Philly Boys Golem

The unit started as a 5150 btu window air conditioner, and now has turned into what might become one of the best benching chillers (for GPU's) ever ;)

:yumyum: :yumyum: :yumyum:
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1655/dsc02249ru9.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1362/dsc02250uz2.jpg
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5142/dsc02251wo1.jpg
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http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7710/dsc02254ed5.jpg
So yep, results when it finishes pressure testing and vacuuming.

The guts look familiar. :)

I wish I had the tools to do what you did.

Lookin good!! Is this the unit we'll be using at the MC event on June2?

Ya except it will be tuned and then painted up nicely ;)

S-c-h-w-e-e-t!!!

Hahahaha this should be great. I'm going to paint the case and put in two 4" holes on top for the hoses.

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

The unit started as a 5150 btu window air conditioner, and now has turned into what might become one of the best benching chillers (for GPU's) ever ;)

:yumyum: :yumyum: :yumyum:
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1655/dsc02249ru9.jpg

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The "Good Sense" trash bags in the upper right of the first photo is CLASSIC!

You probably didn't plan that ... but it works!

:up:

I was going to use this chiller to super cool the Swifty 6500T TEC block for the Micro Center event on June 2nd. Jake has LN2 pots for the 8800's...

Was wondering about how cold this will make everclear (grain alcohol)? The pelt has a -23c delta T hot side to cold side. I am hoping this will get the quad up to 4.3-4.4ghz. I guess we'll find out...

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Originally Posted by Philly_Boy

I was going to use this chiller to super cool the Swifty 6500T TEC block for the Micro Center event on June 2nd. Jake has LN2 pots for the 8800's...

Was wondering about how cold this will make everclear (grain alcohol)? The pelt has a -23c delta T hot side to cold side. I am hoping this will get the quad up to 4.3-4.4ghz. I guess we'll find out...

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You want as little alcohol as possible and as much water as possible, so remember to mix in plenty of water ;) Oh and are you sure that pelt will get good results on a quad? It doesn't look like a 226W TEC @ 13.8V (is it?) is going to cut it.
NoL you say you're going to make a sweet case for this. Hope to see it :)

Sweet case yes eventually, but for now, just the old case but a bit of new paint. O Chilling the TEC block, forgot about that, oh that should be fun ;)

chilling a pelt isnt a great idea, but beyond that, nice start to the chiller.

Chilling a pelt not a huge improvement, but in this sense we will see. ;)

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

You want as little alcohol as possible and as much water as possible, so remember to mix in plenty of water ;) Oh and are you sure that pelt will get good results on a quad? It doesn't look like a 226W TEC @ 13.8V (is it?) is going to cut it.
NoL you say you're going to make a sweet case for this. Hope to see it :)

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Why do you advocate such a low alcohol to water mix? Isn't the idea to have a liquid mixture that gets as cold as possible before freezing? Hyper salinated water will still freeze at -20c to -21c. I have a bottle of Grey Goose in my freezer which is set at -18c and pours like liquid. What else might work? Ethanol?

Also, until you've personally tested a 226 watt TEC with -20c water cooling the hot side then please don't knock the TEC set up. Gabe Rouchon and Eric (OPPainter) of Swiftech took a 6500T TEC block and cooled it with cold tap water (about 7c) and ran his quad up to 4.037ghz with 1.47v vcore. With mild overclocks on water cooled 8800GTX's that set up landed a score of 20,242 good for 26th in the world in the 3D Mark 06 ORB. With better clocks on the cards and straight water on the CPU and 8800's he managed to get even higher to 25th (20250) in the world last I checked.

So, I figure with colder water cooling the hot side then I will be seeing almost single stage temps on the overclocked quad. My 8800GTX's are scaling pretty ok as well. I think that with LN2 cooling and clocks up to 845/2000/2400 (gpu/shader/memory) I should have no issue breaking the top 20 at this event. Do you live close by? Why not get a ride and come watch it happen?

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Originally Posted by CCUABIDExORxDIE

chilling a pelt isnt a great idea, but beyond that, nice start to the chiller.

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Nice thing to say, care to share why?

A pelt is pretty stupid....the colder you make the hot side then the colder the cold side gets as it comes closer to it's theroritical delta T. My pelt's Delta T is -26c so if I cool the hot side with -20c water then all the pelt does is get even colder. This is as long as I can feed it 13.8 volts at 25a or so.

Colder the pelt gets, the less its resistance to power becomes, and thus you turn it more into what amounts to a short circuit. IE you are basically shorting out your power supply and turning the TEC into a heater. I am unsure how it will react to -20 how ever I am fairly sure you will not get what you expect.

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the colder you make the hot side then the colder the cold side gets as it comes closer to it's theoretical delta T. My pelt's Delta T is -26c so if I cool the hot side with -20c water then all the pelt does is get even colder. This is as long as I can feed it 13.8 volts at 25a or so.

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Albeit thats what one would intuitively think but that assumes A:100% efficiency and B: its resistance to power remains the same, how ever this is not the case.

Any case good luck and be interesting to see what happens, though you'd be much better off just ditching the pelt all together and running you coolant at a lower temp.

FYI Sterial your statement is so wrong in this field it is sad, Learn about what you're saying be for giving bad advice. Yes Philly you want slightly more alcohol then the lowest expected freeze point.

Philly may I suggest you do some more reading into how a TEC behaves when chilled.

Serial may I suggest you learn WAY more about low temp cooling systems involving liquid medium.

The problem I've seen with pelts at low temps is that the delta T shrinks as you lower the hot side temps. So while a TEC hooked up to a HSF might have a large -50*C delta T, a TEC on water might have a -20*C delta T, and a pelt on a chiller might have -5*C. I'm making up numbers here, but they reflect the general trend of what I've seen.

Now the big thing to keep in mind about this is that a TEC pumps out a lot of extra heat. This heat ends up in the chiller loop; in your case 13.8 volts x 25 amps = 345 extra watts to dissipate. I can personally guarantee you, unless you have some disgusting monster of a compressor, that decreasing you load by 345 watts will yield better temps than any temp advantage a TEC might give you.

For instance:
Chilled water @-10*C (345watts + 180watts=525 watts) -5 delta T=-15*C core temp

Chilled water @ -30*C (180 watts)

I hope that gives you a general idea of what is going through people''s minds!

Edit: lol some others beat me to it!

We'll experiment both ways using the TEC block and using a straight water block...

Its somewhat true, but it does still get better performance, buts its a huge waste ultimately.

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

Its somewhat true, but it does still get better performance, buts its a huge waste ultimately.

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When there is huge waste thats what we call poor performance ;)

I meant a huge waste of energy, but thats seemingly what we always do to get the best performance out of what we have. We will test both, I honestly don't expect much improvement from running hte TEC, but Eric (OPP) @ swifty got a good bit better performance, not as good as water + tec as far as improvement, but still an improvement.

Neat job NoL! What gas and capillary did you use?

With chillers do you have some sort of thermostat that allows you to warm up or cool the water for benching or 24/7 above ambient?

With a resevoir you can use a thermostat, but otherwise no. This is inline, so better performance and quicker pulldown. 5' of .031 on here ;)
My Modified R507a (its a blend) will end up in this.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr this SO BITES........

I just was informed that June 2nd..................same day MC BYOPC OC event, ROGER WATERS is performing....................

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

is the quad being used mine?


I am emotionally torn Roger Waters (Pink Floyd, *DARK SIDE OF THE MOON LIVE!
") or MC and BYOC event..............


:brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick:

hey, noobofl337 any update regarding our deal?

MC and you know it ;)

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

With a resevoir you can use a thermostat, but otherwise no. This is inline, so better performance and quicker pulldown. 5' of .031 on here ;)
My Modified R507a (its a blend) will end up in this.

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So would you use say 2m of 0.8mm capillary and then put a thermostat probe into the reservoir and wire the thermostat to the compressor?

If you had a resevoir yes, capillary length based on system load.

Sorry about the thread hijack :rolleyes: . If you want we can use pm's/msn.

So what kinda load would we be looking at for a 3.5GHz + Conroe and 8800GTS card? 300W?

Probably 350 or so.

i didn't know about this MC june event, after this thread i will be sure to watch it

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Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony

FYI Sterial your statement is so wrong in this field it is sad, Learn about what you're saying be for giving bad advice. Yes Philly you want slightly more alcohol then the lowest expected freeze point.

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Sorry I meant try not to use PURE ethanol...you don't need it for those temps.

any temps yet?

and is that an MD20RLZ i spot?

Tuning today, just a massive overcharge on a short capillary, more of a huge guesstimate but I'll apply a unknowningly huge load before I hand it over.
And its a MD15 ;)

Gonna try it with a 50/50 anti freeze/water mix and see how it goes...

Maxxx...any suggestions as what liquid mix will yield the best temps?

Take some pics Philly :)

Will do...I'll post them later...

Nice chiller u have there. Just gonna put my 2 cents in about chilling a pelt. I have tried chilling a swiftech 226w using -20 on my x6800 and i can say it dident work. Idle temp was ok but under load feeding the proc anything over 1.55v was a problem. Temps sky rocket to 80c real quick. Chiller works much better on its own at 0c vs pelt at -20. Just my expierence thanx.

Check out the new rack and some more photo's of the 8800's all volt modded, insulated and potted up:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e-rack-007.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e-rack-006.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e-rack-005.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e-rack-004.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...e-rack-003.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n2-pot-012.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n2-pot-010.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...n2-pot-005.jpg

sexy pics, AND i saw it in person!

Man that torture rack looks nice in real life pictures... Might have to get one :D

Shiiiiiny.... *drools on keyboard*

Is it just me or does the mobo tray look pink :p: I keeed I keed The thing is amazing pictures don't do it justice

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Originally Posted by Cpt.Planet

Is it just me or does the mobo tray look pink :p: I keeed I keed The thing is amazing pictures don't do it justice

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I think its PINK!! :rofl: :rofl:

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N.O.L

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it's Pink!

Pink? Looks orange to me?

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

With a resevoir you can use a thermostat, but otherwise no. This is inline, so better performance and quicker pulldown. 5' of .031 on here ;)
My Modified R507a (its a blend) will end up in this.

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What do you mean by better performance? I thought people who use chillers always used a res because once all the water in the entire loop is cold, there is a larger load capacity because there is so much water that can absorb heat? I know what I mean, I just cant word it any better. :shrug:

NICE RACK!! I always wanted to say that w/out getting slapped! :doh: Hope to see some pics of the MC event.

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Originally Posted by Cpt.Planet

Is it just me or does the mobo tray look pink :p: I keeed I keed The thing is amazing pictures don't do it justice

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Originally Posted by INJViper

I think its PINK!! :rofl: :rofl:

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Originally Posted by phelan1777

it's Pink!

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I am gonna stick my foot up all your a$$'s.....frickin' pink...:cool:

Seems you forgot the pics of the chiller! ;P

Wanted to finish the insulation and add a cpu block before I photo it....later tonight I'll get it done...

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Originally Posted by Philly_Boy

Wanted to finish the insulation and add a cpu block before I photo it....later tonight I'll get it done...

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looking forward to the pics Philly_Boy :)

Was just thining Philly, you could throw the chiller onto a radiator and pull some nice a/c for the setup if you decide to dice or ln2 the gpu's or cpu at the event.

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

Was just thining Philly, you could throw the chiller onto a radiator and pull some nice a/c for the setup if you decide to dice or ln2 the gpu's or cpu at the event.

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Or even cool my NB/SB/mosfets to sub zero temps.....muahahahaha

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Originally Posted by Philly_Boy

Or even cool my NB/SB/mosfets to sub zero temps.....muahahahaha

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Can you say overkill?

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Originally Posted by Philly_Boy

Or even cool my NB/SB/mosfets to sub zero temps.....muahahahaha

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We already had one die...

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Originally Posted by INJViper

Can you say overkill?

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Can you say another dead board.

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Originally Posted by Polizei

Pink? Looks orange to me?

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Inside joke. It is orange but when you look through it top to bottom in a dark room or put it up to the sky and look through it shows up pink. :yepp:

Gawd...I hate the voice of reason.....but you're right....the chiller will be the CPU cooling back up. I will prep it so it's ready to go. I'll get the insulation today and we'll fill it and add a block tomorrow.

Methanol+distilled water yields the best result Philly_Boy, but methanol is toxic so it should be stored in an airtight container, don't use it if the container isn't sealed.
Where is Epion and his methanol to ethanol freezing comparison chart??

Methanol also sucks plasticizer out of Masterkleer which makes that combination dangerous to use. Clearflex PVC doesn't get affected by methanol. Haven't tried Tygon or tested Masterkleer/ClearFlex PVC with ethanol or anti freeze. Soak whatever tubing you choose in your coolant of choice before setting anything up. The rubber O-ring on my Iwaki did get a bit more brittle (methanol replacing moisture) but it was fine for 3 months so a bench will be alright.

Anti freeze in any ratio to water is an inferior coolant because it slushes up and offers no benefit.

Edit: Found the chart!
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...ethanolmj2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nefilav

Methanol+distilled water yields the best result Philly_Boy, but methanol is toxic so it should be stored in an airtight container, don't use it if the container isn't sealed.
Where is Epion and his methanol to ethanol freezing comparison chart??

Methanol also sucks plasticizer out of Masterkleer which makes that combination dangerous to use. Clearflex PVC doesn't get affected by methanol. Haven't tried Tygon or tested Masterkleer/ClearFlex PVC with ethanol or anti freeze. Soak whatever tubing you choose in your coolant of choice before setting anything up. The rubber O-ring on my Iwaki did get a bit more brittle (methanol replacing moisture) but it was fine for 3 months so a bench will be alright.

Anti freeze in any ratio to water is an inferior coolant because it slushes up and offers no benefit.

Edit: Found the chart!
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...ethanolmj2.jpg

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Hold on a minute there, why would Masterkleer get its plasticizer sucked out but not Tygon or Clearflex? They're all PVC tubes...and PVC tubes are supposed to be resistant to alcohol.

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Originally Posted by Nefilav

Methanol+distilled water yields the best result Philly_Boy, but methanol is toxic so it should be stored in an airtight container, don't use it if the container isn't sealed.
Where is Epion and his methanol to ethanol freezing comparison chart??

Methanol also sucks plasticizer out of Masterkleer which makes that combination dangerous to use. Clearflex PVC doesn't get affected by methanol. Haven't tried Tygon or tested Masterkleer/ClearFlex PVC with ethanol or anti freeze. Soak whatever tubing you choose in your coolant of choice before setting anything up. The rubber O-ring on my Iwaki did get a bit more brittle (methanol replacing moisture) but it was fine for 3 months so a bench will be alright.

Anti freeze in any ratio to water is an inferior coolant because it slushes up and offers no benefit.

Edit: Found the chart!
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...ethanolmj2.jpg

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Thanks a bunch....I thought I remember reading that grain alcohol/water would produce the best results...

I've felt a lot safer using methanol as a lab burner fuel for years and 3 months in a chiller rather then needing a higher ratio of ethanol which makes the beer cooler a giant bomb. Kind of odd to read about people playing with high pressure flammable gas, electricity and water but methanol is dangerous and cannot be used! :explode:

It eats aluminum viciously but no serious WC loop has exposed alu or lack of corrosive inhibitors...doesn't even seem to clean the oxide off copper.

If you are worried someone might come in and drink it, bring Everclear as the counter to methanol poisoning is drunkeness, the body will metabolize the ethanol harmlessly. Methanol is metabolized into formaldehyde but it cannot happen if the body is metabolizing ethanol instead.

I had Zerex in my chiller but I am not sure it would make a noticable impact in temperatures, I had it for the corrosion inhibition. 3 months everything is okay and then suddenly the zinc anodized evaporator's steel components instantly rust up. You have a nice clean professional chiller, doesn't matter.

NOL is right about the TECs, it helps less in cold I've tried. The effect is still there at your planned temps so its a good idea for benching but obviously 24/7 be prepared for a hefty power bill.

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Originally Posted by Nefilav

I've felt a lot safer using methanol as a lab burner fuel for years and 3 months in a chiller rather then needing a higher ratio of ethanol which makes the beer cooler a giant bomb. Kind of odd to read about people playing with high pressure flammable gas, electricity and water but methanol is dangerous and cannot be used! :explode:

It eats aluminum viciously but no serious WC loop has exposed alu or lack of corrosive inhibitors...doesn't even seem to clean the oxide off copper.

If you are worried someone might come in and drink it, bring Everclear as the counter to methanol poisoning is drunkeness, the body will metabolize the ethanol harmlessly. Methanol is metabolized into formaldehyde but it cannot happen if the body is metabolizing ethanol instead.

I had Zerex in my chiller but I am not sure it would make a noticable impact in temperatures, I had it for the corrosion inhibition. 3 months everything is okay and then suddenly the zinc anodized evaporator's steel components instantly rust up. You have a nice clean professional chiller, doesn't matter.

NOL is right about the TECs, it helps less in cold I've tried. The effect is still there at your planned temps so its a good idea for benching but obviously 24/7 be prepared for a hefty power bill.

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Thanks much for your words of wisdom....obviously this is my first experience at chilled water. I do remember reading back in the day (sheesh I've been around here too darn long) that a guy ran either Stoli or Grey Goose vodka in his chiller and swore by it. Talked about loaded temps like -35c. Well we have bigger heat loads to dissapate these days, but I will get a bottle of Everclear this afternoon and try a 50/50 mix with distilled water with a little Prestone thrown in as a 'whatever' inhibitor. I don't think the loop will hold 20-25 ounces...how much antifreeze should I add?

I will be running either a D-Tek Fusion or an Apogee GTX as the block for the chiller....now officially named "The Philly Water Ice Chiller"

I don't really post unless I have relevant knowledge to help someone else out and Epion hasn't shown up yet.


Vodka is certainly viable to use, however thats good booze that can be drank instead, use that chart to figure out how much you "need" and once it stops freezing, add 5% more to account for the alcohol's rapid evaporation. use 5% Prestone if this is just a test and find some Zerex or Pentosin for later they don't slush. If the loop is all copper the methanol won't do anything, The steel in my ghetto chiller was the evaporator's "clamps" that held the copper tubing together and allowed it to be secured to the chassis. Just regular steel anodized, cheap as possible disaster waiting to happen.

Wood alcohol, methyl hydrate, methanol is...well methanol. Grain alcohol is ethanol with 5-10% methanol+bitterants to make it undrinkable, still poisonous. Everclear would be grain alcohol minus the poison to make it drinkable and thus taxable.

The danger here with ethanol is adding enough to make the whole mixture flammable, methanol will not reach that point and give you much better carrying capacity as far as heat dump goes because there is more water around, methanol itself is a terrible coolant.

Using a D-tek Fuzion or Apogee GTX is cause for concern due to the Delrin used. I snapped a Swiftech Storm (delrin) barb with my hands as a test after having it sit in my -30 beer cooler. My hands apply much less force then mounting mechanisms, thermal expansion/contraction. The GTX also has anodized aluminum which is an unknown variable. It may pull through for benching but you may end up with a lot of dead expensive hardware if its left for 24/7. I used a Swiftech MCW6002 and a Silverprop Fusion SL (with a low temperature rated) O-ring in my chiller, zero problems.

Having 2 seperate materials tightly clamped to each other and frozen/heated constantly doesn't work well. If you want this chiller for 24/7 try finding a Swiftech MCW6002, its only 1 degree worse then a Fuzion I'm guessing from the posts I've seen. A Silverprop waterblock might be harder to find but not impossible. I cannot say for sure what the performance of the FusionSL is but it gives me a 7 degree delta between ambient/load on my 7900GTX at 750 core stock volts (this card's die is huge) so it is not a shoddy block.

Switching to something alchohol based. Tested it today with prestone mixed with water, and that stuff is de-icer not anti-freeze (my bad), HX froze up and flow dropped. Possibly the MD-15 is just too weak ;)
We'll get this sorted though, temps were already below 0 though.

There is a Prestone brand anti freeze but it is most likely glycol based therefore unsuitable due to slushing. MD-15 will be fine, I used an MD20RLZ with methanol+water, just changed the O-ring out for a low temp rated kind since it was long term use. Modzilla's chiller build had all the O-rings replaced with Devcon 250 industrial epoxy thats a more permament solution.

I have ran windshield washer fluid straight in a chiller and it works fine to about -35c, but it does have some detergents in it that some people say is not good; I didn't see any probems with it though. In my last chiller the WW fluid was slushing up because the temps were below -40c unloaded, I got a bottle of RV water system anti-freeze and it works great, no detergents, not thick like car anti-freeze, and you don't need to mix it with anything. It's good to -50c.

It might be better to pump into the HX, might swap it around this afternoon.

or you could get some 99% pure isopropyl at the store, at the store down the street form me the stuff is dirt cheap, like $1 a bottle and 2 or 3 bottles would fill a decent sized loop. plus its not viscous so it would flow real well, and you wouldnt have to worry about slush occuring :D