ALU cpu block experiment

if you read alot of post in the liquid section, you see alof of hate towards alu. and some say its not that bad and they have no corrosion.
this leaves some questionmarks, is it realy that bad... or not.

i work daily with aluminium and i own a cnc milling machine which i reasently upgraded with new axis for more precision.
so i thought, let me try to make an alu cpu block and use high grade antifreeze and see if i get corrosion over time.
i have some brass in stock as well so i could have made one from brass as well but he, thats no science, boring.

components used in watersetup:
pump: Laing DDC-1Plus MCP355 12V
top: XSPC Laing DDC Acrylic Reservoir
radiator: (copper) pa120.3
tubing: ordinairy 3/8 tubing.
fittings: 3/8 EK High Flow
liquid: yanmar high grade antifreeze

my first experiment was with water, i putted some tap water in the reservoir.
this was a few months ago and today i picked it up from the corner where i left it and there was some weird white gunk against the acryl and in the water.
so that confirmed that water is an absolute no go. kinda spoiled my reservoir to.

cpu block:
the cpu block is my own design and i had no plans to start with.
its all entered manual in the cnc machine and made it all up as i wenth forward.
base is 3mm thick and the waterchannels are 4mm deep.
the holder that keeps it on the cpu is from a freezer pro 64.
i adjusted the total thickness of the cpu block to this cooler so it would fit.

experiences after mounting:
when i started it up, i noticed a temp drop straight away under idle, under load it was about 7 degree lower, with only 1 slow turning blower on the pa120.3.
so an alu block works better then a freezer 64 pro. :p:
i found that that if i put the 5000be on 1ghz with 0.8 volt, that i could turn of the pump, now this is very very nice. during the night i can leave it off without worrieng about leakage or anything.
i do need to point a blower towards the cpu though, temp under idle remains 30 degree with pump off. :D
cpu is an amd 5000 be normaly running max at 3ghz here and speed is regulated by cristalcpuid.

after a few months i hope to open this cpu block and see what has happened with it. my guess right now with this type of antifreeze that it would be ok.
the color of the antifreeze is a bit weird, but i got it for free so i dont care. :p:

The PA120.3 is not copper. It's brass.

Which means you have no copper in your loop.

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Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin.[2] Despite this distinction, some types of brasses are called bronzes. Brass is a substitutional alloy.

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From wikipedia

OK, no copper but copper+zinc.
What is the difference in usage between brass and copper?

well it doesn't look like theres any copper in your loop so doesn't that mean no chance of corrosion?

and brass + alu is better then copper + alu ?

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Originally Posted by aspire.comptech

The PA120.3 is not copper. It's brass.

Which means you have no copper in your loop.

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I was thinking the same but as he is using industrial tractor coolant in the test loop I am betting it would be just fine in either case.

Brass and Alu is better than Copper and Alu.

Take a look at the galvanic tables for proof.

It still isn't ideal and will eventually lead to corrosion, but far slower than with copper.

Plus running antifreeze essentially prevents corrosion in a water cooling loop. It just isn't an ideal coolant in that water performs better.

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Originally Posted by geoffsthaboss

well it doesn't look like theres any copper in your loop so doesn't that mean no chance of corrosion?

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brass is an ALLOY made of COPPER + ZINC

so i think that there is more than enough copper in the loop :D

To the OP, when you are done testing that block or if you have a second I would be happy to use it on an older pc I have here (939 socket) although it's current rad is aluminum (LOL) so it would be pointless for testing but it would last forever.

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Originally Posted by hellcamino

To the OP, when you are done testing that block or if you have a second I would be happy to use it on an older pc I have here (939 socket) although it's current rad is aluminum (LOL) so it would be pointless for testing but it would last forever.

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not pointless just all aluminum which would bee nice to see how well it preforms.

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Originally Posted by demonkevy666

not pointless just all aluminum which is would bee nice to see how well it preforms.

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True enough but again I think it would do well, the main consideration would be electrolysis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hellcamino

To the OP, when you are done testing that block or if you have a second I would be happy to use it on an older pc I have here (939 socket) although it's current rad is aluminum (LOL) so it would be pointless for testing but it would last forever.

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testing could take quiet some time.
for example, i left the acryl top with water to rot for over 3 months to see what happens to it.
after this i could test with some distilled water. and see if it cools better in the first place. that water cools better peaked my curiosity :p:.
but this block does fit in an envelope though, so no crazy shipping costs. if you have your own waterconnectors i could send it to you. dont know if you are still interested by then.

let me tell you why theres a lot of hated to ALU.

Its because not a lot of people can pull it off right. What does right mean? it means ALU block, ALU Rad. Not one bit of copper should be inside your loop.

Now why do we stop most threads which try to promote alu? Because XS attracts a TON of newbies who want to get watercooling done. What do you think a newbie will do when he see's that XS is ALU free? He will know ALU is not a good thing. Also what happens when a newbie posts alu threads? Guys like me imediately go in and find out if he is a noob or not.

This is why i destory alu threads which newbie's posted. We are trying to snuff out ALU entirely, i dont care if its a possitive post or not, the fact if we present it, it will TEMPT companies like Koolance, Innovotek, and motherboard companies to re introduce ALU.

This is a big nono for the 90% of us. That is why we kill alu threads. So vendors who do read though the threads automatically see,

ALU = WE GO CRAZY ON A NAZI WITCH HUNT and BURN YOUR COMPANY.

Now Your RAD will corrode your alu. There is no doubt in that. Ive seen it happen enough to know. Its true you have less forms or pure copper so it will happen slower, but that defeats the point that it wont happen.

Now your a custom builder so i wont sit here and pick on why you using alu, instead since you can mill your own stuff, i'll point you in how to get a alu setup done right.

First off ditch your rad, or your asking for it.
Get a koolance radiator and sub it with that.

Also you need Massive static on alu rads vs copper rads, so get a good fan.
Lastly, dont even think of adding any copper stuff, adding additives on alu parts will only bring you down to air unless your water is chilled.

Meaning you can match an alu setup with a true120 extreme with good fans.

Which brings us back to 1, alu is pointless.

I put a lot of work in getting rid of alu. Koolance as i said is even trying to transition there rads from alu to copper. So if someone destorys my 6months of work on this forum, I'll seriously get pissed.

Ok Naekuh, take it easy bro.

Here is someone who has done his reading, is aware of the climate and general opinion here and is doing his own testing to find out for himself. I reckon that's fantastic, and i applaud it.

We all know that mixing metals isn't a good idea, and thankfully everyone is pretty much in agreement on that. Sure, a corrosion inhibitor will slow the process down, but with a performance hit.

Good job BertM, seems you have some skills on the CNC machine! :cool:

tx :p:

like i sad, i have a brass block here out of which i could also have milled this.
i didnt make this to oc the hell out of my comp.
and again like i sad, 1 in this thread says it will be fine, 1 says not.
and thats why i made this block.

@Naekuh, I had a vivid image of your head spinning around there, did you get any of the green projectile vomit on your screen? ROFL

@OP, let me know via pm if/when you are ready to part with that block or another like it, the radiator I would attach it to is a koolance btw.

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Originally Posted by hellcamino

@Naekuh, I had a vivid image of your head spinning around there, did you get any of the green projectile vomit on your screen? ROFL

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no but i picked this out of my ear, does it count? :rofl:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_1156.jpg

Okey i wont rant anymore, OP, change your rad to this:

http://www.koolance.com/water-coolin...product_id=237

http://www.koolance.com/water-coolin...-ex002p_p0.jpg

thats a bit blury. :)
but your missing the point. i want to use mixed metals to see what happens.
if a full copper radiator would increase the change corrosion, i will buy a copper radiator.
my first watercooling which i made in 2001 was all copper and an open system and it worked ok for 3 years with plain tap water. didnt even know others where also working with watercooling when i started it.
tubing whent from crystal clear to 'no able to see thru' but it kept on working.
now i made one again but this time with mixed metals and i just want to see what happens to it if i threath it right.

@Naekuh, the image in my mind was better lol.

@Bert, get a feser if you want an all copper radiator.

those are to expensive, a cheap one will be ok , it doesnt need to have good performance.

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Originally Posted by BertM

thats a bit blury. :)
but your missing the point. i want to use mixed metals to see what happens.
if a full copper radiator would increase the change corrosion, i will buy a copper radiator.
my first watercooling which i made in 2001 was all copper and an open system and it worked ok for 3 years with plain tap water. didnt even know others where also working with watercooling when i started it.
tubing whent from crystal clear to 'no able to see thru' but it kept on working.
now i made one again but this time with mixed metals and i just want to see what happens to it if i threath it right.

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I really should re-read up on my electrochemistry, but if what I remember is right, you'll see pitting on the Al block if corrosion occurs, but you technically won't be able to see the deposits on the brass unless you saw the radiator open right?

Here is a good link to a galvanic corrosion table showing anodic indexes. Brass is pretty darn close to copper, but if you use a good corrosion blocker it could resist the problem for a pretty long time, who knows..

http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm

I might be able to save you some time with your testing but that's not to say you shouldn't carry on as i love things like this..........but i'd personally like to see how it would stand up with some of the fluids that are around today :up:

Five or six years ago (maybe longer) in the day of the DD Maze 3 and Z-Chip block i did a similar test.

Basically replacing the Lucite tops with bear aluminium but remembering there was only really Water Wetter and Zerex around at the time to protect from galvanic corrosion.

Anyway it was an all copper loop apart from the aluminium tops which i ran with Water Wetter and deionised water for a few months.

Clear to see galvanic corrosion taking place from the pictures - aluminium from the tops was literally corroding and fixing itself to the copper leaving pit marks and craters in the bear aluminium tops.

The copper base is grey in colour due to the aluminium and no amount of Ketchup or vinegar will ever get that off :eek:

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/...s/maze_3_1.jpg

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/...s/maze_3_2.jpg

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/...s/maze_3_3.jpg

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/...s/maze_3_4.jpg

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=23792

i remember that being a lot cheaper tho.

like 59.99. :shrug:

Save the PA120.3 and go buy a alu rad, plenty around, because killing that PA is gonna cost more then just replacing the Rad with a ALU one... do yourself a favour and listen to NaeKuh ;)

Cor blimey CM! Those are some of the best pics yet (of corrosion).

To the OP: Ask yourself, do you want to kill that PA for the sake of a test, or would you rather just get an alu rad for peace of mind?

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Originally Posted by twwen2

Cor blimey CM! Those are some of the best pics yet (of corrosion).

To the OP: Ask yourself, do you want to kill that PA for the sake of a test, or would you rather just get an alu rad for peace of mind?

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As long as he is using a heavy antifreeze mix it will likely last decades.

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Originally Posted by hellcamino

As long as he is using a heavy antifreeze mix it will likely last decades.

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And perform a lot worse than just water.

tx for all the replies.
wow that is some serious corrosion you have there.
that almost (or did ) made that block leak.

nah i dont mind sacrificieng some efficiency from the pa120.3
i keep it running like this for some time.
and lol i guess i was a bit sleepy, i already have 3 full copper radiators.
2 are way to getto (old car radiators) and the other is a XSPC RS120 Black.

i have some distilled water, i will use that later with a corrosion blocker.

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Originally Posted by aspire.comptech

And perform a lot worse than just water.

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Yep.

Well Bert, like you said if you're happy to sacrifice some performance/efficiency by using corrosion-inhibitors, then i'm genuinely interested to see how long it will take before the PA starts showing the dreaded signs.

Be sure to share your results after some time. :)

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Originally Posted by aspire.comptech

And perform a lot worse than just water.

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Yeah it will probably run 1-2c hotter :shock2:.

Antifreeze FTW!
Who cares about 1-2c lol!

When it's essentially 2C for free That's a pretty big deal. Especially considering the difference in performance between a $40 block and a $70 block is less than that.

I see where you're coming from with that but realistically 2C can be lost / found with a simple remount of the CPU block. (and thats if we are even talking 2C)

You would find a more significant decrease by using a DD CXP Pro rather than a DDC through heat dump alone.

What that would equate to in real time day to day usage would be a better question IMO

The difference between a DD CPX Pro and a DDC is not 2C.

Oh good grief, the OP is just trying to see what it takes to keep corrosion under control. Give it a rest on all the arguments on why he should/shouldn't do it, the bottom line is you cannot stop him but griping in his test thread could alienate him. I am interested in his results myself.

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Originally Posted by aspire.comptech

The difference between a DD CPX Pro and a DDC is not 2C.

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Careful now, he might just know what he's talking about! :p:
I'm sure CM doesn't mean 2c exactly, but what he's saying is that by using a weaker pump ala CPX-pro, you get less heat dump and in the right circumstances (like an un-restrictive loop), better temps.

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Originally Posted by aspire.comptech

The difference between a DD CPX Pro and a DDC is not 2C.

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Yeah i know, its more ;)

Results after 3 hours:
DDC 18watt 3.2 = 37.9
CPX-Pro = 29.4

Source - Pump Heat Dump

isn't that test without fans running?

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Originally Posted by Boogerlad

isn't that test without fans running?

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Sure is.

I honestly have NEVER had a problem running ALU in a loop as long as the ALU is not touching copper or brass directly. Every time I had ALU bolted to copper (original Dtek GPU block), it ended up with major corrosion.

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Originally Posted by ownage

Antifreeze FTW!
Who cares about 1-2c lol!

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You would be surprised.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coolmiester

Yeah i know, its more ;)

Results after 3 hours:
DDC 18watt 3.2 = 37.9
CPX-Pro = 29.4

Source - Pump Heat Dump

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Ok, fair enough, assuming minimal restriction, and no fans on the radiator a CPX might run cooler than a DDC, but throw a loop like mine on it, and goodbye to whatever lead the heat dump contributed.

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Originally Posted by RickCain

I honestly have NEVER had a problem running ALU in a loop as long as the ALU is not touching copper or brass directly. Every time I had ALU bolted to copper (original Dtek GPU block), it ended up with major corrosion.

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Interesting. I don't doubt your experiences one bit, but there are enough people who have had trouble mixing metals for us to discourage the practice.

As NaeKuh said, someone with enough knowledge about galvanic corrosion and methods to avoid them can do it. However, not everyone is knowledgeable in this area so it's better to use scarecrows to avoid people touching aluminium at all.

Remember that fluids will become a conductor after it pick up enough ions from prolonged use so even if we don't bolt aluminium and copper together, there is still some galvanic process going.

Hey, I for one really wanna see how this all tips up. I'm beginning testing of something that will blow minds here, and I think this is very important to what I'm doing.

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Originally Posted by Xilikon

Remember that fluids will become a conductor after it pick up enough ions from prolonged use so even if we don't bolt aluminium and copper together, there is still some galvanic process going.

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Agreed! Maybe I was lucky or smart enough to use a fluid that prolonged the process longer than the fluid/block was in the loop.

It does seem like we see more problems with alu that is bolted to copper than just alu in the loop though.

if im not mistaken, im using red/pink YG30 coolant that is based on OAT which stands for organic acid technology. i got it for free from a leftover for a new engine.
here is some reading about oat: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_e.html
basicly it has a longer lifespan.

i did not do research on the latest coolants sold for computer systems, maybe that has equal properties.

the ddc does indeed put some heat into the system. im now running without any blowers and the pump is running. the pa120.3 is convection cooled. cpu temp is 30 degree. same as if i turn of the pump and point a blower onto the cpu block. this is under idle cpu conditions. this is nowhere near possible under load.
the idle test with blower pointed on the mobo took 12 hours and the pump on test took 3 hours now. still going.

here are the results of the aluminium cooling block that has been constantly used for 5.5 years.
i turned my computer off only for maintenance few times.
there is no corrosion at all, i have seen worse results from copper coolers.

edit: i did nothing with the fluid, it has been running the same fluid for this time as well.
i added +/- 100ml after 3 years, it seemed the level dropped a bit.

moments after i drained the liquid
http://i.imgur.com/PLcBrL5.jpg

immidiatly opened it up and it is now seeing sunlight again after 5.5 years.
http://i.imgur.com/xJXN7lp.jpg

and whiped it clean:
http://i.imgur.com/VFOzsuj.jpg

Blast from the past! :D

I read the thread, but can you confirm exactly which radiator and coolant you used?

i used a high quality glycol coolant.
not mixed with water.

radiator was the thermochill pa120.3.