Ok, I'm Chilled. I'm Chilled. Relax....56K Warning!

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06-05-2009, 05:28 AM
Naja002

Ok, I'm Chilled. I'm Chilled. Relax....56K Warning!

Well, I've had a lot of fun with my other projects, but I realized a while back that a chiller would probably be my best bet all the way around. So, after doing the car rad(s)--indoor/outdoor, geothermal, bongs and HVC....I finally decided to do the chiller-thing. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ies/tongue.gif Of course, the chiller scraps everything else...except the indoor rad--I can still use that for winter heat. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

I started surfing around checking out this years A/Cs, rechecking on coolers, etc. I wanted one of the Coleman 150qt. 5-day coolers....but I ended up going with an Igloo Polar 120qt., because of price and availability. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif Still a good cooler, but the Coleman 5-day's (Extreme/Marine) reviews are outstanding! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ilies/yepp.gif

Anyway, I ran into a snag with the window that I had always intended to mount the A/C in (yeah, I've been thinking about this for a long time)--most/many of the smaller A/Cs require a minimum 14" window opening (height), but there are a few that don't. In the end though it didn't matter, because I said screw the window, I'll pull the rads and reverse the fans and blow some of the heat out the window. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ilies/rotf.gif

So, while still trying to talk myself out of this for at least a while longer ( http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...lies/rofl2.gif )--I started surfing craiglist. I found a small Frigidaire 5KBTU locally for $50. Said: "Screw it". Picked up the cooler. Picked up the A/C. So, this was done....just a little assembly required...http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...es/biggrin.gif

So, this is what I've come up with:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09003.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09027.jpg

Plumbing coming out of the chiller headed toward the PCs:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09038.jpg

Return to the chiller:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09032.jpg

I really wanted electronic thermostat/controls and "Energy Saver", but I would have had to buy a new A/C, so that would have about doubled the cost.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09017.jpg

I cut a small opening in the lid for the wires, etc to pass through:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09020.jpg

Filled it with weather stripping foam just to help prevent the transfer of air:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09076.jpg

Marked my spot for when I close the lid:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09086.jpg

Pix of the guts:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09055.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09065.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09073.jpg

I added a small 11w 200gph pump to help circulation inside the cooler. It definitely helps even out temps:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09069.jpg

2 temp probes side-by-side:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09062.jpg

These are the low end temps that I have it set for--the compressor kicks on:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09050.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09105.jpg

And then kicks off at:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09110.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09115.jpg

I set this up in the morning and it ran fine all day. No problems whatsoever. About 20 hrs later--I had alarms going off. I checked the coolant temp=116F/46C. I'm not 100% sure what the cause of it was, but I think and guessed that it was the temp probe. I'm assuming that the part exposed to the outside of the cooler was effected by the low ambient temps--so the compressor didn't kick on. So, I put some tubing over the probe length to help it read the temp inside the cooler only. Seems to have worked:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09080.jpg
I haven't had any problems since....:up:

When the compressor is off the unit uses 47-48w for the fan motor. When the compressor is running it uses right at:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-6-5-09094.jpg

I took some on/off cycle times. The off cycle averaged 11min 55sec and the on cycle averaged 12min 12secs. So, for me that's close enough to say that it's going to run ~50% of the time. Problem is: that's ~5 cycles every 2 hours or 60 cycles/day. Seems like a bit much. So, I added 6 more gals of water. Hopefully that will help it cycle just a bit less. I encountered a small leak toward the top of the return bulkhead fitting. So, before I can add anymore (water or anti-freeze) I am going to have to remove a bit of the fluid and tighten that sucker up a bit more. Once it's sealed properly I can add quite a bit more fluid. Physics says that there isn't much I can do about the 50% run time. But it also says that more fluid mass should reduce the number of cycles/day. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/sasmokin.gif

Here's a 38sec video showing the circulation and return flow:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ler-6-5-09.jpg

No, I'm not interested in sub-zero, etc. I'm sub-ambient now....just above the dewpoint<--worst case. Hoping I stay just above the dewpoint. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ies/tongue.gif

Cost:

A/C--$50
Cooler--$57
Anti-freeze--$77
I had everything else.

Other then a few very minor issues....I really didn't have any problems setting this up. My estimate is that it should cost ~$20.29/month to run this, so:

Looks like I'm ready for summer!

ApogeeGT water blocks:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...41i76-5-09.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...94506-5-09.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...600-6-5-09.jpg

Goes from the chiller/pvc to this manifold and then to the PCs:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...IMG_0002_1.jpg

Crunchin' Boinc: WCG + GpuGrid:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...i7PC5-3-09.jpg

Index of prior Projects:

Yes, Another Car Radiator Thread....Major 56K Warning!

Bong! Bong! Bong! --56K Warning!

Horizontal Volenti Cooler.....56K Warning!

The Hole…Geothermal Loop…56K Warning!
06-05-2009, 12:31 PM
antiacid

this looks fun!
I have a question to you, considering you have a lot of experience with those "alternative" cooling methods: What would you say was your most quiet setup? How would you modify your best performing cooling system to make it more quiet and at what cost?
06-05-2009, 09:23 PM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by antiacid

this looks fun!
I have a question to you, considering you have a lot of experience with those "alternative" cooling methods: What would you say was your most quiet setup? How would you modify your best performing cooling system to make it more quiet and at what cost?

Honestly, that's a pretty difficult question to answer. For myself--they are all pretty quiet considering that the heart of the cooling system is out in another building. :p: What I would focus on is setting up my rigs differently, because the fans in here are actually pretty loud--it sounds like a server room in here. :D Some of that is the 2 air conditioners, some of it is the fans blowing under the shelf into the area where the PSUs and HDs are....:up: I have 14x 80mm fans running full volt, 5x 120mm, 2x clip-on fans, 2x car rad fans @ 5v and 2 air conditioners. :rofl: That's including the old Koolance case setup and the "indoor rad".

For someone else--it's much more difficult to answer. If all of the resources are available--and quiet is the only goal.....then it would have to be the Bongs and/or HVC. They can be setup to be almost silent. They can go well below ambient. But there are trade offs like disinfection. :up: But again: If All the resources are available--I would just setup a chiller in another building--preferably with the A/C in a window so all of the heat pumps directly outside. Disinfection is a minor issue. Cooling the heat produced is non-existent. You can maintain around ambient, below ambient, sub-zero. $20-30/month is affordable for most people, I would think. :shrug:

I've known for quite a while that I was going to wind up with this chiller. But the other setups were some pretty cool stuff and it's kind of difficult to just scrap it all in one fell swoop. :up: But that's what I've done. It's all been a lot of fun. A lot of learning. A lot of sharing. I've copied my logs onto other forums, so if any one forum goes down for the count.....the heart of the info should be around for the foreseeable future.

But if quiet is the only rule: It would definitely be the Bongs and/or HVC....:up:

Just a quick update:

I fiddled with the 1 small leak some. Seems that I've managed to get it stopped.....or 99.9% stopped. Not sure yet. But I've dealt with aquariums, etc for many years and know that this tiny leak--can be a royal PITA! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif But I'll get it fixed one way or the other. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif
Adding the 6 gal of water seems to have altered the on/off cycling to ~20mins or 3x/2hrs or 36x/day. Once the small leak is fixed with certainty--I plan to add 2 more gals of water and 2 more gals of anti-freeze....bringing the total to ~24 gals. Hopefully that will drop the cycling to every 30mins or 24x/day. Still a lot in my book, but without adding another cooler--that's about as good as it's going to get! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

Covering the temp probe with tubing seems to have done the trick--no issues since...http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif
06-05-2009, 10:41 PM
antiacid

I fell on a link to a "bong lovers" club from one of your threads... This looks like a fun project. I think I'll take it up right away and see how it works out!

I wonder what kind of volume of water is evaporated in a 24 hours period or in an 8 hours period? I'm not sure I'll be able to use an auto-level mechanism on my test bong but I'm sure I could manage to get a very large reservoir or something...
06-05-2009, 11:03 PM
Naja002

The amount of water evaporated is going to be effected by many different things like: water temp v. ambient temp, relative humidity and so on. If you put your pump as low as possible in the res it will offer more headway against evaporation. Hooking up to the plumbing for a sink, shower, toilet, washer, etc is not difficult to do. One small hole through a wall can be all that's really needed to run a line of 1/4" ID ice maker tubing to a float valve. Odds are you have incoming water in the next room....there's the source. Holes through drywall are easily fixed. :up:

There are ways to setup a 2-liter bottle, gallon jug, 5gal bucket for short-term auto-refill.....
06-05-2009, 11:32 PM
eBoy0

I had my chiller setup similarly, boy did it rattle like crazy resting on that 2x4.
06-06-2009, 03:40 PM
railmeat

nice setup man.

im just curiuos tho at your 920 @ 4.1 @ 68c,that does not sound all that good,no offense.but ppl can get that on regular water i suppose.i dunno??is that screenshot with the cpu loaded(primed,occt in the background?) i missed somewere.or is that good for a 920 at 4.1 on chilled water???.

and why are your volts that hi?they needed that hi?
guy below in the link i pasted is it D0 at 4.0Ghz (1.3v vcore)
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

at intel specsheet Thermal Specification on 920

if u clik the link and clik thermal specification it says 67.9 for 920,s????
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...x?sSpec=SLBCH#
and your at 68 core 1 idle?

"Thermal Specification: The thermal specification shown is the maximum case temperature at the maximum Thermal Design Power (TDP) value for that processor. It is measured at the geometric center on the topside of the processor integrated heat spreader. For processors without integrated heat spreaders such as mobile processors, the thermal specification is referred to as the junction temperature (Tj). The maximum junction temperature is defined by an activation of the processor Intel® Thermal Monitor. The Intel Thermal Monitor’s automatic mode is used to indicate that the maximum TJ has been reached"

read this I7 920 @ 4.0ghz temps

"I have a D0 at 4.0Ghz (1.3v vcore) and I hit just over that running OCCT with a large dataset, high priority, hyperthreading on. I max at about 86C in OCCT, Coretemp reads it at 83C. Idle I'm around 53-55C OCCT, Coretemp reads it at 50-53C." read link below

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

your Yes, Another Car Radiator Thread IS AMAZING,HAHAHA!!!!:up::D
06-06-2009, 09:57 PM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by eBoy0

I had my chiller setup similarly, boy did it rattle like crazy resting on that 2x4.

It's really not all that loud considering that it's a low end air conditioner. There is a slight rattle when the compressor is on, but it's nothing obnoxious. :up: The fan runs 24/7, and when I go out there I pretty much have to look at the killawatt to tell/verify that the compressor is running....not just the fan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by railmeat

nice setup man.

im just curiuos tho at your 920 @ 4.1 @ 68c,that does not sound all that good,no offense.but ppl can get that on regular water i suppose.i dunno??is that screenshot with the cpu loaded(primed,occt in the background?) i missed somewere.or is that good for a 920 at 4.1 on chilled water???.

and why are your volts that hi?they needed that hi?
guy below in the link i pasted is it D0 at 4.0Ghz (1.3v vcore)
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Just to point out: I'm not sub-zero, I am sub-ambient. Most folks go sub-zero with a chiller, so others see "chiller" and automatically think "sub-zero". I'm currently running water that is 63-68F/17-20C.

I think the main reasons for the temps and volts are:

1) I'm still running on an ApogeeGT Water Block. It's a bit out-dated, but I picked up a couple of holddown plates a few months back from Duniek. Trust me: A heatkiller Cu would drop that temp a bit. But with 3 rigs on the same WCing system--I have to be aware of block flow/restrictions. Mixing and matching blocks can wreak all kinds of havoc. :up:

2) It's a C0/C1, not a DO. So, it doesn't OC as well at the same volts.

3) It was a fairly new OC and could still use some "tweaking". :yepp: In the past: I was at 4.0 for a short while (few days). Ran 3.8 for 2-3weeks until I knew summer temps where going to force me to lower the OC for the summer. So, I moved it down to 3.4 for a week or so until I got this chiller up and running. Then I went back to 4.0, and then up to 4.1. Checked out 4.2+ and decided that 4.1 was good enough....at least for now. :up: I'm not an OCer. I'm not a Bencher. I'm a Cruncher (Boinc: WCG + GpuGrid) that stumbles along in the OCing world. :p: That said:

4) The volts are set at 1.38 (?). But go up to the 1.424 shown when under load. Truth is: If I could remember, or even knew, what half of the bios settings did....I would do a bit better. I'm not totally clueless, but I could definitely use some "growth" in that area. :yepp: From what I have gathered from looking around 1.36-1.39 is not unreasonable for 4.0 C0/C1. Maybe I'm wrong.....:shrug:

5) This i7 is a 24/7 cruncher and my everyday rig. I prefer (usually) a bit more voltage so things are "snappy" and respond well. I don't like limping along on the lowest voltage that I can get by with. :up: Why it moves itself from 1.38 to 1.424 under load--I don't know. But the 1.424 was the same at 4.2+......:shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by railmeat

at intel specsheet Thermal Specification on 920

if u clik the link and clik thermal specification it says 67.9 for 920,s????
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...x?sSpec=SLBCH#
and your at 68 core 1 idle?

"Thermal Specification: The thermal specification shown is the maximum case temperature at the maximum Thermal Design Power (TDP) value for that processor. It is measured at the geometric center on the topside of the processor integrated heat spreader. For processors without integrated heat spreaders such as mobile processors, the thermal specification is referred to as the junction temperature (Tj). The maximum junction temperature is defined by an activation of the processor Intel® Thermal Monitor. The Intel Thermal Monitor’s automatic mode is used to indicate that the maximum TJ has been reached"

Well, that confuses me. :p: I've always thought that the thermal specification would be like the high-end "safe" temp...or limit. But my understanding is that 90C is the new 70C (1366 v 775), and that quote seems to have something to do with: Intel Thermal Monitor’s automatic mode. The whole purpose of this chiller is to maintain what I consider a reasonable OC at a reasonable temp (70C or below) 24/7 throughout the summer. So, maybe somebody would care to breakdown what that actually means for me? :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by railmeat

read this I7 920 @ 4.0ghz temps

"I have a D0 at 4.0Ghz (1.3v vcore) and I hit just over that running OCCT with a large dataset, high priority, hyperthreading on. I max at about 86C in OCCT, Coretemp reads it at 83C. Idle I'm around 53-55C OCCT, Coretemp reads it at 50-53C." read link below

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Ok, I read it, and I'm not sure what you are getting at.....:shrug: , but here's the full quote:

Quote:

I have a D0 at 4.0Ghz (1.3v vcore) and I hit just over that running OCCT with a large dataset, high priority, hyperthreading on. I max at about 86C in OCCT, Coretemp reads it at 83C. Idle I'm around 53-55C OCCT, Coretemp reads it at 50-53C.

For some reason Coretemp(and realtemp) register my temps 3C lower than OCCT does.

I run perfectly stable, not sure how you can get a 4GHz OC, even with a D0, and not go over 70C full load.

Emphasis added.

I've not checked out OCCT. I OC for 24/7 crunching stability and on this i7--I also use it for everyday use. :up: As far as temp readings--which is right? Realtemp seems to be the standard, with Coretemp = or a close 2nd. Then there's Everest, OCCT and what else? I go by Realtemp with a 100 TjMax as I think most do these days. From what I can gather those guys are referring to air, not water. But the last statement sums things up pretty good: It's not easy running 4.0 or above under 70C.....and again: I'm using an ApogeeGT block--that says a lot. :up:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...i7PC5-3-09.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by railmeat

your Yes, Another Car Radiator Thread IS AMAZING,HAHAHA!!!!:up::D

Thanx! :up: It was a lot of fun. I definitely learned a lot about the functionality of it all during the process. Sad to see it go, but I've moved on to this chiller.....:up: But No Fear--I am keeping the car rads for now, because: I have a Plan....:D

A bit of an update:

Putting the tubing over the temp probe seemed to help, but only some. Ambient temps in the out-building directly effect the mechanical thermostat, so when temps outside (/in the out-building) get below the set temp--the mechanical thermostat shuts the compressor off and leaves it off. :down: I've thought and thought, tried to insulate the thermostat, etc. I have quite a bit of experience from my +30yrs dealing with reptiles, aquariums, etc. I cannot see any reasonable, simple way to overcome this. So, I went ahead and bought 1 of these:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3..._etc_wired.jpg

Ranco 111000

I looked at the Johnson Controls. I have a couple of Helix Proportional Controllers, but they are Proportional, so they won't work in this situation. Anyway, the Ranco have been around for a long, long time. They are used by zoos and aquaruims worldwide. Many, many animal keepers (public or private) use them. Convenience stores, restaurants for their coolers/freezers. In all: they are tried and true. Very reliable units.

They offer heating or cooling (not both on single stage), temp range from -30 to 220F, and a Differential range: 1° to 30°F.

They are designed for use with resistive loads (motors) and will resolve this issue 100%. The differential range will allow me to set the temps at which the compressor kicks on and off. With the mechanical thermostat it's 5F. Now I will be able to set it anywhere from 1-30F.

I'm hoping it gets here this coming week. I did not buy the wired shown, so I need to pick up the wiring, get it wired up and installed. Until then: My water temps are 63-68F and humidity stays ~50% in here, so condensation starts forming at about 84-85F/30C in here. I'll have to keep the A/Cs running until I get this setup. I usually turn them up to 82F when I'm not here/working. The ambient right at the PCs goes up to 85-86F which is too high=condensation.

Fingers crossed on no more major issues between now and then....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...es/biggrin.gif
06-11-2009, 09:50 PM
Plan.B

I love a good 'ol a/c convert. and it crunches! nice implementation and craftsmanship, again.
06-12-2009, 06:16 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan.B

I love a good 'ol a/c convert. and it crunches! nice implementation and craftsmanship, again.

Me too! :up: I should have done this a ways back, but I've enjoyed the other projects. :up:

Well, the controller arrived a couple of days ago. I had picked up the wiring--went with 14 gauge. Call me crazy, but I would rather burn up the controller then burn down the building! I'm just kinda quirky like that! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3.../icon_eyes.gif I got it wired up, no problem, but had 1 minor issue. While waiting for it to arrive, I learned that the probe (sensor) is not supposed to be submerged. Well, that kinda screws things up! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...es/biggrin.gif So, I had a choice:

1) Purchase a $30 "Bulb Well Assembly", pay another shipping charge and wait a bit longer, Or....

2) Improvise. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ies/tongue.gif

I chose #2. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif First was coming up with at least a temporary fix. I considered siliconing, epoxying, etc the sensor and wiring, but I really didn't want to do that. So, I got out a couple of aquarium heater holders and some pvc:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation012.jpg

I knew this was going to be temporary, so I glued the bottom submersed cap on, but not the top cap. Drilled a hole in the top cap that the sensor would squeeze through and then babysat the system for a little while. Actually worked pretty good really. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif The thermal conductivity of pvc is like 0.19 or something low, so I was curious what my temp range was going to be. I set the differential for 2F--it turned out not to be more then ~4F which is actually pretty darn good. But not good enough.....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

I knew I had a +1Ft piece of 1/2" copper pipe laying around, but also knew that I did not have any caps for it. So, a stop by lowes fixed that and while I was there I went ahead and picked up a rubber grommet. Yesterday I was pretty tired and I knew things could hold another day, so I procrastinated until today. Got my butt out there and got this fix fixed! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ilies/yepp.gif

Sweated on the bottom copper cap:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation002.jpg

Got the grommet over the sensor and a hole drilled through the top cap:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation014.jpg

Even though I could have sweat the top cap on and inserted the probe after things cooled--I knew that some time in the future I would want to remove that probe--the hole is tight, so I can't necessarily just get it back out. I chose to silicone the cap on and silicone over the grommet and wiring:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation029.jpg

I have no intention of submersing the top of this thing, so the silicone should do a good job of keeping the moisture out long term--that's all that's really needed. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

So, next I needed to mount it into the cooler. Why not go with a good thing already? I knew that the heater holders would not clip onto the copper pipe because it's just too narrow. So, time to improvise again. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif Took a small scrap piece of 3/4" pvc, cut it into 4 pieces, clipped 1 piece into each heater clip and slid the copper setup right down in there:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation038.jpg

Picked up a couple more gals of anti-freeze at walmart when I hit lowes, so I added that:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation045.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation052.jpg

So, now there is ~7.75 gals of anti-freeze and 17 gals of water. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif I need to do another time study to see how long my on/off cycles times are now. I doubt I'll do it today, but hopefully some time this weekend. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

Just a larger view:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation047.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llation053.jpg

Oh, yeah, I fixed the return bulkhead leak by loosening the bulkhead and siliconing under and all around it. Not the preferred way to go, but useful in these types of situations. The preferred route is no leaking bulkhead to start with....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...milies/doh.gif

So far so good:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...eenShot067.jpg

Max temp over the last 30+ mins is 70C. The mins kinda worry me though. I may move everything up a couple of degrees after everything settles in. I would rather move my max temp up to say 75C than deal with condensation! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

Oh, and I lowered my OC down to ~4.0 for now.....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

More Updates at Post #46
06-12-2009, 06:21 AM
[XC] gomeler

Great stuff. I'll be following in your footsteps, sort of, very soon. Really looking forward to a large reservoir but I think I'm going to make a dewar of sorts out of two plastic barrels.
06-12-2009, 06:29 AM
Naja002

Hey, Gom--Thanx. As mentioned in the other thread--I still have that blue barrel--BUT it's thermal conductivity is toooo much. Yes, it's plastic, but it will absorb and release a ton of energy. I learned that when I was using it with my car rads--and at 1 point when I used Only the blue barrel--no rads, no nothing--just the barrel.. My best advice is truly to go with 1 or 2 large coolers. The Coleman marine 5-day coolers are excellent and ~ $82 plus tax at walmart--but ya gotta order it in. They only keep the 120qt polar like I have in store ($52 + tax). I have considered plumbing another polar to this one and doubling my fluid mass. I have the bulkheads, but I don't think I will be doing it any time soon--if at all. First thing is another time study of my current setup.

Skip the blue barrel--go with a cooler! :up:
06-12-2009, 06:55 AM
[XC] gomeler

I haven't got the space for the coolers. I know the barrels will leak a lot, hence why I want to try stuffing a smaller one inside of a larger one and pulling a vacuum on the space in between. Should provide fantastic insulation, same concept that keeps those Coleman coolers insulated :)
06-12-2009, 06:57 AM
Naja002

Sounds Good. :up: I wasn't aware of the 2 barrels, vacuum et al, but, Yes--sounds like a plan worth checking out! :up:

Sheesh. Now that it's done....I should have just picked up some of that Plasti-dip stuff and used that for the probe. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...milies/doh.gif
06-12-2009, 08:36 AM
[XC] gomeler

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

same concept thermos bottle uses also add some styrofoam peanuts between tubes/container

Yup. Need the stuffing material especially to keep the inside barrel stationary. Guess I should stop thread-crapping and start up my own thread :D
06-12-2009, 06:15 PM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler

Yup. Need the stuffing material especially to keep the inside barrel stationary. Guess I should stop thread-crapping and start up my own thread :D

No sweat. :up: I don't expect to be going that route any time soon, but it is good food for thought for the future. :up: I don't own a vacuum pump, so I usually don't even think in that direction, but......I may before long. :up:
06-12-2009, 08:21 PM
Naja002

Here's a question: How can I tell if the fins on the evaporator are aluminum or stainless steel? :shrug: I've assumed they were aluminum, but realize that they could be stainless. I've looked at them, but it could go either way.
06-13-2009, 06:55 AM
[XC] gomeler

So long as the stainless steel doesn't have a high nickel content you can use a magnet. If it is steel it'll stick, aluminum won't. You can also tell by weight, and ease of bending.
06-13-2009, 05:40 PM
Naja002

Thanx. gom. A magnet, huh? http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...milies/doh.gif It's a low end AC, so I'm assuming it's aluminum. My only thought was the money spent on anti-freeze....with stainless I don't think that I would have needed it, but it may be good to have it in there anyway.....:up:
06-13-2009, 05:58 PM
[XC] gomeler

What is the concern? The aluminum/copper mix in your "loop"? I thought adding antifreeze solved that?
06-14-2009, 06:37 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler

What is the concern? The aluminum/copper mix in your "loop"? I thought adding antifreeze solved that?

It did. I was just thinking that maybe I wasted $77 on the anti-freeze when I may not have needed it. However, until I get around to checking the evap fins--I am definitely going to assume that they are aluminum. :up: Also, trying to get all of this stuff logged into my head for future thinking.....:p: I knew that some evap fins are made of stainless.....just never crossed my mind until after everything was completed......oldtimer's syndrome, I guess. :up:
06-14-2009, 07:16 AM
[XC] gomeler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naja002

It did. I was just thinking that maybe I wasted $77 on the anti-freeze when I may not have needed it. However, until I get around to checking the evap fins--I am definitely going to assume that they are aluminum. :up: Also, trying to get all of this stuff logged into my head for future thinking.....:p: I knew that some evap fins are made of stainless.....just never crossed my mind until after everything was completed......oldtimer's syndrome, I guess. :up:

I'd say there is a slim chance that they are steel, most that I have seen are aluminum. The anti-freeze wasn't wasted either, now you can go sub-zero :D
07-08-2009, 03:34 PM
Otis11

Well, thing to be careful of, even if it's aluminum the magnets may stick - the tubing inside of those fins are copper. Don't know how to check that...

And reducing the number of cycles is simple...put 3 more computers in the loop. Only 1 cycle/24 hours- ON. :rofl:
07-09-2009, 07:23 AM
rpg711

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otis11

Well, thing to be careful of, even if it's aluminum the magnets may stick - the tubing inside of those fins are copper. Don't know how to check that...

And reducing the number of cycles is simple...put 3 more computers in the loop. Only 1 cycle/24 hours- ON. :rofl:

Considering there's only 3 magnetic elements... I think he's safe with aluminum and copper. :up:
07-10-2009, 05:41 PM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otis11

Well, thing to be careful of, even if it's aluminum the magnets may stick - the tubing inside of those fins are copper. Don't know how to check that...

And reducing the number of cycles is simple...put 3 more computers in the loop. Only 1 cycle/24 hours- ON. :rofl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpg711

Considering there's only 3 magnetic elements... I think he's safe with aluminum and copper. :up:

:up:

Just wanted to say that this is a nice "set it and forget it" project. Since everything has been setup, checked out and set.....it just runs itself. No babysitting required. :up:
07-11-2009, 07:27 PM
NotSoCoolJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naja002

The amount of water evaporated is going to be effected by many different things like: water temp v. ambient temp, relative humidity and so on. If you put your pump as low as possible in the res it will offer more headway against evaporation. Hooking up to the plumbing for a sink, shower, toilet, washer, etc is not difficult to do. One small hole through a wall can be all that's really needed to run a line of 1/4" ID ice maker tubing to a float valve. Odds are you have incoming water in the next room....there's the source. Holes through drywall are easily fixed. :up:

There are ways to setup a 2-liter bottle, gallon jug, 5gal bucket for short-term auto-refill.....

See text in bold!!!!

NEVER DO THAT... EVER!!!!!1111 :shakes: Crap in the water will eat your water block in no time! Probably trash the ac evap in short order.

Never use anything in a water loop but pure Reverse Osmosis treated water. If it is a chiller, buy a gallon of cheap vodka and your set to go.

Is buying water and separate denatured alcohol cheaper? Not usually, after you have driven to get the water and then you drive to the home improvement store to buy denatured alcohol it's usually a wash. You can get a gallon of skunk vodka at the nearest Liquor store for 10$ around here. Pure water and ethanol.

NO TAP WATER!!!:down:
07-11-2009, 08:38 PM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

See text in bold!!!!

NEVER DO THAT... EVER!!!!!1111 :shakes: Crap in the water will eat your water block in no time! Probably trash the ac evap in short order.

Never use anything in a water loop but pure Reverse Osmosis treated water. If it is a chiller, buy a gallon of cheap vodka and your set to go.

Is buying water and separate denatured alcohol cheaper? Not usually, after you have driven to get the water and then you drive to the home improvement store to buy denatured alcohol it's usually a wash. You can get a gallon of skunk vodka at the nearest Liquor store for 10$ around here. Pure water and ethanol.

NO TAP WATER!!!:down:

Dude, it's time to put up or shut up. :up: Here's your last assertions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Please tell me that is not TAP WATER...:shakes: If it is..Enjoy cleaning your crusty water block every 2 weeks.

My response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naja002

:p: My question would be: How much do you actually know about water? Are you speaking from experience? Or just what you've read on forums?

I've been using this tap water for almost 1 yr now. The biggest issue isn't from the water...it's from debris during filling. It's much easier to get debris inside a system this size then in an average WCing loop. Now with the bongs--it may be even more of an issue...that's the purpose of the pump prefilter--hopefully it will help. Additionally, I have an old Koolance case that I run. It's been on this tap water for quite some time now....no crusty block issues with it.

This whole car rad setup has been on tap water since day 1 (6-3-08). I've had to clean the blocks twice. The "gunk" inside is more from debris generally then the water itself. :up:

Of course, no response from you. I don't care what you've read....I have experience that says you do not know what you are talking about. Only "Reverse Osmosis" "treated" water? So, distilled won't do, huh? Do you even know the difference? So, just PROVE your claims....or just shut up and go away.

EDIT: I just sent you a "Put up or Shut up" PM to this post, so let's not claim "unaware". Time to put up.....
07-12-2009, 06:04 AM
NotSoCoolJ

Easy killer. I had no Idea you had a problem with the no tap water recommendation. If you can't be bothered to do a little research before you get all antsy in the pantsy, perhaps you could explain to everyone how their water is exactly like yours no matter where they live. Manny places have horrible hard water. I can tell you from past experience, with my local water, your blocks would be ruined in a week easy. My water is chlorinated. Generally, if you live in developed country, yours will be to.

Now I propose an experiment. Go get your self some samples of various metals and apply some chlorine bleach to them. See what happens. Some metals will withstand this to a certain extent. Aluminum fares quite well. It may be several hours before you notice any oxidation. It will absolutely pit and destroy copper within a matter of days. Ferrous metals will corrode instantly! Do you really want that in your cooling loop? Have you ever rust blued steel with bleach? I do it all the time for tools and firearms. Certain firearms like over/under and side by side shot guns are soldered together and cannot be hot nitre blued or they will fall apart.

Yes, I do absolutely know the difference between distilled water and R/O treated water. Distilled (self explanatory) water still contains trace amounts of salts and chemicals and various other dissolved solids. R/O treated water is forced through several layers of filters and will be as close to pure water as you can get.

What your saying is analogous to me telling every one that it is OK to drive around without a seat belt because I do and I have never been hurt. While it works for you, it wont be the same for anyone else.

Hell, my equipment is expensive! I don't know about you, but taking a few precautionary measures to insure the life of my equipment is not an unreasonable thing. Nor should I have to come in here and defend a prudent statement just because YOU use tap water. In my opinion and many others including GM, Ford, Ferrari, NASA, and generally anyone who knows what a TDS meter is, using tap water in a cooling loop is unacceptable! Period!

To recommend someone put tap water in a cooling loop that they want to keep functioning in top shape is callus and arrogant. Is using tap water in your cooling loop OK? For you it may be. Don't be so quick to presume that all tap water everywhere is fine because it is not.

So I will say this again for the cheap seats. Using tap water in a cooling loop is asking for trouble! In the end you can put nasty old puddle water in your loop if you desire but certainly don't recommend that anyone else do so.

Edit:
Just so no one has to take my word for it.
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4687100...ect-metal.html
http://www.directron.com/waterinfo.html#coolant
http://www.xoxide.com/water-cooling.html#Liquid
http://www.lytron.com/tools-technica...er-fluids.aspx
Seems like pretty much every one thinks using tap water in a cooling loop is a bad idea. Except you.
I will consider the matter settled.
Once again, I don't give a flying monkey fart what you put in your cooling loop. Don't go around recommending others do the same because it is not safe or a good idea. Now find someone else to get in a tiff with. Next time make sure you know WTF you are talking about.
07-12-2009, 06:38 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Easy killer. I had no Idea you had a problem with the no tap water recommendation. If you can't be bothered to do a little research before you get all antsy in the pantsy, perhaps you could explain to everyone how their water is exactly like yours no matter where they live. Manny places have horrible hard water. I can tell you from past experience, with my local water, your blocks would be ruined in a week easy. My water is chlorinated. Generally, if you live in developed country, yours will be to.

Now I propose an experiment. Go get your self some samples of various metals and apply some chlorine bleach to them. See what happens. Some metals will withstand this to a certain extent. Aluminum fares quite well. It may be several hours before you notice any oxidation. It will absolutely pit and destroy copper within a matter of days. Ferrous metals will corrode instantly! Do you really want that in your cooling loop? Have you ever rust blued steel with bleach? I do it all the time for tools and firearms. Certain firearms like over/under and side by side shot guns are soldered together and cannot be hot nitre blued or they will fall apart.

Yes, I do absolutely know the difference between distilled water and R/O treated water. Distilled (self explanatory) water still contains trace amounts of salts and chemicals and various other dissolved solids. R/O treated water is forced through several layers of filters and will be as close to pure water as you can get.

What your saying is analogous to me telling every one that it is OK to drive around without a seat belt because I do and I have never been hurt. While it works for you, it wont be the same for anyone else.

Hell, my equipment is expensive! I don't know about you, but taking a few precautionary measures to insure the life of my equipment is not an unreasonable thing. Nor should I have to come in here and defend a prudent statement just because YOU use tap water. In my opinion and many others including GM, Ford, Ferrari, NASA, and generally anyone who knows what a TDS meter is, using tap water in a cooling loop is unacceptable! Period!

To recommend someone put tap water in a cooling loop that they want to keep functioning in top shape is callus and arrogant. Is using tap water in your cooling loop OK? For you it may be. Don't be so quick to presume that all tap water everywhere is fine because it is not.

So I will say this again for the cheap seats. Using tap water in a cooling loop is asking for trouble! In the end you can put nasty old puddle water in your loop if you desire but certainly don't recommend that anyone else do so.

Edit:
Just so no one has to take my word for it.
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4687100...ect-metal.html
http://www.directron.com/waterinfo.html#coolant
http://www.xoxide.com/water-cooling.html#Liquid
http://www.lytron.com/tools-technica...er-fluids.aspx
Seems like pretty much every one thinks using tap water in a cooling loop is a bad idea. Except you.
I will consider the matter settled.
Once again, I don't give a flying monkey fart what you put in your cooling loop. Don't go around recommending others do the same because it is not safe or a good idea. Now find someone else to get in a tiff with. Next time make sure you know WTF you are talking about.

:D What a riot! I'll finish reading your post after I respond to it! :up:

1) I'm not the one with any explaining to do to anybody.

2) I'm not the one that's going to be doing any experiments. My results are right here. So, put up or shut up. :up: The burden is on YOU!

After reading your post:

I really don't care about your opinions or analogies. Maybe you should read your links a bit more closely and pay attention. But my only one real point is: I don't recommend that people use tap water in their blocks---I simply state that I use tap water in my blocks. Even on that 1 simple point you can't get it right.
07-12-2009, 06:51 AM
NotSoCoolJ

There is nothing to prove. It is a fact. Grass grows, birds fly, and tap water corrodes metals. You even said yourself that you clean crap out of your setup periodically. What do you think that crap is? Calcium, lime, chlorine salts, zinc, and perhaps even actual salt! If your arrogance ever subsides and you decide to use a proper cooling solution perhaps you wont have to clean that crud out of your system all the time.

Just so we are clear. Your recommendation is that it is safe for everyone to use water out of their tap for their cooling loops?
07-12-2009, 07:03 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

There is nothing to prove. It is a fact. Grass grows, birds fly, and tap water corrodes metals. You even said yourself that you clean crap out of your setup periodically. What do you think that crap is? Calcium, lime, chlorine salts, zinc, and perhaps even actual salt! If your arrogance ever subsides and you decide to use a proper cooling solution perhaps you wont have to clean that crud out of your system all the time.

Re-read my statements and pay attention---I don't clean my blocks out "every 2 weeks" or "all the time." Yeah, Quote me. Then go over to the XS LC section and pay attention to the folks that follow the rules and still get garbage in their loops, then explain it. And explain why what you say isn't showing up by way of temp increases, leaking blocks from all that corrosion, you know--etc, etc, etc. Again, You have the explaining to do. Instead you just make noise, because you cannot back up your claims, exagerate, etc, etc, etc. Put up, dude. Put up or just shut up. It's really that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Just so we are clear. Your recommendation is that it is safe for everyone to use water out of their tap for their cooling loops?

Yeah, You'll have to quote me on that.....:up:
07-12-2009, 07:40 AM
NotSoCoolJ

You can't be serious. Have you never seen the inside of hot water heater? I don't have anything to prove. The statements I have made are accepted as fact by the scientific community at large and have been proven time and time again to be correct. Troll me if you must, but you are the one with the radical idea that tap water is acceptable.
You also can't presume to know the water quality of everyone, even in the state in which you live, much less the entire planet. You seem to be not understanding the consequences for others if they attempt to use tap water and don't go to your house to get it. Your personal experience is limited to the water that comes from your tap alone! If you can't accept the fact that your being callus and irresponsible by telling everyone that tap water is OK for their cooling loops even though you have no idea what is in the water that flows from their tap, then this discussion is finished. You may continue to ramble on and try to play childish games with me but I will not respond. I don't argue with children.

Like I said before, more than once, use whatever swill you wish, but certainly don't recommend that it is safe for others to do so. In the end it is your investment and your hard work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naja002

But my only one real point is: I don't recommend that people use tap water in their blocks---I simply state that I use tap water in my blocks. Even on that 1 simple point you can't get it right.

Except in the post I originally quoted where you did actually suggest that antiacid use tap water for auto leveling without taking into consideration that not everyone's water is the same as yours.

I'll quote it again considering that is what the issue is all about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naja002

The amount of water evaporated is going to be effected by many different things like: water temp v. ambient temp, relative humidity and so on. If you put your pump as low as possible in the res it will offer more headway against evaporation. Hooking up to the plumbing for a sink, shower, toilet, washer, etc is not difficult to do. One small hole through a wall can be all that's really needed to run a line of 1/4" ID ice maker tubing to a float valve. Odds are you have incoming water in the next room....there's the source. Holes through drywall are easily fixed. :up:

There are ways to setup a 2-liter bottle, gallon jug, 5gal bucket for short-term auto-refill.....
07-12-2009, 08:13 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

You can't be serious. Have you never seen the inside of hot water heater?

Sheesh. How short sighted can you be? A hot water heater has a constant in flux of new water containing more quantity of the same elements and sediments. My loop has a finite quantity of water---yeah, and elements and sediments. So, you are comparing apple to oranges. Another act of desperation and short-sightedness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

I don't have anything to prove.

Well, of course you don't. You have every right to make all the absolute staements that you want without having to back any of them up. Not even the simple ones like quoting me with my own words. :up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

The statements I have made are accepted as fact by the scientific community at large and have been proven time and time again to be correct.

Now you speak for the scientic community at large? Ummm, ok, then you and the scientific community at large will need to talk to my blocks and other stuff....not me. Cuz they ain't listenin', cuz. :p:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Troll me if you must, but you are the one with the radical idea that tap water is acceptable.

My tap water is acceptable to me at this time in this situation. You've not shown any reason why it should not be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

You also can't presume to know the water quality of everyone, even in the state in which you live, much less the entire planet.

Nice of you to tell me once again what I presume, think recommend, etc, etc, etc. Here's an idea: Quote me. Yeah, you lazy schmuck: quote me. How lazy can you be? Just quote me. :up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

You seem to be not understanding the consequences for others if they attempt to use tap water and don't go to your house to get it.

Oh, I understand the consequences. My tap water does a great job of stuffing your head up your behind: Gh 18, Kh 14, pH 8.2, TDS 290. Explain it. Oh, that's right- You CAN'T. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Your personal experience is limited to the water that comes from your tap alone!

Absolutely. So, what's your point? That you like to assume a lot? And you are not very good at it. :ROTF:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

If you can't accept the fact that your being callus and irresponsible by telling everyone that tap water is OK for their cooling loops even though you have no idea what is in the water that flows from their tap, then this discussion is finished.

You keep "finish"ing this discussion, but never shut up.....:confused: :D

Honestly though, you are the one who is being callous and irresponsible. You are the one running around making absolute staements that you cannot support. You are the one running around telling me what I think, what I presume, what I recommend--yet you cannot even quote me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

You may continue to ramble on and try to play childish games with me but I will not respond. I don't argue with children.

Cool. I think we've accomplished making you look childish, so we can quit now, right? You haven't offer any proof on anything, so you're going to shut up now? Right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Like I said before, more than once, use whatever swill you wish, but certainly don't recommend that it is safe for others to do so. In the end it is your investment and your hard work.

Well, make up your mind: Do you want to TELL me what I recommend? Or do you want to ASK me what I recommend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Just so we are clear. Your recommendation is that it is safe for everyone to use water out of their tap for their cooling loops?

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about.....when you figure it out---quote me.
07-12-2009, 08:21 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

Except in the post I originally quoted where you did actually suggest that antiacid use tap water for auto leveling without taking into consideration that not everyone's water is the same as yours.

I was helping him locate a water source for a full-time auto refill. What his tap water consists of is not my concern--it's the user's concern. Just as whether or not there is actually a water source in the next room or not--is not my concern--it's their's. Did you miss the part that you quoted about the short-term refill options?

I'm not going to stop anyone from using their tap water. But being "ok" with it and actually recommending it are 2 different things. For 99% of the loops out there--distilled is the most practical choice. So what? Still doesn't show temp increases, or leaking from corrosion on my loops with tap water. Put up or shut up. :up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

I'll quote it again considering that is what the issue is all about.

No actually the issue is all about you making one absolute statement after another and then squirming around not offering any proof. Just noise. That's all you've got. Noise. :down:
07-12-2009, 08:26 AM
NotSoCoolJ

What is your problem man? You suggested to someone else that it was OK for them to use tap water. I simply stated that this person shouldn't heed your recommendation. You started a bunch of :banana::banana::banana::banana: and now you totally ignore that fact that you told forum user antiacid that he should use tap water. You have stick up your colon today or something. That much is obvious.
07-12-2009, 08:52 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ

What is your problem man? You suggested to someone else that it was OK for them to use tap water. I simply stated that this person shouldn't heed your recommendation. You started a bunch of :banana::banana::banana::banana: and now you totally ignore that fact that you told forum user antiacid that he should use tap water. You have stick up your colon today or something. That much is obvious.

Ummmm, No. If life were that simple--there would be no conflict. I don't care how "right" you think you are--go back and read your first post in this thread and the other. You make statements you cannot support and you do it in a manner that goes well beyond "assertive". You need to step way back and take a look at yourself---only then may you begin to see where the conflicts arises. :up:

Truth? Tap water is not the best choice. But that does not mean that it's not very usable either. :up: I have an RODI setup and a Dual DI setup. I can buy distilled just like everybody else. Would I be better off for it? Sure. But by how much? You have no idea how many times I drained that car rad loop--no, not to "clean" it, but to work on something. If I had to buy distilled every time or "conserve" what was there? No. Not worth the trouble or expense. :up:

I understand plenty about water. I've had aquariums for many years and you may want to check out the acrochordus.com in my sig. I'm not clueless about water, my water, or the vast range of water--even within a fairly small area. :up: I decided to "test" that car rad setup with tap water, because 1) at the moment I did not feel like going and getting however many jugs of water I would need (remember the setup contained a 55 gal barrel) and 2) I was not sure how often I would need to drain it to "fix" something. So, I started with tap, stuck with it--and glad that I have. :up: But if I were to setup an everyday loop like most people's--I would go pick up a gal or 2 of distilled. Why? Why not? It's too easy. But with this chiller, I used tap water because it was convenient and I've added $77 worth of anti-freeze--so, no, I won't be swapping it out for "purer" water any time soon. But my experience doesn't tell me that I need to....:up:

For the record: I don't "recommend" for people to use their tap water. But I don't necessarily recommend against it either. It's up to them as far as I'm concerned. For the average loop: Not using distilled is just silly. It's just too easy. My situation is different though....and it's my choice--no one else's. Same for the next person. :up:

As far as tap water goes--there is some really good tap water out there. :yepp: But for the average loop: distilled is still a better bet. :up:
07-12-2009, 09:22 AM
NotSoCoolJ

Naja, honestly my intention wasn't to incite commotion. I wish my tap water was like yours. I would love to be able to fill loop from the tap. I never presumed that your water quality was anything other than how you describe it. You must understand my intention was to dissuade antiacid from putting tap water in his cooling loop. You can't imagine the flashbacks I had of my very first water cooling experiments where I did use my tap water and payed a hefty monetary price for doing so. I hope you also realize this person is talking about a bong setup. What happens when the shower head gets clogged from calcium buildup or just some crap that flowed in through the tap. I didn't totally ignore the fact that my tap water probably wasn't the best thing. I thought that I would see some change in temp over time or something, but really it was much more dramatic than that. It worked perfect for 5 days. No drop in temp nothing. I left to take my wife to dinner and came home to $1000 worth of dead PC components. The shower head had clogged and the pump I was using blew the hose off the water block. I learned many things that day.
1. Always use hose clamps.
2. Use a pump suitable for water cooling a PC not a city bus
3. Don't trust the tap water.
07-12-2009, 09:33 AM
Naja002

It's was definitely a bad experience, no doubt, But I have a hard time finding the tap water itself at fault. I kept reptiles for ~30 yrs. I had misting systems and all kinds of stuff. The water at that location was so hard that it would clog the mistheads in 30 days. Yeah, that's fast. :up: But those were fine mist heads with tiny openings...and it still took 30 days....give or take a couple. My point is simply that a bong setup is naturally inclined to collect all the garbage from the universe and put it into the loop. They are notorious for that! :up: That's why I added the dual prefilter to my pump...which I have kept since switching over to this chiller. :up: As I said before: I've had to clean these blocks twice--in just over 1 yr. And from actually being here, doing it--it's junk in the loop....not the elements that causes the issue. I am really waiting to see how long it is before they need to be cleaned out again.....with the prefilter--I'm hoping it will be a long time, cuz it's a real PITA! :yepp:

But, honestly, I wasn't there, so I cannot say for certain, but I willing to bet is was debris and not the water itself. :up:
07-12-2009, 10:03 AM
Utnorris

Wow!!!, Just finished reading all of this. First, congrats on the chiller Naja002. I did one recently and other than the noise (it was in the same room as the computer) I loved it. I wish I had another room I could put mine in so I could run it 24/7.

Now the second thing, NotSoCoolJ, why are you in here thread crapping? State your objection to using tap water and move on. Do you think you are going to change his mind? He has been using tap water for awhile and has had good results, hooray! Leave it alone. The world isn't going to end and if someone takes this thread as being ok to run tap water in their loop then that's ok. Would I use tap water? Nope, but I have hard water in my area and running to Wally World for 4 gallons of distilled water is easy for me. When I lived in Memphis, TN the tap water there was better than most bottled water, somthing like top 10 for clean water in the U.S., I might have considered using it.

Anyway, my point is, state your objection in a non-threatening way and then move on. If you feel that strongly about it, start your own thread in the LC section, I am pretty sure you have enough posts to start your own thread.

Again, Naja002 great work on the chiller. :up:
07-12-2009, 10:10 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utnorris

running to Wally World for 4 gallons of distilled water is easy for me.

Thanx, UT, And the quote above is how I feel too--for "normal" setups...distilled is just too easy to come by and offers too many benefits to go any other way. :up:

You may be interested in my current project:

AC to plateHX Chiller Conversion...56K Warning!
07-12-2009, 10:30 AM
Utnorris

I have been watching it, looking good. :up:

By the way, if I was filling a 55 gallon drum, I would use lake water if it was convient. The Wally World folks would look at me like I was insane or paranoid if I went there for 55 gallons of distilled water. :rofl:

Also, curious at why you used $77 worth of anti-freeze, did you not mix it to a 20/80 mix with water?
07-12-2009, 10:44 AM
Naja002

Same here....anything beyond the "norm" throws these folks outta whack and the "norm" is quite primitive. :up:

It's actually come out to ~32% anti-freeze. I haven't checked it in quite a while. I really do need to check for corrosion and/or evaporation. It should be fine on both counts, but ya never know.....:up:

Bought 7 gals (=$77 after tax), had 3/4 gal already, total fluid= ~24 gals.
07-12-2009, 12:38 PM
Utnorris

Wow! 24 gallon tank. I am at work and can't see the pics right now, have to wait till I get home tonight. My res was about 2.5 gallons and it cycled about every 15 minutes with my I7. Throw in the whole loop, GPU, NB, etc and it cycled every 7 minutes. It was just too loud for where I had it. It is still assembled and in the room, take 5 minutes to set it back up and with the heat we have here in Dallas I may do it. :D
07-12-2009, 05:22 PM
Naja002

With a 900-1Kw load this one cycles about every 30 minutes, I guess. Probably a little less time-wise. It's great.....just does it's thing. Currently, no muss, no fuss....:up:
11-13-2009, 08:05 AM
Naja002

Just wanted to update this:

As many of you know, I try to conserve energy by pumping the heat from my rigs outside during the warmer months, and pumping it inside during the colder months. In the past I did this with indoor/outdoor rads. Early this last summer I did the ghetto chiller that this thread has been about (above). Well, during this last summer I converted a 5K BTU AC to a plateHX chiller. Winter is here, so now I'm wanting to pump the heat inside again, but I really don't want to give up the chilled water. So, I've connected the plateHX chiller to my manifold for indoor/outdoor chillers! :D When it's too warm in here I turn off the indoor chiller and the outdoor chiller automatically takes over. When it's cool in here I just reach over and push the On button for the indoor chiller....and it starts pumping the heat inside here. At first it was like: Holy Cow that's Loud! :shocked: But now I barely even notice it. :up: It does not bother me while I'm sleeping, but I sleep like a rock anyway, so......:p:

First a quick rehash of the plateHX chiller:

I took a standard 5K BTU AC:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...x-8-9--095.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...x-8-9--096.jpg

Yanked the Evap and installed a plateHX:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...x-8-9--093.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...x-8-9--097.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...x-8-9--099.jpg

And put it back together again:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...x-8-9--091.jpg
11-13-2009, 08:07 AM
Naja002

Then I ordered another Ranco controller like above and got it wired up and ready to go:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...illerProbe.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...illerProbe.jpg

Covered the probe with 2 layers of super-duper heat shrink and got it installed into a pvc tee and ready to be connected up:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...illerProbe.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...illerProbe.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...illerProbe.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...illerProbe.jpg

Added some plumbing to my manifold, since I was short 1 connection:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llerUpdate.jpg

Set the chiller up where I wanted it and ran the tubing:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llerUpdate.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llerUpdate.jpg

Added some filter material:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...llerUpdate.jpg

At a 75F ambient in here the unit uses ~ 500w after the compressor warms up. It runs at the current heat load: 41mins on, 19mins off. So, it's on ~16hrs/day which equals ~$20.74/month at my current electric cost. That's a loss during the warmer months, but not during the colder months....helps keep me from paying to run the main heater, and supplements it when I do. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif

And it's a done deal! Works great! With the single push of a button I can direct the heat where I want it to go. Since it's fall right now the days are often warm enough that I don't want to be adding any more heat inside. But the nights are definitely getting cool. I've not turned on my main heating unit for the year yet.

And best of all, I get to maintain constant stable temps all yr round. No messing with overclocks, turning valves, going outside to turn a pump on or off. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/facepalm.gif Nothing. Just push a frickin' Button! :shocked: Oh, Happy Days! :up:
02-26-2010, 08:09 AM
Naja002

Just a few pix of a simple upgrade...

I got tired of the old zip-tied prefilter for the pump, so I decided to put together something a little better. Seems to have actually increased flow a little bit.

The Parts (4" pvc):
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...rfilter001.jpg

I really like the double grating idea. The inside grating keeps the filter material away from the 3/4" pump intake and allows the pump to draw water through the entire diameter of the filter:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...rfilter002.jpg

Cut to fit the micro-fine filter material....3 layers:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...rfilter003.jpg

Shot of the micro-fine....this end goes inside toward the pump intake:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...rfilter004.jpg

Other end with the blue filter material installed:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...rfilter005.jpg

The filter assembled:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...rfilter006.jpg

And installed, ( Apologies for the light reflection and the murkiness):
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...Filter2004.jpg

Cost without filter material: ~$16

Simple, durable, fast and easy dis/assembly.....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/sasmokin.gif
03-04-2010, 08:51 PM
=[PULSAR]=

Naja where did you pick up those coralife thermometers? I think I may need a few for my new build.
03-05-2010, 05:12 AM
Naja002

Not sure actually. I've bought a lot of aquarium stuff over the years, so probably from:

DrsFosterSmith.com

But do a google search. Seems they've gone up in price...used to be ~$5.
03-18-2010, 04:08 AM
Naja002

Ok, I decided to modify my ghetto chiller, so let's see....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/rolleyes.gif This "conversion" has been wrought with issues. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...milies/doh.gif I'm not going to bother to detail each and every one though. Had problems with the charging, evac, water tight seals...the list goes on. Seems as though I've struggled through them successfully though. The chiller has not been taken out to it's home yet, but is ready for that....probably tomorrow. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...smiley-019.gif

So, on with the show:

Rolled my evap = At least 2 dozen feet of 1/4" copper...2 separate paths/coils....3/8" in and out:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...version002.jpg

Pulled the ghetto chiler, brought it inside, got out the piercing valve and got setup for the recovery:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...version005.jpg

That went well enough, so it was time to put the evap together and get it mounted. My first attempt looked like this, but I'll tell ya--trying to get 3/8" copper through those 1/2" holes...without creasing it--is a task I could not seem to accomplish http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3.../banana015.gif :

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2004.jpg

So, a 1 hr round trip to Lowes and it came out looking more like this:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2003.jpg

Of course, I knew I should have left a few more inches of copper on the evap ends, but for some reason I thought I left enough ( http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...EMOTICON13.gif ) So, I ended up improvising a solution to get the evap/res mounted to the chiller:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...version009.jpg

I used these water tight sealing doodads for the evap lines in and out. Of course they gave me seapage/leakage issues, but I've managed to get them leak-free:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2002.jpg

While attaching the res/evap I added the low side port as seen in the vacuum pump pic above. And removed the manufacturer crimped off access port and attached a shrader valve there for the high side access port:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...version010.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...version011.jpg

So, now it's ready for the evac.....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ilies/cool.gif
03-18-2010, 04:11 AM
Naja002

Same pic as above. Hooked up for evac with the micron meter dead ended:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2003.jpg

I had issues with the evacing, but let's cut to the chase with the first signs of life:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2005.jpg

Followed by the next sign of life:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2006.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2007.jpg

Went round and round with the charging/evacing...back and forth...round and round. Many Thanx! to shurik who was there to try to help a fella out! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif But in the end the top portion of the res was not filling with water (trapped air). It wasn't until after I realized this ( http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...milies/doh.gif )that everything started jumping into place. Once I tilted the chiller to get the trapped air out....charging was a breeze! http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ies/cool-1.gif

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...sion2002-1.jpg

I decided to go with R290 (the ghetto version :p). Modified a torch valve/tip:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2009.jpg

I did not modify the teeny, tiny little hole, so filling was super-duper slow....needed to fix that, so I did--unbrazed the mod, took apart the torch valve and cut the tip off. Now it charges vapor and/or liquid...and super-fast:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2010.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2011.jpg

Put it back together again:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ersion2001.jpg

She ain't purdy, but she works right nice.... http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/sasmokin.gif
03-18-2010, 04:14 AM
Naja002

So, it was time to get some other stuff done. As stated earlier, I managed to get the water tight fittings actually, uh, water tight! ( http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/facepalm.gif ) Decided to go ahead and remove the original a/c thermostat and just connected the 2 leads together via this little buss bar (red/white, right side):

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...sionRes001.jpg

Got most, maybe all, of the res insulation completed....I may insulate the tee ends...maybe not, we'll see:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...sionRes002.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...sionRes003.jpg

And that's it for the moment. Need to haul it out to the building, get the plumbing hooked up (no biggie) check the tune under load ( at the current low ambients) and then check it a bit later after things warm up a bit. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...s/thumbsup.gif Next up will be getting the blocks and unisinks mounted on these 58xx series cards....http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ies/cheers.gif
03-18-2010, 05:54 PM
wdrzal

I would double check your "buss bar", I seen capacitors that look like that. Not your normal looking run or start capacitors. Look for a uf rating.

Oh, and great job!:up:
03-18-2010, 07:06 PM
n00b 0f l337

What's with those hand valves; that really is a danger left uncapped or left on to begin wtih.
03-18-2010, 10:25 PM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

I would double check your "buss bar", I seen capacitors that look like that. Not your normal looking run or start capacitors. Look for a uf rating.

Oh, and great job!:up:

Many Thanx, Walt! :up: The buss bar is part of the "control box" that came with the a/c. Same with the capacitor. So, I really don't understand what you're getting at....:shrug: The wires to the left of the red/white thermostat wires are connected to a different little buss bar and are the wires coming in from the plug/wall. Both of the little buss bars look identical, so I've no doubt that it can handle the voltage/amps. The controls, capacitor, compressor, etc are all original from the manufacturer (Fridgidaire), so let me know a bit more about what you are seeing and I'll check it out. :up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

What's with those hand valves; that really is a danger left uncapped or left on to begin wtih.

Those are the yellow jacket hose end ball valves. No one has access to the chiller, except me, a burglar or maybe a ghost ( :D ). No kids, pets, wild animals, etc, so it's definitely not as unsafe as it appears. But you're right, I can put some caps on them...that's not a problem. :up:

I left them on for convenience, because I wanted to check the tune once moved back to it's permanent home. Just lose gas taking them off and putting them back on, etc. They are just temporary...once everything is settled...they're coming off and the access valves will be properly capped. :up:
03-18-2010, 11:19 PM
wdrzal

In the first pic in post 53 I can see a black box(lower left)that I believe is the fan speed control? You said you removed the thermostat.
The red wire from that control goes to the white "buss bar" ? In general these type of units all connection are at the fan switch,thermostat,or on capacitors.I never seen a bus bar in a window unit. The white buss bar (upper right rectangle with red,blue & white sheathed wire) may be a small capacitor for the fan motor(depending on where the wires go),cant see.Check with a multimeter if it is a buss bar you will have 0 ohms between all possible connections. Look for any letters or numbers on it.

And look and the wiring diagram.
03-19-2010, 12:19 AM
FlawleZ

Just stumbled upon this thread and its VERY interesting. Great work so far Naja002! Just one question, and it may not matter much now since you've changed the setup, but are you sure a 70/30 mix was necessary for your 24 gallon reservoir/tank? Wouldn't say an 85/15 mix be sufficient yet more efficient?
03-19-2010, 01:39 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

In the first pic in post 53 I can see a black box(lower left)that I believe is the fan speed control? You said you removed the thermostat.
The red wire from that control goes to the white "buss bar" ? In general these type of units all connection are at the fan switch,thermostat,or on capacitors.I never seen a bus bar in a window unit. The white buss bar (upper right rectangle with red,blue & white sheathed wire) may be a small capacitor for the fan motor(depending on where the wires go),cant see.Check with a multimeter if it is a buss bar you will have 0 ohms between all possible connections. Look for any letters or numbers on it.

And look and the wiring diagram.

Ok, I understand what you're getting at...:up: I can take a pic, but the metal of the little buss bars is all one piece (2 separate bars though). The red/white wire are actually both red--the white sleeve is just that...a sleeve. If ya look closely (maybe enlarge the pic some) you can see the hint of red wiring just after the sleeve. They are both red wires. As you know, a thermostat is just an on/off switch. All I did was by-pass the switch by "connecting the wires together".....via that little buss bar. The buss bar is just solid metal with 4 prongs for the wires to mount on to it. The prongs do not go into the plastic....it's completely visible. 100%. Just a convenient direct connection. The other little buss bar is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlawleZ

Just stumbled upon this thread and its VERY interesting. Great work so far Naja002! Just one question, and it may not matter much now since you've changed the setup, but are you sure a 70/30 mix was necessary for your 24 gallon reservoir/tank? Wouldn't say an 85/15 mix be sufficient yet more efficient?

Thanx! :up:

I asked, but ultimately could not locate an adequate answer. So, with all of the aluminum on the evap of the ghetto chiller...it was better to overkill then underkill, IMO. :up:

Just wanted to toss in here about the micron meter. As some will recall in my plateHX conversion thread I had a lot of headache from the micron meter, or the system not holding vacuum or something. Well, after I-have-no-idea-how-many-cleanings and letting the micron meter sit for months with alcohol in it....it works just fine! :up:Apparently originally pulling the oil over it made it go wacky and there was no simple 1 or 12 cleaning fix. It took a lot more then that! :yepp: So, 1) I'll be dead-ending it from here on out, and 2) I ordered a 3', 3/8" vacuum hose and adapter that I am hoping will eliminate the frickin' BS from trying to do a serious evac with the standard charging hoses. If this doesn't work then I'll order another adapter and make a copper line like Ultralo1 ! Dammit. :D
03-19-2010, 03:31 AM
wdrzal

Got ya Naja...........It caught my eye because I've seen small plastic enclosed capacitors in that shape with 4 to 8 spade terminals. The pic looked to me there are 4 terminals on one end,a small space and 4 terminals on the other end.

Sorry ,but it didn't hurt to ask :shrug:......Carry on. :up:
03-19-2010, 03:44 AM
Naja002

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

Got ya Naja...........It caught my eye because I've seen small plastic enclosed capacitors in that shape with 4 to 8 spade terminals. The pic looked to me there are 4 terminals on one end,a small space and 4 terminals on the other end.

Sorry ,but it didn't hurt to ask :shrug:......Carry on. :up:

NP at all, Walt. I'm glad and Thank You for asking and pointing it out. :up: In this case it is really simple and straight forward. If I had bothered to look around and pay attention in the past...I could have just eliminated the thermostat/ambient issues I had before. That's done now....:up:

BTW, yes, it is 4 x 4, but there's no connection in between...:up:
03-19-2010, 08:14 AM
wdrzal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naja002

BTW, yes, it is 4 x 4, but there's no connection in between...:up:

yep ^^^^^^ that's exactly how they look,but there is one metal rivet holding each 4x4 down and that rivet is connected to a wire to the capacitor in the plastic block the ones I have seen. I almost missed it myself,I think is was on a chest freezer with about 1/6hp compressor, and a couple small window units.
so the capacitance is between the 2 4x4.

Well that fooled me,but everyone should now know that all capacitors are not round or oval.

This last post is just a heads up for everyone here as XS. China does some strange wiring.