Fukushima I is the same generation as Chernobyl NPP (both made in the 70's), until 1986 graphite was considered safe as it absorbs radiation and various toxic chemical byproducts very well.
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Fukushima I is the same generation as Chernobyl NPP (both made in the 70's), until 1986 graphite was considered safe as it absorbs radiation and various toxic chemical byproducts very well.
so yeah, fuel rods are 4m long, and you can see people outside the reactors as a refernece as well, less than 2m...
so the reactor buildings are around 50m tall... the cooling towers are then around 150m tall...
and the concrete roof of reactor3 was blown up almost 3x as high as the cooling towards, so around 400-500 meters into the air... daym.... :eek:
thats a massive explosion... right in the center of the reactor building...
honestly, to me it seems almost impossible that this happens without damaging the reactor pressure vessel, IF the pressure vessel itself wasnt the source of the explosion...
if the explosion happened at the top of the reactor, above the pool, then the walls would get blown off to the sides and the roof to the top, right?
but at reactor3 the entire structure is damaged, even below the pool level! how could that happen?
why would the explosion go DOWN on the structure? that doesnt make sense to me...
and even IF this would have happened ABOVE the pool level, then the force would have pushed the seal above the reactor pressure vessel down onto it and have damaged it...
if you ask me, the reactor pressure vessel popped in reactor3, thats the massive explosion we saw and thats why the structure is damaged even below the pool level...
and we are lucky that the pool is still in tact!
and we will be lucky if the fuel rods are still within the structure... i hope they were pushed down into the concrete/graphite pool by the explosion and not up and out of the structure...
yeah but they knew better for a while now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Micutzu
so does anybody know if they removed the graphite or its still there? :S
I'll say it again and again. It's time to stop mucking around and bury it under concrete. They should of started this as soon as the containment units blew up.
No amount of water will do anything at this point since the radiation has already been pluming for days, they just don't want to talk about it.
Saaya, I think you underestimate just how powerful hydrogen can be ;).
Hydrogen is some powerful stuff...
Hydrogen as a power plant is iffy though.
It's wasteful, it uses up our water and oxygen, that's my opinion.
I have 2 examples but I'm unsure if it's a good idea... edit: I'm gonna del the stuff I posted because it's probably for the best.
its not that... im just not sure how it would explode downwards...Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOAethyr
thats the thing that rose my eyebrows...
if you fill the top of the structure, which is like an attic, with hydrogen and oxygen and blow it up, itll pop all 4 walls and the roof, sure...
why would it go downwards and damage the corners of the building?
those areas of the structure are many many times stronger than the walls around the top of the reactor... as soon as the walls are off, the pressure escapes towards the top or horizontally... why would it break off the edges of the central structure?
im just saying, of course im not an expert...
but to me it looks like the explosion happened below the pool level...
and dont you think its odd?
reactor2 suffered an explosion and the structure is still mostly in tact, yet they admit the containment vessel has been damaged...
reactor3 is in MUCH worse shape, but somehow, miraculously the containment vessel is supposed to be... just fine...? :confused:
just saying, all this stuff doesnt add up to me as an amateur... not saying its bs...
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/18_26.html
*twiddling thumbs*Quote:
Kan promises to disclose all info on Fukushima
Japan's Prime Minister Naoto Kan says the government will make every effort to disclose information about the quake-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.
well?
its been half a day since he made those comments...
i havent heard a single thing since then...
:rolleyes:
whenever somebody promises to tell the truth, without saying anything else right after this, you know hes still lying, lol...
yeah i lied and held back some infos, im sorry, i will tell you the truth now...
*silence* ...
btw, has anybody else lost all trust and confidence in the IAEA after this?
they havent done a THING... claiming they were waiting for japan to ask them for help and advice... oh come on... when a reactor blows up you proactively contact the local gov and visit the place right away, whether they want it or not...
imagine a plane crashes somewhere and the aviation industry watchdog doesnt travel to the crash site because... oh well, nobody gave us a call...
German media claims that Japan might ask Germany for radio controlled robots, made for the use in nuclear power plants. I mean, WTF, Japan is one of the country with the most robots and the main manufacturer of robots and they don't have such things? You gotta be kidding me!
Too much crap going around in this thread. Almost like this is 4chan :D
Right. Let's just bury our problem and hope it goes away. I'd much rather have them cool the cores, figure out wtf went wrong, recover as much of the fuel rods(melted or not) and then tear down the entire building and process it properly for disposal. Doesn't it make more sense to learn from this and clean the mess up instead of leaving another abandoned industrial complex like Chernobyl?Quote:
Originally Posted by Think
lol? Last I checked when you combust hydrogen with oxygen you yield water. Last I also checked about 70% of our planet is covered in water. I think we have enough water to spare a few million gallons of water tied up in a hydrogen economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOAethyr
Attachment 112964Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Check it out. The results of a car bomb. Notice how miraculously the ground underneath the carbomb is also damaged. Explosions don't just direct all their energy upwards.
Also, the explosions in the various reactor buildings likely weren't located in the same part of the structures or of the same size. Those are pretty big buildings, as you yourself noted, and perhaps in one instance the cooling pools had a hydrogen buildup but in another instance vented hydrogen was the source of the buildup.
Maybe Germany has a company that specializes in these things? Just like if you needed a robot to fly a few hundred miles and ruin someone's day with a missile that you just might call up an American company to supply this?Quote:
Originally Posted by FischOderAal
japan has highly specialized robots...Quote:
Originally Posted by FischOderAal
and they announced the weather, danced, walked upstairs and downstairs, and rode a bicycle in a circle for a week now... with almost no effect on radiation... :shrug:
sorry, couldnt resist :D
gomeler... true, but a road isnt exactly solid ground...
but yeah, i guess the explosion could have blown off the lower edges of the structure...
still, dont you think the claim that the containment vessel is just fine after this sounds too good to be true?
Well I don't trust any of the nuke people's lol but that's just me ;).
What really bothers me though (and it does) is how they handled the evac's around the area.
As soon as it happened, oh if you're 10km away..., lol ^^.
It should of been 100km from the get go duh...
Then the usa comes in, says hey american peep's, you guys better get farther away then that, at least 80km away...
Mmm, nah on 2nd thaught you should leave japan and we will help get you out...
Politics are scary..., yeah I said that...
Edit:
[XC] gomeler
I heard the same about combusting it but never thought it was actually true :).
You might be right. Just did a google search and one Austrian news site claims they are "Made in Germany". It's still strange that the robot-loving Japanese don't have some for such cases oOQuote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
i dont think they COULD have moved all those people to a further radius even if they wanted to...Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOAethyr
remember, they got 500.000 people in shelters right now accross the country... the evac zone they went for already resulted in moving 200.000 people... and thats only 20km...
i think foreigners are advised to move further away... because they can...
Uhh. I'm not even going to tear this one apart .Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Radiation levels around Fukushima for March 16th have been put into handy graph format. They are the official figures by MEXT, measure in MICRO sieverts. The highest value at the edge of the 30km zone is 150uSv/h. That’s a high amount for people living on the 30km border (remember it accumulates every hour). There are also some 0.04 and 0.05mSv.h values around the 30km border (about the value of a chest x-ray), but the rest are much lower. Still, considering these values were taken at the 30km border, I wouldn’t want to be someone living just outside the evacuation radius. It’s been several days now that the plant has been spewing out radiation and it all gradually builds up.
http://www.mext.go.jp/component/a_me...1303727_12.pdf
So not too bad in some places but definitely worth getting out of town for a few weeks to let it all die down.Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
http://www.jrc.or.jp/english/relief/..._00002070.html
Japan／Earthquake Donation
11/03/14
We heartily appreciate your kind offer of donation.
If you want to donate money to the affected population of earthquake and tsunami, please contact your national Red Cross/Crescent society, which may have already launched fundraising campaign within your country.
If your national society doesn’t collect donation or you wish to send your donations directly to the Japanese Red Cross Society, please direct your fund to the following bank account. If you need the receipt of your fund, please state so clearly in the comment section of the bank transfer order. All the fund received under this account will be transferred to the Distribution Committee, which is formed around the local government of the disaster-affected prefecture and to be distributed directly among the affected population of earthquake and tsunami,
Name of Bank: Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation
Name of Branch: Ginza
Account No.: 8047670 (Ordinary Account)
SWIFT Code: SMBC JP JT
Payee Name: The Japanese Red Cross Society
Payee Address: 1-1-3 Shiba-Daimon Minato-ku, Tokyo JAPAN
Thank you once again for your generous offer. It is surely the source of encouragement for the affected population in Japan.
For our operation updates, please have a look at the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies site. →here
Latest news
Today cooling operations have continued on problem reactors 3 and 4. The SDF used a number of fire engines with extendable arms to blast water down into the damaged roof of both units in an attempt to fill up the spent fuel pool with water. A total of 50 tonnes of water was delivered over a period of 40 minutes. Tonight a task force from the Tokyo Fire and Disaster Management Agency will attempt to keep water pouring on the third reactor. A plan had been devised to link up several fire trucks to shoot water over a long distance, but the damage caused by the earthquake made access difficult. However, the team managed to link up the fire trucks from a great distance to transport water over 300m in order to douse reactor unit 3 from a height of 22m. As of 00.30, the operation started and concluded at 00.50. There are also other teams attempting to install an external power source to return cooling operation to reactor units 1 and 2.
So, Japan is the country of the robots ... but nothing really useful huh? Maybe, instead of spending R&D on robots that go up and downstairs ... maybe something a little more useful for situations like this?
Damn... again ... i think there's lots of R&D resources spent on things which are of "dubious" utility ... and only in these situations, people understand that ...
Robots to play soccer ... Robots to dance ... but nothing that can really be useful in extreme situations ...
Bah...
mhhh are you ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
you're pretty rude in your recent posts... take it easy man...
mhhh was that from wednesday night where wind was blowing inland and reactor3 exploded and reactor4 was on fire? or is this updated daily?Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
too bad they dont show it on a map...
hmmm but its weird that radiation spiked this much in only spot, isnt it?
shouldnt it be more dispersed and radiation should be slowly increasing towards one direction/path that the material was blown?
pcwhisperer :toast:
[QUOTE]updated dailyQuote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Check here for the latest, click on （英語版）to read it in English
http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/saigaij...ai/1303726.htm
thanks for keeping this thread up to date posting news like this man :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
50tons... the same they delivered yesterday...
and i just remembered, on nhk they mentioned during a press conference that they estimate refilling the pools with 50tons per day should be sufficient to keep the water level stable.
so thats probably why they are doing this... to keep water levels steady until they got the original loop going again...
they always stopped to measure radiation... sounds like they thought the water was going to reduce radiation but it didnt...
so then the radiation is probably coming from the reactor3 and not the pool in reactor3...
well, to be fair, they built all those robots cause its challanging to make them do all this... and if you can build robots to do this, your getting closer and closer to a robot that can do all sorts of things... in the long run...Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmodum
i think other countries are more focusing on practicality...
[QUOTE=dctokyo;4784445]mhhhhQuote:
updated daily
Check here for the latest, click on （英語版）to read it in English
http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/saigaij...ai/1303726.htm
but didnt the wind blow to the sea all day?
how did radiation move against the wind? :confused:
The wind is always changing,Due to weather conditions changing at different altitudesQuote:
but didnt the wind blow to the sea all day?
how did radiation move against the wind? :confused:
Link to Fukushima Nuclear Weather Forecast
http://www.weather-forecast.com/loca...recasts/latest
Lol, Saaya, I think you're doing more harm then good with these posts, no offence ;).
I know it's natural for us to ask ?'s and be skeptical...
But when you look at it from a japanese perspective, what would you think readings these posts?
You'de be like, oh this could be more serious then what is being let on, a panic starts, etc.
Or maybe you'de say, wth, it's none of these people's business and it's not like they are helping so they should keep there mouths shut.
Etc etc.
Ya I knows this to be a discussion thread but...
I think we're being a bit over dramatic.
Sure this effects everyone but we can't do a darn thing about it can we :).
I don't mean to point fingers or anything.
It's just they we shouldn't be skeptical about every single little piece of info we come across and just take it as it is like good little peon's lol.
For now anyways.
I would really like to see some overlay data.
I thought perhaps the smoke plum tracking data might have some use but then again, how can you track a plum of smoke when it has been dispersed, so I didn't even look at that data to be honest because of that.
Does anyone have any idea of what sort of data to look for in sat terms?
Photo-rad's?, etc, I'm sure there must be some public sat data that's specifically for tracking the type radiation of interest here...
oh man sunday sounds bad... inland wind and then after that itll rain? :S
might be of interest:
Video of a BWR Reactor which has the same design as the Fukushima plant including a look into the Pressure vehicle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU1QQR-xH0w
It was fully completed in 1978 but a public vote stopped it from becoming operational, now it's used for spare parts, training and the area around the reactor is used for a solar power plant.
How are they getting water in now still air dropping? I wonder why they don't make a wicked long eavestroughs or plumbing a direct way in. I just say that since that pic above was showing the core exposed. Is it just me or does it seem like we need to cut down on rods per unit in the future..
Japan makes many forms of industrial robots, people seem to only relate to what they see on TV, the ones that do cool things.Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Robots not really general purpose and versatile, they are usually built very job specific.
Well.. although this is a very "relaxed" video about the problem, i think that this guy does a really good job explaining the problems inside Fukushima power plant...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBvUtY0PfB8
Last I checked there were military firetrucks on site with water cannons that could be operated from within the cabin. Civilian firetrucks were first used but having the operators fully exposed to the radiation was deemed unsafe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glow9
I think the problem is that these systems are outright expensive on a per unit basis and there are economies of scale within some parts of the design(core?). I'm not intimately familiar with what parts cost more than others but you can see with a lot of powerstations(listing of powerstations around the globe, pretty neat stuff here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...power_stations) they originally started with smaller reactors and each reactor added was larger. Here are the reactor outputs at Fukushima.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glow9
1 × 460 MW (Unit 1 damaged)
4 × 784 MW (Units 2, 3, and 4 damaged; Unit 5 experiencing cooling problems)
1 × 1,100 MW (Unit 6 experiencing cooling problems)
Reactors planned 2 × 1,380 MW
Notice the planned reactors. 1.3GW each. That is gigantic in my book and I'm pretty certain there is a financial reason behind it unless they are after the epeen record :D
It would be nice to see modern Gen IV reactors put into place. In an ideal world I imagine it would be best to have more little reactors that can be scaled up and down with demand(molten salt reactors can easily do this :cool:). Sadly we don't live in an ideal world.
We need a robot up in there automated water cannons I'm tellin ya robots ftw! Just sayin we got automated guns to take out missiles dunno why we can't get a more radiation response ready. Seems like same mistakes over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler
p.s. anyone know why when typing firefox shoots you to another section of what your writing when your writing. I installed it and I have to say posting on here is a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:. Like some magic man is pointing his mouse randomly and then bam! I'm writing half way up the page in the wrong sentence again. I think it's a bug with their spell check...
People survive in Space for months also. Strangely they don't survive so well working around a reactor that's broken. ;) Wonder why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Swizz
It was a rhetorical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] riptide
http://www.japanquakemap.com/ - animated earthquake map, starts a bit slow but then later on you're like O.o o.O O.O
Ya. i saw one for New Zealand after their big quake. I had the same reaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD
Danger rating is up to 5/7 from 4.. :/
Michio Kaku cheerful as usual..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHM-Y1-3L0
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is they are desperately trying to get the power lines up to power the generators but looking at the buildings I find it hard to believe that all the pumps, pipes, electrical systems are intact. Sure they might get some makeshift pumps in but they could only pump water on and in the reactors and pools. For this to work wouldn't all the containments have to be entact? If not wouldn't it kinda be like trying to pump up a popped balloon; it doesn't work.
On the lighter side of news....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA
Short anime of what has happened in Japan.
what you see is the cover of the reactor ( who are open to air ), this can look impressive, don't forget they have got an Earthquake of 9.+ richter. ( now specialist have calculate it to 9.4 ).... but this have happend after the reactors cover explode due to the pressure of the Hydrogen ( water used for cool the fuel is transformed in Hydrogen, the pressure increase and .. well you understand what happend next ) ... the problem at start it's they was not able to cooldown the reactors enough and so the water have become Hydrogen ( loaded of different substance toxic and radioactivity ) ... the problem now is not the cover but the fuel bar who need be constantly cool for don't pass from Fiscion ( normal Thermo nuclear controlled operations ) to Fusion... ( uncontrolled operations, what have happend in Tschernobyl in less of some hours ) .. but if really they can't stabilise it, the only solution will be to cover down all the installation ( concrete and sand sarchophage ).. But it's not Russia.. it's an isle, and so all the life in isle in short, half and long term will be unusable... ) and the damage to the isle ( water, earth contamined and so all life in this region ) this will be so dramatic ( if it can be more ) they try now to don't go to this solution. cause you can cover it for don't get a massive cloud who will hit the peoples but you can't stop what will happend next ( the total contamination of the ground, water etc ) and this is actually impossible to revert..Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoclasiccl
I thought they said the containment vessells were cracked on some of the reactors?
on the 3 and 4, but don't forget, now the problem is no more the radioactivity released on air, but the real problem is to don't arrive to uncontrollable fusion of the fuel bar... ( the only way is to cool down the fuel bar )
As all the vessel are completelly down ( it's a bit more complicate with the reactors 4 as it's an open vessel ), the only way is to cool down the matters ( who enter in fusion in the contact with the air ),
and so don't go to a similar tcherchnobyl explosion....Whatever is the vessel is open, you need put enough water ( who evaporate in hydrogen ) for keep the bar submerged and cool..... the water can seems a " low" solution, but actually all is in the temperatures of the bar who have been push outisde the reactors ( after the earthquake, it's a securitiy system, the reactor release the bar and in the vessel who are then continuously refresh, immerged in the water, but this exactly where the problem have occur, as the all the safety system have been destroyed and bring unusable after the tsunami who have follow.... the temperature have increase and the level of Hydrogen pressure have make explode the covers of the reactors ......... )
Fission, not fusion. Not even the sun can fuse uranium. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanek
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...hi.itn?hpt=Mid
So much for the tsunami protection walls...
Which is still under-rating the event... 3mile was 5/7 and now we have 3 reactors and 4 reactor pools in trouble, all of which are bigger than the 3mile reactor too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesrt2004
Dctokyo, the fukushima reactor webcam shows a huge cloud of steam?
Which reactor is it monitoring?
Is it dai ichi or ni?
BTW, cnns cover of this event has been terrible.
Today they showed a map where they even labeled the reactors wrong.
1 3 2 4 lol Wtf? ^^
Sounds easy, but a simple wall can't overcome the pressure of a tsunami.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
Take the Japan tsunami as an example, the wall has to sustain more than 65000 newtons per square meter of pressure, calculated from an assumed 6m height of the tsunami.
Not only that, even you "stop" the first wave of water theres so much water mass still coming that way. The water would just keep pouring in until the water runs over the wall or brakes it. At least in these powerful scenarios.
Sorry it seems it was not of the reactor, I removed the linkQuote:
Originally Posted by saaya
I found some realtime radiation level map data, some official like stuff here:
https://cdxnode64.epa.gov/radnet-public/showMap.do
Unfortunately it's only for the us.
But it's at least a start, a good chunk of src's in the us isn't to bad...
I noticed in one of the cnn video's they were monitoring the smoke plume I think, but they didn't mention it...
I'm thinking of going to look for that data again...
Can someone interpret the levels seen in some of the California data?
I'm to lazy lol, I found the data, I'm just to lazy to figuer out how to read it.
Edit:
Oh it had hawaii too.
Can someone interpret this... ?
Quote:
Fixed Monitor Location: HI: HONOLULU
Measurement Start Date/Time: 03/19/2011 12:12:12 AM
Measurement End Date/Time: 03/19/2011 01:12:20 AM
Beta Gross Count Rate (CPM): 0
Gamma Energy Range 2 Gross(CPM): 1053
Gamma Energy Range 3 Gross(CPM): 619
Gamma Energy Range 4 Gross(CPM): 194
Gamma Energy Range 5 Gross(CPM): 99
Gamma Energy Range 6 Gross(CPM): 64
Gamma Energy Range 7 Gross(CPM): 71
Gamma Energy Range 8 Gross(CPM): 54
Gamma Energy Range 9 Gross(CPM): 34
Gamma Energy Range 10 Gross(CPM): 78
Fixed Monitor Location: CA: SAN FRANCISCO
Measurement Start Date/Time: 03/18/2011 11:48:32 PM
Measurement End Date/Time: 03/19/2011 12:48:39 AM
Beta Gross Count Rate (CPM): 16
Gamma Energy Range 2 Gross(CPM): 1958
Gamma Energy Range 3 Gross(CPM): 1249
Gamma Energy Range 4 Gross(CPM): 368
Gamma Energy Range 5 Gross(CPM): 196
Gamma Energy Range 6 Gross(CPM): 130
Gamma Energy Range 7 Gross(CPM): 152
Gamma Energy Range 8 Gross(CPM): 98
Gamma Energy Range 9 Gross(CPM): 29
Gamma Energy Range 10 Gross(CPM): 37
nothing to discut about this value, thoses have absolutely no interest untill you want sell some pills ...
in another extend thoses values have absolutely nothing to do with Japan actual problems. they are normal value for the region .. nothing more or less ..
What peoples living in Tokyo want is the real value in their town now .... the International Atomic Energy Ageny is now in Tokyo recording the value....
If you want to follow them, actually there's a tokyo guys who are taken the mesure completely indepandtly and post them in twitter and fb.
So what radiation levels are they seeing in Tokyo?
No news at all today, so much for transparency Mr kan...
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/%E6%9D...83%99%E3%83%AB
Representation of the amount of radiation per hour.
Usually Tokyo is 0.02-0.08 µ SV/H
Radioactivity in Tokyo and even Kashiwa (northern Chiba) have returned to background levels (currently around 0.05 microSv/hr). You can get radioactivity level info from various independent sites, such as the ut-portal at the University of Tokyo (u-tokyo.ac.jp) website
Latest update
Tokyo Fire Department to start spraying water
The Tokyo Fire Department plans to use a temporarily unmanned fire engine to spray water into the No. 3 reactor's storage pool at the quake-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.
The operation is expected to last for 7 hours.
The fire engine has a foldable arm that can spray water from a height of 22 meters.
A vehicle equipped with a large pump is parked at a dock 300 meters from the fire engine to suck water from the ocean.
The sea water will be supplied to the fire engine by hose.
Firefighters laid the hose on the ground by hand on Friday night.
Firefighters will calculate distance and direction, and then leave the fire engine before starting to spray water into the storage pool.
The unmanned operation permits water to be sprayed for a long period of time without exposing firefighters to radiation.
The Tokyo Fire Department plans to spray water for 7 hours on Saturday, while refueling the vehicles.
Saturday, March 19, 2011 15:07 +0900 (JST)
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/.../19_16_v_s.jpg
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/.../19_19_v_s.jpg
yeah, 7 hours, in which they plan to spray 1200 tons of water onto reactor3s storage pool, which should almost fill it
radiation is still around 350 micro sieverts at the plant, its not really going down so far :/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
From that link:Quote:
Originally Posted by RADCOM
Midori Horikawa in Tokyo, writes: "Ungrounded panic and paranoia about the situation in Fukushima are making Tokyo a less than liveable place at the moment. I fear that the alarmist media and reactions of foreign governments are mostly to blame for this mass paranoia. Much of the non-Japanese media's reporting is based on pure speculations, prompting foreigners to leave Tokyo... With foreigners leaving the country, however, even the Japanese are growing distrustful of 'the government stories'. I feel that the whole nuclear scare is just a side show to the very real damage brought by the earthquake and tsunami.
Hear hear...
and once more, had the japanese government disclosed more information and kept everybody up to date about everything that was going on, had constantly provided updates about the radiation levels and situation at the plants, international media would have cited it and taken it seriously instead of speculating. and people would trust its assessments and not over-react...Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthShader
they didnt tell people enough, they lost trust so then the people over-compensated by expecting things to be even worse than they really were, which led the japanese gov to think they should disclose even less infos to not scare the public, which caused them to lose even more trust etc etc...
btw, so are us and russian experts at the site now?
did the us set up their own measuring equipment?
if not, i have a feeling we may never know what REALLY happened... things might have been much worse at one or another point in time than the gov claimed, but now that they seem to have everything under control, its easy to cover up any details about mistakes they might have made...
this is all highly political and all people involved want to move on asap and probably pretend it never happened or everything was fine all along and the media just blew it out of proportion...
we still dont fully KNOW today, at least the public doesnt, what exactly happened at chernobyl... i hope for fukushima things will be different... but its probably not in the interest of any of the high powers involved here so im sceptical that there will ever be an accurate report of the events.
You think chernobly lacks enlightenment... how about the Kyshtym disaster... 30 years noone even knew it happend...
never heard of it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
so yeah... the gov and atomic lobby complain about hype and over-reactions... but with all the dead bodies in their backyard and only admitting what everybody already knows, how can they complain about a lack of trust?
i honestly believe that if the gov and atomic industry would disclose all infos properly, and stop trying to keep ancient reactors up and running, most people would support atomic energy as a necessary evil, because the alternatives are burning more fossil fuels, more dependency on autocratic fascist human rights violating regimes in the middle east, more pollution and higher energy costs...
but the way things are run right now...
i honestly feel a strong urge to GTHO from nuclear energy as well, no matter the cost...
its like a cheating girlfriend, in the end your better off without her :D
same with the atomic industry :D
saaya... you are conscious that petroleum prices are going sky high if Nuclear energy is left aside ... not to talk about that all the ambient agreements about co2 emissions will be blown away ...
So... it's not that easy... i defend nuclear power BUT... big BUT with gen3 plants andddd with a great effort to bring out gen4 ...
TEPCO have succeeded in connecting a new external power cable to units 1 and 2. They will undergo inspection today (20th) to check the pump and valves in order to ensure they function.
I heard they drilled holes in reactors 5 and 6 this morning to vent steam. I guess the generators weren't keeping up with the cooling needs.
True heroes: The Fukushima 50
Some news stuffs:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday
http://www.cnn.com/video/
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv
The original site needs some sort of plugin and doesn't work for me..., I don't know the delay on this feed...
The food and water shortages look like they are a prob...
Some readings from tokyo:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/%E3%82...83%B3%E3%82%BF
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/東京都世田谷放射線レベル
Thanks dctokyo for that last link.
I don't know of both feeds line up time wise or if they are accurate or what so...
I wish both meter types were on the same feed.
Ohwell, the more info the better.
And some generic us stuff, the epa:
https://cdxnode64.epa.gov/radnet-public/showMap.do
The "Deployable Monitor ID: RN08" is the one of most interest to me.
Located in guam for the last reading at least.
I have not been paying attention for it for a long time, this is just the 2nd reading in my log.
So it don't mean anything maybe..., could be natural I dn.
I'll look for more data later on.Quote:
Deployable Monitor ID: RN08
Measurement Date/Time: 03/19/2011 07:07:46 AM
Average Gamma Exposure Rate(mR/hr): 0.008725
Deployable Monitor ID: RN08
Measurement Date/Time: 03/19/2011 06:07:46 PM
Average Gamma Exposure Rate(mR/hr): 0.009525
If you guys got more live feeds of radiation data, why not post it?
With enough of them you could estimate more accurately...
I have not checked out the german news yet.
The usa news I haven't seen much of it, just cnn so far.
As for power plant stuffs..
I think since we can grow fuels we should be doing that.
Figuring out which has the least environmental impact and which has the best octane and balancing it, wood pellets/gases, coal/gases or algae gases.
Oil and gas are fine as long as there isn't mass spills, or even sinking ships... and people deliberately putting mass amount of gas and oil into the ocean and lighting it on fire lol... :shakes:
Methane gas.
Solar turbine dish's.
Hybrid car's should of been out years ago in much bigger #'s.
And I personally think they should be using a small gas powered generator to the side of the engine to power the engine or to charge the batteries...
Finding a few gal's of gas isn't so hard, charging your batteries for a few hr's at an outlet would suck on the road.
I honestly think we should be doing mass hydroponics too...
But whatever lol :P.
Latest Update
Tokyo Electric Power Company says radiation levels around the compound at its Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant are on the decline since water-spraying began in earnest on Saturday afternoon.
The company told reporters that the radiation level at the plant's headquarters building, located some 500 meters northeast of the No. 3 reactor, dropped to 2,625 microsieverts per hour at 8:30 on Sunday morning.
The reading shows a drop of more than 800 microsieverts from 18 hours ago--about the time the water-spraying at the No.3 reactor began.
Sunday, March 20, 2011 11:49 +0900 (JST)
Sounds to me like the radiation is still going up.
FUKUSHIMA, Japan – Technicians prepared to vent radioactive gas into the air Sunday because of a new spike in pressure at Japan's crippled, leaking nuclear complex............
...............The venting is an "unavoidable measure to protect the containment vessel," Nishiyama said. He warned that a larger amount of radiation would have to be released than when similar venting was done a week ago because more nuclear fuel have have degraded since then.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110320/...pan_earthquake
Thanks for the update!Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
My question to you (or anyone currently in Japan) is, how is the credibility of TEPCo or Japanese Government these days?
They should get a bunch of fabric/cloth/whatever and cover the exposed reactor where they vent the coolant a bit, it would help to keep the escaping steam from carrying radiation away.
Its known as a "Volenti Cooler" btw, basically acts just like a "bong" cooler.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=225219
Pressure rises again in No. 3 reactor:(
Technicians prepared to vent radioactive gas into the air Sunday because of a new spike in pressure at Japan’s crippled, leaking nuclear complex, while a safety official said protective iodine pills should have been distributed near the plant days earlier.
Radiation, a danger for days in areas around the plant, already has seeped into the food supply, with the government warning that tests of spinach and milk from areas as far as 120 kilometers away exceeded safety limits. Tap water farther away turned up tiny amounts of radioactive iodine in Tokyo and other areas.
Amid concerns of wider contamination, a nuclear safety official said the government was caught off-guard by the accident’s severity and only belatedly realized the need to give potassium iodide to those living within 20 kilometers of the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex.
Quote:
Radioactivity tests have found that milk from Fukushima and spinach from Ibaraki contain levels of iodine-131 that exceed safety standards:
In raw milk samples collected from a farm in the town of Kawamata in Fukushima prefecture, up to 1,510 becquerel per kilogram of iodine-131 were detected, about five times the limit of 300 becquerel per kilogram set by law.
“This will be a huge blow to dairy farms all over Fukushima,” said Yukimitsu Sato, a spokesman for the prefecture’s dairy farm cooperative, which represents about 60% of local dairy farms, including the one in Kawamata.
The prefecture had not shipped milk for consumption since the earthquake, and the health ministry’s announcement came just as the cooperative was preparing to begin shipping again.
“We were just starting to see a ray of hope,” said Mr. Sato, adding that the cooperative was not told about the radioactivity tests.
According to the cooperative, Fukushima prefecture’s 516 dairy farms usually ship 254 tons of milk every day, with annual sales of about ¥10 billion (about $125 million). About 1.3% of dairy cows in Japan were in Fukushima as of 2008, according to the prefecture.
The health ministry also detected higher-than-normal levels of iodine-131 from spinach samples collected Saturday from farms in six locations in Ibaraki prefecture, south of Fukushima.
One spinach sample collected from the city of Hitachinaka, located about 120 kilometers south of the plant, contained 8,420 becquerel per kilogram of iodine-131, according to the health ministry. The normal amount set by Japanese law is 2,000 becquerel per kilogram.
Another spinach sample from Takahagi, a city closer to Fukushima, recorded 15,020 becquerel per kilogram, more than seven times the normal amount. From that sample, radioactive caesium 134 and caesium 137 were also detected in slightly larger amounts than the limits set by law.
The Ibaraki prefectural government has asked farmers to suspend shipments of spinach, according to the Ibaraki branch of the National Federation of Agricultural Cooperative Associations.
An official in Ibaraki prefecture said that he couldn’t deny the possibility that some spinach from the prefecture has already reached consumers. The prefecture produces about 14,000 tons of spinach a year, about 5% of overall production in Japan.
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said at a press conference Saturday that it was prepared to offer compensation to farmers.
It is also being reported that tap water in the Kanto region has been found to contain trace amounts of iodine-131, but the levels do not exceed safety standards:
Radiation was detected in water in Tokyo and the prefectures of Tochigi, Gunma, Saitama, Chiba and Niigata, Japan’s Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology said today in a faxed statement.
Tochigi Prefecture’s reading of radioactive iodine-131 was 77 Becquerel per kilogram, the highest among the prefectures, while the level of iodine found in Tokyo’s Shinjuku district was 1.5. All the numbers were within the 300 Bq/kg limit, the ministry said.
This is not an unexpected development, nor is it a sign of a new radiation leak. The explosions at the Fukushima plant earlier in the week caused higher-than-normal radiation readings throughout Tokyo (which have since dropped considerably). At such levels, direct exposure would not harm human health, but it could build up to unhealthy levels in crops and livestock that feeds on local vegetation.
To summarize:
Iodine-131 in Vegetables
* Japanese legal limit on radiation in spinach (and other vegetables): 2,000 per kilogram
* Amount of radiation detected in spinach from Takahagi, Ibaraki prefecture: 15,020 becquerel per kilogram (plus caesium 134 and caesium 137)
* Amount of radiation detected in spinach from Hitachinaka, Ibaraki prefecture: 8,420 becquerel per kilogram.
Iodine-131 in Milk & Water
* Japan’s legal safety limit on radiation in water / milk: 300 becquerel per kilogram
* Amount of radiation detected in milk from Kawamata, Fukushima prefecture: 1,510 becquerel per kilogram
* Amount of radiation detected in Tochigi tap water: 77 becquerel per kilogram
* Amount of radiation detected in Tokyo tap water (Shinjuku): 1.5 becquerel per kilogram
Experts have said that the greatest health impact from Chernobyl came from the consumption of contaminated food. In that case, authorities did not properly warn people about radiation in crops, milk, meat, and water. In this case, Japanese authorities appear to be restricting the sale of contaminated food.
Even if future tests find that radiation levels have dropped, this will still probably kill the agriculture business in Ibaraki and Fukushima. One can expect that consumers will be checking the packages of vegetables at supermarkets, and avoiding anything from that region.
Although this only seems to be effecting a small region of Japan, the New York Times is speculating that this will probably make people stop buying Kobe beef and Japanese sushi.
0% imhoQuote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc
yepp... i think thats a common opinion in japan...Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
just look around in tokyo, its really quiet, everybody tries to stay indoors as much as they can, many shops have been cleared by panic shoppers hording food at home... and you know what... they were RIGHT...
first they said food contamination was not gonna happen
then they said food contamination was tiny
then they said they would ban food from fukushima anyways just to be sure
now it turns out they did so because it DID exceed safety limits notably
poor government :(Quote:
the government was caught off-guard by the accident’s severity
here, have a cookie...
dont feel bad... its just a few dozen million people that depend on you... and its not like you are supposedly the elite of society, destined to lead and protect them...
which is going to happen sooner or later anyways...Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmodum
and the only way to change things is... money...
lets say gasoline prices quadruple... so what?
no more phat 4ss plasma tv running all day even when nobody is watching
no more turning on lights in every room regardless of whether somebody is actually inside
no more using 5000W clothes dryers
no more cruising around in pick up trucks and suvs just for fun or to pick up a pack of milk from 3miles away
no more driving to work in your own car, we will take company shuttle buses instead or use public transport
yes, it will affect all our lives, but we all know its for the better...
and honestly, this isnt all that bad...
anybody whining about this would get btchsl4pped by their grandparents that lived through ww2 and the great depression if they were present...and rightfully so...
You make it sound like money is not important at all.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
No more crunching because energy costs are sky high. :rolleyes:
Sharp increase in consumer product because utility costs are higher. :rolleyes:
Incoming increase in poverty if fuel prices increases, IMO.
I'm all for nuclear energy, if it is safe enough.
It's only as safe as the people handling it allow it to be. One error is enough to cause a catastrophic failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
Well the thing is, it is NOT safe enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindbox
I'm all for fossil fuel, if it is clean enough...:rolleyes:
Didn't they say they increased levels to 150 a day or to ago now its 2000+Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
:confused:
It will get safer, especially reactors made post-accident. Big mistakes rarely get repeated twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by lkiller123
At least, that's how it is on the chemical industry in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Ch...tigation_Board <-- and all their data is available for the public, which is awesome.
Is YOUR government prepared for freak 15m waves? Armageddon? No? Why not? Because nobody saw this coming. Backup systems failed. Instead of sitting at home pointing out how you could've done it better, think about the people who have to make these decisions while their own houses may have been swept away - maybe even their families are missing. Would YOU be able to work under that pressure?Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
I've been surprised at the number of people that don't give a rats ass about japan right now, saying that it's their fault and their government is stupid.
Sorry, but if this happened to the US, we aren't prepared for something catastrophic like that either. You can never predict what nature is going to throw at you, and when it does, 9/10 times, it will throw you into a wall.
I feel very sorry for the Japanese people right now, but more importantly, I feel sorry for that think the Japanese government is to blame. :mad:
I have a feeling if this had happened to a country other than Japan the situation would be a million times worse than it is now. At the end of the day it's impossible to be 100% safe and protected from natural disasters like this no matter how many precautions and "plans" you draw up, it's not like the government has a magic wand that makes the country earthquake and tidal wave proof.
I forgot to add to my last post, another alt power src, vawts.
Vertical access wind turbines...
I fell sorry for the people that live in the prefecture area of the plant...
I don't blame anyone or the the gov.
I kinda worry about the decisions though.
I think the vegetation around the plant is screwed, the live stock if they have any there is screwed... :(
They should be 100 miles away at least, 150km, not 30km...
It would suck to be stuck in the 30k radius.
But I wonder about the us military..
What are they actually doing? :shrug:
I figured they'de be evacuating the people around the plant area's...
If not then what was the point in sending over experts ?
You can't tell me it was an american's idea to spray water and turn on the pumps lol :rolleyes:...
One other thing, you might might notice the nhk global news seems to be on the defensive sometimes.
It doesn't mean the gov is hiding anything.
They would be defensive in this situation anyways.
If that even sounds right...
This whole thing is pretty bad.
I think sea barriers could work but they need proven design help from modeling.
I think the key could be to direct the water up and away from the barrier maybe... whatever.
The majority of the energy in the wave may be reverb and echo... maybe there's a way of dispersing it or using it...
I don't know.
But I wouldn't go as far as saying it's not doable economically in the future.
2000µSv/h = 2mSv/h, so its 75 times less then before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glow9
Let's keep discussion about policy (i.e., what people in charge "should" do) out of it. Also, not the place for opinions and direction of future/current Nuclear Power implementation. XS News Section is just not the place for that kind of discussion.
Thread is getting close to being closed....
I found the following interview rather interesting:
http://rt.com/news/seismic-activity-earthquake-japan/
This might be of some interest too:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/03...ia-May-Be-Next
That's a lot of words you put in my mouth there, Thx but I already had breakfast :PQuote:
Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101
I think you misunderstood me...
Never said any gov or myself could have handled it better...
I'm not upset about them failing, I'm upset over apologizing for it instead of reviewing what went wrong and how to do it better next time, and more importantly, how to do a better job right now... they apologize and continue doing the same thing...
How does that help any of the victims? Oh well my entire town has been washed away and all my friends and family are dead, but the government is sorry... so I'm alright, I don't feel bad and am confident about the future...
Good news, reactor3 pressure is supposedly stabilizing and they won't release gases for now
They probably don't want to because this is the reactor that contains plutonium if I remember correctly. So opening the valves would release at least some plutonium, which is extremely poisonous
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20_23.html
Reactor three does have Putonium and since it's supposed to be Plutonium-239 it's definately scary as it has a half-life of 24,200 years. :shocked:
At a press conference with the Ministry of Defense, it was revealed that continued readings taken by helicopter above units 1-6 showed surface temperatures to be below 100 degrees. This is important data that reinforces the possibility that water is landing in the spent fuel pools and cooling the reactors. Unit 1 = 58C, unit 2= 35C, unit 3 = 62C, unit 4 = 42C, unit 5 = 24C and unit 6 =25C. 100 degrees C is the boiling point of water, so temperatures above this are dangerous because it means the water will evaporate and increase the risk of dry fuel rods – a dire situation that would release a lot of radiation.
Also
Japan's health ministry is urging the people of a village in Fukushima Prefecture not to drink the tap water, in which higher levels of radioactive materials were detected on Sunday. The Ministry says, however, that drinking it does not pose any immediate health risk.
Tap water tested at Iitate Village in Fukushima Prefecture showed more than triple the level of radiation allowed by the government.
The health ministry says 965 becquerels of iodine-131 were detected in the water, which is 3.2 times the standard. The legal standard is 300 becquerels per kilogram.
It says residents can use the water for washing and bathing, and that drinking it has no immediate effect on human health.
But as a precaution, the ministry has urged about 3700 residents of the village to avoid drinking the tap water.
On the matter of higher levels of radiation than the legal standard detected in vegetables produced in Gunma, Tochigi, and Chiba prefectures, the health ministry said these are not of levels that could affect one's health immediately.
Monday, March 21, 2011 09:55 +0900 (JST)
TEPCO cam at Fukushima
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/f1-np/camera/index-j.html
this is another thing the japanese government keeps doing wrong...
how are you ever going to get people to trust you if you keep saying: its safe, but dont drink it! its safe but dont eat it! its safe, but dont go outside! its safe, but please move to another city...
they keep contradicting themselves...
did they grey out the center or is there something weird stuck to the lense? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
It looks OK now ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
If reactor #3 is stabilizing they must be doing SOMETHING right. How do you know that nobody is reviewing this? Bad news sells, you aren't likely to see a headline JAPANESE NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS DISCOVER WAY TO AVOID FURTHER DISASTERS;)Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Right now, after an unforeseen disaster, what CAN be done other than apologizing for people's losses? Nothing that can be said or done will bring back loved ones or memories built up at home - home is a collection of memories, not a building. I visited a house from my childhood with some of my fondest memories and didn't like it much; that's when I realized I miss the memories, not the brick and mortar.
I appreciate your posts, you bring a lot to the table in general but in this thread it feels like you're a nay-sayer :(
Please don't, this thread is saving me from visiting a hundred news sites every day :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapor
+1:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101
URGENT: Workers evacuate from tsunami-stricken nuclear complex after No. 3 reactor emits gray smoke
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03...uclear-crisis/
:shocked:
I dont see nothing:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoclasiccl
In short; Some smoke visible around the spent fuel rod storage. And no rise in radiation levels.
Fox...
Because it is night now ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FlanK3r
Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoclasiccl
Don't use fox. It's crap.
No extra radiation... And workers left as a precautionary measure..
Fox news is not a good source of information IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by Neoclasiccl
(Japan Broadcasting Corporation)
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html
Quote:
The grey smoke seen coming from the troubled No.3 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant on Monday afternoon has subsided.
The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, evacuated its workers from the plant shortly after 4 PM.
The government's nuclear safety agency said the smoke, which turned black and grey, subsided about 2 hours later.
It also said water levels and pressure inside the reactor have registered no major changes.
The smoke was apparently coming from the south edge of the reactor structure.
The storage pool for spent nuclear fuel is located in the southeast part of the structure.
Radiation levels at a spot about 500 meters northwest of the reactor were 2,015 microsieverts per hour, almost unchanged from the figure measured before the smoke was seen.
Work was under way to restore external power to the No.4 reactor and regain its cooling functions. The nuclear safety agency said the work is unlikely to have caused a fire.
Monday, March 21, 2011 19:35 +0900 (JST)
Quote:
5 radioactive materials detected
Tokyo Electric Power Company says some of the nuclear fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has apparently been damaged, as higher levels of radioactive materials have been detected in the vicinity.
The utility on Monday released the results of a radiation survey carried out at the plant on Saturday.
Officials detected in the air 5 radioactive materials that are generated by nuclear fission.
The level of iodine 131 was 5.9 milibecquerels per cubic centimeter. That's about 6 times the permissible level for workers without protective masks.
The density of the other substances was also higher than usual, but within safety standards.
The utility says the radiation is likely to have come from the damaged reactors, and added that it will check radiation levels daily.
The company also says it has no plan to halt efforts to restore power and pour water into reactors, as these activities pose no risk to workers as long as they wear protective masks.
Monday, March 21, 2011 19:35 +0900 (JST)
Quote:
Govt posts radiation data
Japan's science ministry is publishing radiation levels monitored nationwide on its website, with the information also available in English, Korean and Chinese.
The ministry's website began showing the data on Saturday, with information updated twice a day.
The ministry is publishing levels of radiation and radioactive materials monitored on the ground, as well as in rain, tap water and the atmosphere.
The website also shows the science ministry's independent measurements of radiation near the disaster-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.
As of 7 PM Sunday, radiation readings were slightly higher than normal in Mito City, Ibaraki Prefecture, and Utsunomiya City, Tochigi Prefecture. But the ministry says the levels do not pose an immediate health hazard.
In Tokyo and six surrounding prefectures, trace amounts of radioactive iodine and cesium have been detected. Neither substance occurs naturally.
The information is available at: www.mext.go.jp
Monday, March 21, 2011 09:44 +0900 (JST)
:D thx, heh, im stupid :-)...Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
At the moment I'm mostly relying on your sources dctokyo :) (and thanks again for keeping us "posted" :) )Quote:
Originally Posted by dctokyo
Occasionally I check the BBC and Al-Jazeera (for a slightly different angle), but that's about it.
Although the crisis on the nuclear plant is serious is the scale of the human tragedy what's most harrowing...
Not only the death toll but also the hundreds of thousands displaced and those still within the exclusion zone , may it be be by choice (like some officials who stayed behind out of duty, integrity and conviction) or because they couldn't make it out.