MS to allow for a Web Browser Ballot in their OS

Initially it was thought that no browser would be offered in the EU however according to an article from Ars Technica MS has agreed to what the EU proposed and will offer a browser ballot. How this will work is that a screen would allow users to choose from several different browsers. Browsers such as Google, Mozilla, Opera, etc maybe be included but the article doesn't say for certain. The article also indicates that MS's cooperation is in relation to yesterday's earnings announcement. You can read more about it in the link above.

i'd like this in the Us version as well

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Originally Posted by orangekiwii

i'd like this in the Us version as well

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+1 :yepp:

i still think this is stupid. 90% of the people will still install IE because its all they've ever used.

I say why only in Europe? If 90% people want to install it the option is still there. Well at least in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

Initially it was thought that no browser would be offered in the EU however according to an article from Ars Technica MS has agreed to what the EU proposed and will offer a browser ballot. How this will work is that a screen would allow users to choose from several different browsers. Browsers such as Google, Mozilla, Opera, etc maybe be included but the article doesn't say for certain. The article also indicates that MS's cooperation is in relation to yesterday's earnings announcement. You can read more about it in the link above.

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thanks for the link!!!

Somehow I just don't see them allowing Chrome unless they absolutely have to. It's the best answer for a bad situation for MS though, hopefully this will keep those monopoly-monkeys off their back.

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Originally Posted by ex2cib

i still think this is stupid. 90% of the people will still install IE because its all they've ever used.

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The less people that use IE, the better. Still... 100% correct. People who currently use IE will continue to do so, since they don't know better.

On the plus side, EU users won't have to have IE on their comps.

Who wants to bet that MS will have IE8 as a "recommended" update anyways?

I keep IE installed for compatibility reasons, both for programs and some websites that still refuse to work properly with other browsers (internet banking sites)

what we need is a choice of installing IE6, IE7, IE8 and the MSN browser. and i would be pissed if safari installed stock since it has bonjor with it and i would not want anything from google with the OS.


and i would guess that the next step if this works is to make the sun JRE come with the OS (since .net is an unfair advantage) and just imagine when windows has its user base and the exportability of OSX

this whole browser argument is a waste of time. the majority of people have a p4 use ie6 and are perfectly happy. all they do is watch youtube go on facebook and check e-mail.

I use Firefox for most stuff, Opera for other stuff, and IE for whatever either of them mess up.

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Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

this whole browser argument is a waste of time. the majority of people have a p4 use ie6 and are perfectly happy. all they do is watch youtube go on facebook and check e-mail.

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IE6 only has about 15% of the browser market and that is because of corporations on Windows XP who are too lazy to update. On tech related sites IE6's market share drops dramatically to around 5% or less thankfully. It has poor support for CSS, transparent .png, and javascript, which EVERY website uses (or should) at least one of. MANY hours are wasted developing code specifically for IE6. Not to mention how much of a pain it is to use it.

None of the IEs are favorable imo, but IE6 is the worst.

Luckily Firefox has about 47% market share while all the IEs only have 41%. A positive change towards progress :up:.

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Originally Posted by STEvil

I use Firefox for most stuff, Opera for other stuff, and IE for whatever either of them mess up.

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+1 :up:

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Originally Posted by ex2cib

i still think this is stupid. 90% of the people will still install IE because its all they've ever used.

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and? does this cause them any problems? not at all...
so why is this stupid?

it gives other browsers a fair chance, thats all they asked for and thats what they deserve imo... and its lame that this will only be done for european versions of the os and not worldwide...

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Originally Posted by saaya

and? does this cause them any problems? not at all...
so why is this stupid?

it gives other browsers a fair chance, thats all they asked for and thats what they deserve imo... and its lame that this will only be done for european versions of the os and not worldwide...

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it dose set up MS with a problem since they will be shipping insecure browsers like chrome and safari. the only thing that saves them is that they are sub 5% market share once people have more choices and esier access it will make them targeted and then MS will be blamed.

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Originally Posted by zanzabar

it dose set up MS with a problem since they will be shipping insecure browsers like chrome and safari.

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As if Internet Explorer was 100% secure.

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Originally Posted by saaya

and? does this cause them any problems? not at all...
so why is this stupid?

it gives other browsers a fair chance, thats all they asked for and thats what they deserve imo... and its lame that this will only be done for european versions of the os and not worldwide...

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just wait for that first website they visit that NEEDS IE to run.

right then and there, most people will scrap whatever other browsers they have been using and go back to IE.

seriously, you think this will give other browsers a chance?

Doing this really won't bother the younger generations, its some of the older people that are entirely resistant to any change at all. They dont want to have to learn anything new.*


* and to all those that fall into this age range here, you're in a special demographic that actually cares to know facts :)

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Originally Posted by ex2cib

just wait for that first website they visit that NEEDS IE to run.

right then and there, most people will scrap whatever other browsers they have been using and go back to IE.

seriously, you think this will give other browsers a chance?

Doing this really won't bother the younger generations, its some of the older people that are entirely resistant to any change at all. They dont want to have to learn anything new.*


* and to all those that fall into this age range here, you're in a special demographic that actually cares to know facts :)

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It will cause all European sites to make sure they are complient with the major browsers.

To be fair, I haven't come across a website in Europe for a long long time, that doesn't work with Firefox or Opera.

To turn your point around, what happens if they load up IE and come across a website that only works in Chrome?

Microsoft isn't allowed to include its own software in its own OS = stupid 'nuff said.

Firefox can compete so whats the problem. Get your act together Opera, if Firefox can so can your company.

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Originally Posted by Smartidiot89

Microsoft isn't allowed to include its own software in its own OS = stupid 'nuff said.

Firefox can compete so whats the problem. Get your act together Opera, if Firefox can so can your company.

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QFE.

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Originally Posted by xoqolatl

As if Internet Explorer was 100% secure.

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You mean 'as if it wasn't the worst of the big three by some measure'.

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Originally Posted by Smartidiot89

Microsoft isn't allowed to include its own software in its own OS = stupid 'nuff said.

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Monopolies are dangerous and sometimes the legislators need to curb their activities = nuff said. :D

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Originally Posted by Smartidiot89

Firefox can compete so whats the problem. Get your act together Opera, if Firefox can so can your company.

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Firefox can compete because it "got a break". Mozilla and FF were practically unheard of three or four years ago, even though early versions were publicly available way back in 2002. IE had a near-absolute monopoly. Due to snowballing word-of-mouth, suddenly everyone knew about FF, and FF could capitalise on a reputation as a browser other than IE - it became "cool" to use FF.

Now that it's out there and in the wild, Opera will have no such luck - you can't excite people about a third browser, only an "underdog" competitor to a titan with an absolute monopoly.

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Originally Posted by >HyperlogiK<

Monopolies are dangerous and sometimes the legislators need to curb their activities = nuff said. :D

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How is it dangerous if IE is no longer the market leader?

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Originally Posted by >HyperlogiK<

Monopolies are dangerous and sometimes the legislators need to curb their activities = nuff said. :D

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Bundling IE with Windows is not a monopolistic act per se. And now giving the user a screen to actually choose a browser makes it less so.

If i make a program and want to include a plug-in for free within the package, why would someone stop me to do it?

The real problem is the end user. They will use and keep whatever is tossed on them at first. In this case that is IE, WMP, Outlook Express, and in some cases even Movie Maker and Paint.
It is their lack of will (or sheer laziness) to look for better alternatives or for one more suitable for their needs what made IE the most used browser for years (Netscape and Mozilla suite era mainly).

Whats next? When you pop in the installation DVD it asks if you want to install Windows 7 or a choice of 5 different Linux distros?

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Originally Posted by Salavat23

Whats next? When you pop in the installation DVD it asks if you want to install Windows 7 or a choice of 5 different Linux distros?

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Pretty much my opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by zanzabar

what we need is a choice of installing IE6, IE7, IE8 and the MSN browser. and i would be pissed if safari installed stock since it has bonjor with it and i would not want anything from google with the OS.


and i would guess that the next step if this works is to make the sun JRE come with the OS (since .net is an unfair advantage) and just imagine when windows has its user base and the exportability of OSX

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Please elaborate.

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Originally Posted by ex2cib

just wait for that first website they visit that NEEDS IE to run.

right then and there, most people will scrap whatever other browsers they have been using and go back to IE.

seriously, you think this will give other browsers a chance?

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youd be surprised how many people decide to go through the pain of calling or emailing those companies and complaining that their browser doesnt work instead of installing IE :D
not many, but quite some...

and so far the companies could tell them to fck off, now that win7 comes bundled with those browsers it wont be that easy anymore to get rid of those customers, and companies will focus more on making their sites multi browser compliant, which means more companies will enforce a PROPPER web standard that any application can work with instead of the partially chaotic patchwork we have now :D

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Originally Posted by Calmatory

Please elaborate.

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.net is like java for MS (they are both dynamic compilers), so its not fair to sun since u have to go and download it, like how IE is unfair since u have to dload other browsers. java is also vary insecure at least on windows. edit /sarcasm (sorry i thought it went through)

and with safari and chrome being insecure, with IE u have to install activeX plugins for most problems with security to happen with both of those they have had problems with the java engine that they use being extremely "trusting" and chrome can elevate its permissions without user permission. edit (not sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by zanzabar

.net is like java for MS (they are both dynamic compilers), so its not fair to sun since u have to go and download it, like how IE is unfair since u have to dload other browsers. java is also vary insecure at least on windows.

and with safari and chrome being insecure, with IE u have to install activeX plugins for most problems with security to happen with both of those they have had problems with the java engine that they use being extremely "trusting" and chrome can elevate its permissions without user permission.

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Java is insecure on Windows? How is that Microsofts fault or anything related to .NET framework?

I really can't see any reasonable and/or rational arguments for that .NET would be unfair. ...and considering that you said ".net and java are both dynamic compilers" just amuses me. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Motiv

It will cause all European sites to make sure they are complient with the major browsers.

To be fair, I haven't come across a website in Europe for a long long time, that doesn't work with Firefox or Opera.

To turn your point around, what happens if they load up IE and come across a website that only works in Chrome?

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I remember coding for we:banana::banana:ages in classes. Whatever worked in chrome, worked the same way in opera and firefox.

IE is the only thing that treats code differently.

IE handles javascript in a weird, weird way.


IE is really lazy about handling code. and thats just one of the many reasons i hate it

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Originally Posted by ex2cib

I remember coding for we:banana::banana:ages in classes. Whatever worked in chrome, worked the same way in opera and firefox.

IE is the only thing that treats code differently.

IE handles javascript in a weird, weird way.


IE is really lazy about handling code. and thats just one of the many reasons i hate it

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so as long as you DONT code for IE there won't be a problem?:clap:

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Originally Posted by Pontos

Bundling IE with Windows is not a monopolistic act per se. And now giving the user a screen to actually choose a browser makes it less so.

If i make a program and want to include a plug-in for free within the package, why would someone stop me to do it?

The real problem is the end user. They will use and keep whatever is tossed on them at first. In this case that is IE, WMP, Outlook Express, and in some cases even Movie Maker and Paint. It is their lack of will (or sheer laziness) to look for better alternatives or for one more suitable for their needs what made IE the most used browser for years (Netscape and Mozilla suite era mainly).

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It depends whether they want to legislate fairly or for the greatest benefit to consumers. Personally I think it is reasonable to legally intervene in the activities of monopolistic companies to take account of problems that are actually as much the fault of the consumer. i.e. what is best for everybody matters more than what is fair for microsoft, but it isn't clear where the line should be drawn.

thats what the government is supposed to do, its the peoples representatives, not the company representatives...
well, that was the idea originally, but its becoming more and more the latter :D

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Originally Posted by Pontos

Bundling IE with Windows is not a monopolistic act per se. And now giving the user a screen to actually choose a browser makes it less so.

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If I don't make a mistake, in the 3 first years of IE, IE despite being free has gain only 30% of the market. In a few months, when IE was put in windows has gained 80% of the market. Not abuse of monopolistic position? If you don't remember the history, you can't understand what happen today... And what has happened today, is less drastic than what could have occured when american justice has thinked to put microsoft in small piece...
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/o...05-07time.mspx

:shrug:

For the ballot screen, all details from a microsoft point of view (like what browsers to include...) are here: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...statement.mspx

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Originally Posted by nemrod

If I don't make a mistake, in the 3 first years of IE, IE despite being free has gain only 30% of the market. In a few months, when IE was put in windows has gained 80% of the market. Not abuse of monopolistic position? If you don't remember the history, you can't understand what happen today...[/url]

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http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00292/4562140.png Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:In...usage-data.svg

Thanks for this graph Junos.

(Despite it looks quite strange with points not corresponding to datas from the same source)
Original data:
"Date","Percentage"
1996,3.75
1997,17.5
1998,35
1999,62.5
2000,83.75
2001,90
2002,95.25
2003,94.75
2004,92.625
2005,86.903861

Edit in fact original one (which is related to data) is:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sage_share.png

Don't know which one is correct.

I must admit I am glad that they are going to cater for some sort of browser in Windows 7 E as the very thought of an OS with NO browsing facility (be it via a ballot or Windows Update) was pretty nonsensical.
I still do not see the issue of having IE bundled with the OS anyway (I mean you can uninstal it from programs and features if you wish to remove it)
John

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Originally Posted by JohnZS

I must admit I am glad that they are going to cater for some sort of browser in Windows 7 E as the very thought of an OS with NO browsing facility (be it via a ballot or Windows Update) was pretty nonsensical.
I still do not see the issue of having IE bundled with the OS anyway (I mean you can uninstal it from programs and features if you wish to remove it)
John

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From my understanding IE is integrated into XP, Vista, etc. So you cannot uninstall it. That was the whole problem in a nutshell.

You can read more about what you can do if you don't want IE8 for example, here. This will IMO make Win7 E a sought after OS as it should mean that IE will no longer be integrated in the OS.

Thanks for the heads up :)
I usually use Firefox, but for the odd few sites I revert back to IE so to have 7 WITHOUT a browser seemed rather stupid (IMHO), but the ability to remove the browser from Windows Features is a good idea for those who do not want IE and like to save disk space:)

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

From my understanding IE is integrated into XP, Vista, etc. So you cannot uninstall it. That was the whole problem in a nutshell.

You can read more about what you can do if you don't want IE8 for example, here. This will IMO make Win7 E a sought after OS as it should mean that IE will no longer be integrated in the OS.

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IE stopped being integrated into Windows with Vista, hence why if you type in a web address in an explorer window on Vista, it no longer magically turns into a web browser - like it did with XP and earlier.

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Originally Posted by [XC] Lead Head

IE stopped being integrated into Windows with Vista, hence why if you type in a web address in an explorer window on Vista, it no longer magically turns into a web browser - like it did with XP and earlier.

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You sure about that? I would consider such a change a big plus with Vista/7 in that case, but they may simply have disabled the switching back and forth. Any links?

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Originally Posted by ex2cib

I remember coding for we:banana::banana:ages in classes. Whatever worked in chrome, worked the same way in opera and firefox.

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We had this issue with the website for our gaming community. We have a nice bar that unfolds in different menus, etc. It works perfectly with Opera, FF, GC and Safari, but IE doesn't like it, so the website coder had to make it different for IE :shrug:

IE is always holding back the evolution of the web, it's the reason why this selection system must be put in! Why not the same for the rest of the world, while we're at it? :D

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Originally Posted by [XC] Lead Head

IE stopped being integrated into Windows with Vista, hence why if you type in a web address in an explorer window on Vista, it no longer magically turns into a web browser - like it did with XP and earlier.

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From my understanding IE is integrated into Vista as well. However, if you have a link suggesting otherwise post it up. I like to know about it. :up:

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Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

From my understanding IE is integrated into Vista as well. However, if you have a link suggesting otherwise post it up. I like to know about it. :up:

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I've heard it mentioned numerous times before, but here are two links I found:

http://www.esato.com/archive/t.php/t-139523,1.html

http://www.windows-vista-update.com/...xplorer_6.html

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Originally Posted by [XC] Lead Head

I've heard it mentioned numerous times before, but here are two links I found:

http://www.esato.com/archive/t.php/t-139523,1.html

http://www.windows-vista-update.com/...xplorer_6.html

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Those links say that Internet Explorer is no longer integrated with Windows Explorer. If that's true that doesn't necessarily say that it's no longer integrated in to Vista.

What else would internet explorer be integrated into? Nothing. Just like how Internet explorer wasn't integrated into 98/ME/2000/XP, it was just Integrated into Explorer - which is quite a big part of the Operating System

IE went up in use since netscape was outdated and then IE was the only thing left, then now that we have other browsers that work properly its share is going back down while people discover that there are other browsers and change since most people started with IE as the only browser

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Originally Posted by [XC] Lead Head

What else would internet explorer be integrated into? Nothing. Just like how Internet explorer wasn't integrated into 98/ME/2000/XP, it was just Integrated into Explorer - which is quite a big part of the Operating System

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The OS itself. If it's not integrated you would be able to uninstall it not roll back to a previous version when uninstalling the most current version. :up:

IE was integrated in to Explorer, and Explorer only - Explorer is very integrated into Windows itself. You uninstall IE7 on Windows XP, it rolls back to IE6.

As far as I know, that does not happen on Vista, or Windows 7. It may just reinstall IE7/8 from files that microsoft likes to leave behind. IE is a non-integral part of the NT6 series OS.

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Originally Posted by [XC] Lead Head

IE was integrated in to Explorer, and Explorer only - Explorer is very integrated into Windows itself. You uninstall IE7 on Windows XP, it rolls back to IE6.

As far as I know, that does not happen on Vista, or Windows 7. It may just reinstall IE7/8 from files that microsoft likes to leave behind. IE is a non-integral part of the NT6 series OS.

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Odd, as the instructions directly from MS site regarding the removal of IE8 from Vista make it clear that once you remove IE8 you will restore an earlier version of IE after you reboot. So from my point of view if you removed IE (regardless of the version) it should be removed from the OS not rolled back to an earlier version if it's not integrated in the OS. Be that as it may, we can only agree to disagree on this as its really off topic to the discussion of the thread.

IE8 is the worst ever in all of history known to mankind! I have it installed on 4 different partitions, on my 2 rigs (with both Vista x64 and WinXP-32). IE8 crashes or freezes with 1 out of every 8 webpages that I hit. Using compatibility view never helps. The fact that it needs compatibility view alone says a lot, already! Plus it's slow, resource-hungry, and does not save opened tabs like IE7, Opera, FF, etc.. did.. The only thing I liked about IE8 is that it tries to mimic the

Opera seems to be the most secure browser to use, hands-down. FF is probably just a tad bit more secure than IE.. I honestly think that Opera is the "holy grail" of browsers, as long as it maintains security.

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Originally Posted by STEvil

I use Firefox for most stuff, Opera for other stuff, and IE for whatever either of them mess up.

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Unfortunately that's exactly what I also do.................it would be nice if FF worked universally but the net being as it is I can't see that happening in my lifetime :shakes:

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Originally Posted by Bo_Fox

IE8 is the worst ever in all of history known to mankind! I have it installed on 4 different partitions, on my 2 rigs (with both Vista x64 and WinXP-32). IE8 crashes or freezes with 1 out of every 8 webpages that I hit. Using compatibility view never helps. The fact that it needs compatibility view alone says a lot, already! Plus it's slow, resource-hungry, and does not save opened tabs like IE7, Opera, FF, etc.. did.. The only thing I liked about IE8 is that it tries to mimic the

Opera seems to be the most secure browser to use, hands-down. FF is probably just a tad bit more secure than IE.. I honestly think that Opera is the "holy grail" of browsers, as long as it maintains security.

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It doesn't look like it is the problem with the IE 8, it is like it is user IQ related.

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Originally Posted by Bo_Fox

Opera seems to be the most secure browser to use, hands-down. FF is probably just a tad bit more secure than IE.. I honestly think that Opera is the "holy grail" of browsers, as long as it maintains security.

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At least according to this, even IE8 RC1 was much safer than Opera v9.64.

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Originally Posted by ex2cib

i still think this is stupid. 90% of the people will still install IE because its all they've ever used.

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in this modern day IE global marked share is down to less then 70% ;) if your theory is true progress will never be made... we humans are a curious race. If we would not try anything new ones in a wile we would still be living in the stone age. Progress is slow but it does take place ;)

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Originally Posted by dragonso

It doesn't look like it is the problem with the IE 8, it is like it is user IQ related.

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Harsh :shocked:

Usually I get along fine with FF 3.5.1, but FF 3.5 was awful (took ages to load), Internet Exploder..ooops I meant Explorer 8 is not that bad actually, I find that keeping it up to date is important as Microsoft regularly update the compatability views, believe it or not IE8 uses less CPU resources when playing back certain flash animations compared to FireFox.

Firefox reigns supreme but the differences between it and Internet Explorer are gradually becoming grey....to the point I am almost comfortable with IE8

John