[work-log] Mini-cascade R-507/R-1150

This is a cascade i've been building for a month or two (on and off, mostly off due to € shortage), it's main purpose will be dual-core benching, those small compressors are too weak to cool anything hotter anyway. All components are brand new except for the oil sep which i got dirt cheap on eBay.

As the project went on i was forced to buy myself my own equipment which took me some time since my budget doesn't stretch as i would like.

High temperature stage:
- compressor: Danfoss NL11F (1/3HP)
- condensor: Empor 0.72kW (200mm, three-row) + 10W 220Vac motor + 200mm fan blade
- filter/drier: Castel 20g /w service port
- refrigerant: R-507
- metering device: TC-28 (0.7mm ID) capilarity tube

Interstage heat exchanger:
- 10-plate stainless steel (rated up to 5kW water-water)

Low temperature stage:
- compressor: Danfoss NL11F (1/3HP)
- desuperheater / oil cooler: Empor 0.72kW (230mm, one-row) + 10W 220Vac motor + 230mm fan blade
- oil separator: Danfoss OUB-1 (floated)
- filter/drier: Danfoss 40g copper
- refrigerant: R-1150 - ethene / ethylene
- metering device: TC-31 (0.8mm ID) capilarity tube
- 2m stainless steel flexible suction line
- evaporator: tiborrr's Maze GT1 EE (extreme edition)

Safety:
- Ranco high pressure cut-off @ 27bar (on low temperature stage)
- 2x high pressure bourdon type pressure gauge Wigam
- Fach 0.9L receiver to act as an expansion tank 0.9L on low temp. stage

Initial preparations - lining up the component on a mock-up board:
http://shrani.si/t/3e/D5/D3Ekjer/dsc0798.jpg http://shrani.si/t/e/l7/2adYwQd/dsc0797.jpg http://shrani.si/t/1G/R5/1bc6slnc/dsc0796.jpg

Backbone of this cascade - 3mm steel plate:
http://shrani.si/t/14/41/1oWgG62f/nosilnaplosca.jpg

The evaporator / suction line / safety - HPCO:
http://shrani.si/t/3y/O1/4yxmnisE/dsc1069.jpg http://shrani.si/t/2V/ru/nUf9Ivh/dsc1068.jpg http://shrani.si/t/40/s7/39pEtTMb/dsc0794.jpg http://shrani.si/t/X/12T/1Og6iDYC/dsc0793.jpg

Manual hot gas bypass (to compressor, not into evaporator) - ball valve:
http://shrani.si/t/1n/Mj/1A34TJzW/dsc1051.jpg

Temperature monitoring - K-types & Voltcraft K102 K-type thermometer:
http://shrani.si/t/1I/V6/2aN1V8jP/dsc1049.jpg http://shrani.si/t/z/nY/2KyOLwFB/dsc1056.jpg

Interstage heat-exchanger enclosure is made out of scrap wood - three major plates are 5mm, rest is 2mm:
http://shrani.si/t/2R/H7/3uFoyBW6/dsc1059.jpg http://shrani.si/t/3o/Rh/ImtoNxL/dsc1057.jpg http://shrani.si/t/3d/11O/1nXXFzlx/dsc1060.jpg

Brazing the first stage:
http://shrani.si/t/2J/uZ/3xYtRq7j/dsc1062.jpg http://shrani.si/t/D/11w/1AkBLnad/dsc1066.jpg http://shrani.si/t/k/lB/4t6bAOEH/dsc1064.jpg http://shrani.si/t/42/27/1Z5a8HeP/dsc1071.jpg http://shrani.si/t/3K/Dg/4RdEQHr1/dsc1072.jpg

First frost on first stage @ ~ -43°C:
http://shrani.si/t/1H/cp/3VccCzCV/dsc1073.jpg http://shrani.si/t/1W/u1/vUv5f3T/dsc1076.jpg http://shrani.si/t/3Z/CM/1yIEEGxB/dsc1074.jpg http://shrani.si/t/3h/2X/1Ezpj4hc/dsc1075.jpg

Insulated with poliurethane foam (great specs, temperature conductivity ~ 0.039W/mK, neoprene has 0.036W/mK) it does ~ -53°C:
http://shrani.si/t/39/81/eO55P4Z/dsc1077.jpg http://shrani.si/t/A/NI/16T6Dir1/dsc1078.jpg

Ran out of oxygene to complete the second stage. Will continue the next weekend as i am away from home during the week.

Best regards,
Niko :up:

looks good:up:, cant wait to see some temps:D on the sec stage

nice!

about time you posted this in a proper log!

What wattage will you tune it to?

cheers

Thank you, EliTE22! :yepp:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by teyber

nice!

about time you posted this in a proper log!

What wattage will you tune it to?

cheers

---

Thanks Teyber, i am planing on ~ 250W load holding ability, perhaps few watts more. Should be about -90°C to -95°C at 180-200W? :shrug:

Here's the other equipment i use:
- Wigam Turboset 90 mini welding kit (MAPP/oxygen)
- Refco BM2-8-DS manifold
- no-name industrial single-stage Vacuum pump (3cfm, 1/4HP, rated to go down to 10Pa, enough for the application we use i think) - get one for ~ 108€ here

http://shrani.si/t/Q/5f/1a3xKpUl/dscn1059.jpg http://shrani.si/t/1U/Qu/2X5VOd73/dscn1058.jpg

Thanks for reading,
N. :up:

This is a very nice setup!

I keep my fingers crossed for the -100°C-border :)

Regards,

Philipp

PS: And be careful with the ethylene!

Nice looking unit, man :up:

Should 0.72kW condenser on high temperature stage be enough for 250W load? I think you need no less then 1.5kW or I am wrong?

Thanks PhillipF, i do have similar hopes :yepp: I will take extra caution when dealing with ethylene.

@Crazy666: These compressor draw about ~230W on idle each, so they aren't power hungry horses most of you guys use here. So two 0.72kW condensors (one acting only as gas cooler - desuperheater) should be enough. I know that gas cooling isn't as efficient as liquid cooling but it should do it's job - dump low temperature stage's heat of compression so there is substantially less heat (of compression) needed to be transferred to high temperature stage.

Well, at least that is my theory.

Thanks for your kind support! Greetings,
N. :up:

I've VERY interested to see how NL11F will cope with R1150 , I've thought about it in past but never checked :).

How long captube 0.7mm You have on 1st stage ?

I'm very worried about size of condenser in 1st stage :rolleyes:...

From where You get this poliurethane sheets ?

Looks to be VERY interesting project :up: :clap: :clap: :clap:.

looking good tiborrr would love to see you pull it off with these comps

i can see yo have put some thought into the layout it shows

baz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by piotres

I've VERY interested to see how NL11F will cope with R1150 , I've thought about it in past but never checked :).

How long captube 0.7mm You have on 1st stage ?

I'm very worried about size of condenser in 1st stage :rolleyes:...

From where You get this poliurethane sheets ?

Looks to be VERY interesting project :up: :clap: :clap: :clap:.

---

Hi there Peter,

i seem to remember cold_ice once tried 2x NL11F cascade with even smaller condensors, they did pretty well, i seem to recall he benched P4 Cedar Mill at 6GHz+ with it.

Cap tube is 1.9m or 1.95m.

Condensors, as i've have written in my earlier posts should suffice and the low temperature stage's desuperheater should be enough to dissipate the heat of compression. At least that's the theory :up:

These aren't poliurethane sheets, this is poliurethane foam in pressurized can, works very well! The manufacturer is Slovenian TKK, commercial name is Tekapur (PDF about the programme in Slovenian language, you should be able to understand the most important parts).

Quote:

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looking good tiborrr would love to see you pull it off with these comps

i can see yo have put some thought into the layout it shows

baz

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Hi bazx,

thank you very much. They should do decent job with dual-core chips, but only time will tell. Yeah, i've tried to minimize the footprint of this cascade as much as possible while still using a fairly large desuperheater / gas cooler on the low temperature stage.


Thanks for the interest guys, will keep this thread up-to-date :yepp:

Greetings from Slovenia,
Niko :up:

looks good, interested what sort of load it can move when its finished, good luck

@kayl: Thank you very much, i hope i'll be able to answer to this question by the end of the weekend.

P.S.: Brazing stuff stash restored, i bought one extra fuel (lasts about 3.5h) & one extra oxygen (lasts about 30min) can just to be safe. :P

http://shrani.si/t/2r/zu/1UHa2hZf/dscn1063.jpg

Kind Regards,
Niko

niko, you need a real oxy bottle, using this crap one is a pita, check the pm or come on msn;)

Hehe, thanks Dimas, we will talk tomorrow about it! ;)

I made some progress today, brazed everything except evap, cap tube to exp. tank, compressor- and two HX ports on 2nd stage, which will be done tomorrow, i am too tired to go on tonight (it's 3 AM here):


http://shrani.si/t//bN/3EtHVBxi/dsc1088.jpg http://shrani.si/t/1h/Uu/1ZUsBckw/dsc1089.jpg http://shrani.si/t/37/SI/13R8A3LV/dsc1090.jpg

Kind Regards,
Niko

Nice project, I'm waiting for finish :D

tiborrr, very nice cascade!

Thanks bartx & godmod, now let's see if this baby can run some decent temperatures! :yepp:

2nd stage is now brazed except for the CPU evaporator (i am missinge one T-line 8mm), i bought whole fist of them but cannot find them now. Perhaps tomorrow :shrug: Everything is now positioned on the final chassis board.

http://shrani.si/t/2i/123/cOA2hG2/dsc1091.jpg http://shrani.si/t/e/Ns/380bSSgP/dsc1092.jpg

Kind regards,
Niko :up:

You might want to fix the suction line on the chassis, the way it is now looks like it could vibrate strongly...

looking good, Might be fine the way it is, but bit of a coil on the second stage suction line before the compressor would of allowed for excess refrigerant to boil off before returning to the compressor, and not to freeze the compressor with all that cold return.
remember doing a small cascade and having the same problem, just have to play with refrigerant charges to ensure this doesnt happen

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...22&postcount=5

@godmod: No worries, it will be attached to the chassis appropriately which will strenghten the whole suction line aswell. Thanks for the tip anyway :up:

@kayl: Humm, you just might be right, we'll see what will hapen, it can still be modified later but with 2 metre suction line i hope returning liquified refrigerant won't be an issue.

Thanks once again.

Regards,
Niko :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tiborrr

i seem to remember cold_ice once tried 2x NL11F cascade with even smaller condensors, they did pretty well, i seem to recall he benched P4 Cedar Mill at 6GHz+ with it.

---

Yes, Cold_ice made one:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=81841

Overklokk once did a cascade with small compressors as well:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=123264

Cooling capacity and the ethylene pressure will be problematic with such small compressors tho´

Good luck anyway :up:

Thank you Jack, let's hope it will all work out. Unfortunately i couldn't find any T-line couple, i guess i really run out of them :( So the charging will have to wait for next weekend as I am again away from home from monday to friday. All threaded joints are secured with appropriate amount of LeakLock sealant so there shouldn't be any leakage on the second stage now. Also I will have to buy some more of this armaflex self-adhesive tape.

I've also insulated the flexible suction line, man this sucker really is LONG 8-O:
http://shrani.si/t/37/cF/kXlHImC/dsc1093.jpg http://shrani.si/t/46/Fi/LFGLAX6/dsc1094.jpg http://shrani.si/t/28/hg/4eoM5XzA/dsc1095.jpg

Best Regards,
Niko :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack

Overklokk once did a cascade with small compressors as well:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=123264

Cooling capacity and the ethylene pressure will be problematic with such small compressors tho´

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That's why I'm afraid :rolleyes:. We'll see how this cascade will perform . :up:

The steel chassis frame has been completed, i may need to repaint it one more time and the original chassis plate is now being scraped for a wooden plate. 2nd stage charging will begin this weekend to come.

http://shrani.si/t/L/q5/1WldI9Wd/dsc1161.jpg http://shrani.si/t/1E/AF/4vWnA01I/dsc1162.jpg http://shrani.si/t/t/hY/4hdeyJom/dsc1163.jpg http://shrani.si/t/x/9x/15Ic5xVL/dsc1164.jpg

looks great! im confused though, why a frame if no case? and if your doing a case why the manometers above the case?

nice job there buddy :)

Hi,

yeah, manometres will be bend so they will fit well below the frame, i just did not find any time to bend them :). I still need one more wooden plate to cover the top. Frame is basically there to make transportation of the case easier. Now i can carry this cascade by myself, before not even two people could carry it comfortably because you couldn't get the grip properly.

Thanks again, teyber!

Best regards,
Niko :up:

Very professional work Niko :up: I am excited also to see the finish. ;)

Hope you have better luck tuning such a build than I had. Had a huge issue with the 1st stage not getting the HX cold enough and resulting in insane 2nd stage pressures. I ended up cheating and dropping in a 1/2 hp rotary compressor :D

wern't you using the nf5.5clx.2 though?

I started with an NF9FX and NF5.5CLX and ended up with a 1/2hp rotary on the 1st stage and an FF12HBX on the 2nd stage.

Thanks everyone! :cool:

-100°C club on uninsulated cascade (massive heat loss due to almost 120°C deltaT):

http://www.shrani.si/f/L/eO/2DgVatGi/dsc02604.jpg

1.stage (R-507):
HP: 13bar
LP: 1.4bar
static pressure: 10.5bar

2.stage (R-1150):
HP: 16.5bar
LP: 1bar
static pressure: 11bar

First stage is probably fairly overcharged (1.stage cap is now trimmed to ~ 1.7m 0.7mm), will tune more when unit gets insulated.

http://www.shrani.si/t/C/ge/fkXH4n6/dsc02578.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/3F/MI/1ydtfUkH/dsc02579.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/T/By/3J0Ck846/1/dsc02580.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/2F/Lp/1S6IdG5v/1/dsc02582.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/1W/CA/1f1DDWtk/1/dsc02607.jpg

YouTube video: :yepp:

http://www.shrani.si/f/1J/Ff/2HQkndY...skadathumb.png

P.S.: Piotres, sorry, i hadn't had time to check PM's, will read them later today. Sorry for delay, bro'! :up:

Hi

-100 is nice but ...

Why You haven't wrapped captube over flex hose, only use some nylon strips to hold it ? that should help with some subcooling gain ...

16.5 bara without load on 2nd stage is quite high, I'm afraid with 200+W load put on evaporator this pressure will go to near 20 bara which will be too much for NL11F ...

but we'll see.

No problem with PM, I'm not in hurry too.

Regards

Hi,

I have wrapped captube around suction as much as i could, it's just my suction is very long (2m) and i'm using 0.8mm capilarity tube. I am guessing that this exposed evaporator & tubing already makes high load.

Evaporator:
Q = m * c * dT
Q = 0.5kg * 0.385 kJ/kgK * 120K = 23.1kJ (needs about 5min to pulldown)

P = 23.1kJ / 300s = ~ 77W average heat load

We have to add the heat loss from flex hose (2m), filter/drier on 2nd stage and crapload of tubing (also on first stage suction). I am guessing i am already putting more than 100W of load on cascade. We will see how the ethylene pressures are going to be once the cascade is insulated and only then re-tuned :up: For my first cascade build i think i did a fairly decent job, don't you think so?

Best Regards,
Niko

nice work there tiborrr, love the music sets the scene when your hitting -100c :clap:

Hehe nice video now I saw it ;) Yes fine captube is wrapped I see that on video ;) . In case of such long suction line 0.9mm captube is good choose or even 1.0 mm . Only I don't like music on video ;)

Haha, thanks kayl & Piotres! :p: Tomorrow i'm off to local HVAC/R shop to get some neoprene insulation tubing in order to mount them on Wednesday when i return home!

Best regards until the next batch of photos! :yepp:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tiborrr

Hi,

I have wrapped captube around suction as much as i could, it's just my suction is very long (2m) and i'm using 0.8mm capilarity tube. I am guessing that this exposed evaporator & tubing already makes high load.

Evaporator:
Q = m * c * dT
Q = 0.5kg * 0.385 kJ/kgK * 120K = 23.1kJ (needs about 5min to pulldown)

P = 23.1kJ / 300s = ~ 77W average heat load

We have to add the heat loss from flex hose (2m), filter/drier on 2nd stage and crapload of tubing (also on first stage suction). I am guessing i am already putting more than 100W of load on cascade. We will see how the ethylene pressures are going to be once the cascade is insulated and only then re-tuned :up: For my first cascade build i think i did a fairly decent job, don't you think so?

Best Regards,
Niko

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The job is very nice, the choice of components "isn't really" (it could be worse of course) ;).
What's the suction temperature of the first stage? Still near -35°C unloaded? nl11f is a LBP R134a compressor, it's not supposed to run with R507c and even less at "high" suction temperature. You made a good choice with the decent condenser of first stage, we'll see once the system is loaded but you will run near the motor limits, maybe on both stages :(
Keep up the good work :up:

congrats dude!

time for you to PM a mod for the -100c club :)

and you need a new avatar :)

Ok I give up :) I dont see the pictures or the video am I simply missing it somehow?

Thanks for your input, Clemmaster! I hope that by tomorrow when I insulate everything about the discharge pressures & suction temperatures will be known. :yepp:

@teyber: Thanks a bunch, dude! I will do as told :up:

@sdumper: Check out post #31. If for some reasons pictures aren't displaying for you, i can upload them to imageshack.us too.
Here's a link to YT directly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcSpCnwgzFk

Thanks once again to everyone for their input, thoughts and critics! :clap:

Best Regards,
Niko

Youtube worked fine!! Great job :)
Thanks man something weird is going on maybe its my browser:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...89-27-52AM.jpg

Nice to see finished unit :up: -100C looks serious :)

Thanks guys, this means a lot to me! :yepp:

Today I brought home insulation tubing needed to properly insulate this cascade, but it will have to wait until tomorrow morning due to Christmas celebration.

http://www.shrani.si/t/27/12b/4GNE1Z9i/dsc1441.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/2D/y1/2I44xljU/dsc1442.jpg

Retention clip is made by Duniek, backplate was made by LittleDevil. Great work you two! :up:

P.S.: @sdumper: I hope you see the images now.

Regards,
N.

Great results, and very cool demo video :up:

And to think that is without any insulation.

Well let's hope that it satisfies this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dUZU...eature=related

(found it on same page as your youtube video)

@mytek: Haha, i seen that before :rofl: Thanks for your kind words :up:

Moonman & myself have insulated the cascade (still without it's maiden name):
http://www.shrani.si/t/43/qr/MqCrcdJ/dsc02610.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/3E/E8/41eWexaE/dsc02611.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/1e/YX/1FQV7nk5/dsc02612.jpg

Discharge pressures have dropped now significantly:

1.stage:
HP: 10bar
2.stage:
HP: 12.5-13bar :up:

These chineese K-probes report about 10°C higher temperatures (around -93°C).

tiborrr
Beautiful unit, I’m envying you :)
Good work :up:

Mini-cascade hold cca. 204W load at ~ 83°C, idle -92°C (measured with cheap chinese probe, that's about ~ -93°C, idle cca. -102°C), pressures are as followed:

1.stage:
HP: 14bar

2.stage:
HP: 17.8bar

Heating device - C2D E8600 CPU priming @ 5550MHz, 1.72V :yepp::
http://www.shrani.si/t/2n/vu/osaI4Z1/dsc02634.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/3s/uT/2zu1BTGx/dsc02635.jpg http://www.shrani.si/t/18/2P/487Arj9M/dsc02636.jpg

We couldn't have tested more than ~ 205W load due to instability of the CPU. We will soon higher heat load with Pentium 4 641 and also try to replace the probe with more accurate (brown as shown in previous post) one next time we disassemble evaporator hold-down.

Best regards,
tiborrr & Moonman :up:

What probe You name as a "good" one (and where did You buy it) ??

Do You have dummy load ? If not it's worth building ...I'm very interested to see how dual NL11F will cope with 210-250W dummyload :)

Regards
Peter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tiborrr

P.S.: @sdumper: I hope you see the images now.

Regards,
N.

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Yep and it looks great!!

Very nice work :)

Hi Peter!
No, i don't have a load tester, i'm an overclocker not a builder so dummyload doesn't mean much to me :) The old probe is made by sharp out of thick K-line (chromel/alumel), it shows around -190°C submerged into liquid nitrogen, these cheap ones stop at around -173°C under LN2.

Will try ~ cca. 250W load with P4 641, but i think that's about the maximum for this system. It's funny, but i couldn't get more than 205W of heatload stable, processor just didn't want to cooperate :D Ofcourse, as i stated in the first post - this is dual-core benching cascade so 200-250W is over the head.

@sdumper: Thank you very much :up:

Best regards,
Niko

Temperature Probe made by himself ? :eek: Can You write me about this ? Interesting :yepp:.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by piotres

Temperature Probe made by himself ? :eek: Can You write me about this ? Interesting :yepp:.

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they are made using the "connecter", wire, and a very special tig welder, ask detroitac about this hes very familiar with it. The special tig welder doesn't contaminate the material and is accurate, you can use a modded computer power supply to do it but its not super accurate

This is inspiring work/ .You have made an amazing looking Unit there.

hey dude, how much did you pay for the ethylene and how much ethylene did you buy?

thanks :)

Ethylene was bought at Messer, it's a 3.7kg bottle, i do not know if there are any Messer distribution centres there in the States. Around ~ 110€ excluding pressure regulator and bottle rental.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by teyber

hey dude, how much did you pay for the ethylene and how much ethylene did you buy?

thanks :)

---

Go check out Airgas. I got 5 pounds for $105 delivered, bottle rental fee of around $15/month. I need to switch over to a yearly plan though. I'd suggest doing the same :up:

awsome thanks tiborr :)

i was offered a 10 pound (~ 4.5kg i think) for $300 then $250 for the cylinder, i was offered 1 pound for $200. problem is i don't want to spend $550 for ethylene not including regulator hehe. Gomeler me wants... 5 pounds is ~ 100 cubic feet no? I gotta find a part number for that one....

cheers and sorry for thread jack :)

How come the table is wrapped in plastic? :p:

@teyber: No problem bro! :)

@Duzter: Hey, the table was brand new, it was not intended for benching purposes anyway so i tried to keep it scratch free :)

Best Regards,
Niko :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tiborrr;

@Duzter: Hey, the table was brand new, it was not intended for benching purposes anyway so i tried to keep it scratch free :)

Best Regards,
Niko :up:

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hehe i thougth it was some kind of anti spill catcher but its not on the screen lol :) j/k

good work on the cascade :)

Hahaha! Thanks Carl :)

P.S.: This cascade is now up for sale: http://www.ocbay.net/auction_details...tion_id=100039 . I need funds for my next project :up:

Regards,
N.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tiborrr

Hahaha! Thanks Carl :)

P.S.: This cascade is now up for sale: http://www.ocbay.net/auction_details...tion_id=100039 . I need funds for my next project :up:

Regards,
N.

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hope you get over 2x the starting amount :shocked:

personal info in the auction is lacking, and a pic goes a LONG way into selling, you may wish to rectify this. and put in ebay as well. I want to know who you are, and ruffly where you are, and such. more info int he auction the better, but care full not too much info!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony

personal info in the auction is lacking, and a pic goes a LONG way into selling, you may wish to rectify this. and put in ebay as well. I want to know who you are, and ruffly where you are, and such. more info int he auction the better, but care full not too much info!

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did you read further down?

just making sure