovered. Personally, I do not put much faith in bio-cides, just use demin or distilled H20 and silver fittings and a kill coil.
Just my 2 cents and good luck cleaning up the mess. :D
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Well the biocide I mean to use it silver. It's working beautifully in my other rig.
I can't even seem to get the two waterblocks clean, and those I can scrub. How am I going to get the radiator clean?? I might have to replace everything. I can't afford that :(
Does anyone have any idea what happened to cause the impeller of the pump to be killing itself like this? Up until I took it apart the pump's been running great, flow has been amazing. Temps were getting worse but that's due to the coating all over everything.... Oh man this sucks so bad :(
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Hmm, all I can suggest is to run some water through the rad with a filter in a loop for a few hours or days..
Edit: Though depending on how well it's stuck in there you may have to add something to the water to loosen it up.
I wonder if dawn dish washing detergent would be helpful/harmful.
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I'm soaking the block parts in hot water with dish soap. I'm hoping it will loosen this stuff up. Combination plastic dust + algae = nightmare.
Once I've determined the extent of the damages I'll see what the cost is and hopefully then can afford to order replacement parts.
At least I can still put all the air coolers back on to get the system back online.
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Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew icky!
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Not sure if bleach is too strong for those parts or not, but I bet it gets rid of the algae.
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What i don't understand is how the impeller color changed. What would cause blue plastic to turn brown/black? It isn't just coated in stuff, it actually is dark :confused:
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soak the blocks in ketchup...
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Trying.
I cut one of the tubes in half. The ground plastic + algae mix is what caused them to get dark. Which means this pump has eaten itself over 3 months ago. Was it still eating itself up to now or had it only done it back then? No clue... Can't say I'd trust using it again however :/
Inside of the tubing
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...041024x768.jpg
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use radiator flush for your rads, don't need new ones.
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Learn from your mistakes, everyone has done it :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Johnny87au
Learn from your mistakes, everyone has done it :)
That's the damned truth.
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I know. EXCEPT I don't know what my mistake this time around was! I thought it was forgetting biocide, but that wouldn't cause the pump to destroy itself :shrug:
I'm currently putting air coolers back on everything to at least get operational again.
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Go for a 1:10 mix of Vinegar to Distilled Water (or stronger) and leave sit in your rads for a while (several hours) but be sure to fully flush as you don't want Vinegar left over when you start your loop again.
Failing that, bleach might be a bit extreme however I've never had to resort to that method.
Let us know how you get on regardless so we know in case this ever happens to us :)
-PB
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It is a real PITA that I live in UK sometimes (most times). I have a spare d5 or 2 and a pa120.3 that could keep you going for a while, if you can salvage the blocks, but I feel that the postal costs would be prohibitive
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Well the blocks are starting to clean up after soaking for a while but it is very slow going. The issue is getting down in all those crevices. I don't want to put the blocks back in a loop until I'm sure they are clean.
You know what's really sad? my CPU is running slightly cooler on air with an HR-01 plus (good but not the best sink) with dual fans than it was on water :wierd:
Graphics card is another thing, the stock cooler is keeping it at 75C at idle lol.
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I've never used biocide in any of my water-cooled rigs. Just Pentosin from Petra's. http://www.petrastechshop.com/peg11coadb4o.html The tubing gets cloudy after a year. Never any algae or slime. :)
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OK I scrubbed the impeller and the plastic is still blue. It is just covered in that brown stuff. I am assuming the brown is dead algae? That's the only thing I can think of :shrug: The impeller is blue so that means the fine brown coating on everything can't be from the impeller grinding itself. And I still don't know what it could have been grinding against, unless delrin is that much harder than the plastic impeller to not show any signs of rubbing whatsoever... The impeller undeniably had coarse plastic grit/shavings stuck to it that I wiped off.
I keep looking at the impeller and thinking maybe it isn't as bad as I originally thought... If I could clean it up it would probably be OK. But, I don't know HOW to clean it up. So far, nothing I've tried aside from scraping with my fingernail is getting this stuff off. That goes for the impeller, the blocks, fittings, and the guts of the radiator. After soaking in hot water and dish soap, the delrin block tops actually were cleaning up fairly well, as did the pump top. So, whatever this stuff is doesn't stick to delrin too well, but it sticks VERY strongly to metal and whatever the heck the pump impeller is. Figures. I'm almost tempted to try something stronger like carb cleaner on the block bases and fittings to cut this stuff.
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If you can acquire 12% hydrogen peroxide and mix it with warm clean water it makes a very powerful cleaner that's inert to about everything. Just be careful as even 12% H202 is harsh on the skin. (wear gloves and goggles always!)
Soak your parts in this overnight.
The 3% solution found at pharmacies won't work.
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I would stray far away from carb cleaner
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I'd try a wire wool pad to get a skuff on it then leave to soak. Repeat a few times and see if youre getting anywhere. If not put a request up in the FS section for a DDC impeller - there's a few dead ones knocking about so somebody must have one.
Regards cleaning the rads - automotive radiator flush is the way to go. The rest is just vinegar and elbow grease im afraid.
Harsh lesson thoroughy learned!
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Sub'd for future reference.
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wow, it looks like someone shat in your loop
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The state of the impeller reminds me of when a radiator is added to a loop without having water run through it to clean the inside and then you get those shavings inside the loop from inside the radiator. I've seen those slowly act as an abrasive on pumps before and start to whittle down the pumps impeller.
Sure looks nasty inside, this is one reason I go for transparent acrylic blocks on my graphics cards (EK 480 Nickel) and Transparent Pump Tops (XSPC DCC+ Top). I can clearly see what's going on with regards to algae.
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I would clean it all up and run it again. There isn't anything mechanically lost in the pump from what I can see. As long as the two bearing surfaces are still good at the ceramic white ball and the impeller vanes are in tack..a little surface scuffing should affect performance at all. If you wan you could probably even use some light sand paper to smooth out the outside of the impeller.
Not sure what chemicals are ok, but as long as it doesn't attack the plastics or metals, it should be fine to clean with as long as you neutralize and rise it well in the end.
Getting a hose barb for your faucet would probably be helpful too:
http://martinsliquidlab.files.wordpr...pg?w=427&h=640
You can find these at most home improvement centers, helpful for flushing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Martinm210
I would clean it all up and run it again. There isn't anything mechanically lost in the pump from what I can see. As long as the two bearing surfaces are still good at the ceramic white ball and the impeller vanes are in tack..a little surface scuffing should affect performance at all. If you wan you could probably even use some light sand paper to smooth out the outside of the impeller.
Not sure what chemicals are ok, but as long as it doesn't attack the plastics or metals, it should be fine to clean with as long as you neutralize and rise it well in the end.
Getting a hose barb for your faucet would probably be helpful too:
http://martinsliquidlab.files.wordpr...pg?w=427&h=640
You can find these at most home improvement centers, helpful for flushing.
Martin, but isn't tap water not safe, warm or not, since it contains lots of minerals?
How safe is that? Especially when you're mixing metals in your loop.
Don't think that is such a great idea. Sure it's convenient, but not safe.
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daedao: but it's at great flow/pressure, and for sure will wash out more residue from whatever left in rad from soldering or from rad usage from whatever algae usage or those LC premixes, then it will leave on it's own from minerals dissolved in tap water. And you can rinse after tap water with distilled.
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It's like when you clean your car, you rinse with demineralized in order to avoid stains when the droplets dry up.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
daedao
Martin, but isn't tap water not safe, warm or not, since it contains lots of minerals?
How safe is that? Especially when you're mixing metals in your loop.
Don't think that is such a great idea. Sure it's convenient, but not safe.
Do you think the radiator and block manufacturers are flushing with distilled water?
Do you think the water used in their flushing process is even potable water?
I highly doubt it....the whole water purity push is all marketing from those selling you double distilled ultra pure snake oil.
There is also nothing to stop you from running some distilled down there after the initial scrub. Mineral deposits are not going to happen in an hours time.
I've used tap water for testing and flushing for years, never had an issue. I wouldn't suggest it for filling a system, but I've tried that too (filtered). The problem is not everyone's tap water is exactly the same quality.
Regardless, I think we would all be horrified if we saw the water quality in those radiator plants and we worry about potable tap water minerals?
I wouldn't worry about it...just flush with some distilled afterwards...:)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sparky
Uh oh it looks like I had a major problem with my pump and I didn't even realize it... the stuff isn't just algae slime, there are PLASTIC SHAVINGS all over the thing and the edges of the impeller are rough :eek:(
its platicizer sparky..
nothing to freak out about... and it was most likely in solution until u drained it, where though friction it got deposited on the walls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daedao
Martin, but isn't tap water not safe, warm or not, since it contains lots of minerals?
How safe is that? Especially when you're mixing metals in your loop.
Don't think that is such a great idea. Sure it's convenient, but not safe.
to wash, its fine..
i do it all the time, because you wont get 60psi though anything but city water line.
And you will require that much psi at times to push lodged stuff out.
Its important that you rince tho.
As martin said, it has a lot to do with your city water supply.
If you live in france where its heavily flourated, i wouldnt risk rincing anything out.
If u have hard water, once again, calcium despoits are a PITFA, so i rince out.
I would never fill with city tap water tho, over time if u let it out, it starts to smell bad.
That itself should tell you the quality of water.
Now if i lived in Des Moines, Iowa; Austin, Texas; and Sioux Falls, S.D., i wouldnt mind using TAP water as long as i kept it topped off, and flushed frequently..... As those cities probably have the cleanest tap water.
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Sparky, try using Weiman Instant Tarnish Remover on the copper blocks after scrubbing any loose biomass out of the blocks--it should completely strip them (I've had a FuZion base go black before without any sort of scrubbing-removable deposit being present). Keep in mind that this stuff will also strip any sort of anti-tarnish coating off as well, wear gloves, neutralize with dish soap and running water. It's worth a shot as a last resort.
As for the "black plastic shavings" you were noticing, my first thought would be to check the carbon bearing seat (the cup that the ceramic bearing pops into on the underside of the rotor)... aside from that, NaeKuh may be right.
Rubycon's H2O2 suggestion is interesting... something I haven't tried before.
Q-Tips, toothbrushes, and 99% IPA should do a pretty good job cleaning up most of the other parts (like the POM block internals, fittings, pump internals, etc.). Just keep the IPA away from tubing, seals, and anything acrylic and rinse all parts thoroughly after cleaning with IPA. Most people freak out over the use of IPA but, provided that appropriate precautions are taken, it can be used safely.
As a side note, most of the DDC impellers will disassemble with a simple twisting motion, requiring very little effort:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
Correct, the pins are for balancing... however, the 2-piece impellers in the DDC-3's aren't glued. A counter-clockwise twist will allow you to remove to top portion for service/cleaning and it snaps back into place with a clockwise twist. Granted, I'm not sure why the OP's would have done that while in operation... unless, perhaps, the upper portion of the impeller wasn't installed properly at the factory or something.
The old DDC-2 impellers, on the other hand, are either really tight or glued--they have the same internal latch setup but I've never been able to get any of my DDC-2 impellers to budge... every DDC-3.x I've tried could be disassembled very easily.
There are 6 tabs on the inside of the upper portion of the impeller which snap into cutouts on the lower portion of the impeller (I've marked both with arrows below).
http://www.petrastech.com/images/ddcImp-2.jpg
http://www.petrastech.com/images/ddcImp-1.jpg
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I scrubbed the top of the impeller real good (still dark gunk on it) but the plastic doesn't look bad. I think it'll be OK, if I can get it clean. Same with blocks and radiator. I'm going to buy some radiator flush at the auto store and see if that helps.
Petra, I tried the twisting motion on the impeller and all it did was cut my hand :p: How much force does it take to get this daggone thing apart lol.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sparky
Petra, I tried the twisting motion on the impeller and all it did was cut my hand :p: How much force does it take to get this daggone thing apart lol.
Like I said, usually it takes very little effort to remove the upper portion of the two piece impeller... I did encounter the occasional stubborn DDC-3.x (and they would cut me up a tiny bit), but the only ones I could never manage were the orange/red impellered DDC-2s.
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Figures I have to have a really stuck one.
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this thread has to be one of the most extreme instances of algae I've ever seen. Yuck.
The strong hydrogen peroxide sounds like an excellent idea, though I'm not sure where you would buy it.
I've used DOW Scrubbing Bubbles and radiator flush on a number of occasions. The Scrubbing Bubbles are good about getting stuff out of the rad. I just squirt the rad full, let sit for 10-15 min, flush, and rinse. I would think if you do this a few times coupled with some radiator flush, it should do the trick.
Martin's idea of doing a force flush afterwards would be a good idea. Ive done that many times also with rads while hooked up to the kitchen faucet. I do follow with a distilled rinse to get the tap water out.
Even with all of this, you may want to run an inline filter for a bit once you put it all together and crank it up.
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Wow, that's the worst looking loop I think I've ever seen. I'd flush everything out like there was no tomorrow and only stop when it's 100% clear.
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I'm so Glad none of you saw my old Koolance or Thermaltake big water then : ).
this wasn't as bad... hahaha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
voigts
The strong hydrogen peroxide sounds like an excellent idea, though I'm not sure where you would buy it.
https://shoppingcart.purehealthsyste...tegory-s/3.htm
If you're unfamiliar with handing this material, please research it carefully BEFORE acquiring it!
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Even though it isn't needed, I have an unstoppable desire to spray scrubbing bubbles all over my bathroom :)
Happy Cleaning.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rubycon
Might as well buy a new rad for that price :p:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sparky
Well the biocide I mean to use it silver. It's working beautifully in my other rig.
I can't even seem to get the two waterblocks clean, and those I can scrub. How am I going to get the radiator clean?? I might have to replace everything. I can't afford that :(
Does anyone have any idea what happened to cause the impeller of the pump to be killing itself like this? Up until I took it apart the pump's been running great, flow has been amazing. Temps were getting worse but that's due to the coating all over everything.... Oh man this sucks so bad :(
Well, I use a submersible pump and depending how bad will pump water + bleach and then water + clr, finally flush with water (just tap water) all right in the kitchen sink. If you're paranoid you could flush with distilled but it's not caused me any problems. After a while it will take most of that black crap right off. The stubborn parts I just use a toothbrush and dish soap. Don't ask how I know :-)
The setup is pretty easy and the pumps can be found at your local do-it-yourself store. The lower block in the pic below had some black gunk in it and the process above cleaned it all out -- this is at the end of the cycle just pumping clean water through it for about a hour or so.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/k...DSC00982-1.jpg
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Wow dude, your tubing was a completely different color and you waited that long to clean the loop.....? I think I'll cut my losses if my stuff is that bad when I rebuild in 3 months. But my tubing hasnt changed colors in a year in a half and my water is still crystal clear so I think I'll be ok.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wolf132
Wow dude, your tubing was a completely different color and you waited that long to clean the loop.....? I think I'll cut my losses if my stuff is that bad when I rebuild in 3 months. But my tubing hasnt changed colors in a year in a half and my water is still crystal clear so I think I'll be ok.
What are you using for tubing?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wolf132
Wow dude, your tubing was a completely different color and you waited that long to clean the loop.....? I think I'll cut my losses if my stuff is that bad when I rebuild in 3 months. But my tubing hasnt changed colors in a year in a half and my water is still crystal clear so I think I'll be ok.
I thought it was just algae slime on the inside of the tubes, you know, where light could get to it...
Yes, it was stupid to leave it go that long /facepalm But what's done is done.
I'm going to pick up radiator flush stuff today and see what I can do with that stuff.
I'm almost thinking that the stuff on the pump impeller I don't want to worry about too much - I mean seriously, if I can't scrub it off with a brush and hot soapy water, what are the odds of it just coming off while in warm distilled water? :shrug: But that also seems like a bad idea too, so no clue yet what I'm going to do with it yet. I'm going to focus on the radiator and blocks first, then worry about the pump.
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do the hail mary.
Get mouthwash.. and no im not kidding, and pour it inside your rad.
The Alcohol concentration should disolve any organic matter it contains, and leave a nice fresh minty smell to it. lol...
At this point i think even a rad flush might not work properly so im gonna go recomend a heavy oxide, like alcohol.
The rad should be safe from alcohol.
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Biocide overkill me thinks
I did the same thing in my 1st loop. You really only need 2 drops no joke.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
NaeKuh
do the hail mary.
Get mouthwash.. and no im not kidding, and pour it inside your rad.
The Alcohol concentration should disolve any organic matter it contains, and leave a nice fresh minty smell to it. lol...
At this point i think even a rad flush might not work properly so im gonna go recomend a heavy oxide, like alcohol.
The rad should be safe from alcohol.
LOL really? That sounds... interesting :ROTF:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quad-Damage
Biocide overkill me thinks
I did the same thing in my 1st loop. You really only need 2 drops no joke.
No that's not it. I had NO biocide in this loop. I've had too much before in my first loop and it just made things a little murky and funny, nothing like this at all.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
NaeKuh
do the hail mary.
Get mouthwash.. and no im not kidding, and pour it inside your rad.
The Alcohol concentration should disolve any organic matter it contains, and leave a nice fresh minty smell to it. lol...
At this point i think even a rad flush might not work properly so im gonna go recomend a heavy oxide, like alcohol.
The rad should be safe from alcohol.
The other one that I heard about, but have not tried yet, is.....
Tablets/solutions for cleaning (by soaking) dentures
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the only thing is to avoid is clorox..
dude ive tried that... and it stains yellow... avoid it..
But yeah... denture tablets work too, as i said your after the high oxide.
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things would be alot easier if parts companies designed their parts with different plastic materials other than acrylic or acetal. polycarbo or something that's super resistant would make things alot easier to use real heavy duty cleaners, even as much as brake cleaner or oven cleaners. talk about getting something clean... couple squirts and jobs done!
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it would also cost a lot more, and :up: Quad damage for only looking at pictures ;)
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So, I decided to try some brake cleaner on the MCW60 base as nothing else was having any effect. Even that didn't make the slightest difference in the junk on the block :eek: I think I'm screwed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sparky
So, I decided to try some brake cleaner on the MCW60 base as nothing else was having any effect. Even that didn't make the slightest difference in the junk on the block :eek: I think I'm screwed.
Some form of permanent metallic stain perhaps?
Sorry for your loss! :(
-PB
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Well if I scrape at it with my nails it will come off. But I can't get my nails in between the pins and stuff in the blocks.
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Have you tried a brass bristled brush?
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Actually, no I haven't. I'll have to look for one next time I'm at the store. no idea where I'd find it actually but I'll look :D
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They're commonly used to clean BBQ grills, might want to start there.
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Even so, if that works to clean the blocks I'm still not convinced I'll be able to get the radiator clean.
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I can't be bothered to go through the whole topic...have you tried vinegar or CLR yet? If not, get some CLR too and just let the stuff work the parts over for a while. Any chance of getting access to any ultrasonic cleaner big enough for the rad? If so, try that too.
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Tried Coke? :D
Just don't leave Copper in there for very long :eek:
-PB
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Sparky, besides algae and the debris the dark colored surface on your blocks looks like oxidation to me.
have a look at this thread where i used lemon acid and salt to get rid of oxidation.
just drop the blocks in and wait. this completely works at its own.
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Sparky, for any very hard to remove residue I'd try dishwasher detergent. Use a high concentration like 1 tablet on half to one litre and everything organic will be gone over night.
I use this to periodically clean the inside of my coffeepot which is one of these that are made from steel, they're prone to build up a sort of coffee patina..
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Brakleen is a strong organic solvent made for dissolving grease based contaminants. It will do little to remove corrosion. A local acid treatment followed by neutralization with H2O2 efflorescencing scrub will do the trick. These are pro methods not usually associated with pc watercooling but well known in other fields using water cooling. They are procedure specific and involve specific materials handling and instrumentation to avoid costly system damage and even personal injury!
The good news is with proper commencement of said procedure tear down is not required and the results are quite good. (again if done correctly)
I suppose this is why the majority of the hobbyists will tear everything down and clean manually.
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I haven't been to the store to pick up anything else to try, but I have been experimenting nonetheless. And I've got a little bit of positive stuff to report - I have a "tub and tile" natural cleaner that I soaked the base of my Fuzion in for a few hours. Was going to be an hour, but I forgot about it :ROTF: Scrubbed it with the old toothbrush and wouldn't you know, really black and icky cleaner frothed up and rinsed off, and I can see copper again! Not perfect, so I'm giving it another round, but it is progress!
And another plus, the company I order from accidentally sent another bottle with the recent order. Why, I don't know. They said it was their mistake, so keep it. Woot, extra cleaner of the right type! Enough to soak the radiator in probably.
No worries, I'll be sure to thoroughly flush EVERYTHING very well. I don't want cleaner residue foaming up in my loop :D
*edit* another soaking and the block bases are almost back to a usable state. Just a little bit of stuff left in some crevices and edges. Progress! Then the radiator, and the fittings, and I still need to get a new pump impeller... yeah this could still take some time :lol2:
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Good news! Soaked the fittings in the cleaner and the cleaner turned a funny greenish color while the dark film covering everything on the fittings completely dissolved in it!
So block bases are clean, fittings clean, now just to get the block uppers and the radiator done.
One thing I noticed about the stuff in the blocks was it seemed a little shiny. Upon getting the fittings cleaned several of them have had the nickel plate flaked off in various spots. Most of them have the plating on the threads worn a bit. The Aquaextreme barbs for my old-style MCR320 have some nickel missing on the barb lip. Same with the EK barbs from my reservoir. A bitspower elbow has almost the entire inside of the corner missing the nickel plating. Interestingly enough, the Dtek barbs are least affected, with only the threads showing bare brass.
Most of the fittings were bought back in 2007, so some wear and flaking isn't surprising in one sense. Just some interesting info I thought. Am I risking the flaking getting worse and jamming up the pump or blocks?
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last resort
If your down to the last option try brasso or silvo with stiff tooth brush
