Anyone know what this stuff is in my block?

I just tore down my system to put in my new koolance D5 res, and in the process of flushing my system i noticed weird black flakes coming out of it.

I have the rad sitting with hot water and white vinegar right now, and decided to take a peek into my cpu block. here's what i found:

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...015_163937.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...015_163954.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...015_164008.jpg

The only thing in my system was distilled water, silver BP fittings, and I attempted to use Mlwood's dye and never had any success... I put a lot in, so maybe that is from the day?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...35#post4029835

There should really be a sticky with this title.

Hmm, from doing some searching I guess it is copper oxide... but why would it have been in my old T3 res too? And there were flakes of it in the system.

Some kind of sludge. It's really hit or miss if you'll ever develop any kind of build up in your loop, even with distilled water or special coolants.

A general rule of thumb I follow to minimize this: Clean everything before assembly. Never leave your loop open to the atmosphere for anything but short periods of time. Minimize the amount of impurities you put in the water.

I'd just clean it and put it back together and go on enjoying it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Diverge

The only thing in my system was distilled water, silver BP fittings, and I attempted to use Mlwood's dye and never had any success... I put a lot in, so maybe that is from the day?

---

the GTZ is an impingement/injector type block, right? that's what happens to most dyes held in suspension. injectors takes the suspenders off.

the dye basically dropped it's pants in your block.

was your dye a blue-ish color?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stealth42o

There should really be a sticky with this title.

---

:up: Was about to say the same thing.

It's either the dye or you didn't clean out all the parts of your loop. It could very well be copper oxide but people are fast to say Copper oxide these days. I think it's just an everyday build up of crap since it's in your res too. I don't think copper oxide would be forming on the side of an acrylic reservoir.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by defect9

the GTZ is an impingement/injector type block, right? that's what happens to most dyes held in suspension. injectors takes the suspenders off.

the dye basically dropped it's pants in your block.

was your dye a blue-ish color?

---

It was supposed to be clear dye, that showed blue under UV light... but it never worked for me.. so I put a lot more in to try to get the blue to show, but it never did. I guess this is the result.

Right now I am trying to clean the block. I tried ketchup with an old toothbrush... but it hardly did anything. There is black crystal like crap stuck to the pins and stuff. You can see chunks of it in one of the pictures above. Right now I am soaking it in a cup of white vinegar to see if it removes anything. If not, then i'll try some coca cola i guess.

edit: update.. after 5 mins of soaking in vinegar, it is almost clean. And i see blue stuff at the bottom of the cup. I guess that is my dye. After disturbing the cup, the blue mixed in with the vinegar.. so it all looks blue now.
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...015_173313.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...015_173321.jpg

I dare you to see if your vinegar is UV reactive now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by defect9

I dare you to see if your vinegar is UV reactive now

---

Okay, I'll give it a try lol

edit: I poured the cup into a clear glass, and took another of the same glass and put water in it to the same level. put the UV light on top of the glasses, you can fainly see the blue in the vinegar glass, but it doesn't show up much on my cell phone camera

Anyone think I need to tear apart my GPU block? or is it safe to assume that the only dye build up would be in the CPU block cause it is an impingement/injector type block?

If I remove the GPU block from the card, the ram and vrm contact pads might turn to crap :/

edit: I capped one end of the GPU block, and filled it with vinegar... I'll let it sit for a few hours then rinse it with distilled.

Yep. Dye. sorry you experianced that. Time for a loop teardown, massive rinsing/claning of rad etc.

Dye. Don't care who made it. Bad things happen.

Ran it for under a month and had this happen? I'll say 10% oxidation, normal. Rest.............

Dye. Another fun link for new watercoolers. See what happens?

Well so much for Myhem's dye not separating, staining, or clogging. granted i used more then i was supposed to, cause it wasn't showing it's color at all... now I know why, it was getting stock in my block. All the blocks in my loop are black like that, and when soaked in white vinegar, the vinegar turns blue (which is the color the dye should have been). My crappy T3 had some build up on the walls of it. I had thought maybe it was growing something some how. Nope, I filled it will white vinegar, and it turned blue as well.

Maybe his dye is good, i wish him the best for his business. But I guess the facts are dye stains, clogs and separates no matter who makes it, or how scientific it is.

Here's some more images showing how the black stuff turns to blue after soaking with white vinegar.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...015_233055.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...015_233121.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...016_000205.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...016_000213.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...016_001130.jpghttp://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...016_001144.jpg

Sorry but that is not the dye and since its Clear UV blue which is not a dye in the first place it a optical brighter please get the fact's correct before blaming the wrong person. (Diverge Not aimed at you)

All so Clear UV Blue (the very first version we made was pulled and replaced with a much more superior solution).

If you would like and you can send me some of that from the block i can get it sent for analysis to find out what it is for you. All so a small sample of your liquid that was in the system will help to as we can determine if the PH range was out and other aspects. (ill pay for delivery costs and packing + analysis costs). The offer is there i have nothing to hide.

All so as stated may times do not add to much into the system as if it not showing then either its the tubing or res that is blocking the UV light. this can happen and i can prove it.

Guys before jumping on your high horses and putting a product in the firing line make sure the facts are correct.

The dyes do stain and i have never denied that but they dont clog as a dye is a dye. Its does what it says on the bottle it dyes. So the stuff in you loop will have been dyed by the liquids that contains the dye ...... (if you get my meaning) .. basic add any acid to any of my dyes and it will penetrate and dye said products.

There is a old saying less is more. The dyes of this concentrate some times dont need a lot. 1 drop of UV clear blue can be more powerful that 10 drops of UV clear blue as its all to do with over saturation and light spectrum's.

I can't really send you a sample of it, as i've cleaned most of my blocks, and fittings already. Well the last of them are soaking in white vinegar right now. The only thing left with some of that crude on it is my tubing.

When I first put your dye in, i had just redone the loop with fresh distilled. I had never used any dyes before. This is really my first water cooled pc. The computer runs 24/7. it was maybe off for a few days once or twice since it was built. The water level had gone down some. I wasn't sure if my T3 was cracked and possibly leaking, or if it was just evaporating through the hoses.

I know i put a lot more then u are supposed to use, and I wondered where it had all gone, cause it didn't show at all. I wasn't sure if it was the plastic used in the T3 that was blocking the UV light, or something else. But I dunno what that black stuff is. I had thought it was copper oxide. I read a little about it, and it is supposed to form at very high temps and with oxygen present.

When soaked in vinegar that black stuff comes right off and turns the vinegar blue. I'm still not sure what it is. The only thing I that made sense was it was the dye, cause it was UV blue.

Hmm, i just did a little more research on copper oxide. it turns into copper acetate when mixed with vinegar. copper acetate is blue in color.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/fo...p?topic=6240.0

Quote:

---

Black copper oxide CuO reacts with acetic acid CH3COOH (inside vinegar) forming copper acetate Cu(CH3COO)2 and water:

CuO + 2CH3COOH --> Cu(CH3COO)2 + H2O

A similar reaction happens with Cu(OH)2, CuCO3, Cu2CO3(OH)2 ecc.

The copper acetate is water soluble and dissolves away, leaving a clean copper metal surface.

By the way: copper acetate forms very beautiful dark emerald green cristals when dried.

---

Copper Oxide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper%28II%29_oxide
Copper Acetate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper%28II%29_acetate

I guess the mystery is solved as to what it is. Just need to figure out how now.

I fully understand you concern and i fully understand why you think its the dye that has caused this and this is normal because its a common misconception.

If you can send me say a small peace of your tubing (unless you flushed it with vinegar) then i can get that sent for testing. Its pointless if its been soaked in vinegar as this wont be precise readings. I have access to Newcastle uni and teeside uni labs were i can hand it over for proper testing and we can find out why it is happening. this would be good for every one and we can finally get real answers over this.

Ive actually been working close with both these uni's in development of some un named products that ive never talked about yet so it would be good for us to see why this has happened.

Send me you address any way and ill send over some new UV clear blue for you to have a play with. you'll see there is a difference between what we used in the past to what we now use.

Ill do this for any one who has my product and thinks it the dye and i wish i could get that reaction my self in all the test systems i have running but i have never once seen it yet. The only time i saw any fouling was with a certain block and a certain brand of pre mixed liquid and a bit of messing. We all so have seen brake down with certain brands of inhibitors when pushed though impingement plates.

Added -

Diverge - well done for checking out the problem your self :) ... wish more would.

I would be skeptical of blaming the dye just because of the blue tint to the water, especially after using a mild acid solution to clean the block. pH plays a big role in the type of copper corrosion you can expect. I would expect that your fouling is either biological or cupric oxide from having a high pH (probably greater than 8).

Maybe the "dye" made the whole solution more sensitive to static electricity which in turn started a chemical reaction that caused a small layer of copper to oxidize. Not trying to blame it on the "dye" here but something must have started the reaction as I'm almost 100% sure it's Copper oxide because it turned the acetate blue.

But as mlwood stated it could very well have been the pH level as CuO is formed at higher pH levels.

The last culprit I can think of is oxygen. No CuO without oxygen. The small amounts of oxygen in distilled water can't cause such a chemical reaction in such a small period of time. So it's either oxygen or electricity (small amounts though) that caused the chemical reaction.

My $0.02 :yepp:

I'd suggest relisting all used components in loop, maybe somehow something made of aluminium has made it to loop rising corrosion issues that way?

The only metals in the loop were/are brass, copper, silver plating, nickel plating. And I guess stainless steel from the XSPC Razer 5970 Full Cover block.

In case anyone wants to know, white vinegar will remove plating from copper. After letting some of my BP fittings sit overnight, the insides of some of the 45 elbows have turned copper. It didn't touch the silver plated brass fittings.

I've used commercial coolant in the past and I ended up with this

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4162/cimgdfdkx9.jpg

Now all I use is diluted antifreeze with dyes / I guess I'm lucky becasue Japan has some of the coolest coolers of antifreeze available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by malkiewicz

I've used commercial coolant in the past and I ended up with this

Now all I use is diluted antifreeze with dyes / I guess I'm lucky becasue Japan has some of the coolest coolers of antifreeze available.

---

That's totally different from what happened in my loop. In yours you can see the foriegn stuff on your block, and easily remove it. On my blocks, it become one with my blocks - basically plated it with black crap. Didn't come off until soaked in vinegar (chemical reaction).

Not true... It wasn't that easy to remove at all / had to scrape many areas not to mention it pitted my a few areas of my block.

TBH i think there is one vital part that ever one is missing from there water cooling loop and that is a PH tester. this can Solve a lot of issues in the long term.

You an pick up PH testers from as little as £1.00 for Ph strips (paper ones) to £14.99 for Electric ones. In line ones can be got for £16.99.

Im going to start looking into stocking them now for the shop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mlwood37

TBH i think there is one vital part that ever one is missing from there water cooling loop and that is a PH tester. this can Solve a lot of issues in the long term.

You an pick up PH testers from as little as £1.00 for Ph strips (paper ones) to £14.99 for Electric ones. In line ones can be got for £16.99.

Im going to start looking into stocking them now for the shop.

---

How about distilled water and a biocide Mlwood?

Run what is proven to work, heck with the rest.

Sorry, that means all your work is naught. I really think this idea should just go away.

Make it simple, make it work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conumdrum

How about distilled water and a biocide Mlwood?

Run what is proven to work, heck with the rest.

Sorry, that means all your work is naught. I really think this idea should just go away.

Make it simple, make it work.

---

Well with thinking like this go back to stock speeds, stock hsf and 80mm fans in a beige case.

Seriously

The guy had a werid reactions in his loop with a fairly new product.
Which mlwood has improved and looks to be trying to sort out what happened. If it was a bunch of people maybe it might be a bad product but if it was we woulda heard more.

As it is we know the optical brightener seems to be involved.

But what actually happened nobody's sure of.

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagisD

Well with thinking like this go back to stock speeds, stock hsf and 80mm fans in a beige case.

Seriously

The guy had a werid reactions in his loop with a fairly new product.
Which mlwood has improved and looks to be trying to sort out what happened. If it was a bunch of people maybe it might be a bad product but if it was we woulda heard more.

As it is we know the optical brightener seems to be involved.

But what actually happened nobody's sure of.

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk

---

Agreed MagisD. Not sure what caused it.:ROTF:

Distilled and a biocide sure doesn't.:up:

I will keep preaching that till there is a solution to the needed bling color issue. We building PC's or colored tubing setups?:confused:

Conumdrum: Why you fight so agressively against existence of other opinions/preferences? To each his own. While i'm also in distilled+biocide camp, i never thought that i should start holy war because of that against people with different wishes/opinions :P

I wouldn't worry too much churchy - there are going to be people who say never use any colored coolants - and, it's hard to argue with the logic. I think some of the experienced folks (like Conundrum) who spend a lot of time helping new folks, may get a bit tired of answering the same questions.

However, there are going to be people who want to put some color in their loop - and for those people we need folks like mlwood to keep experimenting.

I've used enough colored coolants to be comfortable doing so - but I also know it is adding extra risk and something you need to keep an eye on. I'll always recommend that someone new to liquid cooling stay away from the colored coolants ... but once you are aware of the risks - have at it. Just be careful.

shazza: i just really like & aplaud mlwood's efforts to make quality product and stand behind it. Few posts in this thread clearly shown that he is ready to go to great lengths to help find and solve problems with his products if there are such. Even if that's not my piece of bread, i don't want to see vendors that actively work with community and actively try to improve/fix their products to be bashed and at one point giving up and just leaving our hobby as something not worth to keep working for.
Yes, distilled can be most maintenance free coolant, but from what i've read about mlwood's products, they seem to be regarded by many as less problematic then many other coolant premixes sold out there. I got impression that these deyes are widely used, so imho any serious issues with them should have been noticed long time ago. From Diverge's & mlwood's posts it seems that too high concentration and usage of old/pulled product might have played a role in that copper oxidating?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conumdrum

Agreed MagisD. Not sure what caused it.:ROTF:

Distilled and a biocide sure doesn't.:up:

I will keep preaching that till there is a solution to the needed bling color issue. We building PC's or colored tubing setups?:confused:

---

i have heard of people adding too much biocide(pt nuke) and causing an acidic reaction in their loop, so i don't agree with you saying that it never happens.

according to mlwood, his uv dye doesn't gunk, doesn't stain, etc etc, because it isn't even a dye

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by penguins

i have heard of people adding too much biocide(pt nuke) and causing an acidic reaction in their loop, so i don't agree with you saying that it never happens.

according to mlwood, his uv dye doesn't gunk, doesn't stain, etc etc, because it isn't even a dye

---

UV Clear Blue - Will not gunk or stain if used normally as is not a Dye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener

Any of my other colours will stain as they are dyes. How ever they will not block a system as they are just a dye. Nothing more.

How ever they do add more to water yes and they do make maintenance of a water cooling system a little harder as you have to keep an eye on it You have to regular clean it ect ect.

I under stand there are two camps in water cooling. And i have nothing against either to me its a free world and im not here to take sides. I my self have all ways liked to create colour and be different hence why I started looking to make better ones.