Thanks kaktus for sharing :up:
Thanks kaktus for sharing :up:
What's "EPG"?Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktus1907
@the amd slides benchmark slides.
obviously they did not want to show themselves loosing in any benchmark. FC2 was in one but not the other, probably because its still slower in that game. then again, there were not very many games where nvidia has such an optimization as that game. if you dont see it on the chart, its probably too old, or it didnt win.
well all in all good.
but 6970 aka cayman needs to be much better as I expect it to go almost toe to toe on 5970
I'd say 6950 will be maybe 10% faster than 5870 and 6970 maybe 30-40% faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantsu
I think you are expecting a bit too much.
I keep my bets lower than that.
Hd5870 < Hd6950 - 5 - 10%
< Hd6970 - 25 - 30%
Until we see real numbers it's pretty much priceless. :D
Its tough to expect much more out of the same process, but keep in mind that AMD used a 30% smaller core and got similar performance... and Cayman is larger than Cypress by a good amount, so I bet its performance is a lot higher than people thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by andres1
Nice. Looks like the same size as HD4850.Quote:
Originally Posted by FischOderAal
Which is actually about where the last generation stood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantsu
5850 = 10%+ faster than HD4890
5870 = 30-40%+ faster than HD4890
Of course this varied from game to game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macadamia
so much less transistors ... i hope rumors are true ... super low die size .. super low pricing maybe??? :D
25% less silicon and same performance = huge proffit margin making gpu ... nvidia doesnt have anything to counter that .... they need a shrink asapQuote:
Originally Posted by RaV[666]
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerazax
exactly ... ;) i expect big things from antiles and cayman
Leaked results from someone on my forums with HD6870 for 3D06 and Vantage it looking very interesting and i think it real not fake for sure, let to see what about 6870 performance :D
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/8135/0img5366.jpg
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/6176/3img5392.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2289/g6000.gif
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6666/capture3pl.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3834/zumsi.jpg
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7785/capture2pl.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9096/0capture4.jpg
Source : Click
is the 128bit a bug with gpuz database, or is it reading it wrong, or is that the actual bitrate?
why afterburner shows max clock speed 775mhz in that graph? is it 6850 or 6870 ?
More performance with less hardware is very interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn0wm@n
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoZ
yep ... + this will allow them more chips per waffer so pricing should still be interesting
they had the same advantage with evergreen and didnt go for perf/$. maybe they will this time, one can only hope.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn0wm@n
How could they when market decided cards were more value than recommended price from AMD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumbucket843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumbucket843
35% less transistors would surely help that dont you think?
and also they had a buggy tsmc node to work with ... and maybe they worked out the kinc now ....
But then again, bart xt is more or less 25% faster clocked than a 5850, which makes up for most of the difference. I doubt the 6970 will have significantly faster clocks because of its size(900mhz max) vs cypress(850). Basically everything has to come from core improvements and added components.Quote:
Originally Posted by zerazax
Clocks appear to match polygon counts on both cards(5850 and 6870).
If anyone wants to compare to stock HD5870 here is my run at the same CPU clocks (bar 2 extra cores which only influence CPU score):
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dmv=2622805
GPU-Z's 128-bit reading is cause GPU-Z is a database. I'm sure once its updated, it will read it right
You're right that clocks make up a big part of it, but it depends on what other things they put into Cayman. If, as rumored, Cayman has more architectural changes, then we may see even more improvement. Cypress after all was pretty inefficient compared to Juniper (we see that Juniper x 2 often beat Cypress handily, despite having effectively the same numbers)Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
They did. That Fermi was 6 months late and a dissapointment was hardly ATI's fault (TSMC's early 40nm woes didn't help supply either). Simple supply vs. demand at work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumbucket843
Plus, ATI had no target price point since nothing was there to compete. Since ATI has a target card it wants to attack (the GTX 460), they have a target price point now
agreed, the clockspeed difference makes up alot of the perf difference.Quote:
But then again, bart xt is more or less 25% faster clocked than a 5850, which makes up for most of the difference. I doubt the 6970 will have significantly faster clocks because of its size(900mhz max). Basically everything has to come from core improvements and added components.
as a whole package its pretty good, but what about when both are overclocked (max typical on stock cooling), that could really close in the gap between them.
i think whats best is the potential this has for mobile chips and fusion products.
when mm2 matter on fusion, this can let them pack in more with good yields.
and for mobile stuff they seem to have a better perf per watt
What concerns me, the 6850 heatsink has 0 heatpipes, while the 6870 heatsink has 3?
From HardwareLuxx:
6850
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...12-950x633.jpg
6870
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...12-950x633.jpg
doesn't deserve the name 6870.. more like 5890.
That is one wimpy cooler on the 6850...
6850 with a vapor base... wonder how well it will cool?
lol yepQuote:
Originally Posted by Loque
i stopped caring tho, as long as it's cheap I'm happy
the 6850 is under 150W, and it looks to be built as cheap as possible to reduce the price as much as possible.
i wouldnt expect a sub 200$ card to have a full copper heatsink and weigh 4lbs.
but the 6870 seems to be what they want people to do all their overclocking on.
That would imply it's meant to replace the 5870 :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loque
People need to look at the pricing/chart. There was no card to fill the gap between 5770 and 5850. So they split Cypress performance into two new GPUs... Cayman for the > $250 range, and Barts for $150-250. Juniper is now < $150 and will not be renamed
Sounds like a good market plan, and 6800 was kind of necessary as a name since a 6700 would kill the 5700 sales, unless they wanted to rebrand the 5700
Zero fan speed @idle?!.. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoLKoRn
its 23%Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMike
how do you know that? how many more people would have bought a 5870 if it were priced lower? i think there would be much more demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanical Man
surely less transistors and a smaller die will help yields with some assumptions but it doesnt guarantee anything for the product. there is a lot we dont know. because they are dominating in performance and manufacturability, they can have high margins and market share growth at the same time. basically, they can do as they please with these cards. this is more of an economics problem than a technical one so it's not my area to speculate in but i dont think the cards will be value oriented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn0wm@n
Lowering the power consumption is always a good thing. Even if cards are not that much more powerful in terms of raw performace. There is always the next generation of cards..Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumbucket843
How do you figure?Quote:
Originally Posted by zerazax
5870 didn't replace 5850. Why would 5890 replace 5870? It really is a more fitting name as the performance increase is likely to be similar to 4870--->4890 than 4870---->5870.
It doesn't beat the 5870...why would they name it the 5890? Plus its a totally new architecture...why would you call it 5k series?
if i had to place the 6870 somewhere in the 5k lineup, i would have called it the 5860, and the 6850 as 5840
http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/...495322-650.jpg
improved AF will be nice
They aren't the same series of cards, they can't have the same generational header. Face it, the chip is too big and has too big a bus for it to fit into the X770 hole any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
read the first 4 words i said, "IF I HAD TO"Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconyu
Oh thank God.Quote:
Originally Posted by zerazax
So basically the af bug was a hardware problem unlike most people believed and thought it was driver cheats.
thats kinda crazy though?
LOL :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird
maybe cause HD4870 > 5870 was top to top cards .... and in the 6K series 5870 > 6970 is the top to top cards ... excluding of course the dual gpu's from both series .Quote:
Originally Posted by FlawleZ
I would've called the:Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
hd6850-hd6820
hd6870-hd6830
hd6950-hd6850
hd6970-hd6870
Then kept the 69xx for x2 gpus only...easer to understand...dont you think?
But they have bested the 5870. This is the MID RANGE!Quote:
Originally Posted by AAbenson
Why does everyone take their eye off the prize?
It's Cayman. Super Cayman ftw. 5970 single chip performance and all for the price of a second hand car.
The 6870 is replacing the 5770, when you think about that reality, it's a performance king.
Now think about where the 6970 will fit in terms of performance?
It's a case of being 35% more efficient for barts per watt. If the same is true for Cayman and if Cayman (as rumoured) ups the power use far more than the 5870 used.
We're talking a massive increase of speed.
double post
Is this thing 4d shaders or 5d shaders? It seems like most sources like beyond3d and albeit not a good source(fudzilla) are saying this is a 5d shader.
Most things are pointing to 5D shaders, so this begs the question, how much of an architectural change was there? I am thinking almost none with some of these performance numbers.
Tessellation performance is tied to polygon throughput and it seems it is entirely tied to clocks, so this is where tesselalation performance is coming from, so no real miracles here really.
e.g polygon count of the 5850 is 725 million, 5870 is 850 million and the 6870 is 900 million.
Also when i look at it, a 1120 shader clock at 900mhz might(based entirely on cypress technology) might give exactly the performance we are seeing in these leaks.
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi...e_hd5850/6.htm
When you look at this review where a 5850 was clocked at 5870 speeds more or less, it performs more or less the same, wins some and loses some. This makes me suspect that increasing shader numbers to increase performance has hits its bottle neck at 1440 already and perhaps even earlier than this. Maybe 1120 was the sweetspot to increase this.
Look at this review which more mirrors a card with barts xt specs would perform based entirely on cypress technology.
http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/xfx_5830/7.htm
This has a 5830(which shares the specs of the 6870 except that it has half the ROPs) at the likely clocks of barts xt(900/1200). Compared to the 5850, the 5830 most of the time is about 10% slower, but occasionally it is faster in a couple games. I think if you gave the 5830 twice the ROPs(which is a huge bottleneck for the 5830) and put it at clocks of 900/1200, you would get exactly the performance we are getting with the 6870.
If we looked at the bottlenecks of the cypress, slimmed it down to levels before the plateu was reached, I think you would get barts xt.
I don't think we are getting any change in technology beside something related to drivers(a couple changes maybe to use polygon throughput better maybe), I think people are getting a little too excited about this card without actually analyzing the performance and looking at the actual specs and comparing and contrasting with the cypress generation.
Seems to be a 5 VLIW design. 16x5x14 = 1120 shaders total. Might be mistaken though, and I dont know if there are shaders disabled but it is very unlikely. Id say 6870 should be within 10% of a 5870.
6850 should have some shaders disabled and perform slightly slower than the 460 1GB IMO. Not bad
Improved Tesselation, AA, AF, added features, better Perf/mm^2, Perf/Watt, great overclocking headroom (I know that the 6870 is a great overclocker, but lets just say its a rumour) all add up and are most welcome. Heres hoping they are priced right. $199/$249 should translate to £169/£209 over here, thats great if true. Id get better than 5850 performance for the same money. Small leap, but every little bit helps
edit: Tajoh, 5850 @ 5870 speeds is still about 3 - 5% slower. This is faster than 5850 having 320 less shaders at roughly 5870 speeds. Surely there have been changes to the architecture, but maybe not dramatic..
Since they have added a bunch of hardware features, why wouldnt they tweak the arch while they are at it? As I mentioned a month or so back, Barts is a tweaked Cypress with added features.
Well actually 6870 is a 5830 with double the ROPs + better ILP + better Tessellator + HDMI 1.4
It is not a new architecture, it’s a Cypress refresh but AMD felt that it should name it 6000 series.
Let’s wait and see full reviews on Friday to have a better view both on performance and prices.
cant, since all 6800s are suppose to be xfire compatible, if you mix numbers then you are also suppose to mix cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by drjunk
which then makes my opinion pointless too, lol
people just need to get over the naming thing.
I think that extra 50mhz is helping out as well as the extra memory bandwidth quite a bit. The extra shaders are not helping that much because a bottle neck is already being reached I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightSpeed
I don't think its's really that much better than a 5850. Your getting less hardware for the money. I think a 5850 overclocked to 900 mhz would beat a 6830 quite handily. If I had the choice to buy both at the same price, I would pick the 5850 as it is more potent because of the performance/clock.
Performance per mm is only benefiting the AMD. The power usage seems similar too between the two cards and I have a feeling game performance is going to more similar than different.
Judging from that review I listed of the 5830(notice the vantage scores too), I think a 5830 at 900/1200clk with double the ROPs would perform exactly like barts xt. Bare minimum I think, doubling the Rops would add 10% to the benchmarks results in that review I posted.
I think the better tessellation performance is entirely from clocks. So if you overclock the 5850 to 900/1200Clks, you would get the same tessellation performance.
So Carfax is out of work now, then? :argue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitriman
Not really. See AMD's slide, the new tesselation performance depends on the tesselation factor. Previously it was a linear straight line. Surely something has been done to those units to change performance, and also an increase in clocks from 850 to 900 wont net that much of a performance difference (note that 6870 was compared to a 5870 for tesselation)Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
Youre also forgetting AA and AF improvements, especially the new AA mode which you know is a hardware change.
Also, most voltage tweaked 5850's clock to 1000/1200 and I'd say most voltage tweaked 6870's will reach 1100/1200. Performance difference would be very small IMO, maybe <5%. The added features would make up for it, but again, to each his own.
So yeah, since they did tweak the architecture and i'm sure it has more performance per shader. Not that much more, but there is definitely a change
+ higher clocks, + lower power consumption, + better IQ, + DP1.2, + quad head display support (six head with DP 1.2)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aten-Ra
Well ,to be honest, after reading all this "I would call them cards as.." posts, im beginning to see the light with amd chosing.
Taking into account price/performance/features and NOT renaming 5770s ,its clear AMD had a tough nut to crack with naming these, they are to similar to 58xx to call them 5700, 256bit bus for example, different price segment too.
It aint to pretty, but AMD had to do this taking cayman into the equotion.
Price on these looks really good.
And really , all "recommendations" from users here look worse on the whole :P
:rofl::up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kej
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
In this case why not say the 6870 is a 5850 with 320 less shaders (5850 have 32 ROP ) and OC to 900mhz ?
I don't say you are wrong, but right now it's just impossible to say what change or not have been made :shrug:
You really should get a grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
First you were yelling about how AMD was only naming the new series this way so they could justify the same price as last gen ( 499 for a 6870 :rolleyes: ).
But when that turned out to be wrong you are now saying that they aren't bringing anything new to the table with these new cards, not justifying the price. I'm willing to bet you are wrong about that too. And even if not you basically ignored the better price/performance ratio. What more do you want then better performance for the price?
And why assume the worst? It could be 14 SIMD engines * 20 SPs per SIMD * 4 SPUs per SP. That still comes to 1120 shaders.
like I said, Tajoh is the new Terrance.... nonsense posting with solid facts based on what his imagination fabricates...
HIS 6870 listed @ Tiger for $270 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...926&CatId=3669. Says it has 960 SP too.
Availability: Order Today, Ships Today!
I bet they overpriced it, not surprising for TG
Quote:
Originally Posted by xBanzai89
Quote:
Originally Posted by xBanzai89
Quote:
Item Number: H231-6870
Model: H687F1G2M
Availability: Order Today, Ships Today
and it ships today too?
quick someone overnight it and get some results up :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
Amazon has it for 275 pre order http://www.amazon.com/HIS-Eyefinity-...tag=atmlinr-20. I don't know. Hopefully just prelaunch stunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagleclaw
So weren't those slides official AMD slides from a recent meeting then or should we just assume TD is using incorrect data (960 SPs) ? Can't believe we're few days away and yet we don't even know the final specs for sure ARRGGHHH. Must be a new record.
Man I don't think I've ever been this excited about some new cards coming out...ok maybe when the 8800GT did! But boy, its crazy to think we're so close to release date and barely any official specs! Anyway, I really hope they price the 6870 around $250 USD, in which case I will buy one. The 6850 cooler (under the plastic cover) looks VERY tiny...hope they don't run too hot as im sure this would be a turn-off. Really wished the power connectors on the 6870 were placed on the back of the PCB like the 6850!
TD probably transposed the shader count from 6850 on the 6870. The slides say 6850 has 960 shaders.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD
It looks like is going to be:
6850 = $199
6870 = $249
I think it will still come true. I believe cayman xt will be 499 or higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solus Corvus
Point to where I really said bart xt was going to be 499. Really show it to me? I said barts was going to be around 250 dollars or more and I am pretty right on that I think.
The only time if I ever did call a 6870 499, is before the damn reshifting of product happened. Really show me where I posted a 6870 for 499(I think cayman is going to be 499 or more) and I was referring to barts? If I said it, you could tell I was posting entirely about cayman being this price.
Really show me!!!! Where I said barts XT was going to be $499.
CFing two 6850s (or 6870) looks to be great choice from perf/$ POV. If 6850 OCs good,it may become the new 4850 and instant best buy.
No problem:Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=171
We already knew about the renaming, as is clear by your reference to the 6970 and in the context of the thread up to that point.Quote:
But its going to be pretty scary for the consumer. 6870, 499 MSRP 600+street price. 6970 750MSRP 850+ dollar street price.
Also: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...92#post4533492
Enjoy. :toast:
This was August, nothing was confirmed about the renaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solus Corvus
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1278/roadmap.jpg
I was referring to this chart obviously. Hell I quoted it, which suggest Cayman as a 5870 series. Not bart xt or this new 5870, as your trying to make it out to be and completely misconstrue.
"Is that referring to performance or pricing. Because it is pricing which is likely, its looks like everything getting priced to what I suspected it would. A 6770 being priced like a 5830... ouch. I think the 6650 and 6670 have to stay at the pricing they are at because they still have to keep some cards under 100 dollars. Man though, if the 6970 gets priced at 699 or 799. The 6950 is priced like a 5970 and those cards are already 700 dollars. Man thats going to suck for the consumer. Makes me scared how pricey the black editions or limited editions will get. Want to replace the 4870x2 but man its going to be pricey.
If it is in regards to performance which is less likely, I think its pretty underwhelming to see the 6850 slower than a 5870.
It wouldn't surprise both are true and performance is as the chart shows as well as pricing is going up for almost the entire line up."
I said that chart referred to pricing, so bart xt for example or the original 6770 would be priced at 5830 levels and 5830 levels is 239, some rumors are suggesting this type of pricing and these are on the lower sides of real estimates? What really damn you in this argument is that chart, if this is your only evidence is the cayman name is right where the 6870 is.
Your honestly not making a case for yourself here. I wasn't stating anything as facts and I was interpreting a chart which you can tell by the tone of what I was writing.
mate your logic is a flawed as your posts, from the majority of your posts I have read for the last few weeks, you seem to arrive at conclusions by pulling them out of your hat, if you post something just to do thread bashing then so be it.... you asked where you said about pricing, it was shown to you and now you give a piss weak excuse..... really depicts poor personal character as you try to avoid admittance for your mistakes
Read the thread again if you don't remember. That chart came out AFTER your comment. Several pages after, in fact. And you were even quoting another poster's comment about BARTS.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
tajoh111 loves thread bashing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solus Corvus
period
How can the chart come after my comment if I quoted it. The rename shifting was more or less confirmed late September.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solus Corvus
That earlier post was in late august, no one had any idea barts xt was going to be shift into a 6870.
Dude, you aren't helping. From the random inflammatory posts to the misunderstanding of unrelated technologies, please just stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
I linked two comments. The one I included a quote from was one that was posted a long time before that chart was out. The second link was just to back up your continued complaining about poor price/performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
Edit:
Yes they did. Read the thread if you are in doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
Back pedaling = 3 more pages of fun times
Admittance = 1 post
I like fun times /popcorn
Well actually the GT200 is just G92 with double the ROPS + double the buswidth + some other features.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aten-Ra
It's not a new architecture, it's a G92 refresh but Nvidia felt that it should name it 200 series. (Oh wait, Nvidia did actaully make G92 the 200 series :rofl:)
Lemme try again...
Well actually Fermi is just GT200 shrunk with rearranged ROPS + GDDR5 + better Tesselator + some CUDA changes.
It's not a new architecture, it's a GT200 refresh but Nvidiaf elt that it should name it 400 series.
See what we did there? :ROTF:
Everything since unified shader architecture became the norm is just a "refresh" of before, and frankly, this is as close to an architecture change for ATI as we've seen since R600
I don't see it (the renaming confirmation) in august at all and honestly, if your saying the renaming was confirmed earlier than that chart and that chart is more recent, then how come that chart says a 6870 is a Cayman part. If the name shifting was confirmed, wouldn't that chart show Bart and 6870 together, rather than Cayman and 6870 together, in addition to the 6770 part missing entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solus Corvus
I really didn't start believing the renaming was going to happen until LordECC started mentioning it; which I even mention when I criticized AMD for this renaming practice and this came much later.
Fudzilla typically jumps the gun way too early and he even said barts was going to replace the 58xx series and he said this at the end of September.
http://www.fudzilla.com/graphics/ite...ce-5800-series
The reshifting was only confirmed late September or early October, Heck until we got the boxes it wasn't really even confirmed because alot of people still had faith AMD wasn't going to do the name shifting.
Solas, to win this argument you need to do two things. Confirm that most people knew about the Barts xt reshifting to a 68xx series in August and in addition, show I believed this reshifting during this time as well. Not speculation even, but I entirely believed.
I dont understand why people say its new either.
Please take your arguing (tajoh & solus) to PM and spare us from the already "90%-crap posts and 10% useful posts" thread.
I'm not trying to "win". I just want you to think twice before predicting the absolute worst outcome based on little evidence whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
You said that this would be the most expensive generation of cards ever. It turns out that probably isn't true. We are getting more performance + some extra features/fixes for the same price.
Why don't you explain what you were hoping from this generation besides a better price/performance ratio and more features. I don't know what else you would expect.
Worried about the SNR? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD
I honestly read it so many times and Cayman is the only thing really being mentioned in August really and performance scores of it and it is still being referred to a 6870.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solus Corvus
So I don't think you can prove the renaming and reshifting of cayman and bart xt was known in late august...
I think you should really look of value in the context of how much of a jump in value occurred in prior generations. Its kind of ok, but its not earth shattering and actually quite disappointing if you compare it to the last few. Some extra performance for the same price wasn't 10%, it was 50% or more. As a result, I can't help but feel this generation is about ballooning up AMD margins rather than giving extra value to the consumer.
I think I am being more realistic than anything. If we compared value to the last generation, I don't know how people can be really excited this generation beside atleast for me, the ultra high end parts.
It is starting to look like the most expensive, what should have been a 6770 is being priced in the 250 range(which is a tough sell, hence the naming shift). Bart xt should not be considered the successor to 5870, because they do not beat them in performance.
Considering scalping is likely to occur because AMD said they plan to produce chips in the 100,000's(CEO said it) before the end of this quarter(compared to last gen or 6xxx where they produced 2 million cards, where cards were heavily scalped), it could be worse than the last generation for scalping combined with the naming shift, we might get incredible scalping for even barts. Cayman will definitely hit 500+ dollars especially after scalping(perhaps 600 if we are unlucky). And with prices like that for single chips, how expensive is Antilles going to be?
Remember pricing for the 5850? How it started off low in retailers and jumped sky high? If the retail price of the 6870 is 250 which is very similar to the 5850 starting price, don't you think for a card that is 33% smaller than the 5850, has a little bit better performance for near 300 dollars would not be the greatest value for a next gen part?
I think I am being reasonable with my arguments here.
My expectation for this generation was barts to not adopt the 68xx moniker or more specifically the 6870 and 6850 moniker because it implies better performance. Bart xt as a 6830(which makes alot more sense since they might have similar pricing) is alot better and anything else relegated to the 67xx series.
Additionally I wish they would have kept bart and its entire line under 200 dollars. It might be a bigger chip but money can still be made off of a 200 dollar 230mm chip as Nvidia initial pricing of the gtx 460 has shown.
I also wish they produced bigger quantities(unless the CEO is lying), so we would not get price scalped.
Everythings is just going to get more expensive this generation and it going to really reduce the value we should be getting out a next gen part. Part of it is AMD having no competition and getting greedier and retailers scalping.
What disappoint me this generation is Nvidia has no real response and pricing of these cards will remain pretty high and combined with scalping because of low quanities, we lose any value for buying this generation.
This move from AMD cashing in on crappy competition to make ridiculous money, honestly is kind of good for us in the short run(very little good), is really bad for alot of people in the long run. I don't want NV to fold, nor its partners. Bad competition has put BFG out of business and likely, alot of people that work at Nvidia will lose their job. I don't want Nvidia to die. I already think for the the 5xxx series and the gtx 4xx series provide enough power for this generation except maybe for a few eyefinity jobs. Putting out a generation that although performs better than the last generation really doesn't do beside screw NVidia and have to sell products at a loss, while AMD makes tremendous profits(where we pay more than we should). I hate it when any company has to sell at a loss because companies get beat up really bad as AMD past has shown.
They do have cost leadership, clearly so with this new gen chips. But whether they have the sufficient supply to satisfy the demand if they lowered the price, we would never know, will we ? We know aiming for greater market share is very important in this bussiness and profit is the result of margin times units sold, but if the supply is constrained, they would be FOOLISH not to maximize profit out of limited goods sold in the first place, it ain't no charity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumbucket843
Gotta admit, this is turning into a decent, quite good indeed, yet not all that great as i expected. Well, that's the risk being an optimist, but i think this is very, very FAR from a failure. Still have to wait for official pricing when NDA's lifted, but credible source is telling me that the SEP for these babies are US$ 239 for Bart XT and US$ 179 for Bart Pro. At those prices, i think it will be popular cards in the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
Regarding the mArch, the shader seems mostly untouched, only uncore got a bit of touches, especially the tesselator with its new buffering and texturing with better algorithm. There are hints from people that know their bussiness regarding shader implementation in NI family, they suspect that while Bart's shader will stay 5D, there will be NI chip that implement 4D shader arrangement, Cayman most likely, but it's still just speculation (out of good base though).
Bro, cheer up a little and be a bit more optimistic regarding AMD, won't do you no harm. ;)
AMD has turned us against each other :shrug:
stop arguing about what could be and just wait a few more days to find out what is
dude i need a 6870 for under 200$Quote:
Originally Posted by ripken204
ive killed for less, lol
Price/performance jump that are associated with generations mainly occur because of semiconductor technology progress it also heavily relies on competition ,no semiconductor technology progress was made since the last generation,AMD is still on 40nm.The cards are priced somewhat competitively,but ultimately market will dictate the pricing shortly after launch when demand settles.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
I don't understand why people think AMD should be giving away these chips just because they are smaller,consumer is not buying silicone they are buying performance last I checked. More so they need margins,last quarter they made 1mil,which is pathetic.
I don't believe we will get scalped, doubt we will see the same demand that occurred when 5xxx launched,there is competition in the market now,especially in the price bracket.And more importantly people that wanted DX11 already have it,nothing overly significant sets apart 6xxx series from competition like the last time.
Nvidias is not going anywhere ,they have a lot of money to survive,after all AMD has been bleeding money for how long now ,and they are still here.
i will probably get a 6870 as well, but based on current prices posted on websites $200 wont be happeningQuote:
Originally Posted by Manicdan
You can judge the new generation however you want. But you aren't being that realistic, from my perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
We all knew that this generation wasn't going to as big of a leap as we hoped after TSMC canceled 32nm. NI being designed for 32nm and then having to be reworked in short order to fit on 40nm - things could have been worse, IMO. Who knows what the pricing\naming structure would have been like if 32nm wasn't canceled.
If you look at it from the perspective of all the other products we can get now versus their prices then the rumored price/performance of these new parts isn't bad. It's an improvement over last generation. Even if it isn't as big of an improvement that we, perhaps unrealistically, had expected. If the company prices products commensurate with market pressures and fabrication costs then what is wrong, the company or your expectations?
As for the naming structure, as I have said before, I don't like it. For the past few generations ATI's top single chip was *870 and it should have stayed that way, IMO.
Nvidia will be fine. They can lean on their workstation and HPC cards just like AMD is leaning on its graphics division. If Nvidia is for a time not the dominant discreet GPU maker it could ultimately lead to a more competitive marketplace. Maybe not in this generation, but the more people that are willing to switch between AMD and Nvidia when either releases a good product means that they both have to fight harder for our money. That's better then in the recent past when most wouldn't look twice at a non-Nvidia card.
HIS HD 6870 On Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/HIS-Eyefinity-...7539565&sr=1-1
Did it ever occur to you, that it has been assumption of press that Cayman would be named as 68x0. Not official info. The burden is on you to show any official info showing Cayman as 68x0 part. As all official I have seen is that it has always been 69x0. It cant be rename or reshift or what ever u call it if it was not officially something before.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
LOL, this is epic, gotta respond anyway, can't help it. :D
This is a personal battle, so i won't take part. But i do know that you're being pessimistic regarding AMD's good intention of adding value to their costumers, right ? OK, move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
In this, we will have to wait for the complete review, won't we ? Fact, this new gen chips is still built on TSMC's 40 nm process, die size does get smaller, but AMD's graphic isn't exactly raking in profits, so ? We'll see what kinda verdict that reviewers gonna put on these babies, somehow with the leaked US$ 239 & 179 tag prices, i think they will be quite positive. Value pof a product is always calculated factoring what kinda value that competitor's offering. Now, if the card is slightly more expensive, yet performs much higher in percentage compared to the price difference, consuming less power, incorporating new features, aren't those giving more value to customers ? Regarding OCing room, we just have wait for more info, Bart XT has the same TDP of Cypress Pro, and the cooler of the reference board isn't bad either, there is some wiggle room, but indeed there's a concern regarding chip's clocking wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
No, being OVERLY pessimistic is more appropiate. I've admitted of being too optimistic sometime, but you're too much further on the opposite. If the SEP prices are true, that's already a great starter, considering the cards are the more expensive reference board designs. If the supply permits, we can expect more aggressive pricing movement from AMD's AIBs, since nVidia does have competitors in this segment & won't easily yield their fame & goodwill that GTX 460 series produced.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
Considering the leaked presentation slide, it's quite clear that AMD build this chip as the sweetspot successor of RV 770, and compare it against HD 5850 of its own, and GF 104 derivatives from competitor. It clearly beat the competitors in absolute stock performance, with lower TDP and more features compared to its older brother. We have to see whether it will be a good OCer, but the leaked US$ 239 price shows that Bart XT will be priced lower than HD 5850 current market price, matching GTX 470 performance, if those aren't REASONABLY good for consumers, then what else would be ?
We'll see how it unfolds. We hear you that "we might get incredible scalping for even barts", perhaps US$ 399 scalped price ?? I don't think your EXTREME scenario would happen, but to each on their own prediction, okay, move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
No, it was AMD's fault for not factoring TSMC's incompetence of supplying enough wafer for Evergreen generation, creating a short in supply that pushed the price structure upward, whether by MSRP increase or scalping. You make so much PESSIMIST assumption it's just mindboggling.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
REASONABLE =! being totally pessimistic that's borderline annoying (Terrance annoying).
You can expect whatever you want, the market will be the final judge of AMD's decision. I admit that this resegmenting, new naming allignment, is rather confusing & misleading, but your suggestion is even more confusing. Bart is still made with TSMC's 40 nm process, significantly bigger than Juniper, AMD decided that the chip is more appropiate (for their own good) in the new market segment, replacing HD 5850 & the inept HD 5830, rather than straightforward replacing Juniper, that's their discretion and from one perspective, quite a rightful & correct thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
And you now think that AMD's a charity not a company that's in corner, keep raking losses by quarters, and needs every penny they could get ? People can be naive but puhleezze ..... IT AIN'T NO CHARITY ! :shakes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
AMD has every FLEXIBILITY in pricing, much more so compared to nVidia with their own GF 104, but what incentive do they have to follow your price structure suggestion ? The minute nVidia decide to be more competitive by launching full fledged GF 104 at reasonable price, reducing the current GTX 460s price, and if supply outstripped demand, you think AMD will be stupid to allow the stockpile of unsold Barts mounting in their warehouse get unsold because of uncompetitive prices as you suggested ??
Why do you think AMD would INTENTIONALLY choke the supply if they have COST LEADERSHIP over competitor ???? Do you know economics 1-2-3 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
This still has to be proven, and while i do think AMD will focus more on optimising the profitability of their graphic division (since compute division is still in shambles), they're smart enough to realize not to destroy the goodwill that was built throughout the last 2 years and marketshare domination/leadership is very important for their longterm well being.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
Be optimistic fella, even i still has some optimism left for nVidia, releasing the full fledged GF 104 in sufficient quantity & competitive price is a must and seems imminent. Above that, well, we'll see whether they have the guts to release dual GF 104 card, atleast to maintain some dignity until the real response (if you want to call another monster chip as real response to Cayman) arrives in Q1 2011.Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
This is quite a hilarity coming from you, LOL. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111
1. No, AMD's getting more profitable in the short run is rather bad for consumers, but GOOD for consumers longterm interest, since it will make AMD's stronger & healthier, more R&D money for future products.
2. LOL, NO, nVidia won't fold anytime near, nor for medium term (longterm, well, everything die in the end). nVidia's balance sheet is still much stronger than AMD, they still have quite a big budget for better products in the future, their engineers aren't imbecile, and they can learn from their mistakes. Leveraging their total dominance in professional market is good enough to shore them out of today's the storm, so i find your view is too darn PESSIMIST. :D
3. LOL, so you condemn AMD's effort to be more profitable while also trying to segment the market better & offer more value to consumers with more appropiate products ??? Have you condemn nVidia in the past for controlling 65% market share, dominant enough to shovel CUDA, PhysX, and their propietary craps down our throat ?? Did you condemn nVidia for releasing G80, while G71 was already dominant at that time & giving much more profit to nVidia compared to ATi at that time ??
You my friend, has so much flawed logic in your way of thinking, and too much PESSIMISM even NEGATIVISM toward AMD i start to think you're a hater already. :down:
If the NDA lifts on the 22nd, will we see 6970 reviews?
Have cards been sent out?
Edit: double post.
Internets LOL
To put it shortly, if one were to be genuinely interested in a product soon to be released (I know Iam) I think it would be normal to be more optimistic than negative.
I just want to see the price and performance of the top Cayman chip and Antilles. If Cayman really does have ~1920 shaders compared to Barts' 1120...
I am interested in the products(the higher ones anyway), I am just terrified of the pricing that will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by kadozer
The pricing difference between the x770 series and the 5870 or I guess now cayman has been atleast double. The 4770 was like 90 dollars and the 5770 was 159 dollars. So if Bart xt is 250, I could see cayman being 500 + without scalping and considering the size rumored, this seems like a possibility. So what will antilles be priced like if their single chip parts are already 500.
I don't think very many people, atleast in the know and remember last generations scalping, are going to be optimistic. I think they are going to expect long last scalping until NV responds with something. I bet alot of you guys that are interested in this card are going to buy at the first reasonable price they can find because they don't want to pay crazy scalping prices like last generation. And that my friend is a pessimism alot of us share I can imagine considering NV competition right now.
Terrance was completely biased against AMD. I am being pessimistic for NV and AMD and will say a positive about both companies when in my eyes, they deserve it. e.g the gtx 460, which is a great card for the price and honestly quite the comeback from the dog of an architecture gf100 is. I am not being so pessimistic with Intel so much right now because beside high prices( I was incredibly pessimistic about larrabee because they lacked the experience and this turned out to be truer than I thought possible. I wasn't expecting a scrapped product), their products have have been the most consistently good but perhaps overpriced in alot of ways.
The only product I have really been optimistic about and it turned out to be a complete dud was gf100. It let me down so much considering it had so much potential and so much hype(I was thinking NV had kind of a flop before, no way would NV screw up it new next gen) and I was completely let down. After that I grew quite a bit more pessimistic on product launches.
I was probably one of the only people on this board to question, whether barts or the 6xxx in general was going to have 4d shaders(and barts has a 5d shader). Sometimes pessimism can help you see through hype and perhaps high expectations or rumors.