Printable View
We are glad to announce the release of the Caldera 4870X2 hybrid cooling system for AMD's HD4870X2 reference design graphics cards.
http://www.swiftech.com/products/Cal...ing-system.asp
Shipping to resellers will begin this coming Monday.
MSRP is $159.95, water-block and heatsink included.
Just to be certain water never comes in contact with the aluminum correct?
correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspire.comptech
why is it the same price as the EK nickle block, shouldent it be about the price of the xspc block since its a hybrid so it should be cheaper in theory
and if u trim the stock unisink would the culdera block work on it
looks good very cool idea.
Agree on the first part. Way over priced. The heatsink doesn't get cooled by the water blocks, you are not adding any sinks to the back of the board for the memory on the other side. The EK nickel is the same price, the Koolance and DD are $20 less and the XSPC is $60-$70 less depending on where you get it from.Quote:
Originally Posted by zanzabar
And to boot the name is still upside down and yes you can see it, especially in a horizontally mounted MB.
:shakes: :shakes: :shakes:
Just 2 questions:does it fit in a single pci slot, and is performance on par with a pair of mcw60's?
I really like that the vram isn't cooled by the water, but I also agree way over priced. I love swiftech products, all very high quality, but this isn't worth it. The stealth blocks were much more attractive imo.
and aluminumy:rofl::rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chruschef
I never commented on how good they were. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
I certainly never owned one.
What makes this design better than other similar products to warrant the higher price? The most expensive material; copper; has been significantly reduced and should allow for a less expensive product. The only benefit I see is not dumping the mem/vreg heat into the loop but in turn forces you to use a fan to move the heat into the case. I like the idea of the heatsink if it is used in conjunction with standard/re-usable blocks, but all of this is tied to one single card. This option makes no sense in cost or function. The only possible upside I see is bling factor, which I think is important for a good deal of people but not put ahead of overall performance and cost.
Please explain to me where I am wrong? I did not set out to attack this product, I just can't seem to find a place for it, this late and this pricey.
Also on the heatsink the grooves go up and down, not side to side, so air from a fan will not travel down the grooves. Correct me if I am wrong.
Don't mean to add to the bad vibes, but damn, that thing is you-gee-el-why. I knew I was getting a lump of coal for Christmas, but I didn't know it was coming this early.
Utnorris, explain to me how you can see the name when the motherboard is installed normally:Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
http://www.swiftech.com/assets/image...-installed.jpg
Now, if the motherboard is installed upside down, as is possible in several high-end cases, this is what you see:
http://www.swiftech.com/assets/image...4870X2x400.jpg
So if you mean to criticize how the name is oriented because in Desktop PC's it would be upside down, then I ask: how many enthusiasts use tricked dekstop PC's (with windows for example) as opposed to towers?
Just give me one valid example please, because I would really like to understand where you are coming from.
I think this is the same question you asked once before. The card stock retention bracket uses two slots. It doesn't matter how much space the cooler takes since the card itself will use two slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by _G_
But in the event you decided to cut the card' stock retention bracket with a dremel in order to free up the second slot, then I suppose that question becomes relevant. I'll have to double-check if there is enough space to do that, but I suspect there might be.
Performance: yes the C/W is exactly the same as the MCW60 since we use the MCW60 copper base. The pressure drop will be higher that of the MCW60 simply because you have the extra 90 degree elbow dictated by the inlet/outlet orientation. That is true for all full-cover blocks.
Im guessing he meant on horizontal motherboards like in the MM cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
There for it would look like this:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...4870X2x400.jpg
ding ding ding, we have a wiener :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Apollo4g
yeah I think the log is indeed upside down for horizontal mobos, however it is correct for inverted ATX which is a MUCH more common configuration despite what you mm owners may think. :fact:
will this work on a 4850X2???
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
Haha very true, was just clarifying what he meant. :)
Ok. So how many MM owners are interested see a cover option with the name cut in the other direction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollo4g
The product is late indeed. Nothing I can do about that unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam217
GPU cooling performance is superior by design to any other full cover on the market, but not better than individual blocks such as the MCW60 or the Fuzion; in fact flow restriction is worse than these solutions, for the reason I explained earlier (the extra 90 degree elbow dictated by inlet/outlet orientation), but this is something full cover owners have accepted as a compromise.
Price is a reflection of the small quantity we made for what I see as a "limited edition". On the other hand, people who like the design and the added performance, and who spend over $500 on a card shouldn't worry that much whether the product is at the high-end of the price spectrum by a few bucks.
I have a DD Torture rack and I see his point but what the hell else do you expect when something like 5% of enthusiasts even, will never really look at that logo?
Methinks its time for an MM with an inverted horizontal mobo :rofl::ROTF:
If this just uses the MCW60 base, is there any chance that the 'shell' will be released at a lower price? Or that in a year hte 5870 X2 (guessing at the name) will have a new 'shell' for sale (say $50) and we can just pop the bases into it?
SNiiPE, I see you have a 4870x2 + single 4870. How's is that working for you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
I am thinking of doing that for our demo system (which I also use for some gaming whenever I have time)?
I saw a review where trifire with 4870x2 + 48701gb was the best performing option. I am bleeding my test bench loop with the GTZ and both 4870 and 4870x2 right now ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
do you have a link to that review by any chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by SNiiPE_DoGG
One example, Mountain Mods Horizon case or a UF2O CYO with horizontal MB tray, I guess that is two. My point is that it would have been just as easy for you to flip the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
not if my objective was to reach inverted motherboard users; thus my earlier question: how many MM/UFO users out there would be interest in seeing an inverted logo? if none, then its a moot point. if enough, then it's indeed easy enough to make a few to satisfy the demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
Granted, the the ones with a case where it would be seen is limited, however this is something I stated over two months ago in the original thread. And since this isn't a block that normal people would buy, your words not mine, I would think that more would own a high end case like a MM than not. More and more people are doing horizontal MB trays to show off their equipment, is it more than 5-10%, probably not, but how many are doing a high end water cooling setup compared to a basic setup? At that price it is considered high end, not main stream, not when you can get a XSPC full cover block for under a $100. Therefore the group you would be catering too would want to show off the block and having that big ole name on the side upside down just would not look right. Every one else has placed the name right side up, DD, Koolance, EK and even XSPC, so please do not tell me it is not something people care about. Price the item around the XSPC block price and you won't here a peep out of me, put it in the range of the most expensive cooler on the market and you are going to hear me say something about the details such as the logo orientaion, sorry if that offends some.
So this was aimed at Tagan case owners?Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
lets be real norris, there are 10 times more inverted atx owners than total mm owners combined. the LL v series has been around for as long as I can remember and there were other before itQuote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
I am afraid you are misinterpreting my words. I would never use "normality" to qualify different groups of users. So these are not my words. What I said was that people who spend $500 on a card shouldnt mind spending a few more bucks for a high performance block if they like the design. There is neither inference nor reference to normality one way or the other in this sentence, but there is reference to socio economic status.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
Someone recently flammed me for using unverified statistics. So be careful about using numbers here, or you might get crushed by vox populis. Good thing you presented it as a question though. Again, I threw the ball back in your court: how many ppl are interested? The inference is if enough, I will do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
What's the MSRP on the XSPC? You can only compare MSRP, not market price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
I do not wish to make any comments on competition in this context; let's just say that I question the validity of this assertion. Oh, and BTW, all Swiftech GPU water-blocks have the Swiftech logo in the same orientation. No one has ever complained about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
Damn that's a lot of money, I can buy a lot of ram sinks for that to go with the mcw 60...
that's right, and our system allows you to set up just anything you can imagine:Quote:
Originally Posted by road-runner
(2) 60's with ramsinks
(2) 60's with caldera-HS
(1) caldera complete system
the point is: you have a choice.
this card is very popular. we are hoping to offer alternative configurations to fit different budgets.
Since I already have the mcw 60s I think that is the way I will go when I water cool them in the very near future... :up:
a perfectly viable solution :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by road-runner
It is, can't wait for it to show up at some of the WCing sites. :) This it the last step for me to complete my new build.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I do have a question for you Gabe. Are you able to give us a estimate of how popular this system will have to be for you to make a new shell when the next gen of the X2 blocks come out? It would be nice to be able to save the copper and other parts and just slap on a new shell for the next couple generations of cards.
Would like to see some numbers of this setup vs a full cover from EK or Danger Den with temps for core and memory. Looking for one for my 4870X2 but am leaning toward a full cover just because it does cool the memory and vregs. Since I run two loops I am not worried about the heat dump. My video card will only be sharing the water with my Blackops NB block...
Gabe, any inside fotos?
its mcw60 with water channels, seems pretty straight forward to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldogPO
it is difficult to predict because that depends on how the next generation graphics cards will be designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baenwort
But I can assure you that we do try to lower cost of ownership anytime we can:
example: when we made the obsidian, we worked out an adjustable mounting system that made the block compatible with 8800 (G92) and 9800..
another example: we have embraced the hybrid full cover heatsink + water-block concept because it allows us to make more economical solutions. The extruded GTX200 heatsink is a good glimpse of things to come price-wise; unfortunately the Caldera heatsink could not be extruded for this first release; but the next generation Caldera heatsink will.
will take some this week and add to site.Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldogPO
I interpreted the fact that you stated "people who spend $500 on a card shouldnt mind spending a few more bucks for a high performance block if they like the design" as being along the same lines as people that spend $500 on a video card which is not the norm. Most people are in the price range of the 260 or 4670. Therefore this is considered a high end product by association.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I only threw out the numbers in response to ones that were already thrown out and as a question since I do not know the exact figure. But based on yours and other poster's previous responses, MM users would amount to very little. On top of that you threw out the inverted MB tray users as focus group, which like the MM users would not be many. Therefore I would not imagine the number of users of those two segments to be more than 10-15% although as I stated before I do not have the exact numbers and was only throwing it out as a response to someone else's claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
When the price of a product is sold by virtually every outlet at that price that becomes the de facto MSRP. Either that or these retailers are taking huge losses on the XSPC full cover block.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Show me one other product in the Swiftech line up that displays the logo that big with lights. The design is obviously there to show off the logo, otherwise why include an LED to display it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I understand you may not like the criticism of the products price, functionality and cosmetics. In some ways it is a well designed block, however, when EK made blocks without standoffs, they didn't get a free ride based on their past history. When Koolance puts out fittings that rust they do not get a free ride. When BP put out fittings with issues they didn't get a free ride. They took the criticism and either redesigned their solutions or took it into consideration for future products. Swiftech is no different. I stated this before, both this and the MCW60 HD4870 block solution could have been set up as an upgrade path for current users of MCW60's and Swiftech chose not to do that and therefore I will not give them a free ride on details that could have been easily fixed early on. It would be different if it was at a lower price point, at which point I would except minor flaws, but being sold at the high end of the market I will not give a free ride to the fact that the logo is upside down, the heat sink channels do not allow air to flow across them nor does the design allow for the water block to help cool the heat sink and it does not allow for current users of the MCW60 to upgrade. Some manufactures post on here when new products are released and except that there will be feedback good and bad, so that they can get access to a niche market, and I don't think anyone would disagree that this is a niche market. Take the criticism constructively and use it or don't. I have always been a Swiftech supporter and have recommended them to others. I started off with Swiftech products, the H2O-120 was my first setup. Then the Apogee GT with a MCR220 and MCW60. I then added a second MCW60 and a second MCR220 for a second loop with a second MCP355. When the GTZ came out, I was one of the few that defended it when it was compared to the D-Tek Fuzion. The reason I liked Swiftech was because of the value to performance ratio and the upgrade path with which Swiftech has always done with their designs, even you mention this. However I consider this and the MCW60 HD4870 a blatant slap in the face to all MCW60 users that cannot upgrade to these solutions because they are not sold as an upgrade path but as a complete solution only and at a price that in my eyes is not competitive with other solutions on the market and with obvious design flaws.
I just wanted to make one comment and question on the position of the logo. Was this done on purpose or was this a oversight that noone really noticed until the design was already submitted to the manufacturers? It seems like something so simple as the orientation of a logo that can simply be corrected by reprogramming the water jet machine to cut it out in the upright position. But if your manufacturer has already made say, 500 of these then it's obviously to late.
I don't think there are enough MM owners or other horizontal mounted cases like the various danger den torture racks or test bench beds, who just happen to own a 4870X2 and just happen to be in the market for a full cover block, in the market for such a water cooling solution to warrant the change. I would say it would be less than 10 people. But i do have to admit. Someone may do a review later on in a open bench stand like we see everyday on here, with your new block and the logo upside down is just going to stick out like a sore eye. Especially if it's all lit up and glowing.
Gabe....Well done. Releasing products now is a bold and brave move. The price is pretty good, I would like to see some temperatures though cause then we could totally compare it to the EK nickel blocks. This block looks awesome and you should be very happy ;)
I for one like the industrial look of the non countersunk screws. And who cares about the logo orientation? I expected better from the folks here at XS...
Maybe you should use an ambigram the next time? That would be a nice touch.
Nice block and nice price. Good job, Swiftech :up:
I think it this block is pretty innovative myself. If this was out when I redid my system, I would have got it (if I had the 4870X2, I just have the 4870). Would love to see a 4870 version of this as well. I know it doesn't make logical sense to do so, but the plumbing of a full cover (barbs vertical rather than horizontal) is much more appealing to many, including me. AS much as I love my MCW60 I am tired of the plumbing :( And to those of you moaning about price, I see many of you spending substantially more on fittings... The other thing to read into here is that the block uses MCW60 bases... when the 'next' card comes out which is sure to be a different configuration which will require a new card entirely, perhaps Swiftech will again employ the same bases and then offer the 'shell' of the card to a user with bases already at a lower price point than the whole thing. To me, this is the beginning of a modular full cover block and I love the idea.
Can't believe there's this huge argument over the orientation of the logo. If the argument was over teh orientation of the ramsink fins, I understand, but a logo.......
Swiftech logo could be spelled backwards for all I care as long as it performs well :p:
I'm interested to see the VRM temperatures with this heat-sink combination.
I'm surprised how bad this product launch has gone. :(
Then again, swiftech's fullcover solutions haven't been the best. The stealth blocks had Alu, the obsidian was VERY unattractive, the caldera is a lil over priced.
MCW60+Ramsinks = Win
so no idea about weather or not it will fit the 4850X2?
I agree. If the reason for going hybrid is to be economical, why is the product so expensive? At that price-point I'd rather get a real full cover block to cool the entire card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam217
well you need to measure the die spacing on the 4850 x2 with some calipers dont you? if you do I will caliper my 4870x2 for you for comparison numbersQuote:
Originally Posted by philbrown23
Ok noob question: Will 1/2 3/4 fittings fit or will the bottom lip hit the card (inner side facing top of case) like the rest of the full coverage blocks on the market?
The unique spacing of the inlet/outlets from each other makes this an ideal block for my specific confined space and the above fitting would make it perfect high price and all.
Still would like comparisons of this to other blocks. And was thinking this was designed to be modular. If you buy this caldera and the heatsink base, your pretty much not going to be able to use either part for future builds unless it is two dies on a board with the same spacing, right? Unless you go with MCW-60's.. So why not get a full cover and cool everything? You would be out the same amount of money when you go to a new card anyway..
The difference is the heat from the memory/vrms will not be introduced into the loop like a true full cover. It will give you better temps where it matters the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken
On an HD4870x2 the memory needs to be cooled sufficiently also, otherwise you will get artifacts and will be limited on the overclocking you can do. This is one my issues with this block since the grooves go up and down and not side to side to allow airflow between the grooves which would cool the memory better. On a full cover block since everything is cooled by the loop, there is no need for airflow. Yes, you will have more heat dumped into the loop, but if your loop is good this should only add a few degrees at most. I went from using two MCW60's on two HD4850's in a loop to a full cover block on a HD4870x2 and my temps only increased a few degrees.
can we buy that heatsink with out the waterblock ? i was thinking about useing 2 MCW60's ...
Yes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Adonay
yes,Quote:
Originally Posted by Adonay
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/Caldera-HS.asp
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/imag...-4870x2-hs.jpg
What is your everyday overclock on your 4870X2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
There would be a very minimal difference having the grooves side->side vs up->down. Use a decent exhaust fan to scavenge, and no worries - the key here is to have positive airflow across the heatsink, watercooling is viewed by to many from a theoretical perspective. It's the same with aircooling and heatsink orientation, if you have a good exhaust system, it doesn't really make a difference of more than 1 or 2 deg C on final temps.Quote:
This is one my issues with this block since the grooves go up and down and not side to side to allow airflow between the grooves which would cool the memory better. On a full cover block since everything is cooled by the loop, there is no need for airflow.
In the real world, this is neglible, with absolutely zero impact on overclockability or system performance.
One very positive aspect of Gabe's design, which is overlooked by the proponents of a "full" waterblock, is that you will get better contact on the components to be cooled. When these cards are manufactured, and components are flow-soldered in the solder-baths, they do not sit 100% flat - meaning, the bigger surface area and ore components, the better the chances for crappy contact.
I will rather have seperate blocks for the GPu's, like in this case, and then something for the rest. Yes, you still need a fan this way, but I'll rather have a fan and waterblocks and get better cooling on ALL the components vs a full block, and the possibility of no contact on some critical component.
The best would be seperate blocks for all components, i.e memory sinks, GPU blocks, mosfet sinks, etc....
IMHO, the full-blocks does a pretty good job, but you will always get better average temps with individual (and properly selected) blocks and heatsinks.
Anyway, just my 2c, but it might be good to look at ViperJohn's attemps and kits he's selling for the NVidia cards - ever wondered why he gone down the path he did cooling his cards?
So yes, Gabe's Caldera and seperate GPU-blocks design will be better than a full-coverage block, and slightly worse than a indivdual component block - all else being equal.
At the end, we have to be thankful that we have 3 options we can exercise.
It's up to you to choose what suits your application best, and what suits your's best, may not necessarily be the best for the next guy.
Enjoy ;)
Excellent analysis. The trick parts with individual components are the mosfets. Very tiny, and hard to have thermal tape stick due to small surface. That's ppl biggest complaint. Whenever I setup with individual sinks, I use silver epoxy, but ppl don't like that because if takes all kind of tricks to make it so you can remove them in case of need, therefore jeopardizing warranty. It all boils down to convenience. Whenever possible it is good to have specialized sinks that can be fastened to card, like the 8800 and 9800 mosfet sinks that we made for GeForce 8800 and 9800 series, but this was only made possible by the location of the mounting screws on the board. If you have no anchor points, you can't use a bolt on sink, and you are left gluing..Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBean
The success of full coverage blocks is a result of a compromise between cooling, convenience, and bling. At Swiftech, we try to emphasize cooling efficiency/capacity where it is most needed versus convenience and bling. The key word here being "emphasize", not set aside..meaning that we don't discard these factors, but rather we prioritize performance over them.
Commercially, I realize that this is a handicap, because we spend more time doing research and design than the other guys, which causes us to be late in shipping, and it is also a handicap because it seems that the majority of users in this particular VGA cooling sector favor bling and convenience versus performance. I understand that the reason is in fact quite simple: if you are not volt-modding, then a few degrees may not matter. This argument in itself should push us towards doing more like the other vendors, but there is one last thing I didn't mention above: we don't like doing like everyone else. Each new project to us is an excuse to exercise creativity and search for new ways to do better. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, but each time we try.
Just 800/950 (750/900 stock), but it's about what I did with the 2 HD4850's percentage wise. Since I am not pushing more voltage through either setup the heat output really didn't increase in that sense. I admit I am not really pushing my cards, but the shear fact that temps were close between the too says something for itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Sweet waterblock. :)
It would be nice to see how it performs compared to the Koolance-block (VID-487X2). :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by philbrown23
+1 on that. There ought to be a market for the 4850x2's also, or one would think so....
That one is an oddball video card since there is only one company producing them. The best solution will probably be 2 MCW60's or equivalent with heat sinks.
Does the heatsink come included in the packaging? :)
for the 2nd time in this thread, yesQuote:
Originally Posted by LockBreaker
Sorry for asking then....
What types of accessories comes with the GPU-block? Maybe those are listed here before as well? :)
from the swiftech site...
Complete cooling system including water-block, heatsink, (2) 1/2" barbs, (2) plugs, thermal pads, Arctic Céramique thermal grease, mounting screws, installation guide
Well, I guess not everyone thinks the $160 price is worth it. For anyone looking at this block, Jab-tech has them at $140. I still think the XSPC or any of the Full Cover blocks are better, but I know some you will still want it, at least this way you can save a few dollars getting it.
Hi all!
My account was validated today so I can post up my Caldera in Crossfire pics. I frequently visit this place but have never had an account. So, here I am.
Do I like the Caldera solution? Yes. Am I very biased towards Swiftech and only use their products. Yes. My GPU's idle at 29-33 degrees.
Thanks!
Tom
ps-the Caldera doesn't work on Asus's new Tri-Fan card. I went back to Sapphire. I'm glad I did. If anyone is interested how much better Sapphire builds their cards in regards to pasting and thermal pad contact, let me know.
Hey TomMich Nice! Could you run a FurMark benchmark while logging in the background with GPU-Z? I would love to compare it with my AC AquagratiX on my 4870X2.
Hi Broken,
For some silly reason, my 3DMark06 crashes upon entering the firefly test. I have no idea why and have tried everything. I'm probably one of the few using a 160 X 25 multiplier on my i7 Extreme with Windows XP. LOL! Yea, gonna break down and get x64 vista soon. Then, we'll run some Vantage tests. I'm achieving decent results on low voltages on the chip. I'm a die hard G.Skill fan and have their 3X2 Pi kit. It's performing as expected.
Game on! :)
Thanks,
Tom
Sorry, I was talking Furmark:
http://www.ozone3d.net/benchmarks/fur/
I am mainly interested in what your temps are during the benchmark...
Oh, I didn't know about that one! Yea, I'll give that puppy a try when I get home. Stay tuned for results...
Thanks,
Tom
your using 2 x 4870x2's with windows xp?? quadfire only works in vista right?
Yea, I think you're right. :) Bummer, eh? It does recognize both cards (shows linked status as "true"), but, I do not believe it utilizes them. I'm probably going to experiment with Vista 64. It's difficult for me to switch...i've probably downgraded 50 laptops to XP
Thanks,
Tom
This doesn't seem right... I had the error saying to rename the .exe, which I did.
Don't rename, just disable Catalyst AI in CCC. This is one of those apps that you need to do that.
Nice innovative block, MCW60 + Sinks onto one block = winner ;). I wish there was a full cover block for 4850.
Price seems alright, since its has 2x MCW60s.
What are guys vrm temps under load with the caldera?
Gabe, are you guys going to make one for the GTX 295 too?
Just wanted to remind you about it so you don't forget. :p:
wow those blocks are looking good
I'm getting a max VRM temp of 75-76C with a ambi of 20-21C when running furmark. I think I need to remount the HS but I haven't had a day off with the PC since I did the install.