Copper Oxide? Help me get rid of this.

Hi XS community,
Im a IT and cooling (especially watercooling) enthusiast, as most of the people that wrote here :)
Im from Italy, so please sorry for any writing typos and mistakes.

Since 2 years, I can't get rid of watching my watercooling system colouring green, with formation of green/blue films into the tubes and on fittings, o-rings.
This is my actual watercooling system:

Pump: Laing DDC1 Plus T
CPU: Ybris Cooling Eclipse Chrome (chromed copper and brass, delrin)
Northbridge: Ybris Cooling K5 Chipset (copper, plexy top)
VGA: Ybris Cooling K5 VGA (same as chipset)
Southbridge: EK Waterblocks NB/SB4 (copper, plexy)

Radiator 1 : Black Ice GTS 240
Radiator 2 : TFC Single radiator
Radiator 3 : Magicool Single radiator

Reservoir: XSPC Laing Top Reservoir

Tube: PVC Clear (UV reactive) 13/10mm, bought on Aquatuning.de

All the fittings are made of nickel plated brass (compression).

There is no aluminum in the system, never used it in my systems, because I didnt see reason to discover how galvanic corrosion act on my system :ROTF:

So, this is the actual situation:

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...9_IMG_3021.JPG

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...9_IMG_3022.JPG

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...3_IMG_3017.JPG

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...zatitolo-1.jpg

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...7_IMG_3026.JPG



Is this copper oxide?
To clean my waterblock I used vinegar + salt (with iodine), and then washed for 5mins under hot water and dryed immediately, then washed with deionized/demineralized water.
The blocks were shiny.
On the blocks in the last pictures I used an italian product to clean metals, called Sidol.
Its made of Amonia. Im sure it was cleaned and washed very well, under hot water for 10 mins, and then were washed again with deionized/demineralized water.

The problem could be the water? I discovered recently that water I was buying was containing a bit of parfume.
I changed it with another brand of distilled water.

Or could be cause by solvents of the XSPC reservoir?
The first time I've put some water onto reservoir and I've shaked it, the result was microscopic bubbles forming and an intense smell of solvents inside the reservoir.

By the way, I dont know how to get rid of this problem, It is causing problem to pump, that sometimes stop working because of the deposits.
Maybe the problem its how I clean my watercooling rig.
I read in a thread in this forum that mixing Vinegar + Salt can cause oxidation.

Thanks in advance for your reply, it will be precious for me.

Thats Algea or dye or something seperating in the liquid. It's not oxidation. Oxidation is black. Oxidation doesn't grow on tubing. Scroll down to see the oxidation on a CPU block in this build log, about 1/2 way. It is also a log you can use on how to rebuild your loop. You need a 100% teardown of everything, everything.
http://www.overclockers.com/annual-w...build-journal/


You don't mention the use of a biocide at all. You were using something to prevent growth I hope?
And you said two years? Did you keep the same liquid for two years?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conumdrum

Thats Algea or dye or something seperating in the liquid. It's not oxidation. Oxidation is black. Oxidation doesn't grow on tubing. Scroll down to see the oxidation on a CPU block in this build log, about 1/2 way. It is also a log you can use on how to rebuild your loop. You need a 100% teardown of everything, everything.
http://www.overclockers.com/annual-w...build-journal/


You don't mention the use of a biocide at all. You were using something to prevent growth I hope?
And you said two years? Did you keep the same liquid for two years?

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Hi Conumdrum, many thanks for your reply :)
I didnt use any biocide at all, just deionized water.
I explained it bad. I disassembly my watercooling rig very often (about 5-6 months, and in this interval I always renew the water every 3-4 weeks), this problem is lasting since 2 years, Im not keeping the liquid for two years :)

I'm thinking its Copper Oxide because of this thread -> http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...7&postcount=22 , the color its the classic blue-green. Isnt it called Copper Oxide?
Surely now I have to teardown everything to clean it deeply.

So what should I use to clean it? These deposits appeared in 3-4 weeks of use, progressively.
Working temperature of the system (aka water temperature) are always low, 25-30 degrees celsius.
Should I use vinegar + salt?

Im checking the suggested thread...thanks.

Oh, I forgot, this was my rig after renewing tubes and after cleaning radiators and waterblocks first with chloridric acid (20%) and water, then with vinegar+salt.
Finally washed with hot water at city water pressure, finally washed with deionized water to avoid minerals present in common city water (and here where I live the water is very rich of sodium, calcium).

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...3_IMG_1959.JPG

Definitely copper oxide, ketchup should get rid of it

And no biocide? 3-4 weeks is a growth for sure.

Petras PHN PT-Nuke is what a LOT of us use or some silver coils. You have to use something for sure.

With a biocide your water won't need replaced but every 6 months or so.

Please Google petra and the biocide. He lists the exact chemical he uses, maybe you can find it at a lab store etc. I think there are a few EU stores that sell it too. Being US, I don't know of any EU stores.

Ohh and some have used some good stuff from aquarium stores too. Just be careful on that.

http://www.petrastechshop.com/
BTW, nice rig.

DON"T use veigear and salt!!!!!!!!! It can eat away at brass and copper!!!! NONONO!

You do need to tear the loop apart 100%, clean the rads like I mentioned in my log. Open the pumps, run a rag through the hoses, trear apart the CPU block. With chucks like that I can inmagine the inside of your block, pump etc.

My post LONNG ago on cleaning rads etc. just another help hack I wrote.
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=312743

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taters mcgee

Definitely copper oxide, ketchup should get rid of it

---

Yep, thats what I used to clean my block. But thats not the gunk on his hose etc. His problem is green growing stuff dude.

This is algea ... for sure !

PT_nuke !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conumdrum

And no biocide? 3-4 weeks is a growth for sure.

Petras PHN PT-Nuke is what a LOT of us use or some silver coils. You have to use something for sure.

With a biocide your water won't need replaced but every 6 months or so.

Please Google petra and the biocide. He lists the exact chemical he uses, maybe you can find it at a lab store etc. I think there are a few EU stores that sell it too. Being US, I don't know of any EU stores.

Ohh and some have used some good stuff from aquarium stores too. Just be careful on that.

http://www.petrastechshop.com/
BTW, nice rig.

DON"T use veigear and salt!!!!!!!!! It can eat away at brass and copper!!!! NONONO!

You do need to tear the loop apart 100%, clean the rads like I mentioned in my log. Open the pumps, run a rag through the hoses, trear apart the CPU block. With chucks like that I can inmagine the inside of your block, pump etc.

My post LONNG ago on cleaning rads etc. just another help hack I wrote.
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=312743

---

Thanks for "nice rig" ;)
You are very kind answering here btw :)

Yeah, I watched many post here in XS forums, and I saw many people using silver coils.
I was thinking to aquarium stores too, I'll check.
I'll check petra and biocide too.

No vinegar and salt, okay. Btw for short time it shouldnt damage anything.

To keep away any doubt, I prepared 3 glasses with vinegar only, vinegar + salt, Sidol (amonia based).
I put 2 eurocent coins in every glass, leaving them inside for various hours... I will check later.
Now I can see (after abour 2 hours) the glass with Sidol (amonia) its turning greenish... make me thinking it has to do something with the colouring of my system.

I can say, the reservoir/top it s transparent, there is no gunk inside it, maybe there's some green powder deposits.
Other waterblocks are almost clean, as I can see through the top, 'cause its made of plexyglass.

The only one that shows some oxidation its the northbridge block, it has a black areas, probably copper oxide.
The greenish color after the fittings shoulds depends by the water pressure, that should be higher at the exit of the waterblock.
CPU waterblock its chromed, so its should be ok, no oxide.
Maybe If open them and take a pic of it we can understand better if its algae or something else.

Btw your posts are very interesting :)

As I know, ketchup cleans copper because of vinegar present... so it should be the same thing using pure vinegar, right? (every country has its natural copper cleaner :D)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boulard83

This is algea ... for sure !

PT_nuke !

---

hi Boulard, thanks for reply!
Its a bit hard for me to order the PT_nuke from Italy :(
I think I should pay very much for shipment for a 2$ bottle :shocked:

Btw here in Italy we have a very common sanitizer e biocide: Amuchina, do you know?
Its a sodium hypochlorite based disinfectant.
Recommended usage its 2-3% in the liquid to disinfect.

Can't say on your choice of boicide. .999 silver wire might be found from a jewler. The vinegar in ketchup is a very low percent. It helps because it sticks to the copper and the gentle toothbrush action finishes it. High levels of venegar and salt increases the action. Glad you only left it for a short time in your rad. Seen folks do it so long the water came out blue colored. Bad sign..

Follow my rad cleaning process, using the glass bowl. Shake like crazy. Any chuncks of goop? Of no, great if yes do it again and again and again. And let us know what the inside of the block looks like, pics would be great.

We solved your problem, now we are adding to our knowledge with you as the experiment.

Simply visit any pet shop and ask for antialgae biocide for aquariums. imho should do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conumdrum

Yep, thats what I used to clean my block. But thats not the gunk on his hose etc. His problem is green growing stuff dude.

---

Thought he was running antifreeze or something, and that was the reason he had green tubing :doh: also thought that the stuff on the fittings was copper oxide, because it looks crystalline

Are you sure it is copper oxide? The crystalline structure indicates it's some kind of salt (atleast to me) but the color is wrong. Cu2O is red and CuO is black. The only copper based material I know with a blue color is CuSO4 or maybe CuS. Anyway, I've had the same thing with my first build, but not this bad, on the fittings but it never really caused a problem. Curious!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taters mcgee

Thought he was running antifreeze or something, and that was the reason he had green tubing :doh: also thought that the stuff on the fittings was copper oxide, because it looks crystalline

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No antifreeze or something like this, just pure deionized water.
EXACTLY, I didnt find the right word to describe it.
This deposits are crystalline, because they cracks when I scratch them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TJ Tom

Are you sure it is copper oxide? The crystalline structure indicates it's some kind of salt (atleast to me) but the color is wrong. Cu2O is red and CuO is black. The only copper based material I know with a blue color is CuSO4 or maybe CuS. Anyway, I've had the same thing with my first build, but not this bad, on the fittings but it never really caused a problem. Curious!

---

Of course Im not sure, im not a chemistry expert, but I've seen algae growing, and it hasnt this color and its not crystalline and make water very opaque and dirty.
My water is absolutely clean, but there are these deposits on tubes, fittings, around the o-rings, and a random deposits of some micron in the reservoir.

Yes, copper oxide should be black or red, as I've read in many place on the net.
I called it Copper Oxide because im not an expert, surely there is another term to identify correctly this material.

Its really curious man, for sure :)
It was not all this problem if it was a light deposit.
But it makes my pump stop to work, color my tubes green and makes them opaque.

I think the reason could be:

- The solvents used to glue the XSPC reservoir;
- Previous deionized water brand (it was parfumed, so I would not surprised if the water was not so DEIONIZED);
- Traces of amonia, because of polishing a waterblock with Sidol (amonia based);
- Traces of Hydrochloric acid (Muriatic Acid);
- Traces of vinegar+salt.

I washed everything connected to high pressure water of my house, very hot water, for 15 minutes, then again cleaned with muriatic acid, washed, vinegar (vinegar + salt for waterblocks), washed again with hot water, and finally washed with deionized water.
For your information, in my region city water is rich of sodium and calcium, could this elements interacted with copper + acids, making some ion exchange?

By the way, many thanks for the interest and replying to this thread.
Hoping my english its not so bad :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conumdrum

Can't say on your choice of boicide. .999 silver wire might be found from a jewler. The vinegar in ketchup is a very low percent. It helps because it sticks to the copper and the gentle toothbrush action finishes it. High levels of venegar and salt increases the action. Glad you only left it for a short time in your rad. Seen folks do it so long the water came out blue colored. Bad sign..

Follow my rad cleaning process, using the glass bowl. Shake like crazy. Any chuncks of goop? Of no, great if yes do it again and again and again. And let us know what the inside of the block looks like, pics would be great.

We solved your problem, now we are adding to our knowledge with you as the experiment.

---

I have some results about my experiment.
The coins left in vinegar and in vinegar + salt are perfect, no blue vinegar or any corrosion present.
The glass with Sidol (amonia),instead turned green (the Sidol itself became green), but the coin is still intact and perfect.
I'll try to leave them to the open air without rinsing.
Hoping copper oxide (or whatever is called) appears.

In few days I will receive new reservoir and Laing top, because im updating watercooling rig :)
And I will mount my new fullcover (you can see it in my avatar) on my 4870x2, so I have to clean everything for sure, and for sure I will follow your guides / suggestion.

I will try ketchup, Im curious about it. And I will buy some biocide at pet/aquarium shops.

Guys, i think its definitely copper oxide, or copper sulfate, i dont know the exact nomenclature.
Its crystallized, when I scratch it with a tool, its like "salt" or "fine sand".
If it was algae it should be slimy, I think.
Also, when I put a light and turn around the green powder shines, like crystals.
Now I have to understand what produced this sulfate/oxide.

Some pics

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...2_IMG_3034.jpg

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...9_IMG_3037.jpg

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...6_IMG_3038.jpg

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...3_IMG_3041.jpg



And I bought a PH test.

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...0_IMG_3045.JPG

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...mage_00163.jpg

PH test results:

PLEASE NOTE: I changed the water recently (about a week ago)...

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...1_IMG_0322.JPG

That looks like a mix of things.
On one hand it looks like your getting a buildup that can easily be due to improper radiator cleaning.
I do think you have an issue with oxidation or some sort of metal reaction but I don't think its the copper.
I think your nickel plating may be suspect here.

It may just be buildup from the radiator that algae has clung to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MoMo_RT

That looks like a mix of things.
On one hand it looks like your getting a buildup that can easily be due to improper radiator cleaning.
I do think you have an issue with oxidation or some sort of metal reaction but I don't think its the copper.
I think your nickel plating may be suspect here.

It may just be buildup from the radiator that algae has clung to.

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Hi Momo, thanks for your interest and reply :)
What do you mean with improper? Maybe with with impromper cleaner?
I tried some ways to clean it: hydrochloridric acid (20%) and 80% water (city water), after that was washed for 15 mins internally connected to city pressure water.
I tried vinegar... and other typical cleaning products we use in Italy, that never cause problem to other users (they have almost an acid base composition).

For sure there is a metal reaction.
That waterblock in the pictures (the one chromed) was added recently, I have this problem since long time.
Many italian users own a Ybris Cooling waterblock like this, and they havent any problem of this kind.
Ybris Cooling its very serious, no bad products, you can trust me.
The problem lasts since very long time, Momo. Before compression fittings I had standard fittings, and things were the same.
Im very mixed by the way.

If it can help, this is my house water PH test (I live in Sicily, and the water here its rich of calcium and sodium).

It looks pretty alkaline.

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...3_IMG_3047.jpg

If you're using tap water its probably safe to assume its a reaction to materials in the water clinging to your blocks.
Try using bottled distilled water and see if the problem persists.

It seriously looks like your water is probably too hard and you are getting a calcium buildup. The green can come from a number of different things. Be it copper oxidation that's clinging to the calcium, algae that's clinging, or any number of possibilities of metals that may be in your water. I really think you should give distilled water a try. You will probably find that the tap water is the culprit here.

He said distilled so it is not that.

I am surprised this would happen. It might be the water you are using contains a lot of oxygen. I don't know how you could deal with that, either try a different brand or put a filter in your loop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MoMo_RT

If you're using tap water its probably safe to assume its a reaction to materials in the water clinging to your blocks.
Try using bottled distilled water and see if the problem persists.

It seriously looks like your water is probably too hard and you are getting a calcium buildup. The green can come from a number of different things. Be it copper oxidation that's clinging to the calcium, algae that's clinging, or any number of possibilities of metals that may be in your water. I really think you should give distilled water a try. You will probably find that the tap water is the culprit here.

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Ehm... never used tap water :D
I use tap water only to do the first, hot wash. The final wash its done with deionized water.

Can one use both PT nuke + silvercoil at same time ?

Even though Copper oxide is red or black depending on the ON I do find pictures of "copper oxide" that have a color very much like the color your mysterious buildup has.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hhaTg03kiU...old+copper.jpg
http://www.shsu.edu/~chemistry/chm118/cuoxide.jpg
http://www.safossils.com/copper1001.jpg

I think it's safe to say it's copper oxide, given the large amount of copper the liquid touches :)
Anyway, def not algae.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blueking

Can one use both PT nuke + silvercoil at same time ?

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Many if not most, do. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damha

He said distilled so it is not that.

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No, he didn't, he says he's using de-ionized water. They're NOT the same thing; distilled is more suitable than de-ionized because it's cleaner. Looking at the photos I'd say it's the stuff in the water reacting to the copper and separating/building up. Flush the system with hot distilled water, then refill with distilled + silver/PT Nuke -PHN.

UPDATE

These fittings was places on the Magicool Single Radiator and, for your information, its the one on the right, connected between the CPU waterblock and VGA waterblock

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...3_IMG_1959.JPG

Here you are those fittings coming from Magicool Radiator. As you can see they are maroon. There are some small areas that's reddish/pinky.
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...6_IMG_3050.jpg

Those are from southbridge block, nickel plating is perfect. (maybe the camera falsed how should look)
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...9_IMG_3051.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain H.N.

No, he didn't, he says he's using de-ionized water. They're NOT the same thing; distilled is more suitable than de-ionized because it's cleaner. Looking at the photos I'd say it's the stuff in the water reacting to the copper and separating/building up. Flush the system with hot distilled water, then refill with distilled + silver/PT Nuke -PHN.

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Exactly, I said de-ionized water because I know the difference between de-ionized and distilled.
Distilled water it's better than de-ionized...as you said :)

I think there is something reacting with copper for sure, and its seems to be the material on these two fittings.
Or maybe the radiator?
The fittings are all from same brand, Aquatuning, and they write they are all brass, nickel plated fittings.

What should I check in the radiator to see if is there something wrong?

I've been self studying chemicals and elements for a few years now just by researching mostly on Wikipedia and some other sites.

And I have to say, that is not Copper Oxide. Copper(II) Oxide is black when it occurs naturally through chemical reactions and the red Copper(I) Oxide is really only man made, as it will usually degrade back to Copper(II) Oxide in moist air. But it is still possible to produce the red/pinkish Copper(I) Oxide in some cases. And those pictures TJ Tom showed are not Copper Oxide, either. It's impossible for Copper Oxide to appear blue.

It's called Copper Hydroxide. It's a pale blue gelatinous solid that has a molecular formula of Cu(OH)2 (Copper + Hydroxide, which is a diatomic ion)).

Here, read some of these quotes from Wikipedia.

Quote:

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Copper(II) hydroxide reacts with a solution of ammonia to form a deep blue solution consisting of the [Cu(NH3)4]2+ complex ion, but the hydroxide is reformed when the solution is diluted with water. Copper(II) hydroxide in ammonia solution, known as Schweizer's reagent, possesses the interesting ability to dissolve cellulose. This property led to it being used in the production of rayon, a cellulose fiber.

Since copper(II) hydroxide is mildly amphoteric, it dissolves slightly in concentrated alkali, forming [Cu(OH)4]2-.[9]

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That might help you understand a bit more.

But I really have no idea how to prevent it. I've never heard of this happening before.

I could take a guess, and that is, the liquid you are using somehow is forming a reaction with the metals, specifically copper.


Edit: This guy on here
http://www.techsupportforum.com/hard...ms-sitrep.html

Apparently had the same problem, and he used "anti-corrosion liquid & de-ionised water".


Edit2: I think your problem is caused by Galvanic corrosion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark-Energy

..cut..

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Hello Dark-Energy, thanks for your post, its very very useful.
EDIT:
You said that copper hydroxide its gelatinous and blue.
So its not Copper Hydroxide, because its not gelatinous and its greenish, and its thin, a micron layer.

What do you think about the pictures of maroon fittings @ post #28?

They are brass fittings.
Other fittings are still perfect, nickel plate has not been attacked.

Can rests of an alkali liquid cause this oxidation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark-Energy

Apparently had the same problem, and he used "anti-corrosion liquid & de-ionised water".


Edit2: I think your problem is caused by Galvanic corrosion.

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The reserator XT has the famous material coupling that cause galvanic corrosion for excellence: Aluminum + Copper.
You can use distilled water and inibitor, have the aluminum anodized, but soon or later the corrosion will happen.

I ABSOLUTELY HAVE NOT MIXED ALU WITH COPPER.
Im on watercooling since 2003, im not a noob at watercooling.

I always used copper + brass / nickel plated brass + plexy in my systems.
No steel, iron, aluminum.

So you said its galvanic corrosion. OK.
Caused by what?

Brass and copper doesnt react.
Plexy its not a metal...
Nickel doesnt react too with copper, right?

anything that has oxidation on it, be it copper or aluminum, soak your blocks/fittings, etc in 5% distilled white vinegar (sold at any grocery store) for about 6-12 hours, then take a toothbrush (I prefer a soft metal bristle brush) and scrub them down while submerged in vinegar. This should remove most if not all of surface oxidation that often happens with copper and aluminum. After the vinegar, give all the parts a bath in 70-90% isopropyl rubbing alcohol, and you'll be good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sneaky

anything that has oxidation on it, be it copper or aluminum, soak your blocks/fittings, etc in 5% distilled white vinegar (sold at any grocery store) for about 6-12 hours, then take a toothbrush (I prefer a soft metal bristle brush) and scrub them down while submerged in vinegar. This should remove most if not all of surface oxidation that often happens with copper and aluminum. After the vinegar, give all the parts a bath in 70-90% isopropyl rubbing alcohol, and you'll be good.

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Hello Sneaky :)
I have distilled white vinegar, i bought it some days ago in prevision to clean my watercooling rig, next week.

Im starting to think that the oxidation its caused by the brass of some fittings, that had a poor nickel plating layer.
Brass its a alloy of copper + zinc. If the layer of nickel came off, the copper its exposed to oxidation-corrosion.

From here -> http://www.ehow.com/about_4614401_brass-oxidation.html

"Oxidation of brass occurs when the copper molecules come into contact with the oxygen. The chemical reaction that occurs results in a dull tarnish that range from greenish-yellow to coppery red, depending on the proportion of copper to zinc in the brass."

Infact, if I look inside the brown fitting, I can say the chromed fittings become coppery red, instead of the classic chromed color or yellow shine brass.

In my years of watercooling, I've used a good number of brass fittings, as well as nickel plated brass fittings, and I've never had any severe oxidation/corrosion problems when mixed with a copper loop.

I mean, look at radiators - most radiator cores are made of brass with copper fins attached to them, and people rarely have problems with oxidation/corrosion inside the radiator.

After cleaning off the oxidation that you have experienced, what you really need to concentrate on is using the correct liquid for your WC system - a lot of the pre-mixed watercooling-specific liquids are made to look pretty, and they advertise this and that about preventing growth and corrosion, but more often than not, this tends to be a load of crap from the manufacturer.

I've been watercooling since 2003, and have never used anything outside of 90% distilled water, 10% antifreeze, and a few drops of UV dye. This will prevent any growth within the system, and antifreeze is a great anti-corrosive agent that will protect any system with mixed metals (even if its only copper/brass in the same loop). Antifreeze is used in cars with steel and aluminum engine blocks and copper radiators, and you'll rarely see oxidation or corrosion in an automobile cooling system, and the same concept goes for PC watercooling... but instead of 50/50 water/antifreeze mix in cars, only a 90/10 or even 95/5 water/antifreeze mixture is required for PC water cooling systems

How does UV dye and antifreeze act as an anti-microbial? Neither one can... and tbh you don't need antifreeze or anything like it in a loop unless you're mixing alu and cu.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMash

What should I check in the radiator to see if is there something wrong?

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There's nothing with the radiator that would have anything to do with this problem, but you should flush it with some vinegar as suggested. What I don't get is why you know distilled is better yet you don't use it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain H.N.

How does UV dye and antifreeze act as an anti-microbial? Neither one can... and tbh you don't need antifreeze or anything like it in a loop.

There's nothing with the radiator that would have anything to do with this problem, but you should flush it with some vinegar as suggested. What I don't get is why you know distilled is better yet you don't use it...

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I will not use any antifreeze liquid of car radiators, it is slimey, and I've seen many pumps damaged by this liquid.

Btw I always used supermarket deionized water 'cos in the past I never had problem of this kind... I can say the first three years.
And I changed my watercooling rig completely in these years, of course.

The problems started when I decided to polish some waterblocks with Sidol, an amonia based product.
It seems even if I wash them very well, some ingredients in Sidol doesnt go away.

This time I bought BIDISTILLED water from Ybris Cooling store.
Its a bit pricey (4.50€ / liter), but I think it will works very well.

I tried to clean a waterblock that was oxided (brown-black) with ketchup.
The dark goes away, but now copper its opaque and its pinky-reddish, and I think its not the right look for the copper.
It should be soft pink, and it should shine.
The same thing would happen If i was using vinegar + salt, I think.

I dont want to use again that Sidol "amonia based" product to make it shine.
What can I use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMash

I tried to clean a waterblock that was oxided (brown-black) with ketchup.
The dark goes away, but now copper its opaque and its pinky-reddish, and I think its not the right look for the copper.
It should be soft pink, and it should shine.
The same thing would happen If i was using vinegar + salt, I think.

I dont want to use again that Sidol "amonia based" product to make it shine.
What can I use?

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At this point you shouldn't try anything else. Oxidation strips copper from the base (it has to come from somewhere for the reaction to occur), and you can't get that shine back. Any more attempts will only be detrimental; if you really want the shine back, replace the whole block.

In the future, use 1:2 diluted hydrochloric acid to clean oxide off. It will NOT eat at copper metal, but it will eat away that brown/black crap left behind.

Even if your copper has that brown/reddish tint to it, it WILL NOT impact performance, it is simply aesthetic. The only real way to remove that tint would be to use a metal polish meant for copper, but I wouldn't suggest that, as most metal polishes leave a nasty film on the surface

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sneaky

Even if your copper has that brown/reddish tint to it, it WILL NOT impact performance, it is simply aesthetic. The only real way to remove that tint would be to use a metal polish meant for copper, but I wouldn't suggest that, as most metal polishes leave a nasty film on the surface

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Yeah I know :( :rolleyes:
So i will leave them like this. Pity, shining copper has another look! :rolleyes:

I will clean everything with vinegar as soon as I will get the new reservoir and the pump top from Alphacool.

Oh, and I discovered an interesting thing with the ph test stuff :asd:

This is my previous "deionized" water. I found it hidden somewhere for some reason. Maybe some time ago i started to think this water was :banana::banana::banana::banana:.
As you can read, even if its in italian, they call it "Distilled" and below "DEIONIZED".
Now I can understand why my watercooling system its full of gunk and copper oxide everywhere.
This :banana::banana::banana::banana:in' "deionized-distilled" water has a pretty acid PH, going out of scale in the PH table.

First time I checked the PH, and it was a bit more greenish, about 6,5 I can say.
After that, I shaked the tank with that water for a while, and the results are the following:

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...6_IMG_3057.jpg

Ewww... yeah, water tends to go stale after a while even in the best of conditions. Every time I re-fill my loop, I do it using a new gallon of Distilled water that I purchased the same day.

I cleaned one of the two "brown" fittings. It isnt brown now, but its dark grey/black, like zinc I think, or maybe the classic Copper Oxide.
You should see a pinky stain, in typical color of copper, I think it will not hurt,will it?

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...5_IMG_3059.jpg




I used some abrasive paper on the dark grey (or black, depends on how you consider it), the result is the nickel plating come again out.
So the brown, and then grey, layer was oxide of something else, its not oxide of the fitting itself I think.
Maybe its copper oxide?

http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...0_IMG_3062.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMash

Hi XS community,
[...]
The problem could be the water? I discovered recently that water I was buying was containing a bit of parfume.
I changed it with another brand of distilled water.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain H.N.

No, he didn't, he says he's using de-ionized water. They're NOT the same thing; distilled is more suitable than de-ionized because it's cleaner. Looking at the photos I'd say it's the stuff in the water reacting to the copper and separating/building up. Flush the system with hot distilled water, then refill with distilled + silver/PT Nuke -PHN.

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Did he now. Check above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMash

Exactly, I said de-ionized water because I know the difference between de-ionized and distilled.
Distilled water it's better than de-ionized...as you said :)

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Either the forum is playing games or your memory is not very good :)

I am glad you figured it out either way, have a nice day :)

IMHO, far too many caustic substances have been used in your cleaning process with some possibly sub standard rinsing on the rad. Rads are the hardest part to be 100% certain about your rinse job, just too damn hard to get all the stuff out due to the way they're constructed. Try cleaning the parts without any vinegar or any other acids and see if the problem returns, my guess is it won't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damha

Did he now. Check above.



Either the forum is playing games or your memory is not very good :)

I am glad you figured it out either way, have a nice day :)

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It was my mistake, I thought deionized and I wrote distilled.
Sorry guys!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

IMHO, far too many caustic substances have been used in your cleaning process with some possibly sub standard rinsing on the rad. Rads are the hardest part to be 100% certain about your rinse job, just too damn hard to get all the stuff out due to the way they're constructed. Try cleaning the parts without any vinegar or any other acids and see if the problem returns, my guess is it won't.

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Hi Waterlogged, thanks for your reply and interest for the problem. :)
I agree with you, radiators are hard to clean and rinse at 100%, 'cos of the internal structure.
Actually its hard for me to find an alternative to acids, vinegar and so on.
If im not wrong, copper its cleanable only with acids or alkaline liquids.
What should I try?

I think hot deionized-distilled will be ok, but no so efficient in removing oxide.
Using other kind of chemicals products may cause other collateral effects, I dont know.

May I have to dilute vinegar, acids in more water, so they will not be too aggressive on copper.
Btw, I think the main problem was cause by some rests of Sidol, alkali metal polish.
The water used for about 4-5 months initially, when I rebuilt my watercooling rig on October 2009, its a bit too acid, and I guess it's not so deionized as the label "say".

This time I will not use the Sidol, more diluted vinegar or hydrocloridric acid.

And guess what, I bought 1 liter of BIDISTILLED WATER.
Never tought I would need it ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMash

This is my previous "deionized" water. I found it hidden somewhere for some reason. Maybe some time ago i started to think this water was :banana::banana::banana::banana:.
As you can read, even if its in italian, they call it "Distilled" and below "DEIONIZED".
Now I can understand why my watercooling system its full of gunk and copper oxide everywhere.
This :banana::banana::banana::banana:in' "deionized-distilled" water has a pretty acid PH, going out of scale in the PH table.

First time I checked the PH, and it was a bit more greenish, about 6,5 I can say.
After that, I shaked the tank with that water for a while, and the results are the following:

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Going back to the test you did on your deionized water. Its going to be a bit more acidic due to carbonic acid. Deionized water pulls ions out of the CO2 in the air and the result is H2CO3 (a mild acid)

It will react to pure metals like copper and even the brass depending on the levels of copper in it.

If you insist on using deionized water I suggest you refresh your loop often with fresh water from a new bottle.

I don't think I've seen anyone talk about the presence of carbonic acid in deionized water that's exposed to air long enough. Keep in mind its a weak acid but an acid none the less.

Could be that there are some metals inside radiator, when u think at it if fitting that are in direct contact to another metal will run higher risk of galvanic corrosion when mix metals. Maybe check what metals are on radiator ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMash

Hi Waterlogged, thanks for your reply and interest for the problem. :)
I agree with you, radiators are hard to clean and rinse at 100%, 'cos of the internal structure.
Actually its hard for me to find an alternative to acids, vinegar and so on.
If im not wrong, copper its cleanable only with acids or alkaline liquids.
What should I try?

I think hot deionized-distilled will be ok, but no so efficient in removing oxide.
Using other kind of chemicals products may cause other collateral effects, I dont know.

May I have to dilute vinegar, acids in more water, so they will not be too aggressive on copper.
Btw, I think the main problem was cause by some rests of Sidol, alkali metal polish.
The water used for about 4-5 months initially, when I rebuilt my watercooling rig on October 2009, its a bit too acid, and I guess it's not so deionized as the label "say".

This time I will not use the Sidol, more diluted vinegar or hydrocloridric acid.

And guess what, I bought 1 liter of BIDISTILLED WATER.
Never tought I would need it ever.

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The reason for washing with vinegar was back in the pre RoHS days, the flux that they would use to help solder the rads would stay inside the rad and contaminate the water. Since all new rads must now be RoHS compliant, they use a water based flux that washes out with simple hot water. Continually using some form of acid to clean your rad is just further etching it and making it thinner and thinner. It was clean with the first washing, stop using caustics to clean it and your problem will go away. This is similar to an old, somewhat common problem we saw from pre RoHS Thermochill PA users that would always dump out rinse water with a blue tinge to it because they allowed the vinegar to sit in the rad for too long, this would cause them to think the rad still wasn't clean so they dumped in more vinegar and got into a repetitive cleaning loop that never allowed them to get clean water to come out of the rad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blueking

Could be that there are some metals inside radiator, when u think at it if fitting that are in direct contact to another metal will run higher risk of galvanic corrosion when mix metals. Maybe check what metals are on radiator ?

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This isn't galvanic corrosion, it's acid erosion.

My Apogee GTX got the same green build up over time inside the waterblock. Only copper was used in the loop. Like you, I was using just distilled water. My tubing did not turn green, and the water was clear. Soaked the thing in CLR to clean it off.

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Originally Posted by Avid6eek

My Apogee GTX got the same green build up over time inside the waterblock. Only copper was used in the loop. Like you, I was using just distilled water. My tubing did not turn green, and the water was clear. Soaked the thing in CLR to clean it off.

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Hi :)
Well Im not alone :):ROTF:
Btw, I used deionized water, not distilled. And it was not so deionized I think.

Sorry for ignorance, im italian, but what is CLR?

Its a cleaner for removing calcium lime and rust ..

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg

TheMash, Do not use CLR, it's just more of the same acid based cleaning solution that you've been using.

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

TheMash, Do not use CLR, it's just more of the same acid based cleaning solution that you've been using.

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Okay, no problem.
I wouldnt find it in Italy however :D :ROTF:
Anyway, thank for suggestions. Very very useful. You're very kind.

I started to clean everything today, with hot tap water only and then many wash with deionized water (another brand of course).
Maybe is it the time to open a thread for a worklog? :rolleyes: :)