Fan's & Rads & shrouds

I have a question about fans and rads, is there a method for messuring the air flow that exits a rad? I am going to get a UFO case and two Thermchill 3 fan rads, I am also going to buy Delta 252 CFM fans for rad side what faces the inside of the case. The plan is to stick 6 LED fans (Low noise high CFM) on the otherside of the RAD since Delta doesn't make LED ones and the air flow exiting the rad in all likely hood will not be 252 CFM. Does anyone know what the air flow will be or know how to figure it out?

I am also thinking of putting shrouds on but do them make them with a slope on the edges?

THanks
Leathal

Man - your gonna need some ear plugs for that Box! :) or a Massive Fan Controller!

But seriously - I would be worried with a 252 delta on one side and a cheap LED fan on the other - for the simple fact of possibly burning up the LED fan. (I dunno though, that just makes since to me. Doesnt mean Im right)

But your in for some serious cooling if you have enough HEAT LOAD. But with the PA120.3 series and SUPER HIGH cfm fans. You will reach a point of diminishing returns. Meaning your only gonna cool so much, per fan noise ratio.

Post some pics when you up and running!

& Good Luck!

RoB

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Originally Posted by XS_RoB

Man - your gonna need some ear plugs for that Box! :) or a Massive Fan Controller!

But seriously - I would be worried with a 252 delta on one side and a cheap LED fan on the other - for the simple fact of possibly burning up the LED fan. (I dunno though, that just makes since to me. Doesnt mean Im right)

But your in for some serious cooling if you have enough HEAT LOAD. But with the PA120.3 series and SUPER HIGH cfm fans. You will reach a point of diminishing returns. Meaning your only gonna cool so much, per fan noise ratio.

Post some pics when you up and running!

& Good Luck!

RoB

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Agreed you can only cool so much until you have to get into using a liquid coolant of some type. :)

I wish there was a away to cancel out some of the noise.

Leathal

Why pair high speed deltas with thermochills? Does not compute. The PA series wasn't designed for that. A hardware labs GTX radiator is what you should be looking at. But even on the GTX you are going to have diminishing returns at those speeds. Is the computer going to be in a different room from the monitor and keyboard? Are you just planning to bench with this setup?

As for the shroud, I'm not even sure they are available anymore. Unless you plan to order direct form Thermochill in England. I am currently making a shroud myself using 1/8" plywood, a 4 1/2" hole saw, and 1/2" x 1/16" inch aluminum bar for making L brackets. Be aware that the consensus at the moment seems to be that pull/pull is a bit better than push/pull. Seems like pull/pull or even pull/pull/pull with a 4" deep shroud (to avoid the hub shadow effect) would be a nearly ideal setup. The Thermochill shroud is only 40mm deep and I am skeptical that that is enough to avoid the hub shadow effect. So it is probably better to make your own anyway. I'm not sure what you mean by a slope on the edges and I can't imagine why you would want anything other than an airtight box with perfectly straight sides for your shroud. Another problem you may want to think about is your shroud seal. I'm having a bit of trouble with that myself

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Originally Posted by gojirasan

Why pair high speed deltas with thermochills? Does not compute. The PA series wasn't designed for that. A hardware labs GTX radiator is what you should be looking at. But even on the GTX you are going to have diminishing returns at those speeds. Is the computer going to be in a different room from the monitor and keyboard? Are you just planning to bench with this setup?

As for the shroud, I'm not even sure they are available anymore. Unless you plan to order direct form Thermochill in England. I am currently making a shroud myself using 1/8" plywood, a 4 1/2" hole saw, and 1/2" x 1/16" inch aluminum bar for making L brackets. Be aware that the consensus at the moment seems to be that pull/pull is a bit better than push/pull. Seems like pull/pull or even pull/pull/pull with a 4" deep shroud (to avoid the hub shadow effect) would be a nearly ideal setup. The Thermochill shroud is only 40mm deep and I am skeptical that that is enough to avoid the hub shadow effect. So it is probably better to make your own anyway. I'm not sure what you mean by a slope on the edges and I can't imagine why you would want anything other than an airtight box with perfectly straight sides for your shroud. Another problem you may want to think about is your shroud seal. I'm having a bit of trouble with that myself

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Plan to run it on my room. :-)

What do you suggestion then for fans? I was thinking of taking the coolant from one rad and running it through another one before running it through the system. Finding fans at 110CFM that are quiet is hard, also the 90CFM ones that are listed on CoolerMaster's website are only available in Europe and not in North America, so do you think I could find a place online that sells them in Europe? NO. I even email their Netherlands office who "read" my email but never replied. (sigh)

LEathal

What on earth are u planning to cool? with 2 120.3 rads all u need is yate loon fans. even if ur cooling a quad and 2 high end video card. You can even run them at a lower speed and get almost complete silence.

I would say Ultra Kaze 3000RPM or if you have a bit more cash the Sanyo Denki San Ace. Either fan is quite loud at 12 volts. I have the San Ace and to me it is bearable at full speed, but not pleasant. I have the 2000 RPM version of the ultra kaze so I'm not sure how loud the 3000rpm version is but Martin has described it as vacuum cleaner like. Frankly I'm not sure the San Ace is really worth it at nearly 3 times the price of the Ultra Kaze.

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

PA120.3's were designed for <100 cfm fans... The point of the PA rad, is the effectiveness it has at cooling with low speed fans...

Pull/pull or push/pull is also uneccessary. It's all about the static pressure...

I have (3) PA120.3's with (9) Yate Loon D-12SM fans in a pull configuration...

Nicx has plenty of PA shrnuds in stock...

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Hey HEY! :)

You are the same guy who is building a new UFO case aren't you? It looks like you have some kind of damping spacer between the fans and the rads, is this true and what have you go?

My plan is to do a push and pull setup with blue LED fans to be on the front of the rads pulling the air out while the ones on the back pushing the air through.

The fastest fans I have found that are pretty quiet are the Coolermaster performance fans - 90CFM / 19dBa (I think). The problem is I don't know were to get them, I have seen a few sites in co.nz thta sell them but since I live in Canada I don't know which ones I can trust.

I contacted CoolerMaster netherlands/germany office asking them for suppliers that would carry them, then read my message but never got back to me... how coolermaster makes money is beyond me!

LEathal

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

That would be me...

Yate Loon makes some very nice LED fans, check them out on Petrastechshop.com

If you go push/pull, IMO you'll be doing more harm than good. PULL is the perfered method.

I bought extra TC neoprene gaskets and plan on using them like this... case/gasket/rad/shroud/gasket/fan...

Hope this helped...

UFO's 120mm fan hole's are cut for Thermochill rads, if you insist on going push/pull you'd be better off using a Black Ice rad...

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Why is push and pull not good?

Leathal

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

If you go push/pull, IMO you'll be doing more harm than good. PULL is the perfered method.

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I've read lots of opinions on push\pull, but I can't say I've ever heard that this configuration was in any way or degree, harmful. If fact I read an article, which I tried to find before posting, that indicated that push/pull increases air flow through a rad by a substantial degree.

I'm running 6 Noctua P12's on a PA 120.3, case>fans>gasket>rad>shroud>fans, and my temps across the load spectrum are sterling, and this with 54CFM fans.

A 252CFM fan paired with 50CFM fans will behave just like the 252CFM fan...or within like 1-2&#37;. There might be some weird noise though.

I don't understand what's bad with push/pull either? Every test I've ever done (both anecdotal and published) shows a nice increase in airflow with matched and nearly-matched fans for not much more noise :)

Other than that....why on God's green earth would you use 3 MONSTER fans?! I don't think you understand the type of noise that will come from those fans. Your neighbors might even hear them. You won't be able to hold a conversation in your room. You probably couldn't even hold a shouting match in your room. :-/

They're GREAT air movers and very well built. But they simply are not acoustically economical. Heck, they don't even undervolt well (on a rheobus, big :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing variable resistor (BFVR), regular BFR, or really any other method of fan control) either so forget about lowering their RPM to control the noise. That massive amount of airflow isn't particularly necessary either. Nor is a PA rad a good use of that much airflow.

Find some nice ~1600RPM fans and you'll be only a few degrees off and your room will have a nice, mostly-quiet hum coming from a high-performing beast of a computer. Or if you want LED fans...do push/pull with LEDs on both sides of the rad :p:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

Read the fans he is planning on using in push/pull... IMO, the static pressures will create problems...

Wording of "harmful" was meant as "not helping to achieve near ambient temps." Last time I checked, the main goal of "LIQUID COOLING" was to get as close to ambient as possible...

BTW, IMO you spent way too much $$$ on fans, especially when YL D-12SM suffice to achieve good performance...

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I read the OP. My response was intended to address precisely what you said, and nothing more. Your statement WAS fairly all-encompassing, yes?

I've liquid cooled for about 8-years. I understand the theory and intent quite well.

:D I'm sure I could say the same about a purchase or two that you've made, if I was inclined to offer unsolicted comments on such things.

I doubt you will need more than quiet fans. I get no difference in temperatures when I add in extra fans on the other side of my rads.

You should probably match the fans either side if you do go for push-pull.

Martin did a test that found that pull/pull (without shroud) essentially doubled the static pressure for 25mm fans. That sounds pretty effective to me. Push without a shroud is going to have a very large dead spot in front of the hub, especially with a 38mm fan. I'm not sure why this LED thing is so important to you. It really limits your selection of fans. Just buy separate LEDs and hot glue them to the fans wherever you want them. There are also small LEDs that mount on a small swivel which you can aim wherever you want for spotlight effects both inside and outside the case.

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

LOL... Yeah, I admit I'm guilty of some "overkill" here and there...

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And don't think I haven't noticed, and admired you for it! :up:

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Originally Posted by gojirasan

Martin did a test that found that pull/pull (without shroud) essentially doubled the static pressure for 25mm fans. That sounds pretty effective to me. Push without a shroud is going to have a very large dead spot in front of the hub, especially with a 38mm fan. I'm not sure why this LED thing is so important to you. It really limits your selection of fans. Just buy separate LEDs and hot glue them to the fans wherever you want them. There are also small LEDs that mount on a small swivel which you can aim wherever you want for spotlight effects both inside and outside the case.

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I may get these fans http://www.coolermaster.com/products...ate=36&id=4355 the problem is the only places that carry them are way out in New Zealand (I am in Canada btw), and Coolermaster are too newbish to reply to my emails telling me were else they supply them. They have read my emails (as I tag them)... sad they CoolerMaster are nothing but a bunch of newbies.

Anyhow if I can get get them I will buy a bunch. :-)

Leathal

90cfom and 19db... that rating is almost as bad as SilenX. NO WAY u get only 19db from a 2000rpm fan. it will be in the 30 something range. And u wont get 90cfm either. They look ok for a led fan tho. if u want a pwerful fan the ultra kazes are a very good choise. they undervolt ok. But u wont need that much anyways. Yate loon d12sl-12 is all u need. (1350rpm) but if u think u need abit more u can go with d12sm-12(1600rpm) instead. They undervolt almost as good as the sl ones. And i bet u cant measure the difference between the sm and ultra kaze fans on the pa rads.

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Originally Posted by eXa

90cfom and 19db... that rating is almost as bad as SilenX. NO WAY u get only 19db from a 2000rpm fan. it will be in the 30 something range. And u wont get 90cfm either. They look ok for a led fan tho. if u want a pwerful fan the ultra kazes are a very good choise. they undervolt ok. But u wont need that much anyways. Yate loon d12sl-12 is all u need. (1350rpm) but if u think u need abit more u can go with d12sm-12(1600rpm) instead. They undervolt almost as good as the sl ones. And i bet u cant measure the difference between the sm and ultra kaze fans on the pa rads.

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Its all in the blade technology that coolermaster is using on the above fans.

Leathal

:rofl:

Sorry...but I'm stepping out of this thread now...a SilenX is perfect for you

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Originally Posted by leathal

Its all in the blade technology that coolermaster is using on the above fans.

Leathal

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http://smiliesftw.com/x/bigbowrofl.gif

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Originally Posted by Vapor

:rofl:

Sorry...but I'm stepping out of this thread now...a SilenX is perfect for you

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It's true.

The aircraft companies they could make a helicopter as quiet as the new Comanche is until they experimented with the main and tail rotor design. They don't use the same blade technology as you find in other helicopters from years ago and new ones today. Basically the point is the blade shape, size, and number of blades determines the noise level as well the air flow so it's not like this is anything new and unheard of, you just have to wake up and smell the coffee! :)

I would use the new FLEX 1900 rpm fans not terribly loud and moves decent air.

points of dimishing returns 400 rpm fans moving barely any air or on the flip side 252 CFM fans


quiet but hot or noisy and cool


I mean hell might as well go phase change the wattage alone on those high speed fans could power a small compressor LOL

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Originally Posted by leathal

It's true.

The aircraft companies they could make a helicopter as quiet as the new Comanche is until they experimented with the main and tail rotor design. They don't use the same blade technology as you find in other helicopters from years ago and new ones today. Basically the point is the blade shape, size, and number of blades determines the noise level as well the air flow so it's not like this is anything new and unheard of, you just have to wake up and smell the coffee! :)

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Whatever helps you sleep at night.

LMAO this thread is going downwards. If u really belive 19db\90cfm.... well.
Even without the fan itself, just the frame. 90cfm moving through a 120mm hole is produsing more noise than 19db. Add the fan wich is actually producing thoose "90cfm" and ur at helluwa lot more than 19db. Well... unless ur taking the reading in another room.

I dont know how sensitive your ears are but most of the small amount of 12cm fans I tried before start buzzing above 1000-1300rpm regardless of which brand or blade they are.
All I can trust is the majority oppinion of the user of the fans.

BLAHHH 57.6W per fan you could power a 1/5 hp phase unit off 3 of those fans cooling the TC120.3 rad

oh check out this video think you can live with the noise??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDzVJKRkQB8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaWw33wz_O4


my flex-E are pretty quiet at 1200 rpm

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Originally Posted by Sparda

I dont know how sensitive your ears are but most of the small amount of 12cm fans I tried before start buzzing above 1000-1300rpm regardless of which brand or blade they are.
All I can trust is the majority oppinion of the user of the fans.

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Yes, as a rule of thumb(or whatever they call it) u can look at the rpm to know how much noise it makes... ish. Rpm counts way way more than the blade design when it comes to noise.
If u find a fan design wich lowers the noise quite abit at a given rpm, i bet my ass that u also lowered the cfm at the same time.

I have the 2500RPM version of the fan right here. I also happen to be in the middle of testing other fans--I'll put them on hold for a few minutes and give this one a whirl.

Okay, test results.

12V (2500RPM) numbers:
82CFM @ 43.9dBA

10V (~2250RPM) numbers:
73CFM @ 40.9dBA

Few notes...the fan never gets really quiet, even at 5V. Makes this rasping/grinding noise, might not be noticeable in a case though. The turbulence noise is especially bad above 8V...below that the motor noise takes over. And most of all...even the 2500RPM version doesn't hit 90CFM. Interpolating from this data, the 2000RPM version should move approximately 65-66CFM and at an unpleasant ~38dBA.

Of all the fans I've tested so far on this testbed...the best performance at ~19dBA was the Yate Loon D12SL-12 @ 5V moving just under 26CFM (@19.3dBA). My previous tests can be found in the stickies of both the Liquid Cooling and Air Cooling sections.

In other news, I'm shocked at how bad this fan is...

Pretty conclusive id say. Not a good fan at all then.

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Originally Posted by leathal

Basically the point is the blade shape, size, and number of blades determines the noise level as well the air flow so it's not like this is anything new and unheard of, you just have to wake up and smell the coffee! :)

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Correct, and with the bigger fan OEM's getting into advanced blade and motor designs hopefully we'll see a long overdue change in fan tech. I bought Noctua based specs and reviews and I haven't been disapointed. I just slapped in two Enermax "Magma" fans for top exhaust and feature\performance wise they're pretty cool too, detachable blades for ease of cleaning, bat wing blades and a very interesting motor.

Still, its only minor changes. Nothing major. look at Vapors fan testing. at the same rpm (and same fan size ofc) there isnt any real big differences, only minor ones. And Vapor has testet quite alot of fans. Shure, blade design (straight, curved, golf balled) do make minor changes, but in the end the rpm makes alot more change.

Whether the difference is minor or major depends on what the individual requires from said fan. For me, trying to build my first "quiet" rig, I wanted performance without a lot of noise. The Noc's I picked delivered on a few levels, and not just because they're 1300RPM. Blade design DOES help to a tangible degree in my case. :up:

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Originally Posted by John Planet

Whether the difference is minor or major depends on what the individual requires from said fan. For me, trying to build my first "quiet" rig, I wanted performance without a lot of noise. The Noc's I picked delivered on a few levels, and not just because they're 1300RPM. Blade design DOES help to a tangible degree in my case. :up:

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Blade design is a big part of fan design, but in the instances we are talking about here, with this 90cfm/19db fans, its just an outright lie. You could have a bunch of spinning celery sticks and it still not gona produce what is being stated in the specs.

Yeah, at this point I've tested about 70 fans (unique fans...if you count all the duplicates and all the ones for my own uses, it's nearly 100 fans).

No doubt each design point has an influence and there have been advances. But simply, there's no magic fan. There's no fan that's leaps and bounds better than everything else (it would be mimicked immediately anyway). There are, however, fans that are magically bad (ironically, they're usually the ones that proclaim superiority--this Cooler Master might count as that bad....the SilenX are definitely in that category at least).

RPM can tell you so many things. Or at least tell so many things it's not.

i recall the gap between 2 blades determine the MOST dBA ..

the larger the gap .. the quieter (aka Notua) .... the smaller the gap ... the noiser (9 bladed ones)
but .... the larger the gap ... the less air pressure (bad for rad) ... the smaller the gap .. the better air pressure (good for air restrictive rad)

other than that .. the rotor .. i dun know how to measure ... but i do use vaseline - petroleum jelly as grease around the "ball bearing"? (i dun know what it's called) .. it just reduce slightly (just slightly) the sound in lower rpm .. but still the same sound in max rpm
i didnt use any measurable device to measure the dBA .. just a quiet room, closed room in dead night

hope this works

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Originally Posted by Vapor

Yeah, at this point I've tested about 70 fans (unique fans...if you count all the duplicates and all the ones for my own uses, it's nearly 100 fans).

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and in your opinion what are the best ones? (top5 of your list)

If dont remember wrong, i think yates(petras) and scythe s-flex is pretty high up.

San Ace H1011

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Originally Posted by Spawne32

Blade design is a big part of fan design, but in the instances we are talking about here, with this 90cfm/19db fans, its just an outright lie. You could have a bunch of spinning celery sticks and it still not gona produce what is being stated in the specs.

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:D Perhaps. I'd wait for a commercial review, or someone like Vapor, before I made a final decision, though.

I believe noctua p12's pulling through a shroud would be all you need, and very quiet at the same time.
I've gone the noisy fan route before and it sucks. The bling gets old too.:2cents:
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Originally Posted by dengyong

I believe noctua p12's pulling through a shroud would be all you need, and very quiet at the same time.
I've gone the noisy fan route before and it sucks. The bling gets old too.:2cents:

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Yup, I'm running 6 P12's on my rad and I'm very pleased with the results. :cool: