http://forums.slizone.com/index.php?...&gopid=162847&
Post 24. Is the block this guy recommends really awesome? Has it been tested here?
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http://forums.slizone.com/index.php?...&gopid=162847&
Post 24. Is the block this guy recommends really awesome? Has it been tested here?
Db did you miss me :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing out the eVGA rep on XS saying they paired up with the :banana::banana::banana::banana:tiest company in the world, only to have the eVGA rep come out of hiding and say there working on pure copper components?
:rofl:
innovatek is about as good as my doggie poo bag. All its good for is dog dookie.
link? I added a reference to the GX2 blocks ;)
It was on the GX2 blocks. LOL..
Poor Mailk, the guy really likes innovotek. But he knows alu is crap.
Does he know that DarthBeavis is the master watercooler? :rolleyes: :p:Quote:
I strongly advise you, DarthBeavis, to get a bit more experience from the water-cooling companies before judging something as the best for a Skulltrail.
That guy has probably never even heard of the Fuzion.....
DB pop your open bench rig. That thing was awesome with all those 480gtx's. Should make him shut it. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by smee
LOL i love this comment:
DarthBeavis Today, 03:54 AM Post #15
SLI Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 42
Joined: 8-March 07
Member No.: 4,186
CLUB SLI Member: Yes
QUOTE(daigoro @ Apr 28 2008, 08:01 PM)
Here's my setup with pics and temps @ 25C (77F) ambient room temp - pretty much watercooled everything in a single loop (oc'd E6600 C2D, oc'd quad SLI GPUs, SB, NB, 2 vregs, 4 DIMMs, 2 Raptors and 2 Caviars) - http://forums.slizone.com/index.php?s=&...st&p=137109
It works!
I hope this is a helpful reference for your WC project.
How does this apply to a Skulltlrail rig? An E6600 <> Dual QX9775s dude. He could do it all with Koolance if he wanted to (their new C340 blocks have had good reviews).
Thats funny, comparing a C2D against a full blown LGA771 Yorkie! mmm 2 cores vs 8.
No need to go further when we read that from your guy :
Physics revolution and complete nonsense, yeah. This guy should learn some basis in thermal management instead spreading BS :rolleyes:Quote:
Innovatek is the only one that actually makes the coolant to cool your components by using low-flow to draw away maximum heat. All the others don't allow complete thermal equilibrium because of the technical constraints of using high-flow, and hope that the metal at a bit lower temperature cools the hot components.
I am not too smart so I just listen to experts ;) My expertise is modding anyways . . .watercooling and phase change cooling are just icing on teh cake. Well, good watercooling should be visually appealing IMHO as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
To clarify for you a little bit, DarthBeavis, the biggest problem with that guy's argument is that he seems to think that lower flow means better efficiency. This is simply not true.
High performance at low flow rates (see FuZion) is high efficiency. Simply lowering flow rates doesn't draw more heat. It's like saying that on a hot summer day having the fan on super low will make it pull more heat off your body. It's just plain silly. Higher flow means more molecules collide means better thermal transfer in any fluid (water or air).
Gosh.. I'm glad Linus explained it.. or I would have tossed out the second pump in each loop and undervolted the pumps to slow down the flow hahaha.. just joking...
so just out of curiosity i went and looked at the cpu block from innovatek... and i couldn't find a direct website but FrozenCPU has them: http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g/c8...ml?o=price_asc
i thought we typically stayed away from pushpins? can't see them making good contact for extended periods... and plastic likes to stretch and shrink when exposed to high temps... :rolleyes:
but at least it is copper...
It's the same speech each time. People have no problem to know and to understand that more airflow gives better temp on a heatsink, but with water they think differently and at the complete opposite, even if these convective phenomena are governed by the same physical laws. Never understood why or what could induce this opposite statement to them...
Did you ever see the internals of this overpriced G-flow ? Never a good thermal engineer would to do that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
Thanks a billion! I am gonna have to order some stuff from you now! Well, I was going to anyways.
i dont personally see the point to go with innovatek... performance wise it is only slightly better if any over the D-tek Fuzion and the price of the G flow is twice that of the FuZion (more than that actually)... $130 really what are we paying for??? there is no where near the same amount of copper as a full cover VGA water block and you can find a nickel plated full cover water block for around 130 i dont see where all this money we are paying going in to like if i see it has a feature that the fuzion doesnt i understand but thats not the point either... it does not have a good installation system either as many have said push pin is NEVER the first choice... I dont understand confusion :p and innovatek has a 780i chipset set which is going for more than the 780i itself :p... again where is all this money going and what are we paying for... you can get an an-fi set for the 780i for less than that and they look MUCH better :p well that was my rant about the stupidity of going innovatek (for someone without a unlimited budget :p)
I'd like to see some evidence that the g-flow is slightly better, if even the same as the fuzion.Quote:
Originally Posted by omaryunus
I've had some innovatek parts in the past and they weren't stellar performers. Looked nice, high quality manufacturing, but didn't perform. Works ok in an matx build where space is on a premium but outside of that I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
I just read the crap from G.Abhinav, what an idiot!
Does that thing Really use push pins?
oh sorry if i said that i was entertaining the guy on the other forum who says that innovatek is the best and nothing is better. i personally love my fuZion and my DD Waterblock did not perform even close to my fuZion. its just way to expensive for my blood :pQuote:
Originally Posted by crash5s
lol. If he refuses to listen, then why bother? let him waste his cash.
just my personal rant cuz i dont like it at all used it once horrible experience for how much money i wasted
DOE i cranked my RD-30 to 5V, need to crank it up since linus cleared it up. :ROFL:Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
You also saved me from getting a new pump! j/k
DB you run out of things to clear up with them, end it with this:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_0949.jpg
Say the people from XS is giving innovotek a nice little birdie!
ROFL my thoughts exactly rosco! What a .......:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
maybe you should use bigger words with terrible grammar too. :rofl:Quote:
... I've got nothing but praises for Innovatek as it is absolutely great and employs the thermodynamically most efficient form of cooling ...
I can't tell if I'm being mocked for explaining it or not :p
I wanted to mention it just because DarthBeavis linked over here and I'm hoping some people will follow the link and read this thread to see the explanation
@ IanY and Nikhsub1: You guys know that I know you're the flowmasters ;)
:[ i get no love.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
Nah were not mocking, cuz you said it as easy as possible to understand.
Were mocking the whole fact that you had to explain it.
Translation:Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
If you have a embarrasingly horrid pump, and enjoy using undiluted antifreeze as a coolant, buy innovatek.
I have a 775 G-flow that I'm using in a shiats & giggles loop* and so far, I not impressed, but I'm fairly certain that's due to the "rad" I'm using. The G-flow has a nickel plated top and bottom while the center section that houses the mounting pins is made of anodized aluminum. The only reason I'm even using this block is it was the only one that would work with minimal fuss in an aluminum loop (starting to think I should have chosen a Koolance:rolleyes:). I am using Innovtek's protect fluid and I'm still nervous as all hell because this was posted after I had bought the block and was committed to it. I'm using a CSP-Mag and hoping the pressure won't be high enough to cause any problems with the plating.
*due to some hardware problems/dislikes, MoBo, HDD and GPU are different from that post.
Dude I really am thankful . . .no mocking on my part! Anytime we can get someone who actually sells the stuff we use here I am eternally thankful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
For the record, I am thankful for your presence here, Linus. Greatly appreciate your wisdom and knowledge. You have my business as well.
innovatek's stuff does look mighty pretty, and i'm sure they sell good. you'd be surprised at how many uninformed people only look at price. if its more expensive it must be better right.
i'm no thermal engineer but low flow almost makes sense. the fluid stays in the radiator longer, therefore has more time to dump its heat. perfectly logical. but what i think these people fail to realize is. the higher flow make 2 or tree trips through the rad dumping the same or more heat.
dont even get me started on pushpins, i'm too tired. lolz:rofl: :rofl:
DB have u linked this thread to him? :D
edit: oops, I see u have! :rofl:
He responded and he sounds pretty intelligent and reasoned:
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) I listed ONE specific reason for Danger Den over Innovatek (copper vs aluminum). One. I have not tested temps and flow with the Innovatek products but I am willing to take your word about the performance. This does not negate my point which you have not addressed (and I really hope you show my assumptions are wrong because I am ALL for having more options for us to choose from . . .look at what I use . . .Danger Den, Blast Flow, MIPs, EK . . .I prefer Danger Den first but will use other products as well if they are good).
Have you ever seen the inside and outside view of Innovatek blocks? It is not full aluminum. Are they idiots to make full aluminum when every little kid knows copper is a better conductor of heat than aluminum?
The base-plate (the part that lies on the hot object) is entirely made up of 100% pure copper to ensure maximum conduction. Additionally, it is electroplated with a few more micrometers to ensure you get molecular-level smooth surface even without lapping.
Only the body is made up of aluminum. This is done because aluminum has more tensile strength than copper and is resistant to all oxidation reactions and action of chemicals by developing a passive layer that protects metal underneath.
100% pure copper oxidizes even upon touch and the oxidized layer falls off exposing fresh layer for further oxidation. So, basically all-copper blocks have no advantage because you only need copper for base-plate because that's only where you need heat transfer; not all over the body.
One more thing; to reduce cost, copper blocks are made very thin and light. So even little corrosion renders it paper thin and you're more likely to get leaks with copper blocks. But Innovatek blocks are solid aluminum blocks and are quite heavy and you can even kick it around provided you don't damage the smoothness of the base-plate.
You might think that mixing of metals will lead to galvanic corrosion, but this is an obsolete idea and modern science has laid certain criteria for galvanic corrosion such as the presence of a conductive coolant and small electric field potentials. Innovatek has used this combination from the day they began manufacturing water-blocks (lot more than 6 years) and have had no galvanic corrosion because of mixing metals.
Additionally, the coolant InnovaProtect has the ability to resist galvanic corrosion to a great extent and is also quite non-conductive and so won't allow electric fields to form and suppesses any chance, however remote, for galvanic corrosion to occur. So you can have water-blocks and rads of all different metals without any worry about corrosion (I've had aluminum, nickel, copper and stainless steel in my loop for over 3 years now and not even a sign of corrosion even when I open the blocks to check).
Coming to fabrication of the block itself, Danger Den and all other water-blocks are limited by the die-to base-plate contact of micro-columns. I hope you know what it is. The micro-columns are actually not a part of the integral water-block itself. The micro-columns are moulded on a copper sheet and then this is soldered to the base-plate of the water-blocks.
If you look from a molecular level, there is insufficient contact between the micro-columns and the base-plate. So vibrations of atoms in base-plate does not make a decent proportion of atoms in the micro-columns to vibrate because there is a huge gap between the two. This drastically decreases heat conduction to the micro-columns. What is the use of increasing surface area by having micro-columns if heat is not properly conducted to the micro-columns in the first place? This is the first and biggest limitation of Danger Den and all other water-blocks.
As it so happens, I asked Dan Stephens about this the moment I saw the zoomed picture of the water-blocks and Dan was honest enough to reply to me saying that whatever I said was absolutely true and this was the main drawback with all their water-blocks (and all others in the market that go on this same principle and it includes all companies except Innovatek).
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) Show me their non-aluminum blocks and I will try one out.
I'll talk a bit more about the construction of Innovatek water-blocks to wipe off the last traces of your wrong impression.
First, aluminum is more malleable than copper; so you can make nice sheets and plates with it better than what you can do with copper. But copper is more ductile than aluminum and so if you're making wires and tubes, copper is better. Just remember this throughout.
Innovatek water-blocks don't have any useless micro-columns. They use a specific plate-arranged channelized flow pattern that swirls water and so malleable aluminum is required for plate arrangement (base-plate is copper for best conduction). So they don't need ductile copper; they only need malleable, tensile, light-weight and corrosion-resistant aluminum.
The copper base plate is directly exposed to the coolant. So base-plate is directly cooled by the coolant without die-to-base solder limitations.
Innovatek water-blocks are designed to make water swirl inside the water-blocks for sometime before going out. So, water swirls over the base-plate and removes maximum heat. Note that Innovatek uses low-flow. So, water has time to attain thermal equilibrium with the hot component.
Suppose water is at 25 degrees celsius and CPU is at 65 degrees celsius. Suppose that only if water stays on the base-plate for 5 seconds, complete transfer of heat occurs. So Innovatek water-blocks use low-flow and let water stay inside for 5 seconds and allow it to attain thermal equilibrium and CPU comes down to 30 degrees celsius.
Actually, CPU will stay very close to 25 degrees becasue volume of water is very large when compared to the CPU. So change in temperature of water is very less and final water temperature is equal to CPU temperature. Because thermal equilibrium has been attained we use this formula to calculate final temperature of water (that is equal to final temperature of CPU):
Q (heat of CPU i.e., 136W) = m (mass of water ~1kg) X s (specific heat of water) X [T2 - T1] (T1 is 25 degrees celsius)
Note that this formula is not applied to other companies because they don't allow enough time to attain thermal equilibrium by using high-flow. Water will flow out of the water-block quickly and so it'll not have enough time to absorb enough heat. So heat builds up. Remember that rolling stones gather no moss; fast flowing water absorbs no heat.
What about other companies? They use high-flow and let water stay only for 2 sec and so water will be at 25 degrees and CPU will be at 55 degrees. For next cycle, CPU will be 75 degrees instead of 65 because there is arrears of 10 degrees with first cycle itself. So, tempertaure will increase to a particular limit before it become so high that only 2 seconds are enough to ensure that newly produced heat gets completely eliminated (cooling curve is "J" shaped and I'll detail that later if you don't know what I mean).
So at this point the CPU will be at 70 degrees or so before it stops becoming hotter. This will be the equilibrium temperature of the CPU. Note that Innovatek has lower equilibrium temperature because of complete heat dissipation without any arrears or building up of heat. That is why Innovatek blocks are superior.
You should know that high-flow is suitable only for cooling something that is already hot, but will not get any hotter. So if your CPU is at 65 degrees initially but it is switched off so that it doesn't get hotter, then high-flow can cool it. But our components continuously get hot. So high-flow is unsuitable becasue it does not dissipate heat completely and allows heat to build up in those objects that constantly get hot.
So after knowing all this, why don't other companies make low-flow blocks like Innovatek? This is because Innovatek water-block designs are patented and that is why no other company can use low-flow swirling designs and create water-blocks that can have as good performance as Innovatek.
Now, after reading through the above novel, do you still have that wrong idea about aluminum? Just chuck your superstition out of the window :yawn: .
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) By the way, how are the GX2 blocks coming that Innovatek is making for EVGA?
Innovatek has already made the GX2 blocks and I'm using them for my 2 EVGA 9800GX2 SSCs in SLI. While air cooling brings temps to 90 degrees celsius at full load for anytime more than 2 hours of good games like Crysis, etc.. Innovatek water-blocks live up to their expectations here also. I've heard some people giving high-flow to Innovatek water-blocks and get higher temps than they should, but they give reviews saying these blocks are bad without correcting their mistake.
My friend with 4 X 120mm rads from Hardware Labs never ever got any temp above 45 degrees celsius as recorded by the nTune log for 3 hrs of Crysis with a mixture of Very High and High at 1680 X 1050. Please note that he has 10 components cooled by four 1/4" loops splitted form one 1/2" inlet, and he's using only a single Danger Den D5 12V pump and only 1 radiator but still gets these temps.
My story is different because I refrigerate InnovaProtect using my patent pending invention (I'm a chemical engineer and I've graduated in thermodynamics and my main profession is refrigeration) and so I get -5 or -10 degrees celsius idle and 15-25 degrees celsius on full load even when torture testing of 80 hours. You've read it correctly and I've done no typing mistakes either.
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) As far as the best CPU block . . .most people lean toward teh D-tek Fusion . . .I wonder if they have used the Innovatek G-Flow in tests. If not, I think we need to get in in the testing rounds! Martin on XS is in the middle of CPU block tests and surely would love to test this out.
Either they've not used Innovatek at all, or they've used it like how people use ordinary high-flow water-blocks. Please note that Innovatek water-blocks are independent of orientation, loop order, flow-rates and flow-restrictions. So they shouldn't be used like all other products.
Usually people do mistakes by placing in-line multi-water-block flow system for Innovatek products and they don't get good temperatures. For Innovatek, you should minimise flow as much as you can and use splitters to split the flow and get low-flow but decrease ID to maintain high-pressure.
You should also dedicate each split hose to not more than 2 components if you want decent temperature. So, if you follow this, you can actually cool upto 8 components using a single pump and radiator and get low temperature on all of them.
If you use Danger Den or others, you can never cool 8 components with 1 pump. Also, in these, 1st component will have low temps but second will have higher temps and so on. But in Innovatek, if you follow their simple instructions (that may appear wrong to those who're accustomed to high-flow) you'll get equally low temps on all components.
Quote:
QUOTE(DarthBeavis @ Apr 29 2008, 09:35 AM) I am going to post this thread over at XS as they have people who do much more testing and will be interested to hear about Innovatek and their quality.
Yes. Please do so. With my 6 years of water-cooling experience in which I've used Innovatek for 4 years, I can come very handy and let my knowledge be of some good use to others.
QUOTE(G.Abhinav @ Apr 30 2008, 12:20 PM)
Have you ever seen ........ knowledge be of some good use to others.
Please note everyone, that I'm not any employee or sales representative of Innovatek. My views and opinions are not biased or made partial to promote the sales or marketing of Innovatek products in anyway.
I'm just another guy like you all who's had the oppurtunity to try all the best water-cooling products from over 20 different companies and out of all of them, I've been most impressed with Innovatek which's probably the least discussed water-cooling company in these forums.
Out of painstaking physical installation and temperature recording, I've come to judge Innovatek as the best and so this post is not copied from some review written somewhere. Get that guys?
This post has been edited by G.Abhinav: Today, 01:37 PM
My rant, Then eVGA knows there gonna get an ass whooping on it so they reply with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Quote:
Originally Posted by jAkUp
Say bye bye innovotek to evga? That itself should tell you a lot.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=180749&page=5 Post # 109
is he claiming that blocks arent milled?Quote:
Coming to fabrication of the block itself, Danger Den and all other water-blocks are limited by the die-to base-plate contact of micro-columns. I hope you know what it is. The micro-columns are actually not a part of the integral water-block itself. The micro-columns are moulded on a copper sheet and then this is soldered to the base-plate of the water-blocks.
i dont quite understand this guy, long read..
is this guy on drugs? how can his "patent pending" fluid be at -15 degrees celcius. That breaks the laws of thermodynamics. Unless he just put antifreeze and some icecubes in his res, that's impossible. Also, He's also forgetting that it's a closed loop system. If its closed loop, than higher flow is better. Lastly, that statement saying that he can get low temps from parallel, is pure BS
i'm not entirely sure this guy lives in our world... and from the sounds of all the cool and rediculous things you can do i want to go there!!!
I think the "copper blocks are inneficient because the pins are soldered onto the bar of copper" statement is retarded. I don't think he has ever heard of the procces of casting or forging.
blah, give up DB.
Theres only so much you can do. I have a simular problem on this forum right now, and all i can do now is just ignore.
They will never change, and nothing will allow them to change. The only thing you can hope for is that they run into an accident where they will eventually say, "OMGWTFBBQ he was right."
All of this because I was trying to help a dude watercool a Skulltrail. Mine is the 4th DD water-cooled Skulltrail I know of which is not bad considering they are not even released yet. I also clearly state other blocks would do well.
DB, we all know you probably have the most experience out of all of us on working with a ST system.
You showed off your pictures, you told them what you picked up from here, ontop of your own experience.
They still wont listen, its the classic you can lead a horse to water, however not force the horse to drink.
If your concerned about the OP, at this point what i do is PM him personally, and tell him all the wrong things people are recomending, and then link him to a few forums where you can get second and third advice.
Bring him here, or Anandtech, or the DD forums which your most comfortable with.
At this point its only a losing battle to go on, and you'll end up destroying that thread like i did to another guy yesterday. [trust me its not the best feeling knowing that you killed someone's thread]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
The OP said he is calling DD . . .so that will turn out well.
Tell me he's a troll ?!
OMG, then a blackhole appears, no ?Quote:
it does not dissipate heat completely
What a joke. Why no low-flow ? Because they are smarter and understand physics laws ?Quote:
So after knowing all this, why don't other companies make low-flow blocks like Innovatek? This is because Innovatek water-block designs are patented and that is why no other company can use low-flow swirling designs and create water-blocks that can have as good performance as Innovatek.
He's joking again, right ? Tell him to learn again thermodynamics laws and convective behaviour to start...Quote:
I'm a chemical engineer and I've graduated in thermodynamics and my main profession is refrigeration
rofl. These WB are unique and revolutionary, they have a flat C/W curve from 0 to 1000 L/h, yeah... Is he serious ? That's why these WB are often in the less efficient WB...Quote:
Please note that Innovatek water-blocks are independent of orientation, loop order, flow-rates and flow-restrictions. So they shouldn't be used like all other products.
We could comment each sentence, but it's too long and not interesting...
Please make him stop, it's too funny reading his thoughts, he's probably on drugs :yepp: . Very honestly, he doesn't understand what he's dealing with and talking about.
I'm sure the folks at Danger Den will help him out. If he wants to pick up a Vadim Skulltrail SB block, you know where they can be found in N. America ;)
I read through about 1/4 of that guy's post copy+pasted into this thread.
It's a fine line between knowing enough to think you're an expert and knowing enough to be considered an expert. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. He's taking principles that are perfectly true, such as the fact that Aluminum oxidizes instantly when it comes in contact with air, forming a protective layer against further oxidation, but that doesn't mean that it's protected from galvanic corrosion in a water cooling loop.
He's write about malleable vs. ductile, but again the principles have been applied incorrectly, since we don't make water blocks with a hammer and anvil anyway.
Anyways DarthBeavis, if you have any questions about the specifics, I'd be happy to help you out via PM or email. I'd be happy to help you.
That remembers me a G-flow alu top completely destroyed by corrosion from a guy here (Fluidxp used, supposed to be a good corrosion inhibitor) :
http://www.enregistrersous.com/image...0501003646.jpg
Clic me !
at first i seriously had to laugh so bad at his stupid concepts...now its actually annoying me...give him some links to martins thermal and flow testing..that should shut him right up
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
im sorry how is this suposed to fight against the EK Supreme, D-tek Fusion?
I think an ApogeeGTX unbowed with copper top would spank this block.
To be honest, my TEC blocks done by martin had more Time and Percision then that.
http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2...ory_Code=Gflow
125 dollars NICE! You can pick up 2 EK Supreme's almost for that price.
Then take a breath and analyze the flow pattern to see where water will go preferentially (almost directly from one barb to another using the straight channels on the top, not the bottom ones) :
http://www.petrastech.com/blogimg/maze-g-flow.jpg
Draw your own conclusions ;)
So lemme guess this.
The water flows from barbs to chanels. Those chanles align up? they stacked next to each other or cris cross? wouldnt that kill your flow?
We can ignore the top piece as it wont aid in thermal transfer.
But the bottom piece looks like a thick slited base. Also the layout would lead me to assume its not bowed? if it was bowed you'd get cracks in between the two plates when the bases aligned.
I dont get this block. :shrug:
Expecially the 125 dollar price tag with it. Id rather pick up an AquaComputers DI Cuplex over it at that price.
This is making me borderline explosive; I think I'm about to have an outburst.
[must resist rant]
[must resist naughty names]
NaeKuh > Channels are criss-crossed.
I cannot for the life of me, figure out how that would lead to any kind of positive thermal performance...Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco
That block looks like :banana::banana::banana::banana:. The guy has completely forgot about the principle of surface area, and that the pins on blocks are milled, not soldered. I guess when you have had your head up your ass for 4 years in Innovatek....
Wow.. strong words about XS and all of you n00bs :D
Sorry that you guys just don't understand the principals of low flow. He says that his precious expertise "has strayed into the hands of a bunch of idiots."
By stooping down to your level of knowledge, or purported lack thereof, you will just sink his intelligence!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Abhinav
i beg & implore someone with the knowledge & words to sign-in over there & totally own him, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease
pins are soldered to base??? seriously.. his stupidity hurts..
My pins appear to be superglued!
Wow.. EK, DD, D-Tek, Swiftech, XSPC... you guys are just a bunch of idiots!! Don't you understand the theory of thermal equilibrium? You n00b manufacturers have a lot to learn from Innovatek!
Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Abhinav
Interesting observation.. copper is light and aluminum is heavy. Someone drop a ThermalRight cpu heatsink on his toes lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Abhinav
At least your pins are touching, mine seem to be magically floating. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
Better yet, I'll drop my G-Flow on his toes. It's the heaviest block I've ever had. Most blocks (if you threw them at someone) would hurt, but you'd be able to shake it off after a few mins, this block will take someone out. :yepp: IIRC, the base alone is 5mm thick and the slots add another 3mm. Crappy machining too. Looks like they just gang milled it with slotting cutters at the wrong feed rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
Speaking of this, I miss your old avatar. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
That's what most pictures of them I've seen looked like as well. :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
It is so hard to just shrug it off sometimes when you encounter an individual like this. He has been shafted so hard, and so many times in so many different positions by the Innovatek marketing dept. that he has lost all coherency.
+1 it's astonishing to observe his absolute conviction that he's right, and everyone else out there is wrong. Surely it can't be too hard to realise that if innovatek's ideas were that far superior, everone else would be following by now?:shrug: (i know he talked about patents and the like, but cmon, really!).
I've spent the last 10min triying to find some info on fluid dynamics or heat transfer, but i'm not having much luck with wiki. What i need is a textbook, but i'm not in that area of study. We need a scientist in here to bust out some sweet formulas that say higher flow = more turbulence = lower temps or something like that!:cool:
What would possibly settle this argument (tho i doubt this guy will ever come around) is a real-world test. Someone get a G-Flow, a fusion (freer flowing), an EK Supreme (high restriction), and a couple of pumps (mabye a db-1, ddc3.2 etc). Test them at low, med and high flow on a nice toasty quadcore and let the numbers do the talking.:yepp:
I do realise that he raises many other points (like quality of manufacture etc), but in the end shouldn't real-world results be the selling point?
And some ppl just continue to live in denial about corrosion, sure it's not as bad as some say it is, i've seen enough pics to know that it exits!
That big long post of his is full of LOL.
Alu + copper won't corrode... lol. Comes up with some fancy equation then says that it can't apply for anything else than those blocks... lol. Low flow is better... lol then my 2GPM should be killing my temps right? Hmm my CPU is actually rather cold, what do you know!
I could continue to tear this guy apart even with my limited knowledge of this stuff. Plus he seems rather full of himself. Rather elitist. He says he's "glad to share his knowledge" but then calls us over here a bunch of idiots :rolleyes:
I'll enjoy my 2GPM loop with zero chance of corrosion and CPU load temps in the 30's and my GPU not breaking 45 using my pathetic Dtek and Swiftech hardware :p:
u could wiki/google 'thermal dynamics' i think.. as for being able to convince him.. ask him politely that, if u could prove him wrong, would he concede? if he says no, then he is clearly a troll :devil: @ which point u should point that out to eveyone in that thread :DQuote:
Originally Posted by twwen2
I think I can safely say the G-Flow is a loser. I can pretty confidently compare this rig to this rig. Idle temps alone, the G-flow loses. The G-flow is idling @ 43ºC and loads @ 61ºC (25ºC Amb) totally passive. With 3 Sunon 120x38 fans @ ~7v, 39ºC Idle-51ºC Load. These are both Preshott builds that are not OC'd at all, although I am thinking about trying the 524.Quote:
Originally Posted by twwen2
waterlogged of course it doesn't perform well, you don't have a weak enough pump on it to make the water sit in the block for 5 minutes :rofl:
:( I thought my CSP-Mag was weak enough for XS standards? :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by SparkyJJO
uhhh... u need to bust out the gen.1 TT pumps for this yo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I'm going to get a lawn spinkler system that turns on for a quick while and then shuts off for 5 minutes as the water circulates slowly to cool the block.
How bout a Hydor L30 or L35?....I have those.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
easy tiger, those hi-flow pumps are evil... u need a L20 to get to 'thermal equilibrium' :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss
HEY! I know... I've got a couple of dead DDC 2's laying around I can put in serial, that might be low flow enough.
His math and reasoning is right, but what he does wrong is treat the water in the water block as an isolated system.
In fact, he should be treating the whole water loop as the 'water reservoir' that is undergoing total equilibrium with, say, the CPU block. And if flow is high and therefore you're getting more water through the rads per unit time, and therefore you're keep the whole water loop cool(er), then your delta of the block to the water will be smaller than if you allowed low flow and had all the water equilibrate to a higher temperature.
I believe that's the flaw in his reasoning.
Oh just use a little water gun. Its just enough water flow for the block. 10 minutes later, come bak empty out the block and start again. No need for a pump, or even a radiator. The water will swirl slowly and cool the cpu block real well.
lol you guys are a cack:rofl:
your reasoning is correct. Now tell DB how to explain it to him more simpliar then this, and you got a winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by cegras
This is why were laughing and making fun. No matter how simple we make it, he doesnt get it.
Drinking coffee or beer, and then having to go every 15 min will pull the best temps. Might make your comp stink tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
That'swhy I'll have a funnel hooked to pvc tube. Every 15 minutes, I get my dog to do it for me. Lots of water in the dog dish. Don't worry about the smell. I use Lysol as a fluid additive. Some Listerine may also be good biocide.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
mmmm *scratches head*.. that might just do it! :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I hate to say this but in all seriousness have you tried it with a low flow pump...just to prove him wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Nae: Sounds good, let me try it .. I was actually staring at his post for a while, and I kept thinking to myself "gee, this guy is right, but I know he's wrong .. " and finally, blink! Epiphany.
DarthBeavis, try summing up this explanation:
Basically, his calculations and reasoning are correct, if he assumes the itty bit of water inside the block and the block itself is an isolated system. He should be in fact treating the all of the water in the loop as the total amount of water that should be calculated with q=mct, not the little bit of water.
Higher flow = more passing through rad per unit time = more heat dissipated = lower 'stabilized' water temperatures = lower T2 by the equation.
Low flow = less heat dissipated = higher equilibration temperature with the block = higher cpu temperature.
I'm sure it gets a lot more complicated than that, but I'm guessing that's the gist of it.
Which loop and how low flow you thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by HotGore
OMG . . .you guys have to head over and check this thread out . . .lol
I do not understand a damn thing about what is being said. hell, I can dissassemble and reassemble a multi-phasic flux capacitor before understanding the n3rd speak ;)
well, I am a programmer by trade not an engineer
oh dayam GRIM laid the smackdown. :rofl:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_0559.jpg
OMG that pink stuff is solder!??!?!?!
feel free to post that pic in there for reference DB.
That was EPIC!
it doesnt matter how much info you throw at him..he will do anything to just try and convince you that his point is right, just because he bought an expensive block...
even if you test the block and compare it to a supreme/fuzion , one way or another he would say that the test was manipulated (used a "high" flow pump:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: )
some people at forums are just a complete joke...i once had someone (in NFS forums) say that i was cheating and then say that i cant be getting such high scores cause he had about 4000posts in the forum and i had just 10...thats just pathetic:D :rofl:
At the rate we are going, there should be a PhD watercooling program at CalTech and MIT. You don't get to watercool unless you write a 500 page dissertation on how to be obnoxious with the mathematical equations.
Like I always say, it doesn't matter if your job is to cool the nuclear reactors at Los Alamos. It has absolutely no practical bearing on cooling a silly little computer. What looks like poop and smells like poop, usually is... No theoretical expertise needed.
Guess I should apply to MIT and get a degree on Watercooling engineering :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
Actually, MIT does have a design your own major program lol Minor in computer gaming lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Xilikon
By the way . . .he quoted Danger Den guys saying this and that . . .well. . .let's just say he is taking liberties . . .
connor0007 Today, 06:55 AM Post #42
SLI Apprentice
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QUOTE(GrimReaperGuy @ Apr 30 2008, 10:02 PM)
- Summer Glau
WTF?? umm she's hot and all but for some reason i just dont think you are her... haha i think the grim reaper... GUY... part gives it away.
sorry i know this is off topic i just thought i would post cause it's late and i really couldnt comprehend anything else in your post haha. not to mean it didnt make sense i'm just fried
This post has been edited by connor0007: Today, 06:55 AM
That cracks me up! ROFL. Thats the exact same stuff DB said when he read that post.
Wow this guy is totally retarded. IDK why ya'll are even bothering with such a bafoon.
we need a good laugh for the week? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
That's what is happening here when he is trying to be smart :p I agree with NaeKuh, we need some good laugh for the week :rofl:Quote:
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
OMG that has been in my sig forever...
No worries, two other people went into the thread and ripped up his post.
That doesn't mean he'll relent.:rofl: I personally hope he doesn't, well, at least for another few days anyway.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by cegras
Dude, that guy over there at the "sli forums" is so freaking retarded. He has no clue what he's talking about at all.
I'm 15, and he's probably way older, and I can CLEARLY see many flaws in his theory's.
He probably works for Innovatek.
Aluminum = CRAP, bad bad bad.
Copper = BEST, excellent heat transfer.
I just registered over there and later on today when I have more time I'm gonna post at him.
This weekend i'm getting my wc loop up, finally :rolleyes:, I'll show him some numbers.....
He probably doesn't even know what a fuzion is.
Quote from the OP of the thread at SLI forum:
Oh so he's better than us? :rolleyes: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :ROTF: :ROTF:Quote:
Becasue they're only assumptions, I don't expect people to get precisely what ever temps I mentioned. I've also skipped a whole host of things that I thought would complicate the issue beyond the understandings of all members of this forum.
Someone please point him to this review.
http://translate.google.com/translat...3DNsx%26sa%3DN
Then show him some simple °C/W graphs for various components and have him try to explain why the the thermal transfer is always worse the lower the flow rate is.
It's not worth trying since he will eventually attack the review for the flawed theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
The more I read, the more I consider him as a Innovatek shill...
Duh of course we aren't gonna drink. I prefer to drink water thank you very much, not some innovatek fluid!Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Abhinav
That thread is great! If we had hawt CHickx we would have all the makings of beauty and teh geek . . .lol