Thermalfins radiators

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03-02-2011, 01:09 AM
SpuTnicK

Thermalfins radiators

Ok, so we have all been so existed with the new TFC radiator line-up-Admiral-that was delayed for several times now. But it looks like they are not coming out at all due to some misunderstanding between Feser guys and its partners: FrozenCPU and LottersMettal. While the first is popular for its great watercooling shop, the last one, less know in watercooling community, is German manufacturing company that decided to go on his own and prepared a new line of PC watercooling radiators - Thermalfins
http://www.abload.de/img/termalfins-x_x5004e04.png
An overview article on first Thermalfins product was recently published on hw-lab.com: Thermalfins — a new contribution to watercooling
As we see these have similar cooling design compared to first revision of Admiral rads since both were designed and manufactured by the same company in Germany - LottersMettal (not a partner of TFC anymore)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom from LottersMettal

TFC tried to twit me on the worst way…! There´s no patent owned by TFC…because…a contract has to be signed ( this contract was done by the patent attorney )…this contract should arrange the cooperation between TFC and me…and after all was done, TFC didn´t sign it !

Tom is the same guy that was interviewed on hw-lab.com (currently not available) to reveal details of design features of Admiral rads:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artem (hw-lab.com)

Can you tell us about materials that are used in the production of these radiators?

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Tom (developer)

"The material, these radiators are made of, is aluminum and stainless-steel. The first reason was, to get this rads done in compliance with ROHS-confirmation. No lead (Pb) and no Cadmium (Cd) inside. But there´s no aluminum in the water-channels! The water-bearing parts are made of a really fine stainless tube, with an inside structure, which allows an optimal thermal transfer to the outside aluminum-fins. Everyone knows about the heat conductance of copper and we all know, that stainless steel is worse than copper. But, in this case we only need a thermal breakthrough to the aluminum and that’s mostly dependent on physical inertia. The wall-thickness of the stainless tube is only 0,2mm. So, the heat of the coolant is moving right through to the alu-fins…

This is true for Thermalfins rads too, which again indicates similarities between newcomer rads and Admiral. But this also shows that Feser could have placed orders at LottersMettal to produce Admiral. Here is how Tom comments the situation:

Quote:

Many of you might be familiar with the history of these radiators, so I'll skip this "dark chapter of a cooperation".
It's true that the radiators look a lot alike as they are part of the same "family".
The entire production is designed for high quality...starting at the used materials (I know...stainless steel), over the way surface treatment, to the service. Why stainless steel out of all the possibilities?
When taking a look at the prices of copper, one can see that they are skyrocketing. Stainless steel can't transfer heat as good as copper, but, and this is the most important part, if I cover a 0.2mm thick pipe out of stainless steel with an aluminum pipe, the material of the inner pipe gets less and less important... (Did anyone ever touch a knife out of stainless steel, that just came out of the dishwasher? It's damn hot!)...a thermal breakthrough occurs, the thermal conductivity of the aluminum is all that counts, so everything works out just fine. So much for the stainless steel issue.
Also, there's no soldering involved in the production. Everything is welded together by lasers, resulting in no deformation at all. It also doesn't require any additives, so the radiators are fully RoHS-compilant.

I hope I was able to explain a few things...
Regards,
Tom / thermalfins

Thanks bundymania for translation:up:

Finally, here are some pics to get more excited :)
http://hw-lab.com/uploads/cooling/li...-x3-1_x275.jpg http://hw-lab.com/uploads/cooling/li...-x3-5_x275.jpg http://hw-lab.com/uploads/cooling/li...-x3-9_x275.jpg http://hw-lab.com/uploads/cooling/li...x3-11_x275.jpg

Still waiting for first test results
:welcome:
03-02-2011, 01:47 AM
Church

These probably will be more reasonably priced, both because no modular design, and maybe because of more sensible pricing policy then mad price markups by TFC. Now just waiting for performance numbers.
03-02-2011, 02:04 AM
matari

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchy

These probably will be more reasonably priced, both because no modular design, and maybe because of more sensible pricing policy then mad price markups by TFC. Now just waiting for performance numbers.

Wrong; TFC went modular to cut production cost. That does not mean TFC would not just pocket the difference. For the tripple radiator, 250 USD is what is floating around. Not sure that is an accurate number, we will have to wait and see.
03-02-2011, 04:28 AM
sunnyville

you can look on hw labs it says exactly how much they weill cost - for example 180€ for the tripple 140mm rad. Not cheap, but then again if, due to their thickness an different build, they are able to dissipate more heat than a current tripple rad, the price might be justified

edit - sorry the tripple is 185 Euros. No price announced yet for the X1, X2 or X4
03-02-2011, 04:47 AM
SpuTnicK

But but but... it also says "Subject to change". So hopefully we'll see more appealing price tag ;)
Still, performance is top priority, IMHO, then the price
03-02-2011, 05:26 AM
zalbard

I'm waiting to see how their 60mm thick rads do.
105mm thick is so impractical, doesn't fit almost anywhere...
They don't even have their own web-site, do they?
03-02-2011, 05:39 AM
IanM

http://thermalfins.com/ - just a placeholder though, all it says is:

Quote:

thermalfin´s X3 Radiators ... coming soon !
03-02-2011, 06:00 AM
JoeBar

New players in the game is always interesting. Let's see...

Grabs pop-corn... :D
03-02-2011, 06:16 AM
rubix_1011

Let's just hope this doesn't end up like it did last September/October with the Admirals...

I just want to see some benchmarks and reviews to see if these are worth all the hype. Ya know...I hear there's a new unicorn farm out in Colorado...
03-02-2011, 06:35 AM
sunnyville

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubix_1011

Ya know...I hear there's a new unicorn farm out in Colorado...

:rofl:
03-03-2011, 05:30 PM
skeyo

The price of 180€ is for 110mm version that is something like monsta radiators were priced few years ago.
03-03-2011, 06:31 PM
Aaronharmon

This whole mess makes me sick. Frozen has high prices, but they have always treated me right and my orders have been perfect every time. I hate to see them lose their asses on this. TFC is a joke and I will never buy anything marketed by them /rant
03-05-2011, 08:27 PM
the finisher

As far as TFC goes, I have never been very impressed w/them, or their products. They will likely fade away with time.

I am very interested in this new rad design, time will tell if it's new and improved.

If it's good, it'll be the first real forward move in rad design since the original TC PA160.1. That goes back quite awhile.

I really want this to be a game changer, still have doubts about it though. Need some testing soon.
03-05-2011, 09:07 PM
PatRaceTin

it big
03-05-2011, 09:15 PM
Aaronharmon

Honestly, I don't think there will be anymore "game changers". I think improvements will be incremental. I am honestly much more excited about Swiftech's new "Extreme Performance" line. The qp rads performed as well as rads twice their size.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
03-05-2011, 09:26 PM
ScottALot

Yeah we're really not getting much improvement for thermals... so why get this rad? Because it looks sick as hell!

In all seriousness, pretty much all cooling methods are approaching their asymptotes pretty fast, sadly. It's inevitable, really... but creativity isn't going anywhere! Hopefully these rads are able to perform better in certain airflow conditions that conventional radiators couldn't touch.
03-05-2011, 10:21 PM
iddqd

oh wow, you could make a sandwich with 2 normal thickness rads and it will be just as thick as one of these things.
03-14-2011, 12:20 AM
SpuTnicK

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinnee

I should be getting one soon, it will go on the bench as soon as it arrives.

Source

Looking good!
03-14-2011, 12:47 AM
iandh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaronharmon

This whole mess makes me sick. Frozen has high prices, but they have always treated me right and my orders have been perfect every time. I hate to see them lose their asses on this. TFC is a joke and I will never buy anything marketed by them /rant

Another way you can look at it is that other reseller's prices are too low.

The price wars have gotten to the point where the manufacturers (myself and others) barely have any money to be made, because we're constantly under pressure from our resellers to offer lower and lower wholesale prices.

Resellers getting in a pissing match with each other over pricing only hurts the entire manufacturer and reseller community as a whole.

I'm not saying competition is bad, what I'm saying is that resellers that sell at or below cost just to "win" with the lowest price, end up shooting themselves in the foot, because they devalue the item for the entire market, and start the cycle all over again.

Frozen's higher prices are the reason they've done so well, expanded, and are able to make large investments in watercooling companies such as Feser, regardless of whether those investments work out or not. Overall they're a benefit to the community IMO.

Now, smaller overhead, mom & pop shops also have their place, and are able to offer lower prices because of it. As long as they don't go overboard, there's room in the market for both.
03-14-2011, 03:11 AM
BeepBeep2

Quote:

Originally Posted by matari

Wrong; TFC went modular to gain more profit. That does mean TFC would have just pocketed the difference. For the tripple radiator, 250 USD is what is floating around. Not sure that is an accurate number, we will have to wait and see.

:p:
03-14-2011, 09:41 AM
NaeKuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by iandh

Another way you can look at it is that other reseller's prices are too low.

The price wars have gotten to the point where the manufacturers (myself and others) barely have any money to be made, because we're constantly under pressure from our resellers to offer lower and lower wholesale prices.

Resellers getting in a pissing match with each other over pricing only hurts the entire manufacturer and reseller community as a whole.

your tipping on a doubled edged sword here with this statement.

Yes we have been spoiled silly with the MCR320, but that was a good move by swiftech.

Because the MCR320 is so cheap, its called the Camry of radiators, and hence like camry's there spam'd.

Spaming MCR320's means more people are buying water products which is an overall win.

And Rad prices, i still think are a bit inflated.

Im sorry, if i can go out and pick up a full copper Koyo rad retail, which has more quality then any of our rads, for as much as a 120x4 radiator... OUR radiators are overpriced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBar

New players in the game is always interesting. Let's see...

Grabs pop-corn... :D

HW-labs??

Dude they been in the game a very very very long time.
Its the first rad company Danger Den paired up with.

Anyhow id like to see numbers on this radiator.
Ive seen videos, and it was sexy... no joke...

But the main question that boggles my head is did they managed to do what magicool couldnt.

As i was saying in another thread, magicool has been playing with the ideas of passive radiator.
And this radiator looks like its a upgraded version of this guy:

http://resources.vr-zone.com/Shamino...t/IMG_0834.jpg

http://resources.vr-zone.com/Shamino...t/IMG_0835.jpg

Incase your wondering.. magicool never released that unit, because they told me personally it failed.

I tried very hard to get a sample of that radiator...

lol...
03-14-2011, 09:48 AM
Church

This is niche. Niche products always are premium priced. Imho those auto/moto rads are sold in much bigger volumes then PC LC gear.
03-14-2011, 09:52 AM
NaeKuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchy

This is niche. Niche products always are premium priced. Imho those auto/moto rads are sold in much bigger volumes then PC LC gear.

that being said there is no room to argue on a price of a MCR320.

which was gabes intension.

You think cheap, solid radiator, what pops in your head?
To me its the MCR! :D

And i think gabe likes it that way.
03-14-2011, 09:55 AM
Waterlogged

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

that being said there is no room to argue on a price of a MCR320.

which was gabes intension.

You think inexpensive, solid radiator, what pops in your head?
To me its the MCR! :D

And i think gabe likes it that way.

Fixed. :rolleyes:
03-14-2011, 10:21 AM
Church

Often european rad vendor rads are cheaper in europe side of pond LC shops then swiftech's though. So it's not exactly world dominating, but close :)
03-14-2011, 10:31 AM
zalbard

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchy

Often european rad vendor rads are cheaper in europe side of pond LC shops then swiftech's though. So it's not exactly world dominating, but close :)

Unlike these new Coolgate rads that are made in EU but are also more expensive in EU than in US (and actually end up being the most expensive rads around). :rolleyes:
03-14-2011, 12:05 PM
Church

zalbard: I meant EK/Phobya/Magicool and alike.
03-14-2011, 12:18 PM
zalbard

Yeah, I am just complaining for the sake of complaining. Price gouging is :down:
03-14-2011, 12:25 PM
SpuTnicK

Who says Coolgate are made in Europe? just because the press release is both in German and English, it does not say they are made in Europe. Or I am missing something?
And price wise, don't forget about presence of VAT for Europe ;)
03-14-2011, 12:47 PM
NaeKuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

And price wise, don't forget about presence of VAT for Europe ;)

now VAT is a pain.... both in a serious sense.. and pun sense..
03-15-2011, 03:07 PM
JoeBar

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

HW-labs??

Dude they been in the game a very very very long time.
Its the first rad company Danger Den paired up with.

I didn't meant HW-Labs, but the rad itself... :)
03-15-2011, 03:27 PM
Martinm210

Are there any performance results yet up on these?
03-15-2011, 03:43 PM
skinnee

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpuTnicK

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinnee

I should be getting one soon, it will go on the bench as soon as it arrives.

Source

Looking good!

I can't hide anywhere from you can I? :p:
03-16-2011, 01:33 AM
SpuTnicK

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinnee

I can't hide anywhere from you can I? :p:

nope :D
i am everywhere :p:
03-16-2011, 12:47 PM
PiLsY

So with those tubes all being sequential flow with loads of 90's to connect them does anyone else worry its perhaps going to be just a teeny bit restrictive? Thats gotta be at least 5 metres of tube in there. Better have good head pressure to shift a large air pocket too. Worse heat exchange wasnt the only drawback of the old tube and fin cube style rads compared to cores.

Either way, price fail. I'll take 4 MCR320s instead plz.
03-22-2011, 01:10 PM
Xandrus

Maybe something interesting by Watercool ;)

http://www.watercool.de/_forum/wbb/i...7792#post47792

It's german so you should use google translate, but there are enough pictures + numbers ;)
03-22-2011, 03:55 PM
phantomferrari

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xandrus

Maybe something interesting by Watercool ;)

http://www.watercool.de/_forum/wbb/i...7792#post47792

It's german so you should use google translate, but there are enough pictures + numbers ;)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4...r-troopers.jpg
03-22-2011, 04:00 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xandrus

Maybe something interesting by Watercool ;)

http://www.watercool.de/_forum/wbb/i...7792#post47792

It's german so you should use google translate, but there are enough pictures + numbers ;)

Interesting...thanks!:up:
03-22-2011, 04:06 PM
Church

Hmm, i can easily imagine that "Extended" 6 section rad in something like aquacomputer's external rad setups, would look nice near Hi-Fi speakers, imho much better then some squared Mo-Ra alikes.
03-22-2011, 05:22 PM
skeyo

You can extend it to be room length, put in on ceiling, and put some LED fans on rad ;)
04-21-2011, 06:44 AM
bundymania

Update

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9445/img1043o.jpg

:D
04-21-2011, 06:54 AM
m0r7if3r

Man...that's one heck of a tease.
04-24-2011, 03:36 PM
bundymania

Here it is :)

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1109csvy.jpg

This radgril "protoype" was in the package aswell, maybe it´s available in the future:

http://www.abload.de/img/img_10925rs2.jpg

...like the design ?

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1095kodc.jpg

rubber stands for the radiator:

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1099bqex.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1130stft.jpg

and more pics from the rad:

http://www.abload.de/img/img_11033rzw.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1106jpao.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1110po6h.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1112lpya.jpg

as you can see, the Thermalfins Logo is on 1 side only:

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1113eri2.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1116rrfm.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1118ro1g.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1122ftmq.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1123iq7r.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1124oplg.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_11254p61.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_1128bs35.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_11348sye.jpg
04-24-2011, 03:48 PM
zalbard

Need performance numbers! :D
04-24-2011, 06:38 PM
meanmoe

Looks like poor space utilization to me. The numbers better sing.
04-24-2011, 06:49 PM
Martinm210

Thanks for the pictures Bundy, look forward to your results!
04-25-2011, 02:04 AM
PiLsY

Quote:

Originally Posted by meanmoe

Looks like poor space utilization to me. The numbers better sing.

Can't say it any better.
04-25-2011, 02:07 AM
masska

The workmanship/finish looks pretty damn good. Lets wait for the numbers now and if they perform as good as they look,,, I will certainly be supporting them.
04-25-2011, 05:18 AM
c.ruel

Assuming this thing performs well (big if), I hope they get the smaller sizes out pretty fast.

Also I am really grateful to all the testing people have done in their own time with little or no reimbursment but there is little testing on (that I can find at least) regarding slim radiators with fans in push pull vs thick radiators with fans in pull. This becomes even more relevant with the thermal fins radiator. Just assume for a moment that the thermal fins performs better than an SR-1 at low speed, like an RX at mid speed and better than a GTX at full speed. But does it perform better than those radiators when they have two fans and it only has one? That is the acid test because it is going to cost way more than any of the current "thick" radiators and take up just as much room as one of the current "thick" radiators with fans in push pull.

Radiators seem to be getting thicker and thicker but there is no testing comparing thin radiators with two sets of fans which cost half the price of thick radiators with one set of fans, which occupy the same amount of space. I am just amazed that none of the manufacturers have commissioned this research themselves.
04-25-2011, 05:27 AM
NEOAethyr

Purdy :).
Can't wait to see what she does.

I'm looking forward to these when I step up to water cooling someday.
I'll be using a couple 120mm ver's in parallel though.
Lined up together in series, with a fan inbetween each rad.
From the front of my case to the back :D.
That's my plan anyways, but I'm to poor to implement it right now.
But someday.

It's nice to finally see a new tech...
04-25-2011, 05:46 AM
zalbard

That radiator grill looks awesome.
The radiator iself is sexy, too, just waaay too fat. Their thinner models should be interesting.
04-25-2011, 08:19 AM
subtec

The core looks like it's only about 80mm wide... sure seems like a waste of space. I wonder if they have a good reason for it...
04-25-2011, 08:40 AM
zalbard

Probably manufacturing cost it is...
04-25-2011, 08:50 AM
SNiiPE_DoGG

Anyone have a diagram or better pics of how this thing is supposed to work? or is that one big secret?

As far as my thermals understanding goes (pretty far as a junior ME student) the problem with radiators is the water surface area to air surface area ratio. That is to say you want more air surface area than water surface area (by a BIG factor) in order to even the difference between the heat transfer coefficient of the air which is low (~ 0.024) to the heat transfer coefficient of the water (~ 0.58)/brass/copper which is pretty high. For a simple balance of the heat transfer coefficients your air surface area would need to be ~24 times that of your water surface area to reach a balance. Obviously a little fudging is going on in the numbers for simplicities sake, but you can see where I am starting to lose it with this rad design....

In laymans terms - we have no problem heating our radiators up, it's cooling them down with such a poor heat conductor that is the problem.

The thing is that as I can see how this radiator design functions, it is trending towards a much more equal ratio of water surface area to air surface area which is not a good thing.... so theres gotta be some trick to it.
04-25-2011, 08:59 AM
Vapor

How does it mount to a case? Those white plastic pop nuts (is that what they are?) don't look nearly strong enough to support a loaded radiator (fans + water).
04-25-2011, 09:12 AM
tool_462

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapor

How does it mount to a case? Those white plastic pop nuts (is that what they are?) don't look nearly strong enough to support a loaded radiator (fans + water).

They look like wall anchors. Assuming they include some for 6-32 screws and M4 screws. Makes sense to me and should mount like a rock :up:
04-25-2011, 09:57 AM
meanmoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG

Anyone have a diagram or better pics of how this thing is supposed to work? or is that one big secret?

As far as my thermals understanding goes (pretty far as a junior ME student) the problem with radiators is the water surface area to air surface area ratio. That is to say you want more air surface area than water surface area (by a BIG factor) in order to even the difference between the heat transfer coefficient of the air which is low (~ 0.024) to the heat transfer coefficient of the water (~ 0.58)/brass/copper which is pretty high. For a simple balance of the heat transfer coefficients your air surface area would need to be ~24 times that of your water surface area to reach a balance. Obviously a little fudging is going on in the numbers for simplicities sake, but you can see where I am starting to lose it with this rad design....

In laymans terms - we have no problem heating our radiators up, it's cooling them down with such a poor heat conductor that is the problem.

The thing is that as I can see how this radiator design functions, it is trending towards a much more equal ratio of water surface area to air surface area which is not a good thing.... so theres gotta be some trick to it.

Is that ratio of ~24 assume passive only, i.e. convection only? For forced convection, the heat flux is a function of area, velocity, and requires consideration of the boundary layer. That's probably the trick. Cylindrical tubes will have slightly better Reynolds numbers than traditional tubes and the small nozzle action from the shroud will raise the local velocity. So, it's an attempt to win by optimizing for reduced boundary layer + higher velocity. This is just a guess too though.
04-25-2011, 10:12 AM
SNiiPE_DoGG

Quote:

Originally Posted by meanmoe

Is that ratio of ~24 assume passive only, i.e. convection only? For forced convection, the heat flux is a function of area, velocity, and requires consideration of the boundary layer. That's probably the trick. Cylindrical tubes will have slightly better Reynolds numbers than traditional tubes and the small nozzle action from the shroud will raise the local velocity. So, it's an attempt to win by optimizing for reduced boundary layer + higher velocity. This is just a guess too though.

Yes convection only, and yeah thats why I didnt take it any further because it get complicated fast. I was only trying to illustrate the need for a high ratio.

Interesting point about the reduced boundry layer part, it's a possibility but I don't have the time to work the thermals on it right now because I am sitting in thermals class! the nozzle will be beneficial but you will need to make up for it with higher static pressure fans...
05-12-2011, 06:04 PM
D749

Damn it. Every time I'm about new WC items sometime new comes out a day prior or after. :shakes: Guess I'll wait another week or so and see what these can do. Any idea when they'll be available in the US?
05-12-2011, 06:12 PM
Aedubber

any update yet on that MONSTER rad ? lol thing is huge
05-12-2011, 06:23 PM
homefry

How would one of this compare to an XSPC RX360?
05-26-2011, 05:52 AM
bundymania

Statement from Thermalfins:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community...82-post92.html
05-26-2011, 05:59 AM
zalbard

TL;DR version: the current revision does not perform well enough, they have performed a redesign (and made prototypes), the new revision is coming in a few months = delayed release.
05-26-2011, 06:07 AM
ximius

Quote:

Originally Posted by zalbard

TL;DR version: the current revision does not perform well enough, they have performed a redesign (and made prototypes), the new revision is coming in a few months = delayed release.

So expect these to be cooling whatever chip replaces Ivy Bridge.
05-26-2011, 07:25 AM
skeyo

Delayed again those rads will never go to production. I would like to see them outperform current rads but all those delays doesn't give me confidence.
05-26-2011, 09:05 AM
gmat

Duke Nukem Forever is gold and will be shipping before these radiators are real. This says a lot.
05-26-2011, 10:30 AM
Waterlogged

There was a number of ppl that questioned the "potential performance" of this radical design from the start when it supposedly belonged to another company (myself included), looks like they learned the hard expensive way. Now they're going to try again with a hybrid design, hope they're not wasting more money on that.
05-26-2011, 12:23 PM
eth0s

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubix_1011

I hear there's a new unicorn farm out in Colorado...

There's a new Unicorn Farm in CO? Really? That's awesome, 'cuz I really need a new one. :yepp: (Wait, is this off-topic?)

Well on-topic: That new Thermalfins rad looks good to me, because it looks you won't be needing to use shrouds on them babies. (which is the purpose of the 80mm core, btw)

Now on to the issue of heat transfer: It seems to me that two things are going on here: (1) the water flows in the opposite direction to the air; and (2) there is a larger mass of copper in this design, than would be used in a "normal" rad fin/ copper tube design (this might also account for the much higher price, as there is a lot more copper, and copper is more expensive than ever.) IMO, this rad design is intended to be a counter-flow design heat exchanger, instead of the traditional cross-flow that exists in every other rad. Now I don't really know if that will make it a better performing rad or not, but the designers obviously think it will. The increased mass of copper used in this design is interesting as well, for a greater mass of copper would allow greater heat dissipation. When a copper radiator is exposed to forced convection, the amount of heat dissipated is proportional to the temperature differential between the copper and the air (obviously), AND it is also proportional to the mass of the copper used in the rad (not the surface area). (That is Newton's Law of Cooling for a body exposed to a draft, or as best as I can remember it, one of you college boys can go look it up.)
05-26-2011, 02:08 PM
Martinm210

That's too bad..:(... but cheers to testing to sort out the right air contact area balance and hope for the best in a future revision.
05-26-2011, 05:26 PM
subtec

Quote:

Originally Posted by eth0s

Well on-topic: That new Thermalfins rad looks good to me, because it looks you won't be needing to use shrouds on them babies. (which is the purpose of the 80mm core, btw)

Not sure I follow this... the purpose of a shroud is to allow the airflow to spread out a bit between the fan and the fins, to lessen the deadspots at the hub and corners... I fail to see how making the core narrower helps anything, other than possibly increasing airspeed through the Venturi effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eth0s

Now on to the issue of heat transfer: It seems to me that two things are going on here: (1) the water flows in the opposite direction to the air;

What do you mean here? It looks like the water flows perpendicular to the airflow, just as in a normal rad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eth0s

and (2) there is a larger mass of copper in this design, than would be used in a "normal" rad fin/ copper tube design (this might also account for the much higher price, as there is a lot more copper, and copper is more expensive than ever.) IMO, this rad design is intended to be a counter-flow design heat exchanger, instead of the traditional cross-flow that exists in every other rad. Now I don't really know if that will make it a better performing rad or not, but the designers obviously think it will. The increased mass of copper used in this design is interesting as well, for a greater mass of copper would allow greater heat dissipation. When a copper radiator is exposed to forced convection, the amount of heat dissipated is proportional to the temperature differential between the copper and the air (obviously), AND it is also proportional to the mass of the copper used in the rad (not the surface area). (That is Newton's Law of Cooling for a body exposed to a draft, or as best as I can remember it, one of you college boys can go look it up.)

I was under the impression that you want as little mass between the air and water as possible, and as much surface area. If mass were what really counted, we'd be using solid blocks of copper as a radiators... which obviously isn't going to work.
10-13-2011, 04:15 AM
bundymania

Some pics from the new versions

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1585/img3738v.th.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2591/img3662p.th.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8780/img3666w.th.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6...g3667bb.th.jpg
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3053/img3677c.th.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5240/img3681s.th.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6262/img3729s.th.jpg
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/4830/img3731y.th.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9353/img3736n.th.jpg
10-13-2011, 06:18 AM
SNiiPE_DoGG

well whadya know, a higher air-water surface area ratio....
10-13-2011, 10:03 AM
LeandroJVarini

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundymania

Some pics from the new versions

Someone tell me what store that makes international shipping this radiator?
10-13-2011, 10:14 AM
phantomferrari

that thing is thicker than a power supply! :rofl:
10-13-2011, 10:42 AM
clubber_lang

Bundy.....do you have any of these "in hand"? If so.....I would think you will probably test the crap out them shortly. Those are great looking rads. Sure would like to see how they perform compared to all these other brands.
10-13-2011, 03:31 PM
bundymania

Yes, i´m testing the rads right now

http://www.abload.de/img/img_37552fvf.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/img_37549ew8.jpg
10-13-2011, 03:52 PM
mattlef

My God.
I want one now!
10-14-2011, 10:37 AM
clubber_lang

First impressions Bundy? Just curious to see if a rad that think has any improvements over the thinner rads? things are beautiful.....but friggin' huge!
10-14-2011, 12:01 PM
ying

Want oneeee :)
10-14-2011, 12:35 PM
bundymania

@chubber_lang: Well, it´s sadly but true, this version has no chance against rads like the htf4, AMS or even the cheap magicool 420 like it is right now. I informed Thermalfins about it and they want to try some improvement again.
10-18-2011, 01:06 PM
bundymania

So Guys, i reported the bad performance from the previous version to Thermalfins and those guys worked the whole weekend to improve the big black thing ;) Ok now, i received the package via express today and i´m testing again since several hours. What i can say is: The performance is better now, BUT still miles away from the "usual" 3x140mm rads.....

http://www.abload.de/img/img_3787k5xv.jpg
10-18-2011, 01:18 PM
m_jones_

Have you done any testing with powerful fans? (over 2000rpm)
10-18-2011, 01:34 PM
lowfat

Nice to see them try something new. However it definitely is a shame it isn't as good as normal water cooling radiators.
10-18-2011, 01:35 PM
bundymania

max. with the PK3 - 1700 RPM, Difference is still huge. Those fans are good for radiator usage

http://www.aquatuning.de/product_inf...40x25mm--.html
10-18-2011, 04:00 PM
Rinaun

I'm thinking they were already trying to improve on a already proven design (Standard radiators), so seeing it perform worse isn't exactly surprising. I think this radiator would be better suited to a passive or external application.
10-18-2011, 04:46 PM
subtec

I can't understand why they went with that square-cross-sectioned core instead of a wider, shallower core. Seems like a poor use of space, and probably hurts performance as well.

You'd think they'd have done exhaustive testing during development, before ever releasing any samples for independent review. Doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence in the company...
10-18-2011, 07:56 PM
Martinm210

Thanks for testing again!:up:
Martin
10-18-2011, 09:34 PM
Waterlogged

Improvement in performance will never come from going back to a design concept that we already know doesn't work regardless how you try to repackage it. These, in their current design state, will never perform as well as what we have. . .all you have to do is read this sticky (clicky) from MaxxxRacer to know this and why (notice that it says "basics" in the green title ;)).
09-28-2012, 05:34 AM
bundymania

Thermalfins posted this today:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community...l#post19508999
09-28-2012, 12:08 PM
defect9

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundymania

Thermalfins posted this today:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community...l#post19508999

I need a "too german; didn't read" summary please.

*My german is so bad I thought the article is about a utility closet.
09-28-2012, 12:43 PM
lowfat

Quote:

Originally Posted by defect9

I need a "too german; didn't read" summary please.

*My german is so bad I thought the article is about a utility closet.

The post translates very poorly. I gather that TFC or Thermafins sued the other, Thermalfins won. :shrug:
09-30-2012, 11:50 AM
ying

Is there any results about the performance of the future radiators?
09-30-2012, 02:25 PM
BeepBeep2

Quote:

Originally Posted by I cleaned up Google Translate

Good morning all... Today is a beautiful day!

TFC has lost the case for the patent! The Regional Court of Dusseldorf has confirmed the sentence against TFC! It is therefore legally proved that TFC is not the developer of the radiator and has not contributed to the development ... !

With this ruling, all rights of the company Lötters Metallwaren GmbH secured and the patent, which TFC had surreptitiously (fraudulently) obtained, has transferred back to Lötters.

Furthermore, the new rights, the TFC modular radiator with regard to registering patents, will be checked for technical similarities ... (Editor's note: the difference between design and patents of the two Idio... (Melanie, listed Owner, TFC) Gennat and (Mario, legal representative, co-owner, dbag) Faross is still not known ... ) (Case is not decided)

The next step will be my open invoices "discussed", the TFC has not paid by today ... Well ... this should be for the men and Gennat and Faross a very, very special experience... (<---TFC owes them a lot of money, they owe others like FrozenCPU too many thousand dollars too I believe)

Interesting collaboration between TFC and the company ADM Tec GmbH, A rogue, evil company...whose shareholders are an employee and the son of my former accountant ...) ... this firm has taken my drawings (!)

well ... it is how it is.
I wish you a nice, relaxing weekend
greetings
Tom / Thermalfins

PS: Pictures to follow ...

Here you go.

My mother is korean so I understand really bad english :)
09-30-2012, 10:35 PM
Church

LOL, funny reading, despite online translator's engrish.

As to rad themselves .. i want finally tests, tests and tests. Yes, flat tubes have more surface in contact for better heat transfer. But yes, extra turbulence of not smooth inside tubes may have been doing same thing of enhancing heat transfer. Rad made by whatever .. i want to see finally test with common rads put versus these.