Is anodized aluminum that bad when mixed with copper?

I've read countless threads about not mixing metals, but what I really want to find out is if anyone has had an anodized aluminum/copper loop using proper corrosive resistant coolant where it ended up corroded? What about radiators as well, such as 120.3s that use brass tubing? Should I be worried if using something like Fluid XP when mixing metals or?

What? Fluid XP??????

Brass and copper are fine together.

Brass and Copper are side by side effectively in the galvanic series - corrosion won't occur between them.

Aluminium however is further apart in the galvanic series, so corrosion will occur between Alu & Brass, or Alu & Copper, or Alu vs Brass&Copper.

Anodized aluminium is fine to use in a loop if you can GUARANTEE that the quality of anodizing is perfect. The slightest scratch that goes thru the anodized layer, exposing bare aluminium underneath, will result in corrosion taking place very quickly. FluidXP etc will slow down the problem, but if you don't change the FluidXP frequently enough then corrosion will still take place. Same applies to distilled water and anti-corrosive additive.

As you can't guarantee the quality of the anodizing in the hardware within our scene, it's just safer to steer clear of aluminium altogether.

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Originally Posted by Marci

Brass and Copper are side by side effectively in the galvanic series - corrosion won't occur between them.

Aluminium however is further apart in the galvanic series, so corrosion will occur between Alu & Brass, or Alu & Copper, or Alu vs Brass&Copper.

Anodized aluminium is fine to use in a loop if you can GUARANTEE that the quality of anodizing is perfect. The slightest scratch that goes thru the anodized layer, exposing bare aluminium underneath, will result in corrosion taking place very quickly. FluidXP etc will slow down the problem, but if you don't change the FluidXP frequently enough then corrosion will still take place. Same applies to distilled water and anti-corrosive additive.

As you can't guarantee the quality of the anodizing in the hardware within our scene, it's just safer to steer clear of aluminium altogether.

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Last two posts, very informative. Thanks for the info!!

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Originally Posted by masaville

Should I be worried if using something like Fluid XP when mixing metals or?

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What you should be worries about is using FluidXP, that stuff is utter crap and people here had nothing but problems with it. You just cant beat good clean water when it comes to moving heat. With a few drops of biocide to keep things sterile and maybe a few drops of dye if you like color.

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Originally Posted by epion2985

What you should be worries about is using FluidXP, that stuff is utter crap and people here had nothing but problems with it. You just cant beat good clean water when it comes to moving heat. With a few drops of biocide to keep things sterile and maybe a few drops of dye if you like color.

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Is it really that bad? I have mixed metals in the loop....I will need some kind of anti-corrosive fluid. Any other recommendations?

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Get ready for 30-35 bucks a jug then if you use XP+, or whateverthe lastest version that's supposed to have addressed some of the issues people have been having. You can get good anti corrosion additives for a lot less than what they are charging for XP+

I use Pentosin, and it has good anti corrosion properties. If you use this, and change fluid often as I suggested above, you most likey as safe as you'll ever be IMO. With XP, you'll still need to change often, and it's price is silly IMO.

andyc

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Is Zerex or Pentosin available in the US or Canada? Seems to be heavily used by Europeans, but I don't know if we have it in Canada. I know you can get it from Petra's, but it's out of stock and I was hoping to pick it up sooner.

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Originally Posted by masaville

I know you can get it from Petra's, but it's out of stock and I was hoping to pick it up sooner.

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Are you sure? It sure looks like it is in stock at Petras:

http://www.petrastechshop.com/peg11coadb4o.html
http://www.petrastechshop.com/peg12coaduvr.html
http://www.petrastechshop.com/loliredcoad.html (not Pentosin but basically the same stuff)

Its also available at your neighborhood Audi dealer (in blue), BMW dealer (in blue), VW dealer (in red/pink) and Mercedes dealer (in orange). Its named differently for the various auto brands, and the chemical compositions may be a tiny bit different, but its all Pentosin.

Valvoline Zerex Super Racing Coolant is available at almost all Napa auto parts stores, and I'm sure also at Autozone and Pep Boys. Make sure its the Super Racing Zerex (pink) and not the regular Zerex (green).

And stay away from Prestone and PEAK :) :)

If you are adventurous, you can go down to your local Ferrari dealership and ask for some of their proprietary clear antifreeze. Tell them your Enzo needs a flush :) but you only need like 50 ml rofl :) You may have to give up your left hand though lol :)

And if you use Zerex, *do not* follow the instruction of a 5% mix, aka 5/95. 5% concentration is too strong for Zerex and you run the danger of crystallization and potential clogging a more restrictive block like the Storm or AquaExtreme.

I personally have had success with using a 1% to 2% concentration, but it may upset you guys that look for a more "bling" look :) I have no regard for appearances.

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Originally Posted by IanY

And stay away from Prestone and PEAK :) :)

If you are adventurous, you can go down to your local Ferrari dealership and ask for some of their proprietary clear antifreeze. Tell them your Enzo needs a flush :) but you only need like 50 ml rofl :) You may have to give up your left hand though lol :)

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LOL good one. Made me laugh.

I just picked up a gallon of it at the local Audi dealer....G11. Only one fellow knew it by the name of Pentosin, but nobody else did. When I said G12 and G11 they caught on. Now I have enough to last me....well.....forever lol.

Btw, if I'm mixing metals - copper, anondized aluminum, and brass 5% should be fine right? Or do I even need 5% with distilled water?

I believe G11 doesn't have anti corrosion from what I've researched. It's G12 that does. Zerex at 2-3% or G12 is what you want for mixed metals.

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Originally Posted by ramenchef

I believe G11 doesn't have anti corrosion from what I've researched. It's G12 that does. Zerex at 2-3% or G12 is what you want for mixed metals.

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You might find this link helpful. G11 is HOAT, G12 (+) is OAT.

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Originally Posted by IanY

If you are adventurous, you can go down to your local Ferrari dealership and ask for some of their proprietary clear antifreeze. Tell them your Enzo needs a flush :) but you only need like 50 ml rofl :) You may have to give up your left hand though lol :)

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Not necessarily, you can try to wing it and siphon some out of someones ferrari.

On second hand you might not even have to. Someone I know was at the track on open day a while back and they had a pair of Enzo's there, and boy, they were an embarasement, both leaking coolant and oil everywhere, it was pitiful.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Nice link,

I see what "OAT" is as described, but not what "HOAT" is. Am I missing something, very intersting none the less.

thanks,

andyc

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From what I've just read in automative threads, G12 is superior to 11 in thermal heat transfer, anti-corrosion, etc. and was designed for aluminum engines. So, based on the above you could technically use G11 or G12, but with G12 you won't run into any issues with silicates (maybe not in G11 either).

So....should I keep this G11 I have for my copper/anod. aluminum loop or run back and get some G12???

-----------------------------------
Unlike the previous coolant, this newly developed product permits a
cooling system fill that lasts the service life of the engine and
was designed with all-aluminum engines in mind.

Advantages over previous coolant:
Improved corrosion protection
Improve thermal stability
Improved heat transfer/control
Improved hard water tolerance
Improved environmental protection
CAUTION!G 012 A8D A1 must NEVER be mixed with any other coolant.
Engine damage will result !

Don't mix G11 and G12 heh.


Here's a real interesting thread about G11 and G12.

http://www.gti-vr6.net/wiki/index.ph...ine_coolant%3F

I especially like the part about lifetime coolant with a 2 yr shelf life. lol

From the sounds of it, both of them are just as good.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

From Petra's... is non-foaming

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This is :bs: , I can foam that stuff like mad.

Here is one of the things I read:

g11 was designed to prevent corrosion in aluminum blocks and G12 was designed to prevent corrosion in alloy blocks.

By blocks, they are referring to engine blocks.
From that I concluded, probably mistakenly after reading this thread, that G11 wasn't good for mixed metal loops and that G12 should be used instead.

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Originally Posted by ramenchef

Here is one of the things I read:

g11 was designed to prevent corrosion in aluminum blocks and G12 was designed to prevent corrosion in alloy blocks.

By blocks, they are referring to engine blocks.
From that I concluded, probably mistakenly after reading this thread, that G11 wasn't good for mixed metal loops and that G12 should be used instead.

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Think I should be okay - guess we'll find out. Heh.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

I'm thinking fluid being emulsified by air when first filing the loop is a little different than foaming. If it wasn't anti foaming, than foam would be seeping out of my fill line now.

if you want to see the difference, just drop 3-4 drops of dish washing liquid in a test loop after the airs bleed out. Then you can see what true foaming is.

At least that's my thoughts,

andyc

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Well, the G11/distilled mix is running in a single loop now on a BIX480, cooling 2 x 8800 GTXs and a 6700. There was some initial foam when I bled the loop, but that has since subsided. It was minor.

As for temps, they seem slightly higher at idle than the Zalman G200/Fluid XP, but it's so marginal at this point and also too early to tell. Gotta put a load on it and run some tests and see what happens.

It was super easy to bleed the 480 rad with the res mounted above it. Took a whole 2 mins if that.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

good to hear. what ratio did you do your mix in?

Gl luck on the build,

andyc

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5%, I believe that's what you stated you're using? I read elsewhere that it's plenty. Guess we'll see.

Temps under load seem to be just about the same....GPU is up maybe 2 degrees on avg compared to the g200/distilled and fluid xp I had in there before, but that might not be the fluid. It could be anything as I remounted the CPU, repasted, etc.

Do I need any PT nuke in there or similar?

I'll be posting lots of pics soon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but G11 should be at a 10% ratio according to Petra's site. I could be wrong though.

Though I'd like to point out that from personal experience, mixing is okay:

o I've used a Koolance EXOS AL with an MCW5002 and DD Maze4gpu for about two years straight. No corrosion whatsoever occurred.

o The EXOS uses an Al radiator

o The MCW5002 features a Cu base and an anodized Al housing

o Maze4gpu is part Cu and part acetal

I used water and plenty of Redline Waterwetter.

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Originally Posted by L33T

mixing is okay

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Not that simple. Weather its ok depends on certain criterion. There are three conditions that must exist for galvanic corrosion to occur. First there must be two electrochemically dissimilar metals present. Second, there must be an electrically conductive path between the two metals. And third, there must be a conductive path for the metal ions to move from the more anodic metal to the more cathodic metal.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Nice link,

I see what "OAT" is as described, but not what "HOAT" is. Am I missing something, very intersting none the less.

thanks,

andyc

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HOAT is a silicate-OAT hybrid, it is mentioned in the link, but not by its abbreviation, my oversight sorry.

P.S. : G11, G12, G12+ have biocides inside, I haven't had any contamination issues ( or other) in 5 years of use.

Here is an example of what happens if you mix copper and aluminium in one setup with just water:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~nagte/rot1.jpg

That is after only 1 year. Picture is taken after cleaning of the part. Before cleaning, all components were covered in a 5mm thick layer of brown stuff.
So that's the risk of two different materials in 1 setup. Maybe this wouldn't have been so bad if I had used engine coolant or something similar.

Even if you feel like you can trust a companies anodized aluminum, take a look to what happened to my dual Swiftech MCW5000s (copper base / alu top).

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1...0001rc5.th.jpg

And check the interior of the BIX I , that was also in the same loop as the blocks.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6...0016my2.th.jpg

I was using 90% H2O + 10% Engine Coolant.

For me, mixing Aluminium and Copper/Bras in the same loop it's totally forbiden. Never again.

Between a Thermoochill radiator, a Laing pump and supposed copper waterblocks, how sure are we that there is absolutely zero aluminum in the loop? if there's really no aluminum, then why is there a need to use antifreeze additive? Plain distilled should do, right?

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Between a Thermoochill radiator, a Laing pump and supposed copper waterblocks, how sure are we that there is absolutely zero aluminum in the loop?

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100% if using D-Tek FuZion, DangerDen RBX or TDX, or Swiftech MCW6000 & Later (Apo, G4, ApoGT series blocks), Laing D4 thru DDC+, and any ThermoChill rad...

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Originally Posted by Gabriel Noraa

...
I was using 90% H2O + 10% Engine Coolant.

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What coolant was that?

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And check the interior of the BIX I , that was also in the same loop as the blocks.

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Hard to tell what's solder and what isn't there...

My Swiftech blocks all ended up the same as yours despite running 10% Zerex / 90% distilled and flushing/refilling with fresh mixture every 6 months... MCW462, MCW5002, MCW20, MCW40... all the same... DD original Ali Top'd Maze4 likewise... Innovatek Rev3 CPU Block likewise...

All anodised... anti-corrosive additive used precisely to manufacturer's mix ratio for proper protection rather than clear-tubing... all still corroded within 18 months. The swiftech blocks ended up with corrosive pits around half a mm deep iirc... s'why back then I went with dangerden - no aluminium used at all...

Those are some pretty nasty pictures.

Marci....is 5% enough G11 or should I be using 10%? I thought I read somewhere that 5% would be more than enough. Thanks.

I've decided to ditch my aluminum reservoirs. Moving to Delrin/Acrylic....thanks for the advice. Lots of threads about aluminum corrosion were enough to scare me into buying two acrylic reservoirs. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Marci

Brass and Copper are side by side effectively in the galvanic series - corrosion won't occur between them.

Aluminium however is further apart in the galvanic series, so corrosion will occur between Alu & Brass, or Alu & Copper, or Alu vs Brass&Copper.

Anodized aluminium is fine to use in a loop if you can GUARANTEE that the quality of anodizing is perfect. The slightest scratch that goes thru the anodized layer, exposing bare aluminium underneath, will result in corrosion taking place very quickly. FluidXP etc will slow down the problem, but if you don't change the FluidXP frequently enough then corrosion will still take place. Same applies to distilled water and anti-corrosive additive.

As you can't guarantee the quality of the anodizing in the hardware within our scene, it's just safer to steer clear of aluminium altogether.

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Originally Posted by Fairydust

What coolant was that?

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I don't remember, it has past quite a few time since that. In my loop right know there is only Delrin, Acrylic, Copper and Brass.

Good point Andy. I bought two EKs myself so I'm glad to hear you like yours.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

yup,

I had the exact same res as yours and did the exact same thing just to be safe. I went with the EK res, and they are great. Becuase the last thing I want to see in my loop is the condition above.

Bummer in a way. The concept of the XSPC res is really cool and I loved the way they looked, but better to eat 70.00 now than 1000.00 later IMO.

I still might try it in a lesser rig on some old stuff.

gl,

andyc

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Originally Posted by Marci

Hard to tell what's solder and what isn't there...

My Swiftech blocks all ended up the same as yours despite running 10% Zerex / 90% distilled and flushing/refilling with fresh mixture every 6 months... MCW462, MCW5002, MCW20, MCW40... all the same... DD original Ali Top'd Maze4 likewise... Innovatek Rev3 CPU Block likewise...

All anodised... anti-corrosive additive used precisely to manufacturer's mix ratio for proper protection rather than clear-tubing... all still corroded within 18 months. The swiftech blocks ended up with corrosive pits around half a mm deep iirc... s'why back then I went with dangerden - no aluminium used at all...

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What about swiftech mcw60? Any aluminum there?

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Originally Posted by Marci

Brass and Copper are side by side effectively in the galvanic series - corrosion won't occur between them.

Aluminium however is further apart in the galvanic series, so corrosion will occur between Alu & Brass, or Alu & Copper, or Alu vs Brass&Copper.

Anodized aluminium is fine to use in a loop if you can GUARANTEE that the quality of anodizing is perfect. The slightest scratch that goes thru the anodized layer, exposing bare aluminium underneath, will result in corrosion taking place very quickly. FluidXP etc will slow down the problem, but if you don't change the FluidXP frequently enough then corrosion will still take place. Same applies to distilled water and anti-corrosive additive.

As you can't guarantee the quality of the anodizing in the hardware within our scene, it's just safer to steer clear of aluminium altogether.

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Quality Advice right there..

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What about swiftech mcw60? Any aluminum there?

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Copper base, injected plastic top... no aluminium.

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Marci....is 5% enough G11 or should I be using 10%?

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The "right" amount is that recommended by the manufacturer to attain full anticorrosive properties. That's the ONLY "right" amount.

This however causes clouding etc, so watercoolers use LESS than the "right" amount, meaning it's all guesswork, not a precise figure and thus so is it's corrosion controlling abilities. If you're NOT using the manufacturer's precise mix ratio, then you cannot guarantee that you're coolant is anticorrosive.

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Originally Posted by Marci

Copper base, injected plastic top... no aluminium.



The "right" amount is that recommended by the manufacturer to attain full anticorrosive properties. That's the ONLY "right" amount.

This however causes clouding etc, so watercoolers use LESS than the "right" amount, meaning it's all guesswork, not a precise figure and thus so is it's corrosion controlling abilities. If you're NOT using the manufacturer's precise mix ratio, then you cannot guarantee that you're coolant is anticorrosive.

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Thanks for the update - appreciated.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

oh yeah,

with the Pentosin mix in them, they are purddy. There well made, crystal clear and functional as hell too with the muti way top.

Good luck,

andyc

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Are you using your EKs to support more than one loop or just the one?

This is all very confusing. Most, if not all, of us have all copper loops. There's no aluminum in any of our loops, generally speaking. Yet, if we don't change our fluid, the tubes get cloudy, which may be the tubes themselves, but we end up with gunk/sludge/goop (I'm searching for the appropriate word) in our water blocks... eventually. We can brag about opening up our blocks a year later and finding that its clean etc., but we all know that eventually some sort of nasty residue forms. This is whether we use ethylene glycol, biocide or any other chemicals. Why is that so?

I'm trying to hint without having to directly say it... see my posts within http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...50#post2060150 & http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=136514

Read you loud and clear. Slaps my face like a wall of bricks. I wonder if anyone else gets the not-so-sublimal message.

could not have been clearer even if written in CAPS , thanks for the insite marci

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Originally Posted by Marci

I'm trying to hint without having to directly say it... see my posts within http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...50#post2060150 & http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=136514

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Good info there Marc. Kind of silly that none of us thought to contact Saint-Gobain before.

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Table 1.1.4 - The Nobility of Common Metals

1. Aluminum
2. Zinc
3. Steel
4. Iron
5. Stainless Steel - Active
6. Tin
7. Lead
8. Copper
9. Stainless Steel - Passive

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The order of Alu+Zinc on here does not match any other table I can find on, or off, the net.

mccoffey--Thanks for the chart. I don't mean to question you, but do you have a source that I can verify? I would just like to know how you obtained your information and verify that it's 100% accurate.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Xion X2

mccoffey--Thanks for the chart. I don't mean to question you, but do you have a source that I can verify? I would just like to know how you obtained your information and verify that it's 100% accurate.

Thanks!

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Almost any high school chemistry text book would do that for you.

EDIT:

For example, mine had it as a chart near the back.