"Personalized" Radiator Testing on the Torture Rack

I'm struggling with how best to setup my current build in the Black Pearl, so decided to do a bit of testing first to decide which radiators and fans I want to use. I've used "personalized" in my title, because I'm not trying to do a universal test to the precision and detail of our pro testers - just wanting to answer some basic questions for my own use. Thought I'd share as others may find some of the info helpful, and also, I know I'll get some good suggestions.


Here's the basic test setup on the Rack:

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...10_w4miV-M.jpg



Hardware:

EVGA X58 Micro-ATX mobo
C0 i7 920
Corsair Dominator 1600MHz
Falcon 128GB SSD - running Windows 7 64-bit
No-Name 7600GS
Ultra X3 1000W PSU


Water Cooling
EK Supreme Lt, Plexi Top
MCP 355 w/ XSPC Res Top
BP compression fittings
Primochill PRO-LRT Red tubing


Test #1: Swiftech MCR 320 + Gentle Typhoons @ 1450 RPM


I'm still working out my "testing protocol" :p:. I plan to test with the CPU at stock and at least one OC, maybe two.


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...smd/faah_2.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...smd/hfcc_2.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...md/hcmd2_2.jpg
My stressing procedure will be based on crunching for the XS WCG team. CPU loads typically stay above 99%, and this way I'll also be doing something productive while testing. Using 64-bit Boinc Manager.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...smd/flu1_1.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...smd/hcc1_2.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...smd/faah_2.jpg


My room setup is not ideal - a garage with it's own A/C but still not super stable. I'll be measuring air in to the radiator and the water temperature in my loop. Currently measuring air into the radiator with a temp probe connected to the Scythe Kaze Master. Measuring my water temp using the port on top of the XSPC res, unless anyone can give me a better idea. I have a Crystalfontz 635 with scab on order so I can record temps and measure at more locations as need be.

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...55_YBWRz-M.jpg



Using Real Temp to log my CPU core data. Just some quick results from today's efforts:

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...40_AgsuU-L.jpg
(Oops - I see I need a bigger pic - temps hovering around 60 degrees C, running at 4 GHz and 1.35 Vcore).

EDIT - larger screeshots uploaded

I'm also pleased that the Vreg temps on the Micro X58 board do not seem to run as hot as the regular EVGA X58 board I have in my main rig:

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...47_ror2A-L.png



I'll post a bit more info on my temps and delta, but gotta take a quick break to jump in the pool.


And, cause we all love pics, here are a few more of the setup as is:


http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...03_nMzDD-M.jpg




http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...46_2rvK9-M.jpg




http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...58_X8h3o-M.jpg




http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...15_8ifPe-M.jpg

You do take better pics than I do. :D

:toast: shazza

Slacker, jumping in the pool right the middle of the thread. :p:

Nice to see you are working on some tests of your own. Look forward to seeing more results if you can drag yourself from the pool :D

shazza, you have a great rack :rofl:

come on, someone had to say it!


oh crap, she's an admin now, she could ban me for that :eek::eek::eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rise

shazza, you have a great rack :rofl:

come on, someone had to say it!


oh crap, she's an admin now, she could ban me for that :eek::eek::eek:

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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Shazza's ban hammer :hammer: :D

A deadly first step :eek:

....if you thought you were addicted before, you haven't done testing :lol:

Great to see this :toast:

Hay, you said in your " Tagan black Pearl work log" that your Torture Rack, as a test rack was not to be "pretty".

Well, I kinda think it,s pretty sweet myself.

Did you build the perspex case your self or buy it?

Damm! There's yet another work log to add to the list of "Not yet read"

My eye's are going square and strange word are comming out of my mouth during conversations lately.
I think I have found an inner geek in my subconscious thats slowly taking me over.

hehe ... thanks, guys. I've resisted the testing virus, but now that I have more time there are some things I'd like to do in a more organized fashion. Some of you have seen my collection of radiators:


http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...16_FhYos-M.jpg


And, I have a few more not shown in the pic. I seem to buy radiators like most women buy shoes :cat:


I'll fix the screenshot pics and post a bit more temperature data tomorrow, , 'cause right now I've got a date with Tiger Woods. And, I forgot to mention my ambient was around 26-27 degrees C.


(The shots were taken with the Canon 5D Mark II, most at 3200 ISO). Future updates will focus more on data and less on photos, but it's fun to take pics of the baby Classified. And yes, I said it wasn't to be "pretty," but I start twitching every time I look at those unsleeved pump and fan wires...

Edited first post to put larger screenshots in. Doing more testing today ... of course, my husband decides to open all the garage doors cause it's such a nice day outside. Ambient temps have dropped 4 degrees C ... which is fine, but they will fluctuate as the desert warms up ... arggghhhh...


Current Temps:

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...94_xxVdX-L.jpg


I'm operating at a 5 degree delta (air in - water temp). This is about right, using the data from skinnee's charts on radiator testing for my GT fans running at 1450 RPM (still need to verify actual fan RPMS).

This testing stuff is too hard :p:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

I'm operating at a 5 degree delta (air in - water temp). This is about right, using the data from skinnee's charts on radiator testing for my GT fans running at 1450 RPM (still need to verify actual fan RPMS).

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Nice... will be good to see variance from the radiato heat load charts once you get the RPM reading.

Nice clean looking test setup, good pictures! The red and black color theme is awesome. :D
I also have a Swiftech MCR320 radiator... For trying to get 4.2ghz+ its pushing it IMO... :( Good sized radiator though, fits in a lot of cases!
You are getting pretty nice temps... Are you planning on lapping the CPU/waterblock?

Nice work Shazza! Good to see your putting your rack to good use (insert deviant smile here)!

Shazza my avatar is speaking to you. :rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skinnee

Nice... will be good to see variance from the radiato heat load charts once you get the RPM reading.

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Thanks, skinnee - the CrystalFontz is to arrive tomorrow, so should be able to get some more readings. I may need some help with the temp probes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Linuxfan

Nice clean looking test setup, good pictures! The red and black color theme is awesome. :D
I also have a Swiftech MCR320 radiator... For trying to get 4.2ghz+ its pushing it IMO... :( Good sized radiator though, fits in a lot of cases!
You are getting pretty nice temps... Are you planning on lapping the CPU/waterblock?

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Thanks! I probably won't be lapping anything at this time. Just planning to compare radiators and fans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sadasius

Nice work Shazza! Good to see your putting your rack to good use (insert deviant smile here)!

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That's never been a problem ................................................ the DD TORTURE Rack is very effective ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

Shazza my avatar is speaking to you. :rofl:

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More rads ... I got more rads than any one person can use in a lifetime!




LOL ... while I was tearing apart my Black Pearl Case, the TR build was crunching away. Glancing at the temps, I couldn't figure out why my water temp was creeping up ... as much as two to three degrees. Even I could figure out what was happening when I took a closer look:

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...30_HDp7M-M.jpg

:rofl::rofl::ROTF::ROTF:

Way to go mom :clap::cool:

Question for you experts out there. I received my Crystalfontz 635, SCAB, and cables today. I found this link for preparing the temperature probes for use in water. Anyone have any other suggestions or links? Also, for my modest testing purposes, am I okay measuring the water in the res, or would I be better off putting the temp probe somewhere else?

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

Question for you experts out there. I received my Crystalfontz 635, SCAB, and cables today. I found this link for preparing the temperature probes for use in water. Anyone have any other suggestions or links? Also, for my modest testing purposes, am I okay measuring the water in the res, or would I be better off putting the temp probe somewhere else?

Thanks!

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Your linked method is by far the best method I have seen yet.

The guide you linked is by far the best guide out there, same guy had a build log for a multi-socket system in the LC worklogs section. I didn't use his exact methods, the guide wasn't around when I made my first set... but this next set will use some of his ideas. This next batch that I make will have two sensors per G1/4 plug, you can have 32, why not use them.

Thanks guys. Sounds like this may be the current "best way" to do it (although not the easiest, I'd guess). I'm gonna put the man of the house on it ... this is something that's right up his alley! I do agree the idea to put two in isn't a bad one all.

What I do is a little different than that, but that guide is great...I use Bitspower 1/4" fatboy fittings (yeah, 1/4" fatboy, go figure, lol) and JB-Weld. I put two probes in per fitting (they don't both fit in the ID of the fitting, but the fitting holds the rubber end of the probes + the wires and has a cavity that the main body of the probe sits nicely in, leaving only a bit sticking up).

I can't tear down and show it in detail (system is being used right now), but here are some external shots of what I do...you can see the JB-Weld coming out the back of the fitting, it fills the entire space that the probes don't :)


http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8854/dallas1o.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1961/dallas2a.jpg

EDIT: realized I could take pics from the front of my res and see the probes sticking up a little :)
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/360/dallas3.jpg

Excellent info on the temp probe's there Shazza and Vapor.
I take it then skinnee, you also use the Dallas DS18B20 temperature sensors.

Is there any reason why you don’t just use the ready made BP temperature sensors fitting found here? http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=24759. I am guessing that you find the Dallas DS18B20 to be more precise, is that right?


I also noticed that the CFA635 USB LCD used in your link Shazza found here http://www.crystalfontz.com/product/CFA635TFEKL.html only has a temp range from –0 degrees c to +50 degrees c.

This temp range on this LCD doesn’t seem to go high enough.:confused:

Is there a better one out there?

If you use a LCD, what one is it?
As I would like to have one set up a little like the one in your link.

When looking around the web site in your link, I found this, Tutorial: Connecting DS18B20 Temperature Sensors to the 633 http://www.crystalfontz.com/forum/sh...p?threadid=467

I'll tell ya what I know (which isn't much, I admit). I have the BP temp sensor - they work fine if you have something to connect them to. For example, they work okay with the Aquaero. And some mobos have a place to connect the two pin temp sensor. Not sure on the specs, I don't know if they are as sensitive as the DS18B20s, but I do know it takes a while for them to stabilize. I wanted to be able to log temps, so that's why I went with the CF 635 and SCAB - I have experience with crystalfontz and figure I might be able to get the software working.

I don't think the temp range will be an issue with the display, as I wouldn't think most systems are going to actually get to 50 degrees C (the CPU core temps and Vregs, yes ... but not the whole system).

Yep - I saw that link as well. I have some of the bare sensors, but believe that mod is beyond my capabilities at the time.

And, thanks skinnee, BrokenArrow, and Vapor for the responses on my question. I've got the 3M Epoxy and some syringes on order. I did a quick test one using water-proof silicone, but it's curing now, so haven't had a chance to test it. Am I gonna blow up my controller if the temp sensor gets wet, or just short out the sensor??? :rofl:

You'll just lose that sensor, but at $4 per its a good learning experience about what truly needs to be sealed. Well, thats how I justified it to the wife when she asked why I was cussing like a sailor as I went walking to the garage. :)

Kgtiger, the 0ºC to 50ºC is the operating temperature, meaning the PCB is designed to run in a meat freezer to a really hot test lab. Here is the Spec sheet on the DS18B20.

The overall package of a CF PCB, LCD and Sensors is just perfect for monitoring and logging temps. If I where looking to run my daily driver, then I would go with something like the Aquero and TMS-200 where you can power and monitor your pump(s), monitor a couple temps and have safety features like those boast. I'm not sure what the ratings are on the Aquero/TMS-200/HeatMaster are, but I know I only get 1.5A max per fan header (4 fan headers), can run 32 sensors and can take data samples every second.

Just like with GPU's, RAM and so on... we have options. I just see the CrystalFontz fitting a different application than the Aquero/TMS-200/HeatMaster.

Quote:

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You'll just lose that sensor, but at $4 per its a good learning experience

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Thanks. That's what my husband tried to tell me, but I'm paranoid from having killed my share of hardware :D

Thanks Shazza and Skinnee for your fast response to my questions, you have been very helpful and I do appreciate your time and effort you have put in to answering it.:up:
I will look at the list of items “Aquero/TMS-200/HeatMaster “you have mentioned for me later Skinnee, as I need sleep.

Just one other question, the DDC 3.25 pump is only rated to 60 degrees C.

If I was to have my set-up running in a TJ07 like, res (home made large in size) going to-DDC 3.25 pump's (in parallel, hopefully watercool's dual res top)-rad XSPC 120x2-rad XSPC 120x4, then split into two, one line to the CPU i7, and the other one going to graphic’s cards, 2x GTX 285 SLI, then both lines back to res/ end of loop.

How hot might the water get when it gets back to the pump?

I know you can only guess, however, if water temps in the res do reaches 60 degrees. Do the pumps die fast at this temp?

I understand there are so many variable’s. Now I have written the question out in front of me. I think I may have lost the plot asking it. Perhaps I am just too tired to think straight.:rolleyes:

Hope you are both well.

No worries, kgtiger - I know it's late in Perth. It's unlikely that your water temp is going to get high enough to worry about it. For example, if ambient is 25 degrees, and you have a 5-10 degree delta between air and water (which, from the graphs I've seen in skinnee and Martin's tests, is probably where most of us are), you still have a long way to go before you need to worry about your pump. In fact, your CPU might well have shut down by then.

Skinnee can correct me if I've got it wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

Thanks. That's what my husband tried to tell me, but I'm paranoid from having killed my share of hardware :D

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Yeah, its never fun killing hardware... but it comes with the territory. :p:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kgtiger

*snip*

Perhaps I am just too tired to think straight.:rolleyes:

Hope you are both well.

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You lost me... but I wouldn't even venture a guess on water temps because I would probably be wrong.

edit: shaz, you've got it. You can only estimate. :up:

:toast:

Thanks Shazza and Skinnee, I know you can only give an estimate to my long winded question, sorry I lost you there Skinnee.
As I have never had any experience with building water cooled PC's before, or an PC for that matter, I don't know to much about it. However not knowing has too, has never stoped me from learning how too, and I am stoked that I have found a place with knowledgeable people that are open to giving there time to answer questions to people that are interested to learn, thanks again for that.

I will be taking the leap into building my first water cooled PC hopefully in the next 3 months.

Looking forward to your build, kgtiger. Keep reading, learning, questioning, and planning.


OK, Got the Crystalfontz 635 with SCAB hooked up. Got my makeshift "water-proofed" probe attached and now just checking things to see if they make sense. This is a 30 minute run, where I measured Air In @ the radiator, and Water in the XSPC reservoir (CPU at 4 GHz, 1.46 Vcore, 98%+ load crunching):




http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...08_jTRh2-L.jpg



Now, off to investigate the major force behind my moving Delta ...

Nice Shazza. Nothing beats the accuracy of those Dallas temperature probes.

I have always wondered what affect of the surrounding ambient temperature plays on a reservoir mounted temperature probe versus one that is actually in-line with the water flowing by such as one inside a Tee.

I am sure it is very little difference, but your probes would probably show the difference...hint hint.

Also, this ambient affect may not be so apparent on the torture rack as opposed to a reservoir inside a closed "heated" case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

Looking forward to your build, kgtiger. Keep reading, learning, questioning, and planning.


OK, Got the Crystalfontz 635 with SCAB hooked up. Got my makeshift "water-proofed" probe attached and now just checking things to see if they make sense. This is a 30 minute run, where I measured Air In @ the radiator, and Water in the XSPC reservoir (CPU at 4 GHz, 1.46 Vcore, 98%+ load crunching):




http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...08_jTRh2-L.jpg



Now, off to investigate the major force behind my moving Delta ...

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There's a 'delay in response' because of the volume of water. If you look, your air curve is some 30px to the left of the water curve (no units on the bottom, :()

Remedy by including a warm up for however many minutes it takes your system (room ambients included in the 'system') to reach equilibrium :)

Looks like a great start for sure though :toast:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

Looking forward to your build, kgtiger. Keep reading, learning, questioning, and planning.


OK, Got the Crystalfontz 635 with SCAB hooked up. Got my makeshift "water-proofed" probe attached and now just checking things to see if they make sense. This is a 30 minute run, where I measured Air In @ the radiator, and Water in the XSPC reservoir (CPU at 4 GHz, 1.46 Vcore, 98%+ load crunching):




http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...08_jTRh2-L.jpg



Now, off to investigate the major force behind my moving Delta ...

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Could you have had a central Air Conditioning System kick in at about the 75% point on your timeline? The air temps are falling off at that point..

Edit:
Stable air temps should help stablize your deltas bigtime.

Bingo ... I figured you smart guys would figure it out. Also, a shout out to skinnee for telling me to use WinTest to log my temp sensors instead of CC2. Also, from reading Vapor's test methodology for water blocks, I saw that he found OCCT more stable, so I finally got that to work on this setup (had to enable Everest to allow external program access, cause I was getting crazy voltages using the built-in OCCT software).

It looks like the A/C cycles regularly, and this gets picked up by the Air-In temp reading. Then the water temp changes, but with a lag time (I expected that, just didn't expect to see the magnitude of the effect). This was easier to see on a chart from a longer run period.

So, I guess this means I might have to use a longer testing period - maybe 2 hours? And, as per BrokenArrow's suggestion, I'll also add a temp probe in-line, once I get the new expoxy. Here's a rough chart showing a longer run this afternoon (this was taken during the start of an OCCT run, so the first minute is at idle):



http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...08_26N8Z-L.jpg

Do you mind making one more chart line for the chart?

A moving average of delta...start like 10min into the data and do "=average($Col$Row:$ColRow)" and drag all the way to the bottom :)

You should see the curve get progressively smoother, the end point is your final number :yepp:

(the end point being the average of all deltas from minute 10 to minute XX :))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

So, I guess this means I might have to use a longer testing period - maybe 2 hours?

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You could try the following protocol;
1) Late evening - Outside ambients in Florida should approach inside target ambients. 70-75F
2) Turn off your central A/C. However, leave the recirc fan running to dissipate the heat your system is generating.
3) With no solar loading, your house temps should stay relatively stable for a 30-45 min run.
4) I believe that you will get a higher quality data set & resultant analysis if you focus of stabilizing your air temp. My 2 cents worth...
Regards,
Raptor:)

Thanks, Raptor. I agree stabilizing air temps will help a lot. Unfortunately, no real easy way to do it (currently in Arizona and the computer is in the garage), but it's getting cool enough that we soon won't need to run the A/C at all, so that might help.

Like this, Vapor? (You realize I haven't had to do my own spreadsheets and charts for a long time :p:). And, I think I said my Delta was 5 degrees back in Post #9 :rofl:





http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...99_8tEXT-L.jpg

Yup, that's the gist of the testing you're doing....not so much looking for the momentary deltas, but rather use the entire XX minutes of data, and that's just a way to show how the delta closes in to a single number :)

After looking at that graph, I'd probably start later than 10min (see that upcurve in the beginning?)...though I'm not sure how long your system will take to reach equilibrium, you'll have to play with that :p:

shazza ... i wonder if you guys can test mcr480 as well?
i've been searching the forum for some info ... no one seems made the first thread ...

Thanks much for the help, Vapor (I'm sure I'll be reaching out again, soon). Yeah - I cut off some more of the early data - Delta moving average went from 5.0 to 5.1. I'm letting things run overnight to see what my temp curves look like.

Hi Serpentarius - I do plan on testing the Swiftech MCR 420, but remember, my testing is not going to be anywhere as precise as that by the pros. I'm doing this just to learn what I can about my setup, so not playing on the same field as the big boys ;)

Hay come on, you are a big girl now. The fact that you are playing is the main point.

Keep it up Shazza it's good to see some results, well done.:up:

;) @ kgtiger


arghhh ... forgot to turn the data logging on last night. But, started it early this morning. Did not turn on the A/C in the garage for several hours. Runs are much steadier, as you can see in the following chart. I think I've got enough info to get going now --- let's get testing.



http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...22_kVZYd-L.jpg

Great Job "taming the data". :up:
Your testbed will make for some very interesting studies. I look forward to them. THANK YOU for sharing with us.

you're taking to this like a duck to water, good work shaz!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raptor-X

Great Job "taming the data". :up:
Your testbed will make for some very interesting studies. I look forward to them. THANK YOU for sharing with us.

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Thanks, Raptor-X - you were spot on when you said to try with the A/C off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skinnee

you're taking to this like a duck to water, good work shaz!

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A very old duck :confused2 Thanks again for the help.


Trying to get some actual testing done, but keep runnning into little snags. For some reason, OCCT is acting up (maybe cause I'm using it to call Everest and using Win 7 64-bit :shrug: ) So, back to Real Temp for logging Core Temps and WinTest for logging fans and temps. Running BOINC for 99%+ load.

I'm going to have to be judicious in my choice of data points unless i only do runs early in the morning or late at nite. Looking at this chart, you can see where I can pull in 3 15+ minute time periods during a 2 hour run. Not ideal, but will give me the trends i'm looking for. I took the average of the 4 Core Temp readings. I have another data set for the GT fans at 1000 RPM, but still working on the data, and it's almost :banana::banana::banana::banana:tail time.


http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...10_ZCJmg-L.jpg





And, for kicks, some pics of the Crystalfontz 635 and SCAB:


It comes in an environmentally friendly box:
http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...07_zo5tg-M.jpg





All the stuff, less two temp probes in use:
http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...79_EvaKo-M.jpg





http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...03_ThAbQ-M.jpg






Forgot to mention I had to switch to the 4870x2 because I wore out the old 7600GS. Not ideal, cause the fan blows on the res, and it's noisy on air. You can also see my almost DIY case for the 635:
http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...13_WJw5i-M.jpg




Whew, between XS, my Black Pearl build, and this stuff, I might as well get a full-time job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

Whew, between XS, my Black Pearl build, and this stuff, I might as well get a full-time job.

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Or you might catch naekuhitis. :rofl:

and now you know why my Torture Rack is half built, and I am still working on reviews that I finished testing for months ago. :D

your Air In/Ambient looks to deviate 2-3º over the 75 minute logging period, which is actually pretty good. You're going to have some variance unless you take measures to have finite control... you'll eventually end up at Environmental Chamber, just accept the variance and note your "normal" variance. ;)

Whats odd is the trend of your dT compared to the variance of your Air In and Water temp...hmmm...only thing that comes to mind is BOINC, but I could be wrong. :shrug:

:caution: :caution: :caution: :caution: :caution:

Science below! :soap:

The 'spikes' in dT should be counted!

Those are nothing more than the cresting/valleying of the air/water graphs being out of sync. When you change air temperature (if you have a space heater, below is a fun experiment to try), the water temperature will respond--but due to the volume of water in the system, that response is not instant, in fact, it's delayed very strictly based on the volume of water you have (and the efficiency of the energy transfer and the substances in play [mostly just water in this case]).

If you slid the water temperature graph X minutes to the left (I would look at when each curve crests to find what X is) and synced them perfectly, you'd eliminate the peaks but the general line would be a little higher. Why?

There are three factors to consider (for now):
1) temperature is the average of energy in a system
2) two systems (room air = one system; water in the PC = other system) take time to reach equilibrium when energy is changed
3) at the same time, one system is simultaneously increasing its energy (room is heating up slowly)

But because of the first two factors, any change in energy of one side of the equilibrium will take awhile to completely effect the other side. "How long" is dictated by the mass and thermal properties of the material. Add in the third factor (a slow increase in energy/temperature), and you get a "lag" in the display of the two. Because the room's energy is increasing (i.e., going toward the loop's energy) and the water's response 'lags,' you're actually undershooting the real difference in temperatures.

Now let's reverse the third factor--let's cool the room back down (quickly)! What you get when you do that is one side of the equilibrium is brought down to nominal energy within a few minutes is that the lag still exists, but now it's effect is negative. And because it's a faster change in energy, the effect in delta is magnified and the dT appears to spike.

So how do you fix it? Well, you can 'cheat' and just resync the energy (temperature) curves (not so easy sometimes) or you can roll with the punches of physics and use the fact that temperature is an average of energy and just average the temperature data you have!

First, let's just examine why resyncing is difficult: you need to either have incumbent knowledge of the mass (and in turn, volume) of the water in the system as well as knowing how efficient the rad is (though this plays a small part in the numbers, you do need it in order to be precise)...but if you knew how efficient the rad were, you wouldn't be doing these tests in the first place. Or you could just closely examine the data and figure out how long the 'lag' is and resync that way....but if you already have all the data, why not just simply average it?

Here's an example of why I wanted you to do a moving average of the data you acquired...below I've called it an "extending average" since a moving average typically has a finite length of time over which you're averaging....I'm just adding in every bit of data I get into the average and extending it ad infinitum.
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3858/capturerj.png

For simplicity's sake, I used sine waves for Air and Water temperatures and a predetermined delta of 2C between the two (as well as a 'lag' of X=.25). You can see the delta curve oscillating (much like yours, just more regular in shape) between ~1.5 and ~2.5...but the number we ultimately care about is the average of all the dT's...and that's expressed in the moving average. As time goes on, that moving average hones in closer and closer to its actual value of 2. An important feature of the extending average is that it doesn't matter where I start or where I end (for instance, I started it at the worst possible time and ended it at a random time and the result still came to 1.992), just that the longer I go, the more reliable it becomes.

If I were to resync the sine curves, the green line would be flat at 2, but of course that would have required I know how to resync them (which isn't automatic when you're acquiring 'random' data).

In light of the graphs you've shown, you're only counting the valleys of the delta, which while they look nice, they only tell a part of the story about the performance. You need to include all of the data! If I were to redo my data with a worse radiator (higher delta) with more mass to the system (larger volume), the valleys end up looking the same (~1.7C), even if actual performance of the radiator has changed significantly.

Anyway, long story short...use all the data you get after a warmup! :yepp:

EDIT: forgot to add the fun experiment :p: Using a space heater, place it next to the rad and crank it up and do your testing (well, start the testing before you start the heater)...your air temps will come really close to your water temps as the two increase (appearing to close the delta)! It'll almost be like hotter temps = more efficient rad, but that's not the case, you're just messing around with physics :p:

:scope::wth::nuts::zombie::confused2


Thanks for the input, Vapor. I'd hate to let science get in the way of my little project, but I see your point.

It goes against the grain to remove any data - I hate having to make subjective guesses. Was just trying to eliminate the variable of the A/C cycling off and on. I think sticking to late evening / early AM and using all the data as you suggest is the way to go.

I did a couple of runs last night and a quick look at ALL the data shows me the following (this a ROUGH look at the data, just used simple average for each column - will redo in a bit):


Delta of 4.3 with Gentle Typhoons at 1400 RPM on MCR320
Air Temp: 27.7
Water Temp: 32.0
Avg Core Temp: 61.9
Avg Core T - Air T: 34.2


Delta of 6.3 with Gentle Typhoons at 1000 RPM on MCR320
Air Temp: 27.0
Water Temp: 33.3
Avg Core Temp: 64.1
Avg Core T - Air T: 37.1



This is @ 4.001 GHz and Vcore of 1.388 using BOINC for load.


Using the eXtreme PSU calculator, I come up with 241 Watts for the CPU. When I plug this info and my air temp into skinnee's water temp estimator spreadsheet, I get Delta of 4.9 for 1400RPM, and 6.8 for 1000RPM.

The CF 635/SCAB is controlling the fans. At 100% I'm showing about 1400RPM, at 58% I'm getting about 1000RPM. I did notice the numbers jumping around on one of the fans when set to lower power. So - I'd just use my 1000RPM numbers as estimates at the moment.


Seems reasonably close for all the variables involved. My main concern is being able to get consistent results so I can comfortably compare data for MY SETUP - thus eliminating the worries that come with using the assumptions when looking at professional test data. Good thing is, my temp sensors seem to be doing a decent job, and I'm refreshing my Excel skills.

Back at it ...

.5º and .6º on the estimator... thats not bad considering the fan difference. ;) ;)

You do have a really good baseline though. Re-tune your excel skills one test at a time, too much and you'll go bat :banana::banana::banana::banana: crazy. :D

Hay Shazza, how did the silicone work out for sealing your temp probes, and did you end up getting anything else to try sealing them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skinnee

.5º and .6º on the estimator... thats not bad considering the fan difference. ;) ;)

You do have a really good baseline though. Re-tune your excel skills one test at a time, too much and you'll go bat :banana::banana::banana::banana: crazy. :D

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Yeah ... I thought the results were reasonable. I know doing this is certainly helping me understand how things work with respect to temperatures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kgtiger

Hay Shazza, how did the silicone work out for sealing your temp probes, and did you end up getting anything else to try sealing them?

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The silicone is working fine - may have a problem down the road, but so far no issues. I did get the 3M epoxy referenced in the link I gave, as well as some syringes, but now I need to order a few spare sensors before I start messing with them.

Hmmnnn ... got some preliminary results on the Swiftech MCR 420. Delta of 3.7 with the Gentle Typhoons @ ~1400 RPM (compared to Delta of 4.3 for the MCR 320 under same setup).



Here's a graph of the data for a two hour period from midnight to 2AM - actually have a lot more data, but it takes forever to set it all up - just about kills my MacBook Pro - Core 2 Duo @ 2.8GHz. If nothing else, this exercise makes me appreciate the i7 920 for data crunching.



http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...5_YLhJm-XL.png



Used the same scale as before for comparison purposes. Temps were very stable. BOINC used for load - consistently running above 98%. Now trying a run with OCCT, and I'll also be going back to recheck the MCR 320 ... my Delta seems a tad low from that last run, so will double check my data and rerun the testing.

Looks really stable, seams you have found the ideal time to test.

I see that you use Gentle Typhoons fans, has there been any testing here at XS of which fans are the best to use.
I have read else where that the Gentle Typhoons fans come highly recommended.

I'm following this thread with interest as I plan to do some testing of my own when time and money allows.

Grats on mod (I think?) status, Shazza. You're certainly someone that will fill that role perfectly.

Wow, there's a lot of information in all the graphs.
If you are stress testing with WCG/BOINC make sure you pick just one project (eg. HCC) because the amount of stress the different projects put on the CPU can vary.

(:woot: 800th post!)

Awesome testing Shazza!

I have a feeling that as your testing methodology gets better and better, you may find yourself rivaling the testing "greats" that we all know and love.

My main point: I think you have communicated something important here, even with this preliminary test: This thread shows just how important ambient air temps are to so-called "water cooling". Your "sine-wave" graphs are really great: they really show the effects of the AC cycling on and off in your garage! I don't think anybody has demonstrated that before (I have never seen a graph showing changes in ambient air temps before). I realize that it was not your intention to show how sensitive the water temp is to the ambient air temp, but I think it is great data for everybody to see! (It may sound quite obvious to you and me, but there are plenty of people out there who still don't seem to understand the point that the performance of your "water cooling" system is entirely dependent on the ambient air temp.) Again great work! I think we have a new tester to rely on, in addition to Martin, Skinnee, Vapor, Bundymania and HESmelaugh! (or at least I do anyway.)

One last point: I think you also showed that the venerable old MCR320 is still a great performing radiator! I am impressed at how well it did in your tests. (I have an old MCR320, but I haven't used it for years, and I have instead preferred to use the more expensive competitors, but I am re-thinking that idea, because of this post! [Note: Just so you know I am not a shill for Swiftech: I am still mad at Gabe for selling me that friggin' Apogee GTX with an aluminum top! :down: What the heck was he thinking when he made that? And what was I thinking when I bought it? :confused: Shame on you Gabe for selling that turd!])

Thanks Shazza, and keep up the good work!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kgtiger

...
I see that you use Gentle Typhoons fans, has there been any testing here at XS of which fans are the best to use. I have read else where that the Gentle Typhoons fans come highly recommended.

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The Gentle Typhoons seem to be all the rage right now - they are very quiet and seem to be good performers. You can check out Martin's review here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alacheesu

I'm following this thread with interest as I plan to do some testing of my own when time and money allows.

Grats on mod (I think?) status, Shazza. You're certainly someone that will fill that role perfectly.

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Thanks, alacheesu (I think ;)) GL with your testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hotwaxisbad

Wow, there's a lot of information in all the graphs.
If you are stress testing with WCG/BOINC make sure you pick just one project (eg. HCC) because the amount of stress the different projects put on the CPU can vary.

(:woot: 800th post!)

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Congrats on 800+ And ... thanks for that tip, not something I would have thought of!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eth0s

Awesome testing Shazza!
...

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You are too kind, eth0s. I do not believe I see a white lab coat in my future :eek:


Thanks for the comments, everyone. I figured this thread is duller than watching my paint dry in my current work log, but I very much appreciate the guidance and suggestions.

And, as for figuring out the impact of ambient temps / Air Conditioning cycling, and more ... check out the next post for more lovely "background" data.

Another test run last night, using OCCT for loading. I was a bit bothered by the fact that I seemed to hover around 98%+ while using BOINC. Well, guess what - running OCT I was right around 95-96% (which is lower than some previous runs). Only other thing I had open was WinTest for temp monitoring. Who knows what is lurking in the background of the new Windows 7 OS???


GOOD NEWS is, I definitely seem to be able to get stable results. Bad news is, I haven't yet determined my protocol for comparison testing. I'd much prefer to use BOINC, because I'd like the rig to crunch all night. I'll give just running one project a try. I'm okay running BOINC as my load, even if it gives me a slightly different result than I get with OCCT, as long as I can get consistent results and also have an idea of the magnitude of differences between the two methodologies. After all, one of the main reasons to do this is to set up a crunching rig.


Before I get to the graphs, a comment on my preliminary test results for the MCR320 compared to the MCR420 - yesterday I saw about a Delta of 3.7 on the 420, compared to 4.3 on the 320. Today's results are showing a bit higher on the 420. Still working through whether it might be due to OCCT vs BOINC (or possibly the fact that a jug of distilled water was sitting almost in front of the radiator for last night's test :doh: - I've got the fans pulling air into the radiator, but still could have had some impact).


OK - this chart just shows a prolonged testing period of about 8 hours. First 4 running OCCT, second half at idle. You can also see where the trusty A/C kicks on. And, interesting to note that you can also see the "Air-In" temp dropping at the same time OCCT quits. Probably not a coincidence, but more likely a function of the ambient air surrounding the Torture rack being impacted by running at load - told ya these i7s are space heaters! I can also play around with some additional air temp sensors. [I have enough trouble with thermodynamics, I don't need the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle toying with me]

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...94_wBKwe-L.png



The second chart is just the standard CPU 1 graph from OCCT:

http://shazza53.smugmug.com/photos/6...05_2kYUJ-L.jpg

Is your water temperature probe still in the reservoir? Or did you move to the Tee section?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrokenArrow

Is your water temperature probe still in the reservoir? Or did you move to the Tee section?

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Still using the reservoir. Did get my supplies to make up some more probes, just have to do it!

In WinTest, is everything disabled in the "Packet Debugger" section?

I get high-99s for CPU usage % with small data set setting in OCCT v3.1.0. If I don't disable everything, I get like 90% (but I have 24 sensors in use and all 4 RPM counters going, so I bet that increases the overhead).

I'm using 64-bit Vista SP2, if it matters.

That could well be it, Vapor. I have been clicking the "Packet Debugger" button and unchecking everything, but can't confirm I did that for the 2am run (and, I bet I didn't, because I restarted the computer, trying to get rid of any nonsense I had running). Will redo tonight. Thanks again for checking in on the noob, especially since you must be tired from your recent review!

If you can, put the CF on a separate PSU (P-PCs and a few other places sell laptop-like 12V PSUs with a molex connector and molex to floppy are available many places) and hibernate instead of shutting down. That's what I do (well, the CF and my pumps are on a Zippy that I only turn off to switch blocks)....that way you won't have to uncheck all the Debugger stuff and check all the logging stuff each time you power back on :)

Now I just mount, power on, enter my OS account, hit GO in OCCT and check the "Log to.." button in WinTest when I start a new test :)

Thanks for the link Shazza, much appreciated, I will take a look.

Keep up the excellent work, you know the more questions you ask, the more answers you get.

Shazza i have a question/request for you.
if you add a 4870x2 to that loop with the MCR420 would it hurt the cpu temps significantly?
Adding 15 to 20° extra?
Or would it be more in the range of 5° to 10°C
And what would it be with the MCR 320?

The reason i ask is simple i want to cool my setup with water and maybe overclock a little but the main reason is reducing the noise from my pc
Thanks in advance.

Xeon - I plan to do some testing with CPUs, but am away for a week, so it will be a while. I'd suggest getting an approximate heat load using the eXtreme PSU calculator, then using that with the radiator test data provided by folks like HESmelaugh and skinner.

My best guess is the 420 could handle it ok, but wouldn't hazard a guess at actual temps. Some are successfully running CPU am gpu on a triple rad. Temps would obviously be affected by fans, ambient, and OC.

I have just been trying different ways of applying, "Load" to a CPU this morning, As i now have a crystalfontz 365 set up on my test bench. However i was trying OCCT 3 as of the logging capabilities, which is great. I have noticed my Core temps are 10 degrees less then when using core damage.

Has anyone else noticed variations between different programs?

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...10h51-CPU1.png

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...10h51-CPU2.png

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...10h51-CPU3.png

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...10h51-CPU4.png

Not that I know much about this, however If both programs are running at 100% load (or near that) I would have thought the results would have been the same?
Has air temp been the same?

Yes, on both. i've stepped the cpu up to 3.6 GHZ, 20x 180 MHZ at 1.35V and i get the same temp reading as core damage. However i dropped it back down to the stock 2.67 GHZ and the temps are higher still with core damage.

OCCT, 60-58-58-54
Core Damage, 67-65-65-62


Air temp is 22 (within .4) in both.

I've not used core damage, so can't offer much. I do know that I get consistent readings with OCCT / Everest / Real Temp / EVGA E-Leet / HW monitor / BIOS - understanding that some of these use the same readings.


By the way - I have not abandoned my testing. Just been tied up with the build I have going on. Also, we are getting ready to pack stuff up to head back to Florida, so don't want to get too involved til I've got everything set up there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazza

Also, we are getting ready to pack stuff up to head back to Florida, so don't want to get too involved til I've got everything set up there.

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So it's winters in Arizona and summers in Florida? Shouldn't it be the other way around? :shrug: :D (jk)