A Semi-accurate Look into Fermi

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Originally Posted by SKYMTL

That's a hilarious statement.

Yes, Eyefinity is great for pushing the limits of current graphics cards by asking them to render a huge amount of pixels and it really ups the immersive experience when gaming. However, much like NVIDIA's 3D Vision it relies on driver support which means it may or may not work with all games. As such, you can't determine success or failure based on a product's support of a niche market.

The main issue we now have is that current game engines just can't push the current generation of DX11 GPUs far enough. On the plus side, DX11 doesn't seem to be turning out to be the amazingly efficient API many promised so the extra rendering power will come in handy in certain situations. If you thought DiRT took a huge hit when rendering the DX11 code path, wait 'till you see what happens in AvP. This also brings into doubt the real selling point of lower-end cards that support a next-gen API but that happens in every generation.

All this means is that consumers won't have to spend the amount of money they used to when searching for an optimal gaming experience. I remember spending over $600 for an 7800 GTX which could play most games at high resolutions with IQ settings near max. However, stepping down to even a 7800 GT at $450 meant sacrificing that optimal gaming experience. Now, you can buy a $299 HD 5850 or whatever NVIDIA comes out with to compete with it and you can play every single current game at the highest detail settings while still sitting pretty when upcoming games are released. What's not to like about that?

Basically, what I am saying is that having massively powerful high end cards makes their offshoot mid-range products all the more appealing from a price / performance perspective. So, I can't see why anyone would call the possibility ultra high-end Fermi performance a "failure"

This doesn't make Fermi-based cards a failure, it just means that both Fermi and ATI's current generation of cards may have a longevity that far surpasses the G80.

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Thats a fair analysis, thanks...:)

Regarding Fermi now, from the start I have personally said that given presumed yields, diesize, scalability and production cost, fermi must deliver 40%+ higher than evergreen performance in games to have a good run. From the looks of it, it might just get that (and more). Thats good for all consumers, since both companies will have almost equal perf/$ ratios, and the resulting price competition will benefit all.

Lets hope that the greens match that goal, it would be a very interesting 6months ahead.

I'd also like to see nvidia try to address the actual moneymakers (ie the mainstream and lower performance market segments).

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Originally Posted by skugpezz

I am done, everything is called trolling these days.

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Uh, no. Just the vast majority of your posts which lack even an ADD diagnosed middle schooler's attention to spelling and grammar and usually contain blatant lies and other inflammatory content designed to provoke conflict on what would otherwise be an educated discussion of the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by skugpezz

Take a look at OCN ban request are been posted by the minute for you

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Yeah, those requests come from mainly AMD/ATI fanboys who are beginning to realize their ad hominem arguments against me are becoming less and less effective. If you will take note, you are banned and I am not.

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Originally Posted by 003

Uh, no. Just the vast majority of your posts which lack even an ADD diagnosed middle schooler's attention to spelling and grammar and usually contain blatant lies and other inflammatory content designed to provoke conflict on what would otherwise be an educated discussion of the topic at hand.



Yeah, those requests come from mainly AMD/ATI fanboys who are beginning to realize their ad hominem arguments against me are becoming less and less effective. If you will take note, you are banned and I am not.

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I can tell you right now your post is a flaim bait and borderline personal attack.:down:

It's true that ad hominems get thrown around way too readily these days. It's almost as if people think they are a substitute for a real discussion. :shakes:

Could we atleast have 003 change his avatar? I don't know if it's just me, but I feel rage building every time I look at his avatar :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Vit^pr0n

Could we atleast have 003 change his avatar? I don't know if it's just me, but I feel rage building every time I look at his avatar :rofl:

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Even though I don't believe it's the case, it makes me think he either looks like Jen or is Jen :D

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Originally Posted by Calmatory

Let me guess; you aren't a programmer, right? At least you've got no clue about the industry. But yeah, great claims there, pal. It's just the contrary.

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C'mon now, if youre not going to explain why, then why post?

At the moment I am tending to think that a lot of programmers will do exactly as he said. Not all, and i'm sure it can be used well. But programmers often are lazy. I dont really blame them, people in general are lazy, lazy, lazy. If you only play A1 grade titles then you might never notice, those games might get made with due care.

Maybe you are a programmer, maybe even in working in the games industry. But make your point properly.

I would be willing to bet that by percentage the programmer population is LESS lazy than the general public. What is being attributed to programmer laziness is in reality management being shortsighted and trying to meet a budget. Writing a whitepaper and doing it "right" is typically not on the list of requirements for a project. If I do see a programmer taking a shortcut that is detrimental to the long term stability of a product I am the first to holler BS but the general perception that programmers are lazy is what's BS.

Any word or ideas as to if/when the A3 respin was done or due?
I am curious as to whether Charlie either got word that an A3 respin was about to happen... or whether this respin has already happened and he got word that they have moved from A2 to A3! I hope the latter is true as that means Fermi would be on target for January paper launch and Feb/March Hard Launch
John

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Originally Posted by JohnZS

Any word or ideas as to if/when the A3 respin was done or due?
I am curious as to whether Charlie either got word that an A3 respin was about to happen... or whether this respin has already happened and he got word that they have moved from A2 to A3! I hope the latter is true as that means Fermi would be on target for January paper launch and Feb/March Hard Launch
John

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from info I got it still cant make 500mhz .:fact:

There's one quick easy way to solve this NDA bullcrap, take a photo of your NDA agreement (with appropriate parts blacked out) and post it. Don't do it & you're just blowing hot air and probably deserve at least a temporary ban if not a permanent one. If you don't prove it, you'll both be labelled as liars, shills, [insert insulting term here] etc. I think the saying goes a little something like this:


Put up or shut up!

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Originally Posted by DeathReborn

There's one quick easy way to solve this NDA bullcrap, take a photo of your NDA agreement (with appropriate parts blacked out) and post it. Don't do it & you're just blowing hot air and probably deserve at least a temporary ban if not a permanent one. If you don't prove it, you'll both be labelled as liars, shills, [insert insulting term here] etc. I think the saying goes a little something like this:


Put up or shut up!

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QFT

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Originally Posted by gumballguy

C'mon now, if youre not going to explain why, then why post?

At the moment I am tending to think that a lot of programmers will do exactly as he said. Not all, and i'm sure it can be used well. But programmers often are lazy. I dont really blame them, people in general are lazy, lazy, lazy. If you only play A1 grade titles then you might never notice, those games might get made with due care.

Maybe you are a programmer, maybe even in working in the games industry. But make your point properly.

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Way offtopic but meh.

Yes, I am a programmer but I am not working in the industry.

Basically the programmers work at VERY limited timeframe and resources. The whole industry is being stretched to it's limits to minimize the costs. You can blame the programmers for heavy engine for all you want, but in fact it's not the lack of know-how, it's the lack of time and resources. No time to optimize, no time to squish the bugs. Once the feature works, it's time to move forward and forget about whats left behind.

It is practically impossible for a small and dedicated team to be succesful without huge marketing. And to have huge marketing, you have to sign contracts with big publishers. Thats when the deadlines get very tight and problems arise. Remedy Entertainment is a good example. Once Microsoft came along with Alan Wake, people lost their interest(XO exclusivity, console port etc.).

This is the reason why I WANT to see the "death of PC gaming". Big players move away and the small and dedicated teams move in and take control. Thats when people start making games for fun, for other gamers and with passion.

Which other industries have employees working 60 hours per week during the crunch time(When the deadline is approaching and everything has to be get done in time, it's very usual)? 80? Blame the companies, not the individual people who are working their asses off to deliver what is required from them. I dislike the way of the industry is myself very much, mainly due to the reign of the big players and their watered-down visions(console ports, cut down the costs at the expense of the comfort of working, release sequel after sequel at full price etc).

The bottom line is that the people others call lazy, are not only working more, but are working under much more pressure and stress than just about any of the people who call them lazy. It's a very rough industry with low salaries and tons of overtime work.

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Originally Posted by Calmatory

Way offtopic but meh.

Yes, I am a programmer but I am not working in the industry.

Basically the programmers work at VERY limited timeframe and resources. The whole industry is being stretched to it's limits to minimize the costs. You can blame the programmers for heavy engine for all you want, but in fact it's not the lack of know-how, it's the lack of time and resources. No time to optimize, no time to squish the bugs. Once the feature works, it's time to move forward and forget about whats left behind.

It is practically impossible for a small and dedicated team to be succesful without huge marketing. And to have huge marketing, you have to sign contracts with big publishers. Thats when the deadlines get very tight and problems arise. Remedy Entertainment is a good example. Once Microsoft came along with Alan Wake, people lost their interest(XO exclusivity, console port etc.).

This is the reason why I WANT to see the "death of PC gaming". Big players move away and the small and dedicated teams move in and take control. Thats when people start making games for fun, for other gamers and with passion.

Which other industries have employees working 60 hours per week during the crunch time(When the deadline is approaching and everything has to be get done in time, it's very usual)? 80? Blame the companies, not the individual people who are working their asses off to deliver what is required from them. I dislike the way of the industry is myself very much, mainly due to the reign of the big players and their watered-down visions(console ports, cut down the costs at the expense of the comfort of working, release sequel after sequel at full price etc).

The bottom line is that the people others call lazy, are not only working more, but are working under much more pressure and stress than just about any of the people who call them lazy. It's a very rough industry with low salaries and tons of overtime work.

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I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think you should generalize quite so freely. I've worked as a furniture mover during university student, and I often worked 60+ hrs a week for much much less money than a programmer is getting. A lot of people work very hard and are "underpaid", ulitmately they have to make a decision whether to stay where they are or move on. No one is putting a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to become game programmers. If they enjoy game programming but the don't like their work conditions it's up to them to decide whether to pursue something else/a different company/starting their own company/whatever. They are game programmers bc they applied for a job to become one and got what they wanted.

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Originally Posted by flippin_waffles

Well i'd talk about fermi, but there's nothing really to say about it except it seems to be very late and in real trouble. Anyway, carry on, pardon the intrusion! :D

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Judging by your post history I'm convinced that you are Charlie.

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Originally Posted by skugpezz

eyefinity and crysis worsk great also

http://www.erodov.com/forums/crysis-...ion/24784.html
http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/25446765

EDIT: After seeing that, ME WANT EYEFINITY

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Not according to the benchmarks in the first link that you posted.

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Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ

Judging by your post history I'm convinced that you are Charlie.



Not according to the benchmarks in the first link that you posted.

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:rofl: if it makes you sleep better at night LOL. an nvidia card cant even do half that res with 10fps:down: . All I see in the links are smooth gameplay and high rez 7680 x 1600 lets see your gtx 280 do half that or even 19X12 smoothly:ROTF:

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Originally Posted by skugpezz

:rofl: if it makes you sleep better at night LOL. an nvidia card cant even do half that res with 10fps:down: . All I see in the links are smooth gameplay and high rez 7680 x 1600 lets see your gtx 280 do half that or even 19X12 smoothly:ROTF:

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I also paid about half of what a single 5870 goes for over a year ago. My card runs Crysis fine, lets see a 4890 keep up with it especially overclocked. My 280 clocks like a beast, I wish that I could say that about a single 4870 that I have owned not that any of this is on topic in this thread. That card slaps around any last gen ATI card that I have personally used.

Your just flaming and my argument still stands. I don't find what 13 fps? To be playable. You might want to look at your Guru3d link again.

What cracks me up is that you are one of the people calling for a ban on 003.

One thing about Charlie I've noticed over the years is how when he gets his hands on performance information which is far better than he previously predicted (while continually bashing the product), he typically becomes a much more sober individual and actually starts sounding like an objective journalist.

:rofl: I cannot believe I mentioned Charlie and the words "objective journalist" in the same sentence.

... what is the world coming to.

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Originally Posted by Calmatory

Way offtopic but meh.

Yes, I am a programmer but I am not working in the industry.

Basically the programmers work at VERY limited timeframe and resources. The whole industry is being stretched to it's limits to minimize the costs. You can blame the programmers for heavy engine for all you want, but in fact it's not the lack of know-how, it's the lack of time and resources. No time to optimize, no time to squish the bugs. Once the feature works, it's time to move forward and forget about whats left behind.

It is practically impossible for a small and dedicated team to be succesful without huge marketing. And to have huge marketing, you have to sign contracts with big publishers. Thats when the deadlines get very tight and problems arise. Remedy Entertainment is a good example. Once Microsoft came along with Alan Wake, people lost their interest(XO exclusivity, console port etc.).

This is the reason why I WANT to see the "death of PC gaming". Big players move away and the small and dedicated teams move in and take control. Thats when people start making games for fun, for other gamers and with passion.

Which other industries have employees working 60 hours per week during the crunch time(When the deadline is approaching and everything has to be get done in time, it's very usual)? 80? Blame the companies, not the individual people who are working their asses off to deliver what is required from them. I dislike the way of the industry is myself very much, mainly due to the reign of the big players and their watered-down visions(console ports, cut down the costs at the expense of the comfort of working, release sequel after sequel at full price etc).

The bottom line is that the people others call lazy, are not only working more, but are working under much more pressure and stress than just about any of the people who call them lazy. It's a very rough industry with low salaries and tons of overtime work.

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Laziness and other points aside, was I wrong because implementing tessellation on a game requires a lot of programming and / or other kinds of work? That's not a rhetorical question, I am asking because I don't know.

I said "lazy PC programmer's way" with consoles in mind. It's no secret that PC games don't sell and not a lot of programming work (exclusive for the PC) goes into games. If implementing tessellation is easy, then they'll just add it onto the console versions and tout it as groundbreaking PC graphics, killing FPS numbers (and not making graphics look THAT better)

If tessellation requires indeed a lot of work, then (simply) it won't be used in a lot of games, because all games are console ports.

Tessellation requires compatible models and artwork. So while some programming is involved, a lot (probably the majority) of the work lies with the graphics artists that create the models used in the game. In other words, we won't see it used properly until games are built from scratch with tessellation in mind.

If I understand it correctly you could potentially code a single hull and a single domain shader and bind them to all models if they all use the same HOS representation. It's creating those models that'll be the hard part.

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Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ

I also paid about half of what a single 5870 goes for over a year ago. My card runs Crysis fine, lets see a 4890 keep up with it especially overclocked. My 280 clocks like a beast, I wish that I could say that about a single 4870 that I have owned not that any of this is on topic in this thread. That card slaps around any last gen ATI card that I have personally used.

Your just flaming and my argument still stands. I don't find what 13 fps? To be playable. You might want to look at your Guru3d link again.

What cracks me up is that you are one of the people calling for a ban on 003.

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Congrats, so your one card does great. And that somehow relates to everyone else's experience with those respective cards, and in other situations?

As for your last line, he already had some time out last I remember

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Tessellation requires compatible models and artwork. So while some programming is involved, a lot (probably the majority) of the work lies with the graphics artists that create the models used in the game. In other words, we won't see it used properly until games are built from scratch with tessellation in mind.

If I understand it correctly you could potentially code a single hull and a single domain shader and bind them to all models if they all use the same HOS representation. It's creating those models that'll be the hard part.

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I see. But what about bump mapping? Can't something be coded that would use the tessellation engine to convert all such bump maps into actual polygons?

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Originally Posted by zerazax

Congrats, so your one card does great. And that somehow relates to everyone else's experience with those respective cards, and in other situations?

As for your last line, he already had some time out last I remember

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Yeah, I should have made it clear that was not necessarily the case at all times or even most of the time in the case of the x2 but in too many of the games that I play that was the case. Keep in mind that I never owned a 4890.

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Originally Posted by JohnZS

Any word or ideas as to if/when the A3 respin was done or due?
I am curious as to whether Charlie either got word that an A3 respin was about to happen... or whether this respin has already happened and he got word that they have moved from A2 to A3! I hope the latter is true as that means Fermi would be on target for January paper launch and Feb/March Hard Launch
John

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Did you read the article? Hotlots should be back at the beginning of the month. No Janurary paper launch, unless you call showing/demoing GF100 at an event a paper launch. The paper launch will come in Feb/March and no real availability, if you thought HD58x0 availability was bad just wait, until Q2.

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Originally Posted by skugpezz

from info I got it still cant make 500mhz .:fact:

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Then you have wrong info. A2 was already above 500mhz, A1 was supposedly just shy of said mhz though.

Edit- Hmmm... with the info that has come to light from a different forum, it seems metal respins don't drastically help clocks.

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Originally Posted by Calmatory

Way offtopic but meh.

Yes, I am a programmer but I am not working in the industry.

Basically the programmers work at VERY limited timeframe and resources. The whole industry is being stretched to it's limits to minimize the costs. You can blame the programmers for heavy engine for all you want, but in fact it's not the lack of know-how, it's the lack of time and resources. No time to optimize, no time to squish the bugs. Once the feature works, it's time to move forward and forget about whats left behind.

It is practically impossible for a small and dedicated team to be succesful without huge marketing. And to have huge marketing, you have to sign contracts with big publishers. Thats when the deadlines get very tight and problems arise. Remedy Entertainment is a good example. Once Microsoft came along with Alan Wake, people lost their interest(XO exclusivity, console port etc.).

This is the reason why I WANT to see the "death of PC gaming". Big players move away and the small and dedicated teams move in and take control. Thats when people start making games for fun, for other gamers and with passion.

Which other industries have employees working 60 hours per week during the crunch time(When the deadline is approaching and everything has to be get done in time, it's very usual)? 80? Blame the companies, not the individual people who are working their asses off to deliver what is required from them. I dislike the way of the industry is myself very much, mainly due to the reign of the big players and their watered-down visions(console ports, cut down the costs at the expense of the comfort of working, release sequel after sequel at full price etc).

The bottom line is that the people others call lazy, are not only working more, but are working under much more pressure and stress than just about any of the people who call them lazy. It's a very rough industry with low salaries and tons of overtime work.

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I agree very much. The PC gaming industry is rotten and it is largely because of the publishers and large developers. Many programmers I know, me included if I worked in the industry, would love to be allowed to carefully unroll loops and craft optimized assembly - but instead they are often not even given enough time to squash all known bugs before release. And on the content side things are just as bad. There is a wealth of creativity and innovative ideas out there but publishers will only fund "safe" games like ports, sequels, and dumbed down mass market drivel.

But I disagree that the PC game industry should die. The root cause is our buying habits as gamers. If we don't change the type of games we buy then we are never going to get the kind of change we are asking for. We have to actually purchase games that are innovative and have the features we are asking for. The other side of that coin is that we should not purchase games that we feel are lacking in these areas. Many people will buy an AAA title that is not really what they wanted, but also refuse to look at games from small and independent developers. Look at shattered horizon as an example. It's DX10 native, designed for the PC, has innovative gameplay, isn't dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, has an responsive developer that is making free DLC that doubles the number of maps, and is a measly $20. Yet despite answering many of the complaints about the current state of PC gaming, it's practically dead already. If an independent developer can't sell and innovative game for a low price then there is little hope that the industry will change.