Huge Radiators: Roundup

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06-06-2009, 05:32 AM
HESmelaugh

Huge Radiators: Roundup

After getting a chance to test the Black Ice GTX 560 quad 140 radiator against some triple-rads I was lucky enough to get my hands on some more radiators. With the TFC Monsta, Watercool Mo-Ra 2 Pro, Black Ice GTS 420 and XSPC RX480 the radiators in this roundup are mostly in about the same weight-class as the GTX 560.

Testing Method

Test-loop
- Laing DDC (MCP355) with EK X-Res
- 2x Inline heaters
- 4x Water-temp sensors
- 6x Air-temp sensors
- GMR flowmeter
- T-Balancer bigNG and Sensorhub for monitoring and logging temperatures amd flowrates

- Fans used: 120 mm Scythe Kama Flex 1900 and 140 mm Sharkoon System Fans

Each test run lasts 35 minutes, 25 minutes are warm up and the data from the last 10 minutes is all averaged out.
I don't control flowrates. The pump is always going at 12V and flow is as high as it can be in the loop. Just like the CPU blocks are tested with different flowrates due to differences in restrictiveness, I'm also testing radiators at "their own" flowrates, depending solely on their restrictiveness.
I do compare radiators of the 120-mm-format with those of 140-mm-format, even though such a comparison can never be 100% fair. The rads are being tested with different fans and (deliberately) different fan-speeds. Just keep in mind that the comparison can only be seen as a rough guide and different fans would (and do) lead to different results.

Now, let's get right to the good stuff...

Contestants

http://www.abload.de/thumb/045gkl.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/12ci0f.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/153hld.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/21lkik.jpg

From left to right: Feser / TFC Monsta (huge, expensive, flashy - if you haven't heard of this, you must be new to liquid cooling), Black Ice GTS 420 (polar opposite to the Monsta: While sharing the 3x140 format, the GTS is very thin and has very tight fin-spacing), XSPC RX480 (4x120 rad from XSPC - the RX360 proved to be a great rad for low-speed fans), Watercool Mo-Ra 2 Pro (9x120 radiator, hugely popular in Germany for it's silent cooling capability).

Flow

http://www.abload.de/img/flowgpmhglr.jpg

The TFC Monsta proves to be very unrestrictive. Save for the GTS 420 and the Mo-Ra 2 Pro, I would say that all of these radiators are showing fairly good flowrates. The Mo-Ra 2 is by far the most restrictive of the radiators tested, which isn't much of a surprise, really.

CW, single row of fans, push

NOTE: The TFC Monsta allows for 140 mm fans as well as 120 mm fans to be attached. It is always represented with two sets of data, a "140" or "120" showing which fan size was used.

http://www.abload.de/img/cwen6dyn.jpg

As you can see, this graph is very interesting, since there are trendlines crossing each other all over the place. Each time two trendlines cross, it means that one radiator is more suitable for higher fan speeds and the other is more suitable for lower fan speeds.
For example, we can see that the Monsta, using 140 mm fans offers better performance than the GTX 560 up until about 800rpm. At higher rpm, the GTX 560 becomes the better choice.
Similarly, we can see the XSPC RX480 out-doing the GTS 420 by a considerable margin at low fan speeds, but above about 900-1000rpm, the GTS 420 is in the lead.
And, comparing the very flat, very densely finned GTS 420 to the very thick, very loosely finned Monsta, we can see how these two radiator designs affect performance: The Feser Monsta offers superior performance up to about 1300rpm, after which the GTS 420 becomes slightly better.
Also worth noting is that the Monsta loses a huge amount of performance when it is equipped with 120 mm fans. With the smaller fans, the Monsta can barely keep up with the much more compact RX480 and is overtaken in performance by the GTS 420 at around 900rpm.
The only trendline that is never crossed is that of the Mo-Ra 2 Pro. This radiator simply offers astounding and superior cooling performance all the way from 400rpm to 1600rpm. At the top end of this range, the GTX 560 is coming close to it in terms of performance, though. It's possible that the GTX 560 will outpace the Mo-Ra at very high rpm. Keep in mind though, that the higher the fan rpm, the closer all values lie together. So even if the GTX 560 does outperform the Mo-Ra at, say, 3000rpm, it will most likely be only by a tiny margin.

CW, two rows of fans, push-pull

http://www.abload.de/img/cwdfen0d9w.jpg
*The Mo-Ra 2 Pro cannot be equipped with two rows, or rather "walls" of fans in push-pull like the other radiators (and even if it could, there's a limit to how many identical fans of any type I have and that limit is below 18 ). Just out of curiosity, I added the performance data for the single row of fans on the Mo-Ra in with the data on push-pull for all the other fans. Keep this in mind as you're looking at the results.

With double the fans, the tightly finned Black Ice radiators gain a lot of performance. With this setup, the Monsta (six fans) can still hold it's own against the GTX 560 (eight fans) up to about 700rpm and against the GTS 420 (six fans) up to about 900rpm - after that, it's Black Ice territory.
It's also worth noting that the RX480, while being overtaken by the GTS 420 at relatively low rpm, comes pretty close to the Monsta's level of performance at high fan speeds in push-pull.
While it's interesting and amazing respectively to see the GTX 560 (with eight fans) and the GTS 420 (with six fans) surpassing the Mo-Ra's (nine fans) performance at medium to high fan speeds, the comparison is not quite fair, of course. With 18 fans in push-pull, the Mo-Ra would undoubtably be hard to beat.

CW, all radiators tested so far, single and double fans

http://www.abload.de/thumb/cwallchec.jpg

As you can see, this one is pretty messy due to the sheer amount of data represented.

Data

http://www.abload.de/img/data1fr9.jpg

Details on the individual radiators in the posts below.
06-06-2009, 05:33 AM
HESmelaugh

TFC (The Feser Company) Monsta 360/420

http://www.abload.de/thumb/02rkau.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/02bkgvb.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/03ehb5.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/05adpb.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/06ihj9.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/084eln.jpg

Measurements: 15 x 10.4 x 47.5 cm

Fins per cm: 3.5

The TFC Monsta is the thickest radiator I've ever seen. It has almost twice the thickness of an XSPC RX or Black Ice GTX. It also has very generous fin-spacing.
The Monsta is the only radiator in this roundup that comes with more than the bare essentials: It includes two compression fittings, two stop-fittings (to close off two of the four threads on the radiator), an extensive set of screws that are black, matching the Monsta's color, a small bottle of anti-corrosion fluid as well as two silikcone gaskets, one for installing 140 mm fans, the other for installing 120 mm fans.
The Monsta's compatibility with two different fan sizes is a nice feature, but I can't really see it as a real bonus. Looking at the data, I cannot recommend using 120 mm fans with the Monsta at all. It loses a ton of performance compared to 140 mm fans. Using the larger fans, the Monsta performs very well at low fan speeds. In other words, it's well suited for silent cooling, but not a prime choice for high rpm fans. Highflow-fanatics will also appreciate it's low restrictiveness.

On the downside, there is the minor issue of size (the radiator is too big for internal installation, as are a few others in this roundup) and the greater issue of price. At about 260 USD, this radiator isn't exactly cheap. It's performance alone certainly doesn't warrant the price, but I doubt anyone would have expected as much. With it's carbon fiber side panels and the way it's being marketed, it's clear that you buy the Monsta for it's performance on the one hand, but also for owning something special, something "Extreme", for adding a status symbol to your hardware-shrine.

So, all in all, I think the Monsta concept works, and it's raw cooling performance at low fan speeds is better than I would have expected.

HWLabs Black Ice GT Stealth 420

http://www.abload.de/thumb/128tj4.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/11jwx4.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/10guem.jpg

Measurements: 15.5 x 3 x 46 cm

Fins per cm: 10

As I mentioned above, the main reason I really wanted to include this radiator in the roundup was that it's practically the anti-thesis of the Monsta: The GTS is very thin and has a very dense fin-structure, but shares the same format (3x140) as the Monsta. To me, it's very interesting to see how these two opposites compare to each other.
The GTS 420 is a HWLabs radiator and shares the design and characteristics of all it's peers. That is to say: It has a near perfect, glossy black finish, M4 threads, has the same fin-spacing as all the Black Ice Stealth rads etc.
It also shares a really blatant weakness with all the other HWLabs radiators in the 140 mm format: It's (unnecessarily) slightly too wide to fit into 5.25" drive bays. This means that while it's length will fit into a big-tower case, it's breadth means you'll probably have to get out your Dremel.
Apart from that, this radiator leaves a very good impression and once again shows how much potential radiators for 140 mm fans have. More importantly, among the rads tested here, the GTS 420 is a real bargain with a retail price of just 85 USD. That leaves you with enough change to invest in three extra fans for it, and a GTS 420 sandwiched in between six 140 mm fans probably offers the best cooling-performance-to-size ratio you'll see in a long time. Given that those fans are doing high rpms, at least.

Watercool Mo-Ra 2 Pro

http://www.abload.de/thumb/20x36f.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/21m42p.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/22t4ut.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/23y5bv.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/24j02p.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/25808y.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/2632ae.jpg

Measurements: 39 x 5.7 x 41.5 cm

Fins per cm: 6

The Mo-Ra 2 Pro is extremely popular, not to say legendary, in Germany and at least parts of Europe. It's known for offering extremely good cooling performance even with fans turned down to inaudiable speeds - perfect for silent cooling. And, as the test-results show, it really is a cooling beast and can hold it's own through a very wide range of rpm.
It's also very well manufactured and beautifully designed. Unfortunately, it has many tiny weaknesses and annoyances that a user has to put up with.
For one thing, fans cannot be attached directly to the Mo-Ra 2 Pro. In order to attach fans, you need to get a separately sold fan bracket thingy (last two pics above). This makes the whole package more expensive than it needs to be. To make things worse, the size of the holes for attaching fans on the bracket is very puzzling: The holes are too small for standard fan screws that usually come with fans, yet no screws are provided with the Mo-Ra or the fan bracket. So you can't use the ones that come with the fans and they don't give you ones you can use, either. Finally, there's the matter of flow. The Mo-Ra 2 Pro does hinder flow more than other radiators, though personally, I think it more than makes up for it with it's raw cooling power.
So, while the Mo-Ra is a great and powerful radiator, it seems that it could be improved with some relatively minor changes.
Good to know, then, that Watercool are working on a new Mo-Ra. That doesn't mean it'll come out any time soon, mind you. They're working on it and that's all that's known so far.

XSPC RX480

http://www.abload.de/thumb/15l865.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/16o4kf.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/17e115.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/18f0lw.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/19br1fk.jpg

Measurements: 12.4 x 5.8 x 51.6 cm

Fins per cm: 4

At first glance, it might seem that the XSPC RX480 is pretty much out of it's league in this comparison. And that's true as long as you're only looking at the data itself. The XSPC RX480 has one very considerable advantage over all the other candidates in this roundup: It can be installed inside a case with relative ease. A good big-tower case will accomodate this rad and you won't have to entirely rip out the case's guts and rebuild everything around a humongous radiator in order to make it work. In fact, this is probably the only radiator in this roundup that will comfortably sit in the bottom section of a TJ07 without you having to use more than a screwdriver to install it. So, for anyone who likes their rads internal and doesn't think of a huge MountainMods box when he hears the word "Case", this radiator is one to consider.
Looking at it's cooling performance, it's clear that it is very strong with low-speed fans. With silent fans, this radiator will match the performance of a GTX 560, beat the GTS 420 by a good margin and outperform a Monsta equipped with 120 mm fans. At higher speeds, it is outpaced by most of the competition, though. I'm not intending to understate that.

Also worth mentioning: If the radiator I got is any indication, the problems the first batch of RX's had with the finish are a thing of the past. The finish on my XSPC RX480 is flawless.

Thanks for reading. I hope you enjoyed this review and comments are, as always, welcome.
Check out the original article in German on www.DeXgo.com

Cheers,
Shane
06-06-2009, 05:44 AM
MomijiTMO

Wut you don't have 18 identical fans for this review? That is simply outrageous and I cannot forgive you.

:p:

Great review as always and I'm more impressed with the MoRa.
06-06-2009, 05:45 AM
BringerOdeath

Wow, that Mo-ra 2 is pretty Amazing, I just don't know how I would mount that....
06-06-2009, 05:50 AM
OldnBold

Nice review :p:

Thanks for the trouble ;)
06-06-2009, 05:53 AM
SoulsCollective

I've never liked that rad - given how obnoxiously big it is, I'm just not convinced.

Good review, good data, well presented, well written.
06-06-2009, 06:06 AM
Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by BringerOdeath

Wow, that Mo-ra 2 is pretty Amazing, I just don't know how I would mount that....

Yeah, if my car engine ever starts to overheat, just keep one of these badboys in your trunk for quick replacement. :rofl:

Judging by the temps, who needs fans for this darn thing?:shrug:

Great review, thank you! Now I just have to see how it compares to my Swiftech 240 x 2 stacked.
06-06-2009, 06:20 AM
Brodholm

Nice review! I'm just waiting for two RX480 to get here :) How long was it before they had problems with the rx480 rads? I getting mine from tom. He got them like a month ago or so. Maybe 1½.
06-06-2009, 06:23 AM
bluehaze

Monsta looks small compared to Mora :ROTF: Thanks for the review looks good. For my situation Monsta seems to be best rad as it fits in same spot as a 360 because the thickness doesn't matter and I am running cpu and 2 gpus with heatkillers off of it so it keeps the flow good!
06-06-2009, 06:30 AM
ILikeCosmosS

mora = awesome rad :D

awesome review as always
06-06-2009, 07:09 AM
prava

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehaze

Monsta looks small compared to Mora :ROTF: Thanks for the review looks good. For my situation Monsta seems to be best rad as it fits in same spot as a 360 because the thickness doesn't matter and I am running cpu and 2 gpus with heatkillers off of it so it keeps the flow good!

Mmmm even if thinkness doesn't matter, take in mind that the monsta is a lot larger and wider than the 360...

@HESmelaugh: really really nice job, thanks. Conclusion is...don't buy the monsta XD
06-06-2009, 07:11 AM
faster3200

Wow... the Mora is pretty bad.

Two different rads in push/pull beat it and the rest come close. For what is essentially 3 rads you would think it would perform better.
06-06-2009, 07:45 AM
Migi06

Quote:

Originally Posted by prava

Conclusion is...don't buy the monsta XD

When you compare Monsta 140mm and RX480 120mm they are equally same level.. When we are comparing 140mm and 120mm fans, we need cut 100-200rpm for 140mm fan to get same noise level.
So:
Monsta 140mm 1000rpm vs RX 480 1200rpm Water avarage - Air Difference is 6.65 vs 6.70
Monsta 140mm 1500rpm vs RX 480 1600rpm Water avarage - Air Difference is 4.25 vs 4.85
And 120mm Fans RX480 wins easily.

But monsta cost like 2*RX480 :ROTF:

Quote:

Originally Posted by faster3200

Wow... the Mora is pretty bad.

Two different rads in push/pull beat it and the rest come close. For what is essentially 3 rads you would think it would perform better.

Yea XSPC RX480 cost same like Mora 2 core or 2*360 swiftechs. Pretty aweseme low cost rad if flow isn't biggest problem.
06-06-2009, 07:50 AM
bluehaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by prava

Mmmm even if thinkness doesn't matter, take in mind that the monsta is a lot larger and wider than the 360...

@HESmelaugh: really really nice job, thanks. Conclusion is...don't buy the monsta XD

Doesn't matter, I have it mounted on the back of a banchetto where a 360 is supposed to go, it mounts easily because of the holes for mounting 120mm fans, and fits perfect imo, not too big, not too small! :)
06-06-2009, 08:16 AM
HESmelaugh

Thanks for commenting, everyone! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BringerOdeath

Wow, that Mo-ra 2 is pretty Amazing, I just don't know how I would mount that....

I forgot to mention this: The Mo-Ra comes with spacers and screws for mounting it to the side-panel of a case. It's also wide enough to just stand on it's own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brodholm

Nice review! I'm just waiting for two RX480 to get here :) How long was it before they had problems with the rx480 rads? I getting mine from tom. He got them like a month ago or so. Maybe 1½.

AFAIK, they only had problems with the early RX360. I never read about problems with the RX480.
Though it's been stated that they will switch to a matte finish and non-threaded fan holes - something I'm not terribly enthusiastic about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faster3200

Wow... the Mora is pretty bad.

Two different rads in push/pull beat it and the rest come close. For what is essentially 3 rads you would think it would perform better.

I don't think you can equate it to three rads, since it's built entirely differently from you usual x-pass rad. But I agree that three decent rads would likely outperform a Mo-Ra.

By the way: I love the quote in your signature. Loved that monologue and what he says is something that I often notice and wonder about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migi06

-snip
When we are comparing 140mm and 120mm fans, we need cut 100-200rpm for 140mm fan to get same noise level.
-snip-

Just out of curiosity: Where do you get that estimate from?

Generally, a 140 mm fan can be potentially more noisy than a 120 mm fan because it's pushing more air at identical rpm. Below a certain threshhold though, rpm makes no audiable difference in a quality fan, i.e. I wouldn't be able to tell if it's doing 300rpm or 500rpm from the distance I'm usually away from my fans.
All I'm trying to say is: I guess the noise-level relations between fan formats are pretty complex.
06-06-2009, 08:18 AM
Waterlogged

Quote:

Originally Posted by faster3200

Wow... the Mora is pretty bad.

Two different rads in push/pull beat it and the rest come close. For what is essentially 3 rads you would think it would perform better.

Yeah, I think the ppl that are praising the MO-RA completely and utterly fail to comprehend that it is basically 3 rads in 1 "tidy" :hm: package. The reason it does well at all is it's shear size compared to the other rads.

Maybe now ppl will believe me when I tell them the MO-RA is a very restrictive rad due to all those 180° bends.:rolleyes:

HES, do you have 2 of any of the rads that flow 2.0 GPM or higher? If so, can you put them both in a loop and see what kind of restriction we would be looking at?
06-06-2009, 08:44 AM
HESmelaugh

I currently don't have any rad twice anymore. I sold/gave away the extra ones from the sandwich-testing.

But I could maybe throw the RX480 and RX360 together in a loop. They have practically identical restriction, it seems.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure almost no one misunderstands the Mo-Ra, by the way. The reason it is popular with those who it is popular with is that it offers a tidy package with tons of cooling power at low fan speeds. If you aren't obsessed with flowrates and as-low-as-possible temperatures and are more focused on as-low-as-possible noise levels, a Mo-Ra is a great radiator. It's a lot less bother than installing three separate rads and it's also cheaper than three good rads.
06-06-2009, 09:15 AM
xeon_1

To bad you didn't have the MagiCool XTREME NOVA 1080
I would have liked to see a review of that one.
Anyway thx for taking the time to make a good review of all those rads
06-06-2009, 09:25 AM
dr-

hey Shane, any problems with the QC with the XSPC rad? i have been reading a lot about missing fins, bent fins etc. i know that XSPC has solved the paint problem which came with the first shipment, but I would like to know if it has solved the bent and missing fins problem as well...
06-06-2009, 09:34 AM
bentleya

Shane it would of been nice to see the TFC 480 In there, As not many people test Them, Not sure if it because you can't get TFC via aqua tuning, where you work.

But it will be nice to see the comparison between this and martins, to see how different the results are.
06-06-2009, 09:35 AM
Martinm210

Awesome work...man you have been busy!!

I'm suprised the Mo-Ra is so restrictive, I would have never guessed it would even be more restrictive than a GTS. It must have some very thin tubes or something causing that.

Anyhow, good to know in the 120 vs 140mm fans on the monsta, I suspected 140's are really needed to make full use of it's 140mm factor. Time to go order some, I think I'll go with the Koolance fans since they go up to 1700RPM.
06-06-2009, 09:41 AM
kinghong1970

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Yeah, I think the ppl that are praising the MO-RA completely and utterly fail to comprehend that it is basically 3 rads in 1 "tidy" :hm: package. The reason it does well at all is it's shear size compared to the other rads.

Maybe now ppl will believe me when I tell them the MO-RA is a very restrictive rad due to all those 180° bends.:rolleyes:

HES, do you have 2 of any of the rads that flow 2.0 GPM or higher? If so, can you put them both in a loop and see what kind of restriction we would be looking at?

i think Gabe should get some aluminum sheets to a metal shop and make up a MCR-920 enclosure (3x MCR-320) and sell that as a package deal...

America's Answer to Mo-Ra!!!

:D
06-06-2009, 09:43 AM
skinnee

you have been busy HES! I'm glad you got the C/W calculations licked, also nice to see the data table as well. Nice work! :up:

Although, should this test be battle of the fatties versus "huge". :p:
06-06-2009, 09:51 AM
kinghong1970

can one of you pro's out there explain to me the whole basis behind the C/W calculations and why it is so widely used?
i've tried googling it... kept getting some damned TV station...

sorry for my nub question...
06-06-2009, 09:53 AM
dsumanik

I tihnk another thing to think about with this review is that, all of these rads are at the current limits for PC watercooling. Calling one better than the other is like saying a ferrari is faster than a porche depending on wind conditions.

When push comes to shove, all these rads can handle a pretty substantial loop all on their own. The only real eyesore I can see in the roundup is the price of the monsta, although it does bring some unique features to the table:

-comes with fittings gaskets, screws, corrosion fluid.
-120/140mm fan mounting
-4 x g1/4 threaded fitting mounts

The last two points in that graph are why I purchased a monsta in the end, if you get stuck you can slap the rad onto a 120mm mount and the 4 intake/outlets allow you to install temp sensors, fill port/drain ports without a res, and allow for extremely flexible mounting options for such a large rad.

The price is retarded though seriously.

Alot of people are saying the Monsta is bad with 120mm fans too, I kind of disagree if you look on the graph it beats the XSPC across the chart with 120mm fans. So for instance is a buyer has a bunch of 120mm fans currently and a smaller case, he/she could buy a monsta and have tons of room for the future. Also monsta owners should take heed, there is not much point in running fans over 1000rpm on this rad, you gain alot of noise and very little performance, especially with a dual fan setup.

Also the Hwlabs GTX 280 is a very nice performancer to size ratio. Its the smallest rad in the roundup and a very good performer.
06-06-2009, 10:16 AM
HESmelaugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr-

hey Shane, any problems with the QC with the XSPC rad? i have been reading a lot about missing fins, bent fins etc. i know that XSPC has solved the paint problem which came with the first shipment, but I would like to know if it has solved the bent and missing fins problem as well...

The RX480 I got is literally flawless. The fins are perfectly spaced, the finish is smooth and even, all the threads are in the right place etc.
If my RX480 represents all the current RX rads then there is really nothing to worry about. But of course I can't really know since I only have that one radiator here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bentleya

Shane it would of been nice to see the TFC 480 In there, As not many people test Them, Not sure if it because you can't get TFC via aqua tuning, where you work.

But it will be nice to see the comparison between this and martins, to see how different the results are.

Agreed on both points. ;)
Just like with the 360s, I would obviously love to get my hands on a TFC 480. I've only heard good things about those rads and it would be great to see how they stack up agains the ones I've tested so far.

The problem is that not only don't I get samples from TFC, their products are actually available nowhere in Switzerland...
If they were, I'd just buy one. But if I have to buy one and pay for the rad, the international shipping and taxes (we pay lots of taxes here, for stuff that crosses the border), I'm paying ridiculous amounts of money for just a radiator...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

Awesome work...man you have been busy!!

I'm suprised the Mo-Ra is so restrictive, I would have never guessed it would even be more restrictive than a GTS. It must have some very thin tubes or something causing that.

Anyhow, good to know in the 120 vs 140mm fans on the monsta, I suspected 140's are really needed to make full use of it's 140mm factor. Time to go order some, I think I'll go with the Koolance fans since they go up to 1700RPM.

Yeah, it's been a few busy weeks. ^^
I was also surprised at how restrictive the Mo-Ra is. Tubes are 9mm afaik. I flushed it with water, like all the other rads and I assume that was good enough. But I think I'll reflush it with some vinegar and see if there's any more gunk in there. If there is -> retest.
I was also surprised to see how much of a difference fan size made on the Monsta. Another argument for 140 mm fans, IMO. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinnee

you have been busy HES! I'm glad you got the C/W calculations licked, also nice to see the data table as well. Nice work! :up:

Although, should this test be battle of the fatties versus "huge". :p:

Thanks! :)
Though I have to say, I am still a bit sceptical towards my results. Looking at the data table, there are some weird numbers in there...
I don't think that my results are dramatically wrong, but I'm guessing they're still a bit off here and there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinghong1970

can one of you pro's out there explain to me the whole basis behind the C/W calculations and why it is so widely used?
i've tried googling it... kept getting some damned TV station...

sorry for my nub question...

A radiators performance shows in it's temperature difference "Water - Air". i.e. how much hotter does the water get than the ambient temperature? The smaller this difference, the better the rad performs.

This difference is dependant on the radiators efficiency at transferring heat (in short: it's performance) and the amount of heat it has to deal with. The more heat is being dumped, the higher the temperature difference is going to be, obviously.

Now, C/W is exactly that measurement - temperature difference Water - Air - but adjusted to how much heat was dumped into the loop during testing. The heaters don't deliver a completely constant heat load, so just comparing the absolute temp differences isn't quite fair.

So if your data shows that radiator X produced a temp difference Water - Air of, say, 7.5° at a given fan speed, that's one part of the equation. Let's say that the average heatload during the test was 290W.

This results in a C/W of 7.5/290 = 0.025862

To translate C/W values back to tangible water temperatures, just multiply them with the estimated heatload in your LC loop and add your room temperature to that.

With the above example, I would say my system dumps maybe 180W of heat into the loop so it's 0.025862*180 = 4.66° plus my room temperature 24° = 28.66° water temperature.
So I could roughly estimate that I'd get a water temp of about 29° with a radiator that has a C/W of 0.025862

So much for my explanation. I hope it helps (and I also hope I didn't make any mistakes...).
06-06-2009, 10:30 AM
kinghong1970

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

The RX480 I got is literally flawless. The fins are perfectly spaced, the finish is smooth and even, all the threads are in the right place etc.
If my RX480 represents all the current RX rads then there is really nothing to worry about. But of course I can't really know since I only have that one radiator here.

i was playing around with my RX480 and i realized that my has one flaw... the 4 corners of the radiator does not lay flat against a flat surface.
it's a bit "twisted" to give appx 1/8" wobble at 2 opposing corners.

meh... so long as it hold water and cools it...

and now... for this part...

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

A radiators performance shows in it's temperature difference "Water - Air". i.e. how much hotter does the water get than the ambient temperature? The smaller this difference, the better the rad performs.

This difference is dependant on the radiators efficiency at transferring heat (in short: it's performance) and the amount of heat it has to deal with. The more heat is being dumped, the higher the temperature difference is going to be, obviously.

Now, C/W is exactly that measurement - temperature difference Water - Air - but adjusted to how much heat was dumped into the loop during testing. The heaters don't deliver a completely constant heat load, so just comparing the absolute temp differences isn't quite fair.

So if your data shows that radiator X produced a temp difference Water - Air of, say, 7.5° at a given fan speed, that's one part of the equation. Let's say that the average heatload during the test was 290W.

This results in a C/W of 7.5/290 = 0.025862

ok, so according to your chart, you have temps for air in and air out as well as temps for water in and water out...

which figures do you use for the temp difference of "Water -Air" ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

To translate C/W values back to tangible water temperatures, just multiply them with the estimated heatload in your LC loop and add your room temperature to that.

as for estimation of your heatload, where and how?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

With the above example, I would say my system dumps maybe 180W of heat into the loop so it's 0.025862*180 = 4.66° plus my room temperature 24° = 28.66° water temperature.
So I could roughly estimate that I'd get a water temp of about 29° with a radiator that has a C/W of 0.025862

So much for my explanation. I hope it helps (and I also hope I didn't make any mistakes...).

aaah, i get this part... you're basically taking the CW value and plugging it backwards to get appx water temps in your loop when exiting the radiator...

i think my brain cell just split!!!
cell count hittin double digits now!!!

watch out you 1337 testers!!! evolution is in action!

:D
06-06-2009, 10:40 AM
Migi06

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

I forgot to mention this: The Mo-Ra comes with spacers and screws for mounting it to the side-panel of a case. It's also wide enough to just stand on it's own.

Could Push&Pull done with Mora 2 core and with 2 fan faceplates?(not pro, because you cant mount another one so well)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

Just out of curiosity: Where do you get that estimate from?
Generally, a 140 mm fan can be potentially more noisy than a 120 mm fan because it's pushing more air at identical rpm. Below a certain threshhold though, rpm makes no audiable difference in a quality fan, i.e.

I cant know exact number.. its more guess than fact, just like comparing 80mm fan to 92mm or 120mm fan (need to compare same manufacture fan). Bigger fan make more noise in same rpm because its produce a lot more airflow wich will make "hummm" effect.
80mm Nexus(19 dBA@1m: 1110 RPM :15 CFM) vs 120mm Nexus(22 dBA@1m: 1080 RPM: 29 CFM). Found in SPCR site.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

I wouldn't be able to tell if it's doing 300rpm or 500rpm from the distance I'm usually away from my fans.

You are right 300rpm vs 500rpm is too hard to hear (because they are death silent)
Its like above 600rpm at 120mm fans when they come audible..

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

All I'm trying to say is: I guess the noise-level relations between fan formats are pretty complex.

Like you said there are many things what affect to noise.. Bearings, rpm, horizontal/vertical, wing type, fan count, yourself (everyone can't hear same noises) etc.. also sound can change comparing free air moving fan vs Radiator fan or insade case vs outside of the case..
06-06-2009, 10:51 AM
HESmelaugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinghong1970

ok, so according to your chart, you have temps for air in and air out as well as temps for water in and water out...

which figures do you use for the temp difference of "Water -Air" ?

Water = Average of water in and water out
Air = Air in

Quote:

as for estimation of your heatload, where and how?

I have a watt-meter connected to the heaters and I simply write down the value it shows once every five minutes. This is a bit of a rough method, of course, but the fluctuations in this value are very gradual so I think I still get a fair average like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migi06

Could Push&Pull done with Mora 2 core and with 2 fan faceplates?(not pro, because you cant mount another one so well)

I'm sure it could be done somehow. For example, you could also connect all of the fans to each other, resulting in a "wall of fans" that you could then attach to a Mo-Ra on either side quite easily. Maybe some DIY mounting or even just cable-ties and duct-tape. :p:

Concerning fan-noise: Thanks for the quote from spcr. I'd almost forgotten about that site.
Ultimately, I think the issue of noise is a very sensitive one, like you describe. So far, I favour leaving the noise factor completely out of my testing. Makes my life a lot easier. :)
06-06-2009, 10:57 AM
kinghong1970

thank you very much for your patience in helping me understand this...

it's greatly appreciated...
06-06-2009, 11:24 AM
Martinm210

Any chance you can convert these C/W charts over to Heat dissipated at 10C or 5C?

It's just 10/(C/W), and would probably be helpful for alot of folks.
06-06-2009, 12:35 PM
NaeKuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

Each test run lasts 35 minutes, 25 minutes are warm up and the data from the last 10 minutes is all averaged out.

Hes i hate to do this to ya... but i dont think you had enough warmup time.. Expecially on those large rads...

Courtesy of martin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

The problem with delta T testing I see is how long it can take to stabilize the run at high deltas and high heat loads with large volumes. I'm seeing some tests taking over 90 minutes to stabilize.

So much for production testing..lol!..:eek:..:D
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4817/samplerun.png

Sorry bro, you need 90 min on average, or your just testing inital hold capacity and not disapation. You need a much longer warm up sequence...

Skinnee had simular results when dealing with full copper rads.. Your warm up time is just too small.

and as u guys can see its a logrithmic at the start so you cant do a straight liner eq.
06-06-2009, 01:41 PM
Waterlogged

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

I currently don't have any rad twice anymore. I sold/gave away the extra ones from the sandwich-testing.

But I could maybe throw the RX480 and RX360 together in a loop. They have practically identical restriction, it seems.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure almost no one misunderstands the Mo-Ra, by the way. The reason it is popular with those who it is popular with is that it offers a tidy package with tons of cooling power at low fan speeds. If you aren't obsessed with flowrates and as-low-as-possible temperatures and are more focused on as-low-as-possible noise levels, a Mo-Ra is a great radiator. It's a lot less bother than installing three separate rads and it's also cheaper than three good rads.

Those 2 RX's would suffice for the testing I have in mind. :up:

The thing is, you don't need 3 "good" rads to equal or best the MO-RA, all you'd really need is 2, at least...that's my thinking. ;)
06-06-2009, 02:09 PM
HESmelaugh

I pretested the necessary time-frame for repeatable results. For whatever reason, I'm not seeing anything similar to the graphs shown above.

I should mention though, that there are two types of temperature courses in my testing procedure: The first run starts with the lowest fan speeds and the water warms up from ambient. I pre-warm the water a little bit, even though it's probably not necessary. So i start the heater, shut it off again after a few minutes, start the logging software and start the heater again. This is a temperature log picked out and just plotted quickly in Excel, showing the entire 35 minutes of a test-run:

http://www.abload.de/img/graph100xk.jpg

After that, the water never completely cools down between test runs, I unplug the heater, adjust fan speeds to the next higher step and then start the heating again. I guess I could also just leave the heater running. Anyway, this means that for all but the first test run, the water is cooling down from what it was at lower fan speeds to a new equilibrium at higher fan speeds. This is such a curve, also picked out of the logs. It shows the change from 400rpm to 800rpm:

http://www.abload.de/img/graph2p8dt.jpg

So, as you can see, I really don't see this gradual temperature change over a long period of time. The temps seem to reach a certain level after just a few minutes and then just stick to that.

I'm pretty sure I posted the results from 35 min vs 60 min test runs in my setup somewhere in these forums. Can't find it anymore, though.

EDIT @Waterlogged: That might be true. Two rads like the RX might outdo or match a Mo-Ra.
06-06-2009, 02:49 PM
dsumanik

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

Sorry bro, you need 90 min on average, or your just testing inital hold capacity and not disapation. You need a much longer warm up sequence...

I think what you have to do when looking at this data is simply eat it with a grain of salt from a consumer perspective, not a scientific one. Logically you can simply think, if I plug this rad/fan combo into any given loop, it affects temperatures as so.

Which is what his data gives us, how this rad/fan combo will affect a loop, not efficiency or exact performance. The consumer can then rationalize the cost vs.benefits.

The data as tested cannot define the actual performance winner of these rads because of the fan sizes (as he stated in the introduction of his post)

Specifically looking at the specs of the fans he selected:

140mm 1500 RPM 82.8 CFM
120mm 1900 RPM 75.0 CFM

At full voltage a 400 RPM defecit on the 140mm Has a 7.8 CFM advantage. I would wager that the higher RPMS give better static pressure on the 120mm.

So, how can we possibly compare these radiator based on RPM's?

Perhaps RPM should be thrown out of radiator testing when trying to discover actual dissipation for different sized rads. If all the rads are 120's, or 140's you can get away with it because the initial airflow is constant...but when you compare different formats the airflow needs to be controlled somehow, otherwise the results will skew. So if we calculate C/W with different sized rads against RPM, the data only gives us a trend as to how the radiator is best suited (hi or low speed fan), which is still very useful, but for actual dissipation the temps need to be plotted VS airflow in my opinion...at least if they are going to be on the same graph.

Maybe a single large fan directing a known quantity of air through a shroud with a fixed size opening (i.e a 100x100 square) would be a better way to test dissipation. The recorded temps would be a result of constant static pressure and airflow for a given surface area, call it potential dissipation/inch or something. You could then multiply by surface area to get a decent estimate. Leave the flowrates uncontrolled so this characteristic of the rad is factored in as well.

Another option... maybe in order to compare a 120mm rad vs 140mm rad you need to consider 120mm and 140mm fans with airflow specs that converge over an RPM range, this wouldn't provide similar static pressure, but at lease would eliminate one more variable.

maybe one day martin can do some 140mm fan testing and we can identify the best fans to mate with a 120 vs 140 rad comparison
06-06-2009, 03:29 PM
Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsumanik

I think what you have to do when looking at this data is simply eat it with a grain of salt from a consumer perspective, not a scientific one. Logically you can simply think, if I plug this rad/fan combo into any given loop, it affects temperatures as so.

Which is what his data gives us, how this rad/fan combo will affect a loop, not efficiency or exact performance. The consumer can then rationalize the cost vs.benefits.

The data as tested cannot define the actual performance winner of these rads because of the fan sizes (as he stated in the introduction of his post)

Specifically looking at the specs of the fans he selected:

140mm 1500 RPM 82.8 CFM
120mm 1900 RPM 75.0 CFM

At full voltage a 400 RPM defecit on the 140mm Has a 7.8 CFM advantage. I would wager that the higher RPMS give better static pressure on the 120mm.

So, how can we possibly compare these radiator based on RPM's?

Perhaps RPM should be thrown out of radiator testing when trying to discover actual dissipation for different sized rads. If all the rads are 120's, or 140's you can get away with it because the initial airflow is constant...but when you compare different formats the airflow needs to be controlled somehow, otherwise the results will skew. So if we calculate C/W with different sized rads against RPM, the data only gives us a trend as to how the radiator is best suited (hi or low speed fan), which is still very useful, but for actual dissipation the temps need to be plotted VS airflow in my opinion...at least if they are going to be on the same graph.

Maybe a single large fan directing a known quantity of air through a shroud with a fixed size opening (i.e a 100x100 square) would be a better way to test dissipation. The recorded temps would be a result of constant static pressure and airflow for a given surface area, call it potential dissipation/inch or something. You could then multiply by surface area to get a decent estimate. Leave the flowrates uncontrolled so this characteristic of the rad is factored in as well.

Another option... maybe in order to compare a 120mm rad vs 140mm rad you need to consider 120mm and 140mm fans with airflow specs that converge over an RPM range, this wouldn't provide similar static pressure, but at lease would eliminate one more variable.

maybe one day martin can do some 140mm fan testing and we can identify the best fans to mate with a 120 vs 140 rad comparison

I agree with you when saying you need to take these tests with a grain of salt. However, I look at these tests hoping that I would get an idea of how they might perform if I bought one. If those tests didn't reflect the actual heat dissipation due to limited testing duration, then the accuracy could be quite different.
06-06-2009, 03:43 PM
NaeKuh

HES's graph looks good...

You must have a very small loop. And i mean a TINY loop. :P

But on my fesser's which are pure copper, i noticed the warnup time being a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:...
06-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Snowman89

Nice review! I have a gts 240 and it's not even considerd good and i must say im very happy with it. With 2fans running 1500ish rpm and a gtx 260 65nm and a phenom II 940 @ 3.4ghz my gpu is doing full load of 50ish in games, cpu about same temp.
06-06-2009, 05:19 PM
silverphoenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

Awesome work...man you have been busy!!

I'm suprised the Mo-Ra is so restrictive, I would have never guessed it would even be more restrictive than a GTS. It must have some very thin tubes or something causing that.

Anyhow, good to know in the 120 vs 140mm fans on the monsta, I suspected 140's are really needed to make full use of it's 140mm factor. Time to go order some, I think I'll go with the Koolance fans since they go up to 1700RPM.

it's tubes are round but It is in essence a ton of passes which equates to alot of 180 degree turns. I'm absolutely surprised by the GTS420 in push pull.
06-06-2009, 05:35 PM
quattro_

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverphoenix

. I'm absolutely surprised by the GTS420 in push pull.

same here im thinking of getting one and use S-Flex F's push pull .
06-06-2009, 05:48 PM
RCG_Bex

Nice review. I'd of like to have seen the new Koolance 480's thrown in there seeing as how they're a fair abit skinnier than most 480's I see.

I don't think I've ever actually read a review for my TFC480 either! But I agree with Naekuh, heatup times are longer than my Swiftech.

~Bex
06-06-2009, 06:10 PM
Martinm210

Yeah, I think heat up times are primarily a factor of water volume in the loop and the delta between tests. My particular setup is huge, I have about a 1 gallon reservoir that serves to handle my heaters, then the large radiator, and I also have a large flow meter and a large gate valve, large tubing...etc. In the end I have over a full gallon in my test loop which has an incredible ability to store heat. Those inline heaters with little/no volume are a real benefit to reducing testing time.
06-06-2009, 06:10 PM
BringerOdeath

I am thinking about about changing my GTX480 and GTX240 in to RX480 and GTX240.....What do you guys think? Or should i go for 240mm rads.....
06-06-2009, 06:20 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

This is a temperature log picked out and just plotted quickly in Excel, showing the entire 35 minutes of a test-run:
http://www.abload.de/img/graph100xk.jpg

I thought the BigNG sensors were only good to .5C?

How often does it record/log (What does 339) represent?

And how the heck are you keeping your ambient that flat. No matter how hard I try, mine will slowly go up and down just a bit.

And one more stupid question of mine. How are you fixing RPM at exactly 400, 800, RPM etc.? Is that something the BigNG can do for you, if so..that's pretty handy. I've tried setting an RPM, but it varies slightly as the fans warm up and as system voltage fluctuates. I ended up giving up and just let the crystalfontz log the RPM every second and average the end result over the test.

The graph looks good, I can only wish mine would get stable that fast..:up:
06-07-2009, 01:24 AM
HESmelaugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

HES's graph looks good...

You must have a very small loop. And i mean a TINY loop. :P

But on my fesser's which are pure copper, i noticed the warnup time being a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:...

That's actually an impotant point: I have my loop as short as possible. I also make sure that the EK X-Res on the pump is never filled to the top. Silly, but true. :p
So I have the absolute minimum of water in my loop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

I thought the BigNG sensors were only good to .5C?

How often does it record/log (What does 339) represent?

And how the heck are you keeping your ambient that flat. No matter how hard I try, mine will slowly go up and down just a bit.

And one more stupid question of mine. How are you fixing RPM at exactly 400, 800, RPM etc.? Is that something the BigNG can do for you, if so..that's pretty handy. I've tried setting an RPM, but it varies slightly as the fans warm up and as system voltage fluctuates. I ended up giving up and just let the crystalfontz log the RPM every second and average the end result over the test.

The graph looks good, I can only wish mine would get stable that fast..:up:

Some very crucial points here, that aren't apparent just from plucking the data out of Excel.

Let me start with the fans: Unfortunately i can't fix fan speeds. They do fluctuate and I can't log the rpm. The reason for this is that the bigNG does not tell you the actual fan speeds at all. As far as I can tell, it simply checks the rpm once and then gives you calculated numbers on what the fan speeds should be at the voltage you set. This is why I actually use two Kaze Masters to monitor fan speeds. I warm the fans up for about ten minutes and then set them as closely to the target speed as I can i.e. fluctuating around the target speed. This is a source of impresicion in my testing. I'm sure I mentioned this in my first radiator review(s), but I should add this info to the testing method bit of the new review as well.

Water-Temp: The plot shows all four probes averaged out. It's correct that the bigNG has a resolution of .5°.

I made a new graph and put a little more effort into it, this time. :cool:
Here is the raw data from the water and air in probes:

http://www.abload.de/img/logujw0.jpg

It's logged in 5-sec-intervals. The air temperatures fluctuate by +/-.5 degrees for the entire range of the data that I average out for my results. I didn't include the air out temps because those are rubbish in my test setup...
06-07-2009, 10:18 AM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

That's actually an impotant point: I have my loop as short as possible. I also make sure that the EK X-Res on the pump is never filled to the top. Silly, but true. :p
So I have the absolute minimum of water in my loop.

Some very crucial points here, that aren't apparent just from plucking the data out of Excel.

Let me start with the fans: Unfortunately i can't fix fan speeds. They do fluctuate and I can't log the rpm. The reason for this is that the bigNG does not tell you the actual fan speeds at all. As far as I can tell, it simply checks the rpm once and then gives you calculated numbers on what the fan speeds should be at the voltage you set. This is why I actually use two Kaze Masters to monitor fan speeds. I warm the fans up for about ten minutes and then set them as closely to the target speed as I can i.e. fluctuating around the target speed. This is a source of impresicion in my testing. I'm sure I mentioned this in my first radiator review(s), but I should add this info to the testing method bit of the new review as well.

Water-Temp: The plot shows all four probes averaged out. It's correct that the bigNG has a resolution of .5°.

I made a new graph and put a little more effort into it, this time. :cool:
Here is the raw data from the water and air in probes:

http://www.abload.de/img/logujw0.jpg

It's logged in 5-sec-intervals. The air temperatures fluctuate by +/-.5 degrees for the entire range of the data that I average out for my results. I didn't include the air out temps because those are rubbish in my test setup...

Very nice!

Now that I go back and look at some recent runs, it does appear RPM is fairly stable, I think it all depends on the fan controller. In some of my earlier testing I was using a Sunbeam controller to set voltage, and RPM varied +- 30RPM or more, but I think it was the controller. In my recent testing, I've been using my variable PSU to set RPM and it's holding RPM spot on with 5RPM or so. I decide with this round to fix RPM at certain voltages, but it really doesn't matter how it's done if you're generating a trendline.

.5C isn't very good with just one sensor, but you've got 2 on the in and 2 on the out, so the 4 sensors total helps improve that resolution alot..:up:

Awesome job on this. My only recommendation would be to compare either w/c which is heat dissipated per degree celcius, or compare something like a heat dissipate for a 10C delta which is probably more standard.

I find that comparing C/W doesn't appropriately scale the true performance, particularly at Higher RPM. It gives you the impression that the differences in higher RPM regions are very small and insignificant, but they are not.

Give it a try, you'll see what I mean. You have all the data, just copy another column in there and divide 10 by C/W:up:
06-07-2009, 10:51 AM
Brodholm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

AFAIK, they only had problems with the early RX360. I never read about problems with the RX480.
Though it's been stated that they will switch to a matte finish and non-threaded fan holes - something I'm not terribly enthusiastic about.

OK, thanks. Why does they go with that new standard? Does it give any improvements or something? I know the thermochill have a black matt finish also. Could this have something to do with XSPC owning some of thermochill?

Quote:

- Black Matt Finish
- Copper Tubes and Fins
- 3 rows of 13mm by 2mm Tubes
- Sub 8fpi (fins per inch)
- G1/4" Ports
- 6-32 Case and Fan Screws

Supplied with mounting screws

The first version of the RX radiator has a gloss black finish and M4 Screws, version 2 spec is listed above
06-07-2009, 11:51 AM
skinnee

Actually, I think the screw change is from testers griping about the M4 screws. ;)
06-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Brodholm

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinnee

Actually, I think the screw change is from testers griping about the M4 screws. ;)

Well thats to bad, I like M4 :\

What about the color?
06-07-2009, 12:39 PM
HESmelaugh

I had some time to tinker around with the data again and tried my hand at a "watts dissipated" graph:

http://www.abload.de/img/10cg7dw.jpg

What has me worried about this is that it scatters my data points all over the place.

It would be nice to get more precision here. I think the graphs above show that longer load times wouldn't help me here. High-precision thermal probes of some type would be very nice, but they won't do much good if I can't hook them up to the PC to have them log their readings somehow. Any suggestions?
I was considering a Crystalfontz a while back, btw. The reason I didn't go for it is because while it has higher resolution than .5°, it's thermal probes have a precision of only .5°. So it was either the bigNG (very precise digital probes, but only .5° resolution) or the Fontz (high reolution, .5° precision probes). Seems to me that neither is better than the other...

@posts above: What the hell is wrong with M4 screws? How could threadless holes possibly be better than M4?
06-07-2009, 01:22 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

I had some time to tinker around with the data again and tried my hand at a "watts dissipated" graph:

http://www.abload.de/img/10cg7dw.jpg

What has me worried about this is that it scatters my data points all over the place.

It would be nice to get more precision here. I think the graphs above show that longer load times wouldn't help me here. High-precision thermal probes of some type would be very nice, but they won't do much good if I can't hook them up to the PC to have them log their readings somehow. Any suggestions?
I was considering a Crystalfontz a while back, btw. The reason I didn't go for it is because while it has higher resolution than .5°, it's thermal probes have a precision of only .5°. So it was either the bigNG (very precise digital probes, but only .5° resolution) or the Fontz (high reolution, .5° precision probes). Seems to me that neither is better than the other...

@posts above: What the hell is wrong with M4 screws? How could threadless holes possibly be better than M4?

Very nice!

Here is the pdf of the Dallas sensors, at 20-40C, the absolute accuracy mean error is only -0.2C, but I believe they specify the absolute accuracy in terms of 3 standard deviations from 0-70C. The graph in the chart for the sensors notes that 3 standard deviations of error is worth about .25C, so two standard deviations (68%) would be around .17C which would capture 68% of readings. This seems about right from my experiments with multiple water sensors too...roughly .2C relative accuracy or better. That's pretty good for such a cheap instrument. Check out the tools the coolingmasters guys were using to get down to .01C, some of their temp monitors cost $5,000 just for the monitor:eek: This makes me very happy with my $50 Crystalfontz getting down to .2C...add multiple sensors and that gets even better..:D

http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/DS18B20.pdf

The real beauty of the CF is the ability to run 32 temp channels and 4 RPM channels at a time. You could easily make a testing rig with 4 air in per fan and several water sensors if you wanted to. The sensors do cost about $5 a pop though, so that can get expensive relatively quick. I'm only utilizing about 1/3rd of what it can do. I think when it comes to air...you can probably never have too many sensors, preferably they all need to be fixed in exactly the same location for each radiator too. I find that my air out readings don't seem very accurate and I think it's partially due to different fans, but also due to the manual placement of the sensors. I probably should have rigged up some sort of outlet shroud to keep the location consistent every time. Oh well, I'm not using those for any calcs, so I've given up on them for anything more than information.

Anyhow, I love the heat dissipated chart, very nice!:up:

It's really interesting to see the push/pull charts in comparison too. The GTXs really like push/pull as you would expect for their high density:yepp:
06-07-2009, 11:18 PM
scamps

Great as always, Shane! :up:
06-08-2009, 02:00 AM
Jah

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

@posts above: What the hell is wrong with M4 screws? How could threadless holes possibly be better than M4?

Well I think if you live in some backward country, not using SI units, that stick to some kind of inch system you are screwed ;)

Excellent testing tnx.
06-08-2009, 03:18 AM
silverphoenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jah

Well I think if you live in some backward country, not using SI units, that stick to some kind of inch system you are screwed ;)

Excellent testing tnx.

it's kind of weird because I can find M4 screws here in the states although sourcing ones long enough for 38mm fans are hard locally and usually have to be ordered online.

although 6-32 screws can be interchangeable with M3.5 for short threading.
06-08-2009, 06:53 AM
Mech0z

Would really like to see the Koolancer 480 with push pull, should do fairly well with 30fpi at high rpm and be as thin as a thick (PA, RX, TFC) rad with only push. Hope you can get that HES :)
06-08-2009, 07:25 AM
HESmelaugh

@Martin: Oh, now you're just tempting me to get a CrystalFontz anyway... ;)
Thanks for the info on those probes.

Now I really need to decide whether I'll invest in a CF or a Manometer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scamps

Great as always, Shane! :up:

Thanks. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mech0z

Would really like to see the Koolancer 480 with push pull, should do fairly well with 30fpi at high rpm and be as thin as a thick (PA, RX, TFC) rad with only push. Hope you can get that HES :)

Yeah, I'd love to test that. Koolance have already told me that they won't provide a radiator for my testing, though. I'll try to get one some other way, but I can't promise anything.
08-16-2009, 11:16 PM
Arthur

Quote:

Originally Posted by bentleya

Shane it would of been nice to see the TFC 480 In there, As not many people test Them, Not sure if it because you can't get TFC via aqua tuning, where you work.

But it will be nice to see the comparison between this and martins, to see how different the results are.

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

Agreed on both points. ;)
Just like with the 360s, I would obviously love to get my hands on a TFC 480. I've only heard good things about those rads and it would be great to see how they stack up agains the ones I've tested so far.

The problem is that not only don't I get samples from TFC, their products are actually available nowhere in Switzerland...
If they were, I'd just buy one. But if I have to buy one and pay for the rad, the international shipping and taxes (we pay lots of taxes here, for stuff that crosses the border), I'm paying ridiculous amounts of money for just a radiator...

I understand your point well. :yepp: I spoke the Feser CEO on July and he mentioned to me what they are out of stock for TFC Quad 480 in US for a while at that time. They started to produce them again and then they are in all stock now. Even Frozen CPU sold minimum 20xTFC QUAD 480s in a month, thats pretty impressive number to retailer for a month. :eek:

I also thought about get two of them but I changed my mind for a while because of their expensive cost to me. I am not living in US too and shipping charges about $100~$150 around to me (two of them). For now I got 2x Thermochill PA120.3 in my hands and I suppose I'll go for them for a while. :shakes:

If I lived in Switzerland and I had a TFC QUAD 480, I would love to give you my rad for your test temporarly of course. :up: I can imagine what you can have hard times to get your test products. You impressing me alot with your hard efforts mate. Please you keep up the good works. :up: :up:

Thanks for everything mate,
Arthur

Note to @HESmelaugh: You can add the Thermochill PA120.3 in your test so many people who using the old Thermochills like me can know their limits on it LOL. ;)
08-19-2009, 07:22 AM
iipe

Quote:

Originally Posted by BringerOdeath

Wow, that Mo-ra 2 is pretty Amazing, I just don't know how I would mount that....

Double HUGE! :)
http://www.aijaa.com/img/t/00341/4708376.t.jpg
08-19-2009, 09:11 AM
rambler358

Quote:

Originally Posted by iipe

Double HUGE! :)
http://www.aijaa.com/img/t/00341/4708376.t.jpg

No rad fans for those? :confused:
08-19-2009, 10:01 AM
iipe

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler358

No rad fans for those? :confused:

Why? There is no need to! :D
08-19-2009, 12:00 PM
HESmelaugh

Nice setup, iipe! :)