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I'm considering it. Get two cheap used 17" or 19" LCD monitors and buy a Display Port to DVI adapter at Monoprice for $15 for the other monitor.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYMTL
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
L4D over 3 screens sure looks great imo.
+1 !! now we just need some Non Reference 5850's ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesrt2004
Single slot,single slot,single slot :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by villa1n
Can't you just cut the upper part and connect an extra monitor by using a DP adapter? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell Hound
2 dvi's a hdmi,and a display port can fit on one slot and that will also leave more room for vent.
I have looked through a large portion of the links and have yet to come across tri-fire or quad fire results. On page 16 someone linked tri-fire results, but they look obscure.
Your answer lies elsewhere, :stick: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Silaz
http://www.hardware.info/nl-NL/produ...le_CrossFireX/
From this thread,
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...233621&page=78
Cpu limited all the way it seems or MSI eclipse 16x/8x/8x PCI-E lane?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaredpace
The Stalker results were what caught my eye. Seem low.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbelJemka
The CPU is @ stock, I'm assuming? But it could be the PCI-E lanes like you mentioned. :confused:
Stalker is a poorly coded game , or so I read and was told .
Does anyone know when the HD 5870 2GB will be out ?
Sometime in Oct.Quote:
Originally Posted by s3rv3r
AMD Radeon HD 5870 Video Card Overclocking
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1090/1/
thanks for posting the thread OTH, you always start decent threads :up:, interesting re amd gpu clock tool, yes the ati overdrive goes blank when you exceed the ati overdrive max clocks which i think on reference is 900mhz so once they went above 900 the ati overdrive is blank same as on the 4890's , lets hope wizzard gets the techpowerup gputool up and running on the 5800 series as it worked flawlessly for me with 3 x 4890s in crossfire, and adjusting voltage up to 1.45 volts was straight forward using the techpowerup gpu tool on the 4890's and accordingly the 5800 seies are good for over 1000 on core with a voltage increase
The techpowerup review has tons of numbers with 5870s and 5850s in crossfire. :up:
But I'm always baffled by W1zzard listing no CUDA and PhysX as cons for ATI cards. Perhaps Nvidia cards get no ATI Stream support listed as their cons? :shrug:
good that that is your only concern with the reviewsQuote:
Originally Posted by lockee
this has confused me as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by lockee
shouldnt they put no havok, open cl support on nvidia card reviews?
if nv doesnt support opencl then they'll get "no opencl support". opencl isnt even out yet
a lot of people at universities use cuda for their crunching because it's the only thing that works and is cross platform
physx is part of a few titles like batman, might matter for some people
nv will get "no dx 11" on their cards even though there is zero use for it today
Thats not a 'con' as such - thats stating the flaming obvious - we KNOW that ATI doesn't do PhysX or CUDA, and we KNOW that nVidia doesnt do OpenCL or Eyefinity.
It's just nit picking for the sake of it.
YOU know, I know, half this forum knows, but 99.98% of the population don't. and btw, nvidia DOES openclQuote:
Originally Posted by Kai Robinson
@GLENBOY
You are welcome :D
AMD laat ATI HD 5870 met DirectX 11 los
http://tweakers.net/reviews/1390/amd...tx-11-los.html
My sister, her 3 kids her housband, has no idea what the difference is.
Just a typical average buyer, never know what they actually get and what the cards can do.
yeah i got told my 4870 512 was slower then my friends 9600gt 1gb :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
yeah its the hd5870six which has 2gb gddr5.......Quote:
Originally Posted by s3rv3r
as far as i know thats going to be the first model of 5870 with 2gb...
i'm waiting for that one, its out in october.... :up:
Obviously he does need to put this on reviews, because people are more confused than they seem...Yourself included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newblar
NVidia supports OpenCL... Much like OpenGL and OpenAL it's an open standard. If it didn't support NVidia hardware just because it was NVidia hardware when it's perfectly capable of doing the work, then it wouldn't be an open standard and as such wouldn't be part of the Open Library family.
Havok is 100% software based, and ever since Intel bought havok we haven't heard a THING about havok FX. By this point, we all may as well consider it canceled or shelved. HavokFX was slated to be able to run on both NVidia and ATi cards, and as such you couldn't use it as a con for NVidia.
Of course, considering intel bought Havok during the days that intel was trying to tell gamers that cpu meant more than gpu(funny how that panned out, no?) it's pretty much common knowledge that havok fx will never see the light of day. To this day, not a single game has ever used Havok FX.
Now, the reason why lack of cuda and physx support are cons for ATi is because both are used in the industry. Maybe not as widely used as they could be, but they ARE used none the less. As such, a lack of support for those features is still a con :up:
So he needs to put lack of ATI Stream in Nvidia card reviews because it use in the industry ;)
of course it is, it has half the ram, and is 4730 levels lower!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesrt2004
Couldn't agree more. I had a fun "argument" with a customer once about their 8500GT 1GB being the hot stuff and how that by suggesting he purchase a 512MB ATI product instead (HD 4770 ;the best and fastest card we carried at the time ) that I was as informed and intelligent as a cave hermit. I believe I was told by him that ATI cards licked his balls.... These kind of people never cease to crack me up.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
Anyone who takes the time to become informed however usually has a fair understanding of all the terms thrown up in the air and whats relevant and whats not. (eg showing Crysis as a game example on the box of a low end gpu ; That is correct Sir! That there 8500GT will "pwnzor" Crysis hardcores because it has 1337GBs of 128bit GDDR2s and they show epic screen shots of it on the back of the box! "
Wow, the HD5870 is cheaper than 295 and performs almost the same.
Sadly I won't be able to upgrade since I need to replace my current rig with better hardware.
HD5870 will be bottlenecked by the q6600@3.4 ? isn't it ?
:( thats what he said too :clap::rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by villa1n
There isn't a game out right now that the Q6600 can't keep up with the 5870 once the rez and AA are turned on when it comes to staying above your monitors refresh rate...Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatbs
Seriously...
The Q6 series, Q9 series, and AMD Phenom II's are all FINE for gaming. You don't need an i7 to play games just because it's the fastest thing out there. :up:
+1 :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
Very well said!
1920x1200 and the games are becoming GPU limited or are running way above 60FPS.
The only game you will need i7 or PhII on LN2 for is 3DMark06/05
My Phenom copes well with HD5870, really pleased so far, especially coming from HD4870CF 512MB!
So many people on here always seem to forget that Light...
From personal experience, I can say the Q6600 as low as 3.2ghz, or a phenom at 3.2-3.6 play games perfectly fine. Sure, I'm not playing with a 5870, but fact is if you want an idea of if the cpu will bottleneck you too far drop the resolution as far as it will possibly go with no AA/AF and see if the framerate is to low for you... If it's not, then your cpu isn't going to hold you back.
That is, assuming you have a card that can reach your cpu's limit of course... Obviously if you're trying crysis and you have an HD2900 you're still not going anywhere near what your cpu is capable of.
According to testing with the GTX 295 and cpu scaling, the only game that scaled more than like 2-4 fps at high resolution was UT3, and it was STILL over 100fps on all the quads IIRC. Only the old school A64x2's had issues staying when it came to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
I think you guys are still kind of high... a core 2 around 2.6ghz is enough to handle a lot... but why run a core 2 under 3ghz? :)
The point of it all was just that there's no need for someone with a Q6600 at 3.4 to upgrade to an i7 just to buy a 5870.
Fact is, any of those 3 processor series are still fine and dandy for gaming. I know I have no intention of upgrading from my q6600 any time soon.
AMD Demos Dual Cypress Graphics Card - Hemlock
http://vr-zone.com/articles/amd-demo....html?doc=7718
Depends purly on the engien, TF2 carves for every MHZ. Even with a 3.8ghz ci7 and that thing still scales with every mhz more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Revv23
priced below $500.... so the SINGLE cypress for 370 seems a bit steep.Quote:
Originally Posted by onethreehill
Except if they were talking about the 5850X2....
ah yes, the venerable TF2, the source engine, known for being a system crusher, and completely unplayable at anything below 50 FPS. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
http://i33.tinypic.com/16208sx.gif
ow... what now :shrug: it seems that at 2560x1600 4xAA/16xAF you'll get 50fps with a HD 4770...
so with a 2.4Ghz C2D you'll be quite safe here; no need for a faster CPU. you missed the point where even a slower CPU will still be fast enough, sure a faster CPU might give you higher FPS, but those are wasted;)
play on a 24+ player, best on a 32player server and then show me the min fps. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
You will get dips in the high 30s regardless of which resolution your using, guaranteed and not just for a second but rather quite long (a few seconds, as long as the action lasts).
Syntesitc testing of TF2 means jack:banana::banana::banana::banana:. :yepp:
like when people say they get 100fps in WoW, but that was done in the middle of no where, go to dalaran (or whatever the popular city is at that time) and you can see single digit fps on almost any hardware with max settings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
About tf2, core i7 helps a lot, set in launch options -threads 8 . By default tf2 will only use 3 with multi-core turned on. The engine can support up to 16.
Overclock i7, those blasted particles will never see it coming:D
tf2 is not usable as benchmark for modern graphics cards .. next revision of our vga benchmark setup will most probably not have tf2 anymore.. way too cpu limited
33 player server, 1920x1200 8xAA/16xAF, always >60FPS; avg, no dips under 40fps. And that with 9800GTX+Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
in the sense that it will keep on scaling with higher CPU speeds; but that doesn't necessarily mean anything;)Quote:
Originally Posted by W1zzard
if the lowest FPS you get with a entry level system is already playable, there's no return in investment if you go for a faster CPU:)
not if you have a 120hz monitor :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
ok, for that 0.1% go OC your i7 ;-)
Hmm... Well, then HD5870 also isn't good investment since you get playable FPS(>50) with GTX 260, 1920x1080 res. almost in every game according to techPowerUp. Some games (like Crysis) are unplayable but HD5870 also gets pretty low score there (<50 FPS).Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
Never ever remove FEAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by W1zzard
Has anyone seen the CPU scaling review with these 5000 series cards? The only one I saw that closely resembles that is this one and it shows that 5870 works equally well on both Deneb and Bloomfield at the same clocks(ie. there is no CPU bottleneck),while the dual GPU cards tend to scale a bit different than this.
Let me remind folks that many games use tick based netcode online and high framerates DO result in better game play online (regardless of refresh rate )Quote:
Originally Posted by natty
The Quake 3 engine ( for relevance COD through MW2 all use Quake code at their cores ) runs ideally at 125FPS. In source based titles 100tick rate is common in competitive servers / games ( all but Left 4 Dead basically ) Even though these "extra" frames can be argued as being wasted from a visually stand point, any remotely competitive Counter Strike / Day of Defeat / Team Fortress or Call of Duty player can and WILL notice a difference between 60 and 100+fps.
Now again this mainly relevant in a handful of multi player first person shooters. It obviously doesn't matter if all you play is single player or MMOs ( most don't benefit from higher framerate as far as netcode goes )
I just like to mention this as all this talk of frame rates in excess of 60 being wasted is often invalid. I for one can't play CS or DOD unless I'm getting 100fps constant ( it is just what I've been used to ever since 1.6 and 1.3 )
Exactly, the physics of Q3 feel so off below 125 FPS
+1 ~~~ I dont play less than 125 in any fps!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Chickenfeed
nope nope nope Doom 3 is the best
I'd listen to Wizzard
annnnd if you can see faster than 60fps...like your house(in the states) lights flicker @~60 let me know any supplments/vitamins your taking, that would be awesome
it's not about seeing the fps, it's the feeling; the usual smoothness you loose when the fps drops below a certain level... any hardcore online fps gamer knows what I'm talking about...and will notice directly via the game input/ouput that the game is acting up... don't argue bout that, there's a world of difference between being a single or muliplayer experience...
well said,extremely.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
Q3 is not even in the same category as CS or CoD... its a SPAM fps, not a tactical fps. Which is why most players who are good at tactics , not bunny hopping lazer parties would get owned by people who are. Its preference, but they are not the same just because they are first person..Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
Quake Spam Finals
cod4 clutch
Bunny hopping laser parties:ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by villa1n
but you can't deny that Q3 is a game of skill,you can get a kill over a far better player by luck in CS but in Q3 there's simply no chance.
And even if they ain't the same game it boils down to what you'll play as if it was the last game you got to play-
1)A game where your tactics were lost on someone who camped the whole round only to shoot you in the head as you went past him.
3)comboing someone with rocket and rail at spawn....... three times in a row.
I know what I'll choose.;)
But thats assuming your playing in Pubs.. versus scrims / matches.. which for the most part avoid camping noobs. Not denying it takes practice to become that good at q3..but thats the same with anything, 10 000 hours and your an expert, i m just saying, there is more mental tactics in games like cod4 which are more team based, have base of fire, rushing, flanking etc, q3 reminds me more of thunderdome, 2 men enter 1 man leaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamervivek
Edit: Dont want to Derail a Review Thread ^^ everyone has preferences, just wanted to point just because its a First Person view doesn't mean Game play is comparable.
yup; never said it was a good investment if you all play is TF2;)Quote:
Originally Posted by kl0012
definitely no skill involved; only spamming :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by villa1n
it's not like one has a tactical advantage to know the map, the spawnpoints, where the weapons are, how the physics work.
nor is it necessary to aim, just spam a random weapon somewhere near your opponent and you're golden.
:rolleyes:
first thing we see is the player spamming a grenade in a random direction.
yup, definitely "better" tactics that. and camping in one spot while other spam gunfire at your camp spot is not really... hmm... very interesting
Right on the money Sir. I've been saying this for I don't know how long but the whole "your eyes cant see bleh bleh blah blah" and " your refresh rate blah blah " crap always tends to get in the way of this fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeghoofd
More on topic with what I had said before about the netstack and the effects of higher framerates I was talking about engine specifics not subjective preferences on first person shooters, so for the sake of humanity leave the whole quake vs counter strike ect out of this discussion :) It is not relevant whatsoever to what we were discussing.
I am somewhat shocked at how CPU dependent TF2 is. It scales like garbage gpu wise yet still uses Valves lastest version of Source (dynamic lighting, multi threading, hdr, motion blur ect ) The strange thing to me is the fact that L4D seems to scale quite well on past and new hardware even though it uses a similar engine. Granted it is still CPU limited to a large extent. With TF2 I would have figured my 4870x2 would have trounced the GTX 260 I used for a short while but it did not what so ever where as in L4D it did by a considerable margin.
By the way are there any forum users who have their hands on a 5850 / 5870 that would like to add any of their own feedback ( as nice as most commercial reviews are sometimes its nice to get some user input as well I find ) I'm hoping we get some more 5850 reviews over the next week as the majority so far only focused on single 5870s ( I know there are some 5850 numbers but it would be ideal to have a healthy review sample ) My biggest pet peeve with most reviews is they are always doing AVG framerates. While this is an important factor knowing the minimum is so much more important to me. Ideally what I'd like to see from more reviews is charts, min, avg and possibly max ( not as important ) at 4 standard resolutions ( being 1280x1024, 1680x1050, 1920x1200 and 2560x1600 ) I do realize adding charts and minimum numbers does require more time and effort as well as space on the review pages but it would make most reviews go from a pass to a great. I see a lot of things I like from done by particular sites / reviewers but never all of them in the same place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
Thats not skill. Thats experience. Theres a difference. Stop thinking you're so much better because you've been doing one thing so much longer than someone else.
That's like in an rpg...the highest ranked character goes against the lowest ranked character. They CAN have equal skill, and the lower ranked character can have higher physical mental skill... but the higher RANKED character will always win because of his experience (literally) and his points and armor.
I repeat, its NOT skill... its experience... I have VERY good shooting skills but I get decimated by people I know cannot shoot as well as I can in quake.
Its experience...you're not all that skilled jumping around bunny hopping... its a skill in and of itself... but actual fps skill is not part of that...
obviously he needs to do a multigpu setup with a 512mb 4730 and a 512mb 4870 to equal the 1gb 9600.:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by villa1n
So you are saying that Quake 3 would be considered a tactical game? lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
There are things you need to know, but spawnpoints etc, respawning, is not a "tactical" game by definition alone.
And you are misusing the word spam... In that video he s making a calculated throw to where a possible enemy is.. CAL players don't spam, in the sense pub noobs do, and one nade does not qualify it as such....
TeamDeathmatch style games do take a skill gained through experience, but so does any game. The distinction i m trying to make is that at a high level, tactical fps require you to be aware of the map, teammates and enemy positions, because the more fixed movement patterns, you cant jump 50 feet spraying lazer beams , and call that comparable to peeking walls, throwing smoke for cover, and moving as a unit. Memorizing isn't the same as Cognition.
Its like in GoldenEye to take fps way back.. archives... proximity mines, by planting proxes everywhere on spawn points and making a route i only know and can walk to ammo refills, i could win every time, i wouldnt consider that skill, i would consider that experience. As anyone can do that.
Anyways enough thread derail..
More info on 5850xfire! :D
Like a rubric cube there is a pattern that works and solves the objective.Quote:
Originally Posted by villa1n
However lets say a human being catches on that you use this pattern and tries to exploit it. Then you have to come up with a different pattern in order to be successful.
Trust me, we all do that.
BTW can a simple overclock help mitigate the stuttering?
Or Vsync?
I consider for example bf2 as a combination between tactical and skill based shooter.
You got a small group vs a whole team that also has groups.
You have more options in how to play that than pure kill skill.
You can draw fire on yourself, let the group m8 kill the opponent, you can revive and resume game spawn, as a game that allows teamplay and skills, bf2 has no competition.
call of duty isnt cutting it.
however, looking forward a 5890 tho ;)
Has anyone seen a 5850 review yet? I don't mean the simulated one
The Battlefield series one-ups Q3 in gameplay and physics. Every bullet has it's own mass, speed, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
And YES, these types of games are a joy to play leaving other FPS games lacking.
There is at least one other game like q3, Half life Adrenalin gamer. In that difference is usually much higher than for example that 40:-4.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
Sure it is. Right from the very start.. u spawn, and that very moment u need to plan a route to the possible best items according to what direction u heard ur opponent, what options he/she has and how to counter them, and do it fast, and.. Oh well good old times...:DQuote:
So you are saying that Quake 3 would be considered a tactical game? lol.
Yeah, that is what I am looking for, too, but nothing yet...Quote:
Originally Posted by Glow9
29 is the day for 5850
dammit... i couldnt wait for the 2gb model... powercolor 5870 on its way....:shakes:
THe CoD franchise also allows the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
The same applies to any game out there. Put a Q3 player on a CoD map and you'll get the same result. CoD1&2 especially are far harder to master than the newer carebear CoDs but that still is more difficult to master.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
You're just making things up if you think transitioning from Q3 to any other FPS makes you a god on them, while going the other way you would be a noob. Almost an elitist statement in fact.
when is 2gb coming out ?
Don't try to be condescending, you know nothing of my skill level and I know nothing of yours. For someone who says he is such a star at the game, yet thinks everyone else is crap, just goes to show you are probably living in a surreal world of your own. So please, drop the e-penis crap, I don't believe you and I doubt anyone else does.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
All FPS games require the gamer to know the layout of the game, the mechanics of the game and have twitch reactions. If you believe that you have to be a higher skill to play Q3, than say CS or CoD, then I suspect you are probably a med gamer and haven't played many games in a dedicated team.
Twitch gaming does not equal skill and in your case, public gaming certainly does not equal skilled gaming.
come on now LOR boy, perhaps you would like to back up your claims of a Q3 player is better than any other type of player? or that a Q3 player can walk into a CS team or CoD team and be 'pro'Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
I know you can't back it up because you are probably a pub player of medium skill. I'm not making a personal attack on you, just as you are not by calling people average skill if they are not a pro Q3 player.
I may not be a pro player but I've played against some of the best in the CoD franchise and been at the top of the ED league and CB-uk league in CoD1, Cod2 and Cod4. So, I can speak with experience from that stand point.
I don't competitively game anymore but I know from past experience that Q3, CS, CSS and CoD are all games that have players of equal skill. No one game makes a player better.
I would prefer to have a CS player in a S&D match with me, that a Q3 player as the game type is far similar. In Q3, I would prefer a UT player at my side, than a CS player due to similar game types.
So basically, you're a pub hero Q3 fan boy. That's basically what you are saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOE
You have no evidence to back up this weird claim that a Q3 player is greater than all, just your pub play.
Where as I'm happy to say all gamers of FPS games are basically of equal skill and will be able, with time, to transition over to a new game. with varying degrees of success.
I back my claims up with playing competitively in the past in a few games, where you base it on playing q3 at pub level?
I've nothing against public play and I'm sure you're dead good but let's be honest, there are quite a few people on this forum who play in CAL and I would suspect that everyone of these would back me up compared to your wild "Q3 gamers are the best" fanboyism.
Enough with the offtopic imo. :D
5850 reviews should be coming out soon, according to FUD they are going to ship them soon.
watch it loe get his friends... :rofl:
Thats the worse way to make a point... ever... :shakes:
fact: people who have been playing FPS since Q3 and CS (before source) probably have too much experience with FPS and are probably good. lets end the offtopic as its very moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rusty
hopefully soon! i'm holding off untill then
Must agree on that Q3 pro players are pretty awsome, as an avarage quaker, and I have played since even before QW got into this world.. but only as a loneranger :) even after 10 years of q3, mostly RA3, i get my butt so kicked by players i cant believe my eyes sometimes, have never stopped playing ra3, its the most fun and intense game ever made IMO :) you can only get better! i would like to see print of your games if there will be any :) with /stats :P
And yes, this 5850? must be really a bang buck? looks like my upgrade after 3 years of my 8800GT :) 5850 beating a 285... seems goood :)
HI2U ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa
Any specs of 5890 yet ?
Hint:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1599/hd5850avail.png
That's when :rolleyes:
hehehe heey Detox :) Im "Phanatic" :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Det0x
fun to see you here? into hardware aswell? :)
lightman is that dabs?
no, it's novatechQuote:
Originally Posted by Origin_Unknown
also guys if your thinking about getting a 5850 it might be worth it to wait for the 5770 and get two of them if the performance rumours are right and it's cheap enough.
in just $ per frame, the upper 5700s and low 5800s gotta be better than the upper 5800s, but who knows what kind of price drops we will see in the next few months. after the dx11 introductory shock value is over, and after the new nvidia cards come out. prices can be all over the place between now and january. so im just gonna sit back and wait patientlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Helloworld_98
There is a difference between the games you mention and Q3: in most if not all of the games there is "luck": you can spray and get a headshoot (and this pisses me off in DOD:S, there are plenty of random weapons), whereas luck doesn't exist in Q3, and thats why everybody can frag in CSS and DODS no matter who is playing against you but this will NEVER happen in Q3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motiv
Yea, sure, tactics, teamplaying..those are something that a Q3 may lack at all, but the most difficult skill to get is aim, and you won't show a Q3 pro player how to aim, deffinitely. That is the big difference: it doesn't matter how good is your technique if you miss the first shot, the Q3 wont. It's really simple in that aspect, the aim you get by playing Q3 you don't get it by playing any other game and aim is the principal skill in FPS. Sure, if you are not an aimer you have to be something else in order to succed...but most situations in a FPS are done by aiming, so you are in disadvantatge there.
I've been playing FPS for loooooong time and consider myself able to learn fast and to be an above-average player really fast...except for Quake and similar games: I'm too :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing slow for those games...