Virtual Purgatory on the Path to the Cloud? | Renegade XS Member Now Bloggs

Renegade XS Member 64NOMIS Bloggs!

Future blogs will be on topics closer to the xtreme but if you are interested in the far future of computing that's what I will be writing about every time. Would enjoy topic suggestions as well - let me know. Here's an excerpt - enjoy and thanks for the support.

http://links.amd.com/9prl

The client must have an individual domain and secure personal knowledge. The Cloud will have a global domain, aggregating the sum of knowledge. The interaction of the Client and the Cloud must abide by strict rules to protect the individual while enabling universal knowledge. Shared intelligence through time will be available on the Cloud and accessed by the Client. At the age of intellectual maturity, each of us will receive and keep our client with us allowing it to know us and to provide access to the collective knowledge of mankind without the burden of screens or socially disruptive interaction with technology in everyday life. When each of us passes, our Client will pass our knowledge, our being, to the Cloud. And we will live forever. - “Inez Drew”

There are two things to know about me. First, I have a muse, who I call Inez. Second, Inez has seen the future.

I understand the utility of ubiquitous data access, a user-friendly, fully synchronized online and offline existence. It may be too much to ask...




EDIT: If there's an issue with this thread by any of the staff please let me know by PM.. Movieman

That's pretty cool I suppose.

Simon:
Just reading your bio..
Your too smart to talk with guys like me!:rofl:

I have mixed feelings about the whole cloud hype. There's no doubt that clouds will become more popular, they are too cost effective not to. But for end user it's not that great. I don't see myself using web to edit text, network latency is way too high. This can be mostly solved by adding more data centres, but having many small ones isn't cheap any more. Synchronizing every character looks like a bad idea then. And because online editors today are implemented in JavaScript, client does much more processing than a server, where's the gain? MS Word 97 was much faster on my Pentium MMX than google apps now. And it was already very bloated with features I never used. High quality media and 3d effects on portable devices that don't even drain battery are cool though.

Also, I don't trust big corporations. Why would I want them to read everything that I type? Or which movies (+when + maybe where) do I watch? IMHO privacy concerns are the biggest show stopper. And I'm not the only one who thinks so, IBM predicts that hybrid clouds will dominate the corporate market.

sounds interesting.. pretty cool one..

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Originally Posted by m^2

I have mixed feelings about the whole cloud hype. There's no doubt that clouds will become more popular, they are too cost effective not to. But for end user it's not that great. I don't see myself using web to edit text, network latency is way too high. This can be mostly solved by adding more data centres, but having many small ones isn't cheap any more. Synchronizing every character looks like a bad idea then. And because online editors today are implemented in JavaScript, client does much more processing than a server, where's the gain? MS Word 97 was much faster on my Pentium MMX than google apps now. And it was already very bloated with features I never used. High quality media and 3d effects on portable devices that don't even drain battery are cool though.

Also, I don't trust big corporations. Why would I want them to read everything that I type? Or which movies (+when + maybe where) do I watch? IMHO privacy concerns are the biggest show stopper. And I'm not the only one who thinks so, IBM predicts that hybrid clouds will dominate the corporate market.

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I agree with all aspects of your stance on this!

Hackers will rape clouds from sky to ground. M^2 is absolutely correct. Privacy concerns will be never ending with cloud solutions.

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Originally Posted by Mechromancer

Hackers will rape clouds from sky to ground. M^2 is absolutely correct. Privacy concerns will be never ending with cloud solutions.

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By that, you mean they aren't "never ending" right now?

It would be a lot of fun to have the definitive dialogue on Cloud computing on XS....

I am thinking about some points in time relative to the privacy and security problem. My attempt to articulate the privacy problem...

A. Security of data warehoused on someone elses drive.
B. Corporate monitoring of data; both the cloud service provider and those who they may share it with.
C. Hacking of cloud service providers and the data services they provide.

The future state proposed by Inez (I am not Inez, for the record):

A. Personal data needs to be stored on a personal client device.
B. Only community data is online; interaction between cleints occurs in the cloud and may be vulnerable to monitoring.
C. A very powerful force will be needed to actively counteract attempts to hack the cloud, monitor the network, and to corrupt the client.

The today and near future state:

A. A lot of our data or the data we seek (to download) is online; online drives are coming and social network sites are coming to store a healthy portion of our personal life. Hence we can be watched by corporations as we obtain the data, and the data already online is a password away from being fully available to hackers.
B. We are vulnerable to both corporate monitoring of online and downloadable content
C. Clients are nearly trivial to hack. The only path to being relatively safe is running the entire PC experience in a virtual machine.


The Cloud state:
A. Most data online; passwords and devices become data gateways potentially availing a hacker of a boatload of user data.
B. More data online; more potential for corporate monitoring but corporate visibility may enable effective user dissent for overly invasive policies.
C. I actually believe my client is more vulnerable than Google. Certainly true of the average, relatively unsecure client. Clouds may be more secure than today's clients.

Choose wisely.

Cloud service is unrealiable at best. Plus you are fully depending on a certain vendor and their ability. Both in terms of security and backup.

Its one of those buzzwords and ideas that will die again.

At best cloud computing can be used for some non important personal stuff.

Another issue is the datacenters to support it. They need to be localized and in reality using more resources than you would elsewhere.

Its like trying to make everyone use terminal services...

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Its like trying to make everyone use terminal services...

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It is the future, no matter how you see it.

Very nice write up Simon :up:

One thing that concerns me about the cloud is security and how things could get out of hand with hackers. I would not want personal data and files sitting some place in the Cloud.

I do like the idea of the Cloud and I think it has its place. Basicly from what I understand is it acts like a viewer on our machine so that we would not need a beefy machine to be able to run apps. on the Cloud ?

I think the Titans need it to happen. And it is a logical extension of where the web is. The client app Titans need a path to go online while defeating privacy and current approaches aren't working too well. The online Titans seeking monetization need lock in.

I don't think its a fad. Could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Cloud service is unrealiable at best. Plus you are fully depending on a certain vendor and their ability. Both in terms of security and backup.

Its one of those buzzwords and ideas that will die again.

At best cloud computing can be used for some non important personal stuff.

Another issue is the datacenters to support it. They need to be localized and in reality using more resources than you would elsewhere.

Its like trying to make everyone use terminal services...

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Sure,

A lot like the web today, expanding the functionality of the client through very powerful online apps which can live online, not necessarily bound to a single domain or server. And those applications can inter-operate further extending the functionality.

If you add rendering, you can theoretically play Crysis (latentcy problems aside) on a cell phone. The promise is to be able to simply span a lot of clients - because the client interface could be very simple or a web browser. However, even browsers can get complex - FLASH and plug-in support for example. Rendering is an extension of core cloud concepts.

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Originally Posted by Buckeye

Very nice write up Simon :up:

One thing that concerns me about the cloud is security and how things could get out of hand with hackers. I would not want personal data and files sitting some place in the Cloud.

I do like the idea of the Cloud and I think it has its place. Basicly from what I understand is it acts like a viewer on our machine so that we would not need a beefy machine to be able to run apps. on the Cloud ?

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Originally Posted by 64NOMIS

C. I actually believe my client is more vulnerable than Google. Certainly true of the average, relatively unsecure client.

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Sure. But there's little gain from hacking your machine.

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Cloud service is unrealiable at best.

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More reliable than what most people have. Google stores all files in 2 copies in different locations. And a checksum to prevent silent data corruption. It's not great because they don't use ECC memory and file can be corrupted before it's sent, but it's still more reliable than what most people use.

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Plus you are fully depending on a certain vendor and their ability. Both in terms of security and backup.

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You can use several vendors and store data in several places. I use online disks as additional backup location already. Well encrypted, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Shintai

At best cloud computing can be used for some non important personal stuff.

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At corporate level we'll be seeing hybrid clouds - use your own for important data and public for what's insignificant. I think (and hope) that with home users it will be similar. But if cloud catches too well we may be unable to buy own computers.

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Originally Posted by Shintai

Its like trying to make everyone use terminal services...

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Exactly. Old idea, isn't it?

Added:

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Originally Posted by 64NOMIS

Sure,

A lot like the web today, expanding the functionality of the client through very powerful online apps which can live online, not necessarily bound to a single domain or server. And those applications can inter-operate further extending the functionality.

If you add rendering, you can theoretically play Crysis (latentcy problems aside) on a cell phone. The promise is to be able to simply span a lot of clients - because the client interface could be very simple or a web browser. However, even browsers can get complex - FLASH and plug-in support for example. Rendering is an extension of core cloud concepts.

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I don't think that Crysis is a good example. It's too fast. Solitaire is more like it. :ROTF:
But MMORPGs should be fine too and they can benefit from graphics even better than Crysis. ;)

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Originally Posted by m^2

Sure. But there's little gain from hacking your machine.

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I concur if we mean hacked by human hands. However, my machine is "hacked" by worms and viruses on a regular basis. The random/viral acts of violence against my client can and have destroyed personal data. They have also rendered my machine utterly useless requiring OS re-install. These are, for all intents and purposes, simply automated "hacks" which lack the precision of a deliberate, nefarious human hand but nevertheless severely compromise client data.

Hence the allure of making this the problem of an organization with more robust security who is able to respond to security threats in real time. Which as we have illustrated has its own problems. In short, at the end of the day, is my data "safer" on a vulnerable (automated, non automated hacking) client or a (also vulnerable) Cloud backed by a well managed data service provider?

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Originally Posted by 64NOMIS

I concur if we mean hacked by human hands. However, my machine is "hacked" by worms and viruses on a regular basis. The random/viral acts of violence against my client can and have destroyed personal data. They have also rendered my machine utterly useless requiring OS re-install. These are, for all intents and purposes, simply automated "hacks" which lack the precision of a deliberate, nefarious human hand but nevertheless severely compromise client data.

Hence the allure of making this the problem of an organization with more robust security who is able to respond to security threats in real time. Which as we have illustrated has its own problems. In short, at the end of the day, is my data "safer" on a vulnerable (automated, non automated hacking) client or a (also vulnerable) Cloud backed by a well managed data service provider?

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You're right, I missed that.

If you want a 100% secure box, keep it offline. Locked in Fort Knox or some other security area would be preferable. However, I prefer powerful clients becasue it's my hobby and I like to run many programs offline. That said, Cloud Computing has piqued my interest and I will learn more it about before I make a judgment, as right now I know very little on the subject.

As other's have said security as always, should remain the largest concern in the corporate world. I consider gov'ts to be a type of corporate body as well. There is already a small amount to a large amount of personal sensitive data on networks and some people still have reservations about online banking or purchasing online. Granted most breaches that I am familiar with have been inside jobs by disgruntled employees or simple, careless mistakes.

I do think a cloud computing discussion would be of interesting if we XS'ers can stick to fact-suppported arguments or express intelligent opinions.

--Chris

OT: 64NOMIS, why do you say you're a renegade XS member?

I assume I would have to pay every time I want to use a program hosted on the cloud? Or pay a fee for a monthly usage, or maybe lifetime usage? If you go with a terminal theory and no end user client at all, the cloud would have to be constantly updated with newest drivers for any peripheral device as well.

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Originally Posted by Power5

I assume I would have to pay every time I want to use a program hosted on the cloud? Or pay a fee for a monthly usage, or maybe lifetime usage? If you go with a terminal theory and no end user client at all, the cloud would have to be constantly updated with newest drivers for any peripheral device as well.

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For applications which the web already covers, the Cloud may need to provide similar functionality, so I think the answer is, it cannot do the same things the web does and charge more money. For new applications, hard to say. Expect more business model innovation...with a mix of success and failure...

Cloud is the future and is already showing in a few places..

The problem is the regulations and bandwidth restrictions being placed on the 'net by those who think they know best..

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Originally Posted by STEvil

Cloud is the future and is already showing in a few places..

The problem is the regulations and bandwidth restrictions being placed on the 'net by those who think they know best..

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Indeed.

L4D has a "Cloud" system where you can save your game settings online.

didnt mean L4D, but its an ok laymans example I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FacYAI6DY0

Basically Larry Ellison thinks Clouds are marketing hogwash.

Of course, Larry doesn't may not care...

- if his database is being hit by a million clients or a server a million times (any app)
- if the client app accessing the database had to be written 20 times for 20 clients rather than once for every client (*oogle Maps)
- if the client had to synchronize with his database 50 times in 3 hours (email app)
- if the client had to run a proprietary database and synchronize with a different proprietary database 50 times in 3 hours (email app and enterprise archive)

I almost believed him...

I see the advantages for cloud computing are very similar to the advantages of thin clients and server-based computing:

- Ease of security
- Lower hardware costs
- Less energy consumption
- More efficient use of computing resources

The biggest problem I see is there will too much reliance on the network. When dealing with multimedia rich and bandwidth intensive applications like video gaming and video editing I don't see these being cloud computing applicable any time soon.

I also see that cloud computing service providers will demand a cost for hardware and software as a service a month as opposed to an upfront cost for a laptop or desktop.

Ease of security? No. Even then turning your machine into a zombie makes sense. It just won't do things itself but use cloud for it. OTOH spamming would be harder, cloud shouldn't allow any client to send emails in too large numbers.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/p...xth_sense.html

I think this is a good fit with the concepts at play in Cloud Computing.

Yeah, that will be great when they can slim down the interface a bit. Maybe an bluetooth earbud device that has a camera and projector integrated with the typical phone usage.

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Originally Posted by Firestrider

I see the advantages for cloud computing are very similar to the advantages of thin clients and server-based computing:

- Ease of security
- Lower hardware costs
- Less energy consumption
- More efficient use of computing resources

The biggest problem I see is there will too much reliance on the network. When dealing with multimedia rich and bandwidth intensive applications like video gaming and video editing I don't see these being cloud computing applicable any time soon.

I also see that cloud computing service providers will demand a cost for hardware and software as a service a month as opposed to an upfront cost for a laptop or desktop.

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Cloud computing will be dependent on the program. Some would benefit (wiki/multi user input-like structure, others will not (rendering).

Server-client based programs (example: World Community Grid/ Folding@home, etc) are a good start model to show how to handle some things.

Other things will be handled by a "base" PC in a user's home which clients would connect to for things which require more compute power or faster response times (latency related).

I don't believe in the cloud, why? simply put, as more and more isps around the world come up with harsher traffic restrictions every day it simply won't be possible.

First you need to get the isps to stop the whole limiting madness, then we can talk about the cloud again.

Hi, welcome to the thin client model of the 80's. Have a nice stay.

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Originally Posted by naokaji

I don't believe in the cloud, why? simply put, as more and more isps around the world come up with harsher traffic restrictions every day it simply won't be possible.

First you need to get the isps to stop the whole limiting madness, then we can talk about the cloud again.

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Exactly, that is why the online offline model is problematic - synchronization crossing wired and wireless links. At some point, the crosstalk between the client and the server, and the client burden (one popular email client comes to mind) for database synchronization, becomes huge. Hence the allure of rendering in the Cloud and never having to ship more bits than that required to broadcast high quaility video. And that tech is already getting deployed or working today.

at work we're currently migrating our desktop pcs to thin clients using citrix farms.

simply put: for an average worker in a corporation environment such models are very good, but there's no way i'd ever (EVER) use smth like that with my pcs at home. especially because i want to have full control over EVERYTHING i use. cloud computing CAN be useful, if you're often at different places and using apps in a cloud while just needing a browser on the local machine is nice, but that's it.

i don't even want to use cloud computing on a cell phone.

it is kind of funny in the IT. back in the past we already had different models of centralized computing, e.g. the HOST times back then. after that everyone switched to de-centralized computing and now we're slowly going back to the centralized computing we saw 20 years ago.
if cloud computing really takes off, i predict it to last for only as much as a decade after which we'll be switching everything back to de-centralized computing again. it's like a sinus curve, we're switching forth and back continuesly.

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Originally Posted by 64NOMIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FacYAI6DY0

Basically Larry Ellison thinks Clouds are marketing hogwash.

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i liked that video :rofl:

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Originally Posted by naokaji

First you need to get the isps to stop the whole limiting madness, then we can talk about the cloud again.

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Also, not everyone runs fibre or even ADSL. There are still millions of people on dialup.

More hardware = cloud

I understand the premise, but when cell phones have 64 gig and running on dual-cores.. you apps will be licensed to you and you can use them wherever.

The central nervous center (aka Internet) is pathetically behind the times and still using copper for the most part.

Better internet protocols + hardware = cloud

No need to make autonomous apps.