http://uk.theinquirer.net/?article=40993
Swiftech Noobification. Now you can RMA the whole thing when the pump dies. Hopefully this wont be the wave of the future for Swiftech.
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http://uk.theinquirer.net/?article=40993
Swiftech Noobification. Now you can RMA the whole thing when the pump dies. Hopefully this wont be the wave of the future for Swiftech.
Finally a starter solution from a company that can deliver a fine setup. :clap: :clap:
Yeah. Is nothing Xtreme but is still better than the all-in-one solutions we can get from companies like TT and others.
Looking forward for some reviews!
one of those self driven blocks with a pa120.1 or 160.1 should be really interesting
http://swiftech.com/assets/images/pr...e-exploded.jpg
WTF, DDC's i though can be mounter verticuly upside down!!
Let alone how does any water get over the copper base of the block.
I want some real open unit photo off Gabe
Maybe really really small factored cases can be WC's!
Any plans to do them for GFX as well?
Like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
Thats what I was thinking too. After the crap Coolermaster and TT put out... lets do an all-in-one the right way. I'd be leary of the 350 tho, since I had a few die.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
I'm looking forward to some reviews as well.
On paper it looks promising. I hope it delivers and provides a great market growth for swifty ^^
"The nice thing about these parts are they make an all internal water cooling kit, so there are no untidy things hanging out of your box. You can get a mild cooling setup with the 120 and a little more heat dissipation with the 220, but both are mounted in the same way. With large slow fans, Swiftech is claiming 40dBA with an overclocked quad core CPU and two 8800GTXs."
Uhhh...... how does a 220 handle an overclocked quad + 2 8800GTX?
This is enough to bring a MCR320 crying. Infact i recomend members to split the loop up because the 2 x 8800GTX will impact the CPU performance quite noticibly.
Andy i cant believe your not saying anything about this. You have the config and so do i which is required for a dual 8800GTX quad platform.
Scott you going to sit calmly thought this statement as well?
Just some numbers for reference.
An overclocked quad will put out around 200W of heat. A GTX each will put out about 210W of heat. x 2 = 420w + 200W = 620W of heat you need to get rid of.
There is no chance unless you live in hell and it froze over, that a poor 220 will handle this heat load. Gabe needs to have them fix this statement.
There is no "them". I am making these statements. I never claim anything that I cannot back-up from verified experience. We published some 3D marks 06 a while back, with an A.D. abbreviation which stood for Apogee Drive, and have now edited the title http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm06=2054649Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
I personally measured this system in my P180 case with all system fans on low at 37 dBA (with a room ambient noise of 27 dBA)
Was this system hot? yes but still within specs, the same way a large OEM would setup a high-end liquid cooled system.
I have this system at home with the dual rad version (except for the quad that went back into my office system), E6600 at a conservative 3.4Hgz for hot california summer stability, both Stealth Rev2 ;) cooled GTX's running at 648/1053 no vmod, and I'm in the low 50's in orthos, mid 40's under furry cube load for the GTX's, and all at a quiet 40 dBA (dual fan adds 3 dBA compared to single).
Anyways, now that the cat is out of the bag :( , you can actually use our CPU temp calculator located on the H20-120-compact kit page to predict with fairly good accuracy (+/- 1C) what your CPU temps will be with this kit version :D
Sorry to drift slightly (ever so slightly, as this could well be under "New Swiftech Stuff") off-topic, but...
You really know how to bring that perplexed look up. Five weeks since the official launch of the product and a Rev2 in the oven?Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Yeah I wouldn't be happy if I bought rev 1. At all. Makes me think rev 1 wasnt properly thought out.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToad
Gabe you should know first hand, i value your imput a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
However, i dont think this statement would hold valid. i have members on anandtech complain about the weak temps a MCR220 radiator would bring on 2 gtx's alone. In fact a lot of people split the loop up because the system would require a massive radiator to in-line it.
The lowest radiator for such a config, overclocked quad + 2 gtx itself merits the need for a PA120.3 series radaitor.
Adding the statement of Large slow fans, your going to confuse the public. In fact im not saying its not possible, you would need super high velocity fans for the cooling system to keep up.
Dont mistaken me. I love your products, i use a lot of them in my rig and other rigs. I went though almost all the waterblocks you released, and i think your company is great.
However, that statement i bolded is not something you should promise. The heat load is far too great for a MCR220. And if the user isnt going to get watercooling expected temps, his migration will lead to bitter complaints.
Scott, please help with your imput. If you honestly think this system will work, show me how it would work. Also andy show me that this system will work, and the reasons why we split our loops up wasnt just for dual color coolants and bling factor.
Is this directed at me?Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
yes... or should i just call you by your handle?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
I'm curious about this statement above.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
These guys getting bad temps, what blocks do they use? You could have 5 radiators, but if your block sucks with bad contact your temps will still suck.
Besides, I made those 06 benches, that Gabe posted, myself, so I know for a fact what the little kit can do.
OPP
You have formulated your objection politely enough and I appreciate that. But the facts remain. The high Junction temps we see on the quads may not "feel" comfortable, but these chips are spec'd to run reliably at such temps. Read my statements precisely, and you will see that there is absolutely nothing misleading in what I have posted. It's all true.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
The key is in keeping the voltage as low as possible. I am not claiming extreme O/C anyways. Read the O/C meter in the H20-120-compact page. It says it all.
Oh, and one last thing: these products are not due for release today or tomorrow as stated in the Inquirer. They are due for release end of the month.
The bench people were using was a MCR220, with 2 MCW60's on a D5 platform.Quote:
Originally Posted by OPPAINTER
That used to be what i recomended, until people werent happy with the high delta temps of the 2 x G80 from idle to load. I first assumed it was mounting error, and asked them to remount. Later on, i started digging more indept on this matter, and found the radiator to be lacking.
Then most of them stepped up to a MCR320, and problem was solved.
@gabe
When people think watercooling + overclocking, they intend to push the cpu at or near 1.4Vcore real to about 1.5Vcore real. Otherwise they question the water migration. The setup you listed would come on par with a Ultra120 Extreme and 2 HR-05's on the GTX's in a well vented case.
This is the bug and itch i have with this statement. The Air solution would also be quieter.
Its just concerns i have, because on anandtech, i am looked highly upon in watercooling. The first question i always ask, Budget, and what do you expect or hope for idealistically.
Then i help them plan the system around what they want. I never do it the other way, of asking them just to buy brand X and Y and Z and mesh it together and see what you get.
Anyhow, i'll check out that calculator gabe. But my brow is still lifting up on this statement.
NaeKuh,
If those boys running the MCW60s want 2c better on those 8800GTX cards they have got try the new Stealth REV2. Un-beatable core temps:D
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=151502
OPP
This is a question I ask myself all the time. Then I'd typically ask Stephen to put a high end heat pipe in the chamber for baseline testing, and always end up in favor of W/C by a long shot. At equal low noise level and a conservative O/C, a top-end heat pipe might get you close to the W/C CPU temps but you will never drop your GPU temps by the 20 to 30C like we see in a W/C loop. My EVGA was reaching 80C with the stock cooling and dumping massive amounts of heat in the case. Now I'm hovering in the mid 40's with case temps close to ambient. What do you make of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Water cooling is no longer just CPU. It's a system, dropping ALL the critical component temps. That's how it has to be looked at.
Yeah, yeah, were'all still wondering why you wouldn't baseline your system before and after eh :DQuote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
i agree... :T However, i just cant see it from a physical standpoint on how such a config would work. Because idealistically, were trying to get rid of 620W Peak, of heat out though a MCR220 radiator. Bill Adams tests showed to be effective around 300-400W of heat disapation. (please correct me if im wrong)Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
However, i think i'll wait for Nikhsub1's comment. If he can show me how it would work, then i'll follow. But from the many posts and comments ive been getting regarding radaitors. I always understood that this wasnt possible.
If marci will also addon about how this would work, i will also feel a bit relieved. I tend to trust marci's posts more deeply when it has matters of radiators and capacity. :T
Another person who i admire and look up to is MAX racer. A forum member is trying to cool a dualcore with a SINGLE G80.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=125693
Even max recomends the MCR320. :confused:
would the pump vibration have any significant impact on the mount? my ddc-2 vibrates quite a bit.
NaeKuh, I have no reason to doubt what Gabe is saying, LOOk at what he wrote... the system is hot COMPARED to our xtreme water systems yes, of course but the temps are well within spec. Spec to most around here is 5x to hot...Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I see no reason why it wouldn't work - the air/water delta maybe 20C but so what? As long as the 2 GPU's and the CPU are 'within' operating temp spec there is no issue... I know my system doesnt put out the most heat (6700 @ 3.85 w/ 1.55v + X1950XTX) but my 120.3 keeps air/water within 2c. I am not really qualified to answer really as I dont have a quad and 2 GTX's to run with a dual fan rad... but the question at hand would be what is the air/water delta with such a setup? This would be the most informing piece of info we could gather as it will tell us how things will perform with more/better rads.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
In regards to this new 120 compact kit, Swiftech sent out a bunch of these for review already. It will be interesting to see what they have to say about this kit.
OPP
that's were you are off. I can confirm your 200W peak for the quad (we measured)... but we also MEASURED that the 8800 GTX GPU "only" dumps a max of 100W of heat ito the coolant, 117W if you have a full coverage block (you stated 200..).Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
This being said, what your radiators sees is almost never 200+100+100W, because unless you are intentionaly stress testing, there are no games or apps that I know of that load both these high-end CPU and GPU's at 100% all at once.
Listen.. what someone feels "comfortable" with is necessarily subjective. Not everyone has a big budget and this product fits that market niche.
Perhaps the target market for this product doesn't necessarily belong in XS :) I think [H], THG and Anand are open for business :D
I suppose Naekuh would be looking elsewhere :)
Gabe, I speak frankly here. Please don't lose focus on the high end community. That's the foundation of your company's success and that segment would always provide the platform and people like Naekuh will continue being the engine of your future growth. You're not Taiwanese. You're not Korean. Please keep being American and French... as in NOT cater to the lowest common denominator... Someone came up with the phrase.. "the N00bification of Swiftech"... Hopefully not. I'm from East Asia myself.. and I cannot stand the Thermaltake/Koolance/Zalman/Creative mentality (how's that for a diss). We like you the way you are. :up:
We are not using the DDC2 (not to say it couldn't be used)Quote:
Originally Posted by Senater_Cache
We are also using a "hard-mount" method to secure the cooler onto the M/B.
I think I agree with you on this. I'm starting to agree with you too much. That's bad. I must have the wrong head screwed on.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
Moving on. This kits look aimed at the segment of the market that's now full of TTs and Zalmans. And it looks it's going to give them a run for their money. And that's good.
Perhaps a few honest reviews here and there (this product as it is IMHO doesn't need good reviews, just honest ones) will ensure some market penetration.
However, TTs production capabilities, established distribution channel and marketing machine might prove a bone hard to chew...
I subscribe that too. Oh dear...Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
Anyway, I hope that this new line of products will open a new line of revenue for your company, and ensure your presence in the business for both the mass market and the hi-end market for a long time.
will the block/pump housing be available seprate for those that allready have a pump(ddc)?Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
also really like the fillport on the radiator endcap(rad in kit) will that be available on any of the larger models?
I have only one answer to this: I use it for my home system (E6600 OC + 8800GTX SLI), and I am converting my office workstation (quad + 2900XT) to it as soon as humanly possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanY
I wrote and meant every word in the product page, and I said this: "make no mistake, this kit is no entry level weakling".
This is a serious cooling system for serious users Guys! The Apogee Drive combines Apogee GTX with DDC1 performance. Nothing to be ashamed of in my book.. and you save $60 in the process compared to buying the components separately. What's wrong with that?
I see this new generation of products as a revolution in the water-cooling industry: A true high performance product at a reasonable cost, and simple to install.
I understand that because it is relatively economical, the perception will be first "if it's cheap it must be no good".. but this perception will go away as soon as you have hundreds, and then thousands of people using it. This is the quantum leap progress that a lot of people have been waiting for.
Well, regardless of the kit option, the integrated pump and Apogee GT (the website states the copper base is the same design, but are the barbs the same distance apart as in the GTX?) hold a lot of promise, especially for $99! I'd be very interested to see some real world testing of that coupled with a triple radiator, or something closer to what xtreme overclockers would want :)
My only complaint: 3/8" barbs! We've all read Cathar's results, so performance isn't a problem, but conversion of 1/2" parts to 3/8" parts is a pain :(
ah well, maybe we'll see some custom tops for this one too :D
They are going to have to think really hard on that one. We have a bullet proof patent pending on it so that no one can use the DDC motor, it means that they are going to have to be really creative to beat the product performance. Price wise, we will continue to suffer some handicap because of the pump cost, but it's quality/performance feature set is also the product primary advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToad
As to production capabilities, our resources are practically unlimited on that line of products.
Distribution channels and marketing clout: yes they are definitely at an advantage here, but we have also been doing guerrilla marketing for 7 years now, and look: we are still here and growing!
A final note: I have read statements by some people saying that water-cooling was never going to go mainstream. I believe that our technology is now mature enough for consideration in mainstream applications.
It certainly looks like a good entry level product and certainly no "weakling", but I what we need is figures of voltages and overclocks. 40dba is too loud for me personally. Is the 40dba with a mild overlock on the CPU only?
I don't intend to question the integrity of the product but I would like to know the differentiating factors between this and say a PA120.3, DDC2 etc... loop that I would normally say was fitting for such a rig.
NOW where is VictorWang to read this :) :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I know, I was just teasing youQuote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
both our 8800's are in my home system for long term testing purposes ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
now this should be interesting!Quote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
I thought convex(bowed) waterblocks where just a work around for a less than flat ihs?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by phelan1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
This is a quote frojm a reputable review.
"The GeForce 8800 GTX is obviously a very power-hungry part, as you might have guessed ... NVIDIA tells us that the TDP of the card is around the 185W mark"
I believe Marci stated that the TDP is the theoretically MAX heat load a chip can get. This is also how i got my 200W TDP off quadcores. I pluged them in a voltage calculator, and it spat out 200-220W depending on the OC of the chip.
Now, we got a graphic intensive game, which will load the cores up at 100% on both in sli.
Lets not even add up CPU temps. Now, if you blast up all the AA's and Filters, that gfx card will get loaded near 100%
So lets use a bit more conservative numbers of 170W. Times that by 2 you get 340W.
Ummm... Quad @ 200W gives you 540W for games like supreme commander with full options and settings set on max.
:\
Yes i supose it would give you "acceptable" temps. Definite within the safe zone. But for a radiator which was only ment to handle 300-400W of heat. :\ Thats a bit too much stress.
Anyhow i wont get into anymore. Its just something that brought up my concern.
Certain aspects of this appeal to me.
Seeing T-Take not being able to copy something for once is a joy in and of itself. Taking the market from them and all the other half baked wannabe's would bring a smile to more than one face.
Having a built in res on the radiator seems like a good idea. I for one would like to ditch the whole t-line, res and have more room and less tubing. Unfortunately in my mind, the days of the single 120mm rad are gone. Like someone else asked, are you going to incorporate this tech into 220 and 320 rads?
For the rest, well Im sure it will appeal to first timers, people wanting to cool a media pc, or people fed up with running intricate loops. I on the other hand have absolutely no interest in a shake and bake setup. I derive my enjoyment as much from the construction as from the final results.
Pump on the block? Unless there is a SIGNIFICANT performance boost from having it there, I see no reason to run the risk of leaks due to vibration. Granted that may never happen, then again.....Id rather be responsible for my own catastrophe, then I only have myself to blame.
On a lighter note...Does the Apogee Drive come with the O-ring to bow it? :up:
Hey, dont get me wrong, I have enough Swiftech stuff to open my own store and I love it all. I just hope Swiftech doesnt forget its roots on its way to the mass market.
On a side note: I for one was disappointed with seeing the GTX and the Stealth manufactured in Aluminum. Regardless of the reasoning or the "myths" or the "probabilities" it just doesnt appeal to most people who have strived to keep that metal out of the loop. Because of that my first ever non-Swiftech block ended up being a D-tek. Stealth? No thanks, Ill stay with my MCW60. Honestly I think you could have knocked out the market on that if you had only designed a true FC block minus the Alu. Please...no more Alu. Or at the very least, offer a delrin or copper top for people who want that choice.
Naekuh.. read me carefully..we MEASURED.. there is no guessing game here. What I am talking about is the actual amount of heat that goes into the GPU water block. One can't argue with measuring instruments.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Gabe,
Can we please have some photos of the unit and it all opened up, non of these computer done ones, real ones be nice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
3D models and actual pieces really are the same, except for external skin texture.
the 220 is scheduled for release mid-end august. maybe sooner if we can. We have no plans for the 320 yet, but given enough demand ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Steel
Yes, I understand that. Sorry we are kind of "taking away" some of the fun to xtreme guys by offering advanced solutions useable by anyone. But this is how progress goes. Look how many new technologies are used in cars today that actually came from F1 racing..Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Steel
the bow technique works with any IHS covered silicon (proven again with the stealth r2)Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Steel
I sincerely apologize for being thick dangerously bordering being obnoxious, but sometimes I need to see things in black and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Shall I gather from that statement that a X6800 would benefit from a bowed GTX the same way the quad cores do?
I believe so without the shadow of a doubt. [edit] yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToad
You're going to cost me a kidney you know? Well, no, in this case this expression is unfortunate. Let's say you're going to cost me a piece of my liver.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Anyway, your original Apogee has managed to keep the delta T of my o/c X6800 in 21C under 100% load, soon we'll see what a bowed GTX can deliver :D
I suppose although the measuring instrumentation can hardly be called "laboratory grade" the readings obtained with the same probes and in the same setup can be compared...
sorry I forgot you had an apogee GT already. why don't you just bow the GT? The difference between a bowed GT and a bowed GTX is 1C at 100 Watts. Just figure out how many watts your processor is outputting by using our CPU temp calculator (it also gives the watts). It is extremely accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToad
This is not just a belief it is a fact. Bowed pwns unbowed on IHS. In my test by as much as 5c or so on a 6600.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
THIS THING IS GOING TO DIE IN A DESKTOP (desktop case, the ones you put onto your desk under the monitor) SYSTEM, SO KEEP IT AWAY FROM HTPCs :fact:
DDC is not supposed to run top-side down, you better add this on the swifty page ;) , in a normal ATX case the design looks good, but this thing is going to make res placing even harder...
EDIT: i killed my DDC-1 pro this way, together with my ultra-d (cpu+vga survived)
Did you even read the description?Quote:
Originally Posted by generics_user
:rolleyes:Quote:
These new parts combine the reservoir and the radiator to make an all internal two piece solution.
if NickS pops in here he will argue that as well i'm sure :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
:)
interesting, nice little startup kit you got there gabe and im glad someone finally put out a halfway decent product to compete against that crap thermaltake has been putting out. I hope this gives you some more market share :)
And Nicks contributes how to this watercooling forum? I'd trust Gabe with regards to measured heatload over someone who rarely contributes to this forum. I see no reason for Gabe to lie about this. If anything wouldn't he want to report a higher heat output so that he'd sell more radiators than would be necessary?Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
Gabe,Quote:
"So we added a reservoir to the existing Quiet Power MCR120 radiator"
http://swiftech.com/products/H20-120-COMPACT.asp
Do you know whether or not the integrated "res+rad" will come in bigger variants? This would be real nice - to not have a reservoir anymore!
220 model coming at end of August if I remember right. He said anything larger would require a wait and see approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by k0nsl
Hopefully a 223 model will follow. Although I already have their MCR 220 (or whatever its called, I forget) and it works well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranker
If a bigger model does not follow, I'll just buy the one you mentioned. Its probably enough for my uses.
:)
Nice idea, though, isn't it?
rankerQuote:
Originally Posted by ranker
i am saying NickS is a time waster
Lol. ok. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
I agree, your temps would be acceptable but I could see them rising very quickly when gaming or benching.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Now dinos22, we've had our disagreements but man, if you have a problem PM me.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
I contribute. Just because I don't like your overall "in your face" and "I'm right you're wrong" attitude doesn't mean I don't contribute. That and, where did I ever say anything to Gabe about heat load. This is my first post in this thread. :confused: I believe Gabe too. If he has the right equipment necessary to gather the information & the equipment was used properly, then there is no reason there would be an error in his measurements.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranker
PM me man, we obviously have some disputes that need working out.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
So, I think I'm ready to dive in being I need something compact. Where can I get one in the US market right now... if not now, release date?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Still a bit of a wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I removed the word "Desktop" to prevent any misunderstandings.Quote:
Originally Posted by generics_user
The pump CAN perfectly operate upside down, but the system needs to be bled perfectly (when bleeding upside down, an air bubble could be trapped in the bearing area and woud stay there forever unless the pump is bled right side up). So we end not recommending upside down operations to avoid problems.
Heh, just saw this topic as I was offline tweaking my WC a bit. I couldn't help but think of this when I saw the combo'd pump/block. That's been up for well over 1½ years IIRC.
Gabe, any chance that an old Apogee can be modded to fit the bottom of that?
Hmmm... I will have a poke around to see if I can source the relevant O-ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
As I said before, I tend to be quite thick sometimes. Or saying it in a way that's not so derogatory, I can't see the wood for the trees.
I had the impression that the bowing business was GTX "onry". Don't ask me why because I don't have a clue where I got the idea from. One of these silly things that sticks to your mind, like "fill your rad with vinegar and leave it there for a week, is great"...
Sure.. This concept has been around for a while. We are not claiming the invention of the water block (public domain) nor the invention of the DDC pump (covered by multiple patents already), but a means of converting the DDC into a water-block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Let me give you a parallel: long time ago, in a far far away galaxy, someone had invented the pencil and got a patent for it. In another galaxy, someone had invented the eraser, and got a patent for it. Then came a third person who had the idea to put an eraser on a pencil, and file a patent for it, but the patent application was rejected by the US patent office.
Anyways, the revolution in our mind is the fact that we are combining two high-end technologies, the DDC and the Apogee, to provide high-end performance in an economical package.
As to conversion, sorry but it is not possible mechanically.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything of the sort. I just thought it was neat someone had finally followed through commercially on the concept. As much as I like my CSP's, I like my DDC's even better.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
...again I think there's a misunderstanding. I meant with your setup, not the CSP...or is there a difference between the Apogee bases for your setup and a regular block?Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
what if you want to mount this outside, is that an option?
or gabe, on page 1 you said you put this in your p180. my p180 is pretty full, where could the radiator fit?
and i am talkin about the 220 size not the 120.