SSD Write Endurance 25nm Vs 34nm

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Originally Posted by Ao1

Innuendo blaming everyone (including end users) and the dog is not helpful and just comes over as an attempt to deflect the problem away from SF2xxx products.



More innuendo with no substantiaition :shakes:...oh let me guess NDA :ROTF:

I have updated the firmware on my V3 whenever f/w versions have been released. I ran the endurance app for 7 days straight (~168 hours). I have installed Win 7 and Win 8 in my main PC without any tweaks whatsoever. I’ve installed the V3 as an OS drive in two different laptops, again with zero tweaks. I have used sleep in all instances.

Not a single problem to report. SF2xxx drives seem to either work or not work regardless of the configuration.

Despite the fact that some drives appear to work OK the potential for data loss, combined with the fact that neither SF nor any of the vendors know what the problem is makes the situation unacceptable. Forget trying voodoo, in my view SF2xx products should be recalled.

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And you wonder why I rarely post on here any more ;) think who I am dealing with, think what they would do if i disclosed everything I know...sometimes you guys live in a strange world where you forget everything is covered by embargo and NDA.

You guys do a good job, you would do better diverting some attention to testing Oroms for stability...there must be bios modders here who can inject the files...see what you find, I have end users doing this now with marked differences in stability.

Don't think the host controller/motherboards always work correctly...they never do, check the release notes with the oroms and RST..check the errata for the chipsets and make sure you are not fighting known bugs.

All I want now is for all motherboard manufacturers to get on the newest and most stable Orom, then I can get FW build that suits and works well with that Orom...and we all move forward. As it is now, im fighting boards on 10.1, 10.3, 10.5 some on 10.6 and a few which generally give no issues on 11.

Regards some of the things you guys have found....we watch what you are doing and like i said you do good work...just don't feel I have to break NDA to justify what I say..I do not and will not.

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my view SF2xx products should be recalled.

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never going to happen, you guys think the bsod issue is MASSIVE...its not, we have been selling 100k+ drives a month and no where near 100K of them show this issue or come back on RMA. My POLL thread has 160 people tops posting and near 50% of them are having a more positive experience...There is an issue for some and we are working on it..and yes making progress.

I run an MSI 890FXA GD80 here with a 1090T at 3.8, ram at 1200 6-5-5-18 (8GB 1T) memory controller at 2800mhz, main OS drive Revo 480 x2, secondary test OS drives vtx3, vtx3maxIO, Agy3, solid3, Revo3 x2, Revo3...you name it I have run it...and for day to day I have no tweaks, the machine hybrid sleeps (even with the old revo's) and with the single drives I test Hibernation also..and I have never seen an issue except 2 drives disconnecting which I cured with a reg hack to force the sata ports to Internal mode only...so just like Ao1 I run for hours and hours and never see issues....i have not seen what the end users call a BSOD issue on any of the drives I have here and I have 20+ sata3 drives to hand. I tested these drives on Asus p67, Asrok Z68, MSI Z68 etc etc....never seen an issue.

It baffles me, i hoped it was just the drive as then I knew we could fix it...now im thinking its connected to something else that I have no control over.

So here is the challenge guys, join in the search, test the crap out of all the Oroms, all the drivers, all the boards, all the CPU's and all the drives you can...see if you can come up with what causes the boards to disconnect the drives, we can share notes ;) Just don't ask me for what I know to date...as you guessed it...I can not tell ;)

Kingston SSDNow 40GB (X25-V)

371.45TB Host writes
Reallocated sectors : 10
MD5 OK

35.13MiB/s on avg (~24 hours)

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Corsair Force 3 120GB

01 92/50 (Raw read error rate)
05 2 (Retired Block count)
B1 54 (Wear range delta)
E6 100 (Life curve status)
E7 72 (SSD Life left)
E9 114262 (Raw writes)
F1 152229 (Host writes)

110.03MiB/s on avg (~24 hours).

power on hours : 439

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony

My POLL thread has 160 people tops posting and near 50% of them are having a more positive experience...There is an issue for some and we are working on it..and yes making progress.

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Yeah, but a number of people posting in the poll to say the problem had gone away where people that had previously stated they had not had a problem and/ or had voted on a previous poll to say the preceding firmware fix had resolved their problem. :rofl:

There are always going to be bugs out there, it’s a question of the extent of bugs that seem to only affect SF2xxx SSD’s. Plenty of people have reported changing to non SF brands only to see the problem disappear. :shrug:

Anyway this is going off topic, so I wish you the best of luck finding the problem.

Tony,

Coming in to this, while I was waiting on my drive to arrive in the mail, I posted a comment about "seeing what this SF2xxx issue was all about." I don't think you learn from things that go right, but rather from the things that go wrong. I don't think the problem is widespread... I don't see craven mobs with torches and pitchforks at banging on manufacturer's doors. Rather, I think some drives just don't work with some motherboards (in this kind of scenario). I think if I was using my SF2281 as God intended, I wouldn't have run into these issues [to the extent that I have]. Truth is, I've learned a lot in just the two weeks I've been testing, and at the bare minimum it's a way to stave off the bordom of unemployment. I'm willing to try anything twice, and while some of what I have read strikes me as "unorthodox", I've kept an open mind about what others (such as yourself) have introduced into the discussion. By all means, if you have any advice, you know where we're at, and I personally would welcome any such guidance, no matter how seemingly ridiculous or sound the advice might appear. But what the hell would I know? Probably not much, but that's why I'm doing this. As I wrote earlier, it's not aggravating that I'm having these problems, it's aggravating that I might not be able to fix it -- but then that's half the fun (and anguish). If I wanted easy, I'd scrapbook or collect stamps.

If you're actually saying that you're having difficulty tracking down cases with these drives, then you can at least add a couple to the mix, but I certainly don't think we're just polishing the brass on the Titanic.


Regards,
Christopher

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Originally Posted by Tony

So here is the challenge guys, join in the search, test the crap out of all the Oroms, all the drivers, all the boards, all the CPU's and all the drives you can...see if you can come up with what causes the boards to disconnect the drives, we can share notes ;) Just don't ask me for what I know to date...as you guessed it...I can not tell ;)

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Whether true or not that you signed something saying you could not share information with customers that might help customers to find out FOR YOU why your company's products are defective, such claims are certainly a good reason for people not to buy OCZ products.

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Originally Posted by johnw

Whether true or not that you signed something saying you could not share information with customers that might help customers to find out FOR YOU why your company's products are defective, such claims are certainly a good reason for people not to buy OCZ products.

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John...we wait on X79, im hopefull "2281 will just work better all of a sudden" ;)

then we will start asking why it does not work as well on P67 and Z68

if off now, just could not leave the voodoo quote without saying a few words ;) LOL

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Originally Posted by Tony

John...we wait on X79, im hopefull "2281 will just work better all of a sudden" ;)

then we will start asking why it does not work as well on P67 and Z68

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So, customers should wait for new chipsets to come out to find out why OCZ's products are defective. Another good reason to avoid OCZ products.

Care to go for a third?

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Originally Posted by DooRules

Attachment 120861

there are these alpha version...
http://www.pctreiber.net/2011/intel-...a-version.html

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So do these only work with gigabyte and asrock?

Scratch that. I've got it working...

Seems to be a good deal faster back on this Intel board with RST 11 Alpha.

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Originally Posted by johnw

So, customers should wait for new chipsets to come out to find out why OCZ's products are defective. Another good reason to avoid OCZ products.

Care to go for a third?

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im sorry m8 but i will never get my point over to you...lets agree to disagree and move on ehh?

Kingston SSDNow 40GB (X25-V)

372.70TB Host writes
Reallocated sectors : 10
MD5 OK

34.33MiB/s on avg (~35 hours)

--

Corsair Force 3 120GB

01 92/50 (Raw read error rate)
05 2 (Retired Block count)
B1 56 (Wear range delta)
E6 100 (Life curve status)
E7 71 (SSD Life left)
E9 117492 (Raw writes)
F1 156526 (Host writes)

110.05MiB/s on avg (~35 hours).

power on hours : 451

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnw

Whether true or not that you signed something saying you could not share information with customers that might help customers to find out FOR YOU why your company's products are defective, such claims are certainly a good reason for people not to buy OCZ products.

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While I won't buy any of there new drives at this time or recommended them at least til someone knows what the deal is with it causing issues and that it can be contained to certain products. Though I understand where Tony is coming from. While doing R&D you have NDA's that you have to agree too. Weather its a large flaw that can't be fixed, or something that is testing that might be promising but ends up failing they have to go through the ropes to see if and what will work before releasing to the public. Because if they release something that creates more issues in some other form its a PR nightmare. Sadly its a waiting game hope its gets fixed so people that want a flawless experience from the get go have more options of drives to select.

And more on topic... Common B.A.T where is our M4 fix for us waiting for that drive to fail. :)

M225->Vertex Turbo 64GB Update:

433.66 TiB (476.82 TB) total
1176.96 hours
9004 Raw Wear
117.31 MB/s avg for the last 16.48 hours (on W7 x64)
MD5 OK
C4-Erase Failure Block Count (Realloc Sectors) at 6.
(Bank 6/Block 2406; Bank 3/Block 3925; Bank 0/Block 1766; Bank 0/Block 829; Bank 4/Block 3191; Bank 7/Block 937)

Attachment 120874

I am really amazed by the M4. The C300 really has a lot to live up to !

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Originally Posted by deathman20

And more on topic... Common B.A.T where is our M4 fix for us waiting for that drive to fail. :)

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I can't promise any failure yet, but I can at least help you with the daily fix :up:

m4
610.5414 TiB
2232 hours
Avg speed 91.11 MiB/s.
AD gone from 05 to 02.
P/E 10643.
MD5 OK.
Still no reallocated sectors
Attachment 120877Attachment 120878

Kingston V+100
122.9812 TiB
483 hours
Avg speed 76.15 MiB/s.
AD gone from 80 to 73.
P/E ?.
MD5 OK.
Attachment 120875Attachment 120876

SSDLife shows 2% for the second time with the m4, but I don't know if they know more than the smartvalues shows us.

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Originally Posted by deathman20

so people that want a flawless experience from the get go have more options of drives to select

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As I said, it is a reason not to buy OCZ products. Better to go with Crucial, Samsung, or Intel, who make no such excuses about NDAs preventing them from helping fix their defective products.

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Originally Posted by Tony

im sorry m8 but i will never get my point over to you...

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What point? That OCZ has defective SSDs and OCZ makes nothing but excuses about NDAs and waiting for new chipsets? That point? I got it, surely.

The Force 3 is still running, > 41 hours w/o disconnects.
(all power savings disabled)

I was hoping it was ready for a test on OROM 11 :), if it lasts another 10 hours it will be a new record.

Its very simple to find where the problem is, with the help of little bit of logic.

FACTS:
1. M4 works on a mobo/chipset/firmware/software combo. So does Intel and Samsung.
2. Vertex 3 fails on the same combo.

CONCLUSION:
Vertex 3 has bugs which need to be fixed.

Whether those are hardware/software compatibility bugs or real bugs in the drive's firmware, I don't care! As an end-user, I will buy what works with my system.

For OCZ, it will make business sense to say "Yes, we know there is an issue. We will fix at the earliest time possible." What will destroy the customer base is things like "its to do with power-savings implementation in such and such chipset" or "it happens only less than 10% of the times".

Sure, there are issues with SF-2281 based drives, not just the Vertex 3.
The question is what is triggering the error and why aren't all drives affected.

We are getting a bit off topic (and that includes configuring our systems for this test) and so I'm thinking of creating a "SandForce" thread.

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Originally Posted by Anvil

Sure, there are issues with SF-2281 based drives, not just the Vertex 3.
The question is what is triggering the error and why aren't all drives affected.

We are getting a bit off topic (and that includes configuring our systems for this test) and so I'm thinking of creating a "SandForce" thread.

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As long as we're testing SF 2281 drives, this thread is inexorably tied to at least a couple SandForce drives. What are your intentions for this other thread?

Short of buying some motherboard that the Mushkin likes, it may just be a fact of testing these drives, that they're going to lock up and disconnect or BSoD.

Eventually it won't be noteworthy any more.

Attachment 120879

Last night I installed my Intel Extreme motherboard back in. I installed the RST Alpha 11 package, and was getting some great speed, but it crashed soon after.

I uninstalled the RST 11 package, and reinstalled 10.6.whatever. I still get the speed boost in Avg MBs.

The primary issue is that there will be a lot of noise that relates to why the SF-2xxx drives does not work.
With a separate thread for discussing/trying workarounds (that's really what we are doing) a lot more people can get involved without "littering" this thread.

Sure we will still have to post what changes we have made but not to the same extent.

Wrt your Intel MB, did you get the 11.x option ROM or just the RST Kit?

+1 for a SF thread to keep this thread on topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anvil

The primary issue is that there will be a lot of noise that relates to why the SF-2xxx drives does not work.
With a separate thread for discussing/trying workarounds (that's really what we are doing) a lot more people can get involved without "littering" this thread.

Sure we will still have to post what changes we have made but not to the same extent.

Wrt your Intel MB, did you get the 11.x option ROM or just the RST Kit?

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Okay, new thread it is! That works for me.

I just got those alpha RST 11 drivers, it looks like the new ORoms are just for Gigabytes and Asrocks, unless someone knows something that might help otherwise.

But when I uninstalled them and reinstalled 11 I still got the speed... which is why I'm confused. I couldn't even get close to those speeds with the old configuration.

I upgraded the BIOS as well to the rescinded 2053 BIOS I had (which is terrible BTW), but maybe that's the source of the speed. It has a slightly updated (?) 10.6 orom.


EDIT
To make the BIOS work I had to do some re configuring (I had to put in a 4000 series AMD card instead of the nVidia -- but now the system only pulls 43w from the wall while running ASU, down from 49w-51w), and my RAM won't work at higher than 1067MHz at the moment.

What is the status of the Corsair F40-A?

SymbiosVyse, did you ever get it figured out?

Kingston SSDNow 40GB (X25-V)

373.98TB Host writes
Reallocated sectors : 10
MD5 OK

33.91MiB/s on avg (~46 hours)

--

Corsair Force 3 120GB

01 92/50 (Raw read error rate)
05 2 (Retired Block count)
B1 57 (Wear range delta)
E6 100 (Life curve status)
E7 70 (SSD Life left)
E9 120830 (Raw writes)
F1 160968 (Host writes)

110.07MiB/s on avg (~46 hours).

power on hours : 463

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Further discussions on workarounds and suggestions for the SF-22xx based drives will take place in the new thread.
Link