nice o/c Bowman. what memory has your radeon ?
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nice o/c Bowman. what memory has your radeon ?
Hey Bowman,
Watch out for the weather....hope it misses...and that you and yours remain safe....and also my prommie...lol...
Have a good week...
Phasor
well i am sure by now,most have been wondering what happened to me,as from the PM's i have got in my box.
i will try and anser them but if i miss any just pm me again.
Some of you already know,but the ones who dont,I live in the state of Virginia,USA.and we had a bad Hurricane hit here end of last week.so power went down with the trees.as my power came back Saturday,i was one of the few.75% of my area is still witout power.so i have been busy helping family and friends.as today was the first day i went back to working on systems and benching a little.as i was tried of looking at trees down.
so if anyone was mad because i missed replying to a pm or question in here,now you know where i was.:)
i hope to be back up to speed in a couple of days
Back to work!!!
:cord: :explode:
ha ha:DQuote:
Originally posted by TheDude
Back to work!!!
:cord: :explode:
did burn up the r9800 pro tonight.and a couple other things:(
but before the r9800 dumped on me it set all of the AMD world records....:D (except for the hammer of course)
look at my new sig.:D
edit:i though mickeymouse had a 7881 which beats me but i cannt find it.all thou i only made 2 runs in 3dmark 03 before i turned my attention to 3d2001se.then i burned up the card:(
Damn man! No wonder you burned it up! You kicked some ass! Nice job!
:toast:
Damned nice scores - see you're giving JC's old chip a very nice ride! Excellent work bro. :toast:
yea got is rock solid,no rejects at all on the orb,man i played with nature today for hours and found a sweet spot.ran 5 or 6 23800 to 24002 score's in row over a couple of hours this afternoon.Quote:
Originally posted by WxChaser
Damned nice scores - see you're giving JC's old chip a very nice ride! Excellent work bro. :toast:
but when i decied to go back to 3dmark03 to work on it.made one pass with bad tearing.and that was it.....gone:(
i am letting it set hopping it will heal overnight,i spent hours beginning of last week working the volt mods out and getting just the right voltage.some benches i had to turn down the voltage to get higher speeds.real touchy at that speed.
btw happy bday bowman :) hopefully u can come to Aus soon in the future, I need my new Mach 2 souped up :)
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Mr Boman!:toast:
& i need my mach I souped up.:bows:
bowman , could you please answer my pm?
And happy bd of course ;)
Happy Birthday bowman
thanks guys:D
I apreciate the warm birthday wishes.as i havent told a person here at home.so maybe they will forget.me and birthdays dont usally get along.
but again thanks.
by the way.....r9800 is alive....was this morning early,i had to know if it was dead dead..
so i cranked up the cooler for 15 minutes and started it up.it ran..:D
so i may get to play some more.
whats the highest you can post with that 1700+ bowman? can you hit 3.2ghz with cpufsb?
Glad to hear the 9800 is alive! That's a nice Birthday present! :D
Happy birthday Bowman :D
HB, B.
Soon, you'll be as old as me..:)
FT.
[I'm a poet, an' don't know it. :)]
Happy Birthday, Bowman. :toast:
Many happy returns, mate!
As Dude said, nice Lazarus you got there.
Keep up the good work.
Can't wait for your system to be finished!
sorry i didnt catch that earlier herefishy. well acording to the book i got here in front of me.. useing 1/2 hp bristols suction should be 0 to 1.5 lbs. and head should be180lbs. thats with a r-22 1st stage..... nobody uses r-170 anymore, in fact so-low is the only manufacturer i know of that ever has. this book is a 1982 so-low tech book, lol.
here maybe this'll help
http://www.ul.com/refrigeration/alternative.html
hmmmm maybe not...
I have a Harris book here with R22 and ethane, and also some P/T charts for several cascade refrigerants. What's the question?
Hi Gary,
many posts ago, I had suggested that Bowman use R-170 in his cascade, because I thought that once, I saw a cyclinder in one of his pics that he commented on as high-dollar gas (with a blue cap - valve protector) that I thought was R-170. Maybe it was R-23, I don't know.
I think that is what the Cap'n was responding to.
PS.... using the quote feature would serve well when responding sometimes. ;)
harris environmental? what year?
i dont need no stinking quotes. im lucky my spelling resembles english
1963Quote:
harris environmental? what year?
lol 20 yrs b4 cc was born...
keep on bringing, esp wrt to autos..
]JR[
How's you cascade going bowman ? Will there be a über presentation this weekend ? :D
Well no have had the time,huricane killed me and set me back.:(Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
How's you cascade going bowman ? Will there be a über presentation this weekend ? :D
i do have a couple of prometias to work on this weekend,and as this is a free weekend for me(chrildren go to there mom's)depending on who i go out with(small problem with me....I like women)as to how much time i put into my projects....LOL:D
but if i get all the evaperators brased up(which i have a updated design from baker to install)and then while the prometia's are pulling vacuums or test running i can get back to the cascade.
its not that hard to finish it up,just i like my stuff to run first time,so i will spend more time in fitting and testing .with any luck i could have the high side finished in a day.:D
nice sig bowman!
well i am am sure someone wants to see the latest baker blocks...
and beside it...look what i have....a very large surface area copper block.i may try and work it with one of bakers this weekend.this is sweet as far as the amount of surface area it would have for refrigerant to pull heat from,,,,i love it...cost me thou but it may be what we need.testing will prove yes or no.
thanks:DQuote:
Originally posted by JToolz
nice sig bowman!
i have been wanting one for a while ,so i sat down in paint shop pro and made me one.came out ok .i am pleased:D
o almost forgot...
did push the radeon higher tonight,got the core to 562 @2.0v memory is on the list next.already beat my 3d2001 score with a 24105 but erractic so wouldnt publish,i have also pushed the agp to 70mhz that is what caused the bench to be erractic and not post..i even got the nature even farther with the increased core speed.just have to go back and reset the agp and rebench again for a while
Baker's new blocks are SWEET! Worth the wait. :D
O Yea i knew you would like seeing them...they are nice..Top Quality...Baker is the man....:DQuote:
Originally posted by TheDude
Baker's new blocks are SWEET! Worth the wait. :D
Thanks 4 the compliment Bowman and TheDude. Im glad you are back benching again.Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
O Yea i knew you would like seeing them...they are nice..Top Quality...Baker is the man....:D
baker18
I asked it one ona PM to baker18 and ill ask it again publicly. Did you consider sanding bakers evaps to increase the surface area.
This isnt the best example but on a MC462 hsf i had a 5C temp. drop after sanding
berkut...do you mean sanding the face of the evaperator for better cpu contact? or sandblasting the inside to give it a rougher surface to aid in heat transfer?Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
I asked it one ona PM to baker18 and ill ask it again publicly. Did you consider sanding bakers evaps to increase the surface area.
This isnt the best example but on a MC462 hsf i had a 5C temp. drop after sanding
I personally hand lap the face for better cpu contact after i brase the head together,but not before because it is a waste as the heat from brasing can warp and slightly roughen the face.so i wait until after it passes the pressure testing.which i turn up over 300psi.sometimes 350 to 400psi
i mean the inside, sanding the face would be idiotic...
sanding increases the surface really nice
i also lap my evap after brazing, theres no sense doing it before like you said (and i cover it in ketchup to reduce the copper oxides etc)
what kind of HSF is that ? Doesent remind me of any specific GSF... How do you plan to spray the freon inside it ? You will use a needle valve / cap tube / injector ?
Im going to use a injector inside my evap and it will be a pin radiator and the injector i will use is from a ford escort rs, a startup injector
well it is a part of a new chipset cooler i found.disasembled it and got the finned block...Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
what kind of HSF is that ? Doesent remind me of any specific GSF... How do you plan to spray the freon inside it ? You will use a needle valve / cap tube / injector ?
Im going to use a injector inside my evap and it will be a pin radiator and the injector i will use is from a ford escort rs, a startup injector
no i am not working on a injecter since i have spent months perfecting the cap tube lenghts i think i have it almost perfected.
it will be a flooded design just as all the baker blocks i am using.
havent desided on weather it will spray in the center or from the edge.since this will be on the cascade,it will be sitting flat on the board with overhead hosing so the liquid refrigerant will stay in the evaperator longer.
also with the triple evaperator manifolds i have been designing i am perfecting the subcooling even more.and with one of my new fluke meters i can measure all types of temps at once ,from suction line temps in a couple of areas to condensor in and out temps.as i am now designing the systems to be adjusted by the temp reading,saturated temps is the best way to get the most effecient use of a system.
the cpu block will be a combination of baker's and the finned square heat sink.made as one evaperator.as i get closer i will post some pics.
Sounds like you are really getting everything fine tuned to the max! It's all coming together nicely....all those hours of hard work are paying off now. You do good work Adam. :toast:
Damn :slobber: you read my mind :O
your some kind of Jane Grey or Charles Xavier ? :D
Your gonna cool only the cpu with that cascade or will it be a tripple evap system ? Or a duallie like im planning ?
i probably know how you will subchill and supply the freon to your injectors if we do almost everything the same (or at least think alike if your not a telepatic) :slobber:
how did you think up the injector mounting and leak proff'ing ? Im planning to use 2 teflon orings (on the injectors head) and a "flare" fitting made of a Pb (dunno the english name- its from the mendeleyev table) shaped as a ring, like a seal used in water blocks
It's lead Ber ;) Pb= lead
Btw, How is your machine, getting any closer to the finish line?
thx, i forgot :(
i finnaly finished the I stage...
this weekend ill make some more progress, now that i know the I stage doesent leak (it didnt so far :slobber: so i hope it wont) ill start finishing everything up this weekend, i have to insulate the exchanger, mount the II stages compressor, the relief tank, oil separator has to arrive... few things have to be made but since i know it works- it will be like a thunderbolt ;]
well the cascade will only cool the CPU and GPU,no chipset this time,i really dont see the need on a intell but it will be cooled sub-0.Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
Your gonna cool only the cpu with that cascade or will it be a tripple evap system ? Or a duallie like im planning ?
i probably know how you will subchill and supply the freon to your injectors if we do almost everything the same (or at least think alike if your not a telepatic) :slobber:
how did you think up the injector mounting and leak proff'ing ? Im planning to use 2 teflon orings (on the injectors head) and a "flare" fitting made of a Pb (dunno the english name- its from the mendeleyev table) shaped as a ring, like a seal used in water blocks
i am trying to work into the cascade a small liquid heat interchager that will proberly pull from the return on the high side compressor.that should keep the chipset cold enought....yea i like making complex toys:D
the manifold has been completly redesigned even from the latest one,as i find in real life opperation it works a little differant than i planned.it will be a twin feed and return.
as far as sealing on the inject..stay away from the teflon bud,it is going to lead i tell you.i use a special sealant even on every flare fitting i use to insure no leaks.and no more oring fitting anywhere close to the evaperators as i find they seam to leak at extreeme cold temps and then they will pull in air if they run under a vacuum.as the oring tends to shrink and loose surface tension letting it leak.
the flare fitting i use i order special copper gaskets to go between the sealing surface and then i apply a sealing compound that will fill any void in the fitting and make sure of no leakage under extreeme tempertures.
What is that special sealant ?
Is it possible to use it as a "glue" ? The injectors head is ~ 2cm long and 7mm in diameter, could i just drill a 7.x mm hole in it, apply some of that magic sealant and tada, it doesent leak (the injector is mounted with screws so the only thing it does is keep freon inside)?
Give me a short period of time and i will find you a spec and picture of the product:DQuote:
Originally posted by berkut
What is that special sealant ?
Is it possible to use it as a "glue" ? The injectors head is ~ 2cm long and 7mm in diameter, could i just drill a 7.x mm hole in it, apply some of that magic sealant and tada, it doesent leak (the injector is mounted with screws so the only thing it does is keep freon inside)?
:D
is it a sealant similar to that used to seal testing mainfolds ?
btw. i have one leak- a leaking low side service valve :X
ok as i have used most of these differant numbers,there isnt much differance in any of them i could every see.but i know they work,i have used them for years from 10,000psi hyd hose fitting to 35psi fuel hoses on 600hp drag cars.
here is the pic of the product
here is the part numbers and specs
and wich one u use ?
the one with teflon looks interesting
well i used to use the one with teflon part # 80632,but we got a part # supersession from my supplier now all i get is #59235 high temp sealant.I cannt see a bitt of differance other than thickness.still applies and works the same for me.:DQuote:
Originally posted by berkut
and wich one u use ?
the one with teflon looks interesting
Errrrrr.... with all due respect.... the threads on the flare nut have absolutesly nothing to do with the airtightness of the refrigeration system. The threads are not exposed to nor directly contain the pressure.Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
as far as sealing on the inject..stay away from the teflon bud,it is going to leaK i tell you.i use a special sealant even on every flare fitting I use
:stick:
The pressure difference (seal) is maintained by the compression of the flared copper against the conical surface (male flare) that it is seated against. Any thread treatment should be directed to preventing the flare nut from loosening. i.e., the flare nut does not leak, the flare does. ;)
In the case of a flared fitting being applied in a situation that exposes the connection to extreme cold and moisture, the primary concern is the expansion of freezing water within the mated threaded surfaces, which can actually push the copper out of the throat of the flare nut, and straighten out the flare (I've seen it before on frozen "endless merchandiser" applications).
If you are (reluctantly) forced to make a flare connection in a moisture-laden, low temperature application, you would want to procure a special flare nut, which has "ice grooves" machined into the threads, somewhat splitting through the threads as they spiral in their typical arrangement. This allows the water to expand out through these machined grooves, instead of exerting the hydraulic force of the expansion of the water against the nut and the copper that is secured.
please refernce pg. 2:
http://www.ecopeland.com/Literature/...TI_S_35024.pdf
:)
Errrrrr.... with all due respect, please note that the threads being sealed (in the attachments of the advertisements of the product) are not flare connection threads.... they are pipe threads. Pipe thread conenctions and flare connections are different.
Pipe threads actually create the seal. Pipe threads are tapered, whereas when the connection is tightened, the seal actually gets "tighter". Such a connection is recommended to be accompanied by a "sealant", to help ensure the integrity of the connection.
A flare accomplishes it's seal by compressing the flared surface of a malleable metal (copper) against a another surface of a conical (similar) configuration (the threads are NOT tapered, they are SAE [or equivalent] threads). It is the compressionof the malleable metal by the retaining hardware (flare nut) that creates the "airtight" seal. Not the threads of the retaining hardware (nut).
Bowman, have you ever come across a leak on a flared connection, that the bubbles from your soap leak detectant emerged from the end of the nut, away from the threads? ... at the throat of the nut......
... think about it. :)
no flares!!! no fittings!!!! all solid sweat!!!! for the love of god dont use either for a second stage. i leave a sealed system on everything i work on unlesss i gota have it
:worship:Quote:
Originally posted by captaincascade
no flares!!! no fittings!!!! all solid sweat!!!! for the love of god dont use either for a second stage. i leave a sealed system on everything i work on unlesss i gota have it
ROFLMAO !!!!
I'll drink to that. :toast:
BEFORE i jump some asses....LOL..
who in the hell even said i used the sealant for the threads..... read read read.......damm do i have to spell everything out in here and use pictures to show everything.
aaaaaaaaaggggggggggg......i am having a very bad day at work....
i will post some pictures later for the mentally challaged....
well i have to go home and pull a assembly book on flare fitting i guess as i dont have a copy here at work,
i guess i wull have to give a class on assembly of fitting's.and yes i do know that because i am one of the few certified parker techs in this side of the country.
i bet no one even knows there is a copper gsk to be used when you connect a 45 degree flare fitting in a vacuum application.as i have a bag of them.
o well .....i will calm down i hope later.....i dont mean to vent but i am close to walking out of my job today.
i will be back later on when i can think calmly....
I think the more benificial aspect of doing this is that it would increase the Reynolds number of the flowing refrigerant thus incresing turbulance and reduce boundry layer effect, which in turn leads to better heat transfer between metal surface and refrigerant which is one of the weak links in the heatpath chain, this would possibly lead to lower temps. if you can do it then I think it would be worth it. I have a HS much like the finned one in the picture but it has a channel through the center of the fins for the securing bracket.Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
Did you consider sanding bakers evaps to increase the surface area.
Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
.....for the mentally challanged....
Now, now...... that's not very nice. :shakes:
Cap'n, I think Bowman is referring to us. :(
But before you (potentially) shoot yourself in the foot, Bowman... check this out....
http://www.applianceaid.com/gasconnector.html ... states:
"WARNING - Do not use pipe thread sealant or Teflon® tape on any flare ends because you will not obtain a leak-free seal. Keep flare end of fitting and flare seat of connector nut free of grease, oil, pipe thread sealant and Teflon® tape."
http://www.ceam.org/2611.pdf pg. 18, states:
".... The flared joint couplings shall be made up without the use of jointing compounds......"
http://www.gvii.net/dlralt/instructi...s/FM_II_M2.pdf p.12 states:
"...Do not use sealant. This is a flare fitting and sealant will hinder its ablity to seal...."
________________________________________________
You see, by applying foreign substances to the mating surfaces of a flare connection, you are actually degrading the quality and effectiveness of the connection. I have actaully observed this phenomenon on several occasions (leakage) when an errant technician applies substances to the flare surfaces.
:CTF:
Now don't pick on Bowman. He's having a bad day. :(
Tell ya what. Let's pretend we've never heard of copper gaskets, so he can edumacate us. That'll cheer him up. :D
do you know why no one reconmends sealant on the flare suface?
#1 one cause of all contanimation into a system is mis use of sealant.not that it doesnt help...
i have more than what you have shown....i am a dealer for sake i have seen it all.
but it is the over appying of sealant that is the blame.
MIS USE.over usage.
i uderstand all the manufacturers reasons for saying no.heck i dont even tell many people,but if used correctly it works great....
LIKE I SAID IF APPLIED CORRECTLY.:D
yea i am calming down some....it want'nt you guys.
WORK GOT ME.
but i know a lot of techs that unless they were shown in a class.. it wont work...i do understand where you are coming from.
just being that handling hoses that have to withstand pressures close to 10,000psi on a daily basis....i have seen alot of differant ways of doing something.and i have found that the sealant works great if applied CORRECT to a flare will fill in small voids in the metal to help seal out the possablity of leakage.
by the way....the worst sealing of a fitting is tapered thread ,then flare 45 degree,then 37degree flare,and then o ring boss is next and then flat face oring for the highest pressure rating.
but for the low pressure a refrigeration uses a 45 flare is fine...NO CONNECTIONS at all is always the best,but sometimes that isnt a option.so we put up with flare fitting...;)
hehe, 2 words will be sufficient: better performance :D:D:DQuote:
Originally posted by Russell_hq
I think the more benificial aspect of doing this is that it would increase the Reynolds number of the flowing refrigerant thus incresing turbulance and reduce boundry layer effect, which in turn leads to better heat transfer between metal surface and refrigerant which is one of the weak links in the heatpath chain, this would possibly lead to lower temps. if you can do it then I think it would be worth it. I have a HS much like the finned one in the picture but it has a channel through the center of the fins for the securing bracket.
I forgot to ask- bowman, will you use a pressure relief tank in your cascade ?
Im sure Bowman knows what hes doing. He has the most impressive built triple evaperator system in the world today.
Yeah... but we still get to pick on him once in a while. :D
well got the latest batch of evaperators done today,almost anyways.stayed at work for a while thismorning and used the cnc and finished the latest.
here is a pic of the evap in all the pieces,it has bakers block on the upper half with the high surface area block on the bottom
here is another pic with cover on block
Man....I find that strangely arousing! :smileysex
Beautiful block!!!! :D
block assembled
this is what a evap block looks like after it is brased.and i did 4 today so here they are,i need to clean the outside later and pressure test one tonight.....Yea dude i am pressure testing yours tinight i hope.
forgot the pic didnt i ...LOL
Cool...mine is one of the middle two...great job!:D
how do you plan to connect a injector to that evap ?
it looks very nice, do you plan to run it fully flodded ? or do you plan to cool it with a mist from the injector ?
well injector is not going in this one,much more testing needed.since i have put in the hours on cap tube sizing on these small heat loads i am staying with what i know works well.Quote:
Originally posted by berkut
how do you plan to connect a injector to that evap ?
it looks very nice, do you plan to run it fully flodded ? or do you plan to cool it with a mist from the injector ?
the evaperator is a special design...hope it works.but one of the major problems i see with evaperator designs is surface area.and as in my many evaperator designs.maze designs,multilayer blocks,open chamber.they all worked well some better than others.
i still am a firm believer that the freon needs more time in the evaperator to do what it suposed to do.remove heat.
2 things help that.
long lenghts of channels giving it time to evaperate before it is completly out from the evaperator.
and more surface area(which does the same thing sorta)or make the surface area you have more able to transfer the heat more readily...more effecient designs....:D
over the last year and a half i have many designs i have tried and tested...i know alot of people give me there advice..which i love to hear...but intill the evaperator block is in real life being tested and ran ...they can only guess what it will do..
thats where i have tested more blocks and have learned from the timeless small details i try to see improvements in.
right now i still believe maze design blocks are the way to go.with all the differant angles,they do a great job or causing the refrigerant to break up and more easily transfer its cooling power to the block.
and right now the baker blocks are no doubt the best you can buy right now.
but me and baker are constantly working on new designs.
now is no differant.
the latest block i have done.may or may now work.but like i said before......unless you build it and try you will never know.and i do make a bunch.
i know alot of people have copied my designs,and thats ok.coping is the best for of flatery there is:D
now this block will have more surface area than any single block built before it.completely differant.it is a flooded design that i drilled and made passages in the fins of the first layer to allow the refrigerant to completly cover the lower stage.
then the remaining will push into the baker maze designed upper section,adding the tubalance,and adding to the time in the evaperator.
the block has lots of mass to help in handling spikes in heat loads.
the refirgerant will enter the block from the top to the center and spray into the center section of fins over the cpu die.then spreading outwards and filling the chamber.
now this block is only for benching as it will not work that well in a upright position,to work like i designed it to ,it will have to sitting flat down on the cpu,to fill the lower chamber with refrigerant.
i just hope it works like i think it will.:D
almost forgot,it has taken me a while to finish them other than pressure testing and final polishing which i do after to hose is connected.but here is the cleaned up evaperators.
ooh copper goodness!! i love those blocks! when is the true test coming up?
Bowman,
You do good work my man.
baker18
well soon i hope.i need to finish some friends stuff first.Quote:
Originally posted by Pimpsho
ooh copper goodness!! i love those blocks! when is the true test coming up?
ok i have been getting one evap ready for testing for pressure.:D
i saw a few days ago someone wondered if bakers blocks could handle high pressure of a cascade.well i knew they would ,working with real high pressure stuff for a living i knew these little evap would work fine.
but when i assembled the block to my pressure rig,that connects with flare fitting,i got a bubble leak at the fitting.this leak accured at just over 200psi and was just a bubble every second or 2.
now thes would go unnoticeable by most since a normal system you would think would go that high,but at rest with a hot compressor that was just turned off,can and will exceed these sometimes in the evaperator.
now i knew i had properly tighten the fitting but i checked again,tight.
i remove them and checked the sealing surface,thats was fine.hooked up again and leak at simerlar pressure again.
now i normally do use a sealant on them but i was just doing a test and didnt worry about it since it was only a small test.i removed it again and this time used my sealant.
and now it is holding at close to 450psi and no leak.this is why i use this sealant.under extreeme contitions it works great.and this is how it sould look properly used.and when you remove the fitting there will be no contamiation to the inside tube.
but here is how it looks prperly used.just barly covering the face of the flare.
i do not like leaks and if i have to use a flare i will use this way to seal it.
ok this pic shows the extreeme pressure i put bakers block under.shown in my sink which i summerge all my pressure tests to see bubbles.it is handling 450psi just fine...
i will let it set overnight and then i can use it being sure it if perfectly sealed.
Bowman,
I really like the look of that new block, but do you think it can transfer enough heat to the 'Baker' section? The out casing looks a little thin and the fins only touch a small portion of the top of the casing.
If Baker's block was recessed through the casing onto the fins, it might transfer a bit more heat.
well you cannt see by the picture,and i didnt think about taking a pic of the bottom of bakers block.Quote:
Originally posted by Nico
Bowman,
I really like the look of that new block, but do you think it can transfer enough heat to the 'Baker' section? The out casing looks a little thin and the fins only touch a small portion of the top of the casing.
If Baker's block was recessed through the casing onto the fins, it might transfer a bit more heat.
i used the lath at work to mill flat the bottom and turned a lip into the bottom so the top and bottom seat into one another.the bottom is flat sitting on the fins almost.proberly brased to them.the silverflow i use will pull to any gap.
but i am using the block to give the refrigerant more time in the block thats all.
when i was brasing it ,i was supprised how well the heat moved to the top as i didnt apply much heat to the top,just the bottom and side.the heat moved pretty well.as this is normally a good way to tell when you try and brase them.
but testing it the only real way.and i proberly will test it on one of my units before the cascade see's it....i like to test test test.
but then again it pays off.:D
well my man i have great made evaperators from you to work with.so the rest is easy.......:DQuote:
Originally posted by baker18
Bowman,
You do good work my man.
baker18
Those new blocks look like a work of art. Nice job baker :toast:
Keep up the good work Bowman :thumbsup:
well forgot to tell,i had to brake down and get me a new vacuum pump.man i hated that......money.
but my old one wasnt pulling a good enough vacuum for me anymore and i know the cascade will require i low micron rating to acieve a good dry system.:D
looked at a bunch and got another robinair,it will pull a 20 micron rating..that should work,didnt need as large of one but for the price i got a 6cfm.it was as cheap as the smaller ones.and i have had good luck with robinair before....stick with what you have faith in i always say.
guys you dont need but a small one 1.5cfm will be fine for these small systems,but for me 6cfm will help me on some large systems when i nned it.
Vacuum pumps are sensitive to oil cleanliness and oil level. You might want to try a few oil changes on that old pump to see if it can be brought back to top condition.
yep you are right.if you followed the oem specs it says change the oil in the pump after every pull down ...i think thats what i remember,but hey i dont know anyone who does.Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Vacuum pumps are sensitive to oil cleanliness and oil level. You might want to try a few oil changes on that old pump to see if it can be brought back to top condition.
what brand do you like gary,i meant to get a old mans oppinion before i ordered mine,but i forgot.
by the way,the old man thing..well i have learned most what i know from old men, who since i paid attention to them when they were talking,told me lots of tricks...funny how if you keep you mouth shut and listen to the older guys how much you can learn..
but then again it seams most young guys try to tell the old men how to do it anymore.
but then again what is old,and what is young.depends on the person i guess...i feal like i am getting old...but not as old as you gary...LOL
by the way...thanks old man.:D
I like the J/B pumps, but Robinair would be my second choice.
Old people know more about being young than young people know about being old. :D
I learned that from my mom, who can still kick my butt. It's all relative... LOL
well you know i almost when with a J/B...but didnt feal like changing brands...and the J/B's only pull to 25 microns the new Robinairs pull down to 20 microns and the yellowjacket has one that pulls to 15 micron.Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
I like the J/B pumps, but Robinair would be my second choice.
but i have never used a yellow jacket..wasnt sure about that without knowing someone who had one.
Regarding the finned evap -
I'm not being disrespectful or anything but isn't the second level maze a waste of time?
Since there there's 3 seperate pieces of copper to the cooling section of the block (base/fins, fin cover, maze level) it would create a signifigant thermal interface between them, hence minimal amounts of heat being transfered to the maze level from the fins. Even the use of rather pure silve solder would create a large thermal resistance between the pieces.
e.g fins -> silver thermal junction -> fin cover -> silver thermal junction -> maze level
You would lose alot of freon cooling the block rather than the processor.
Could the left over liquid coming out of the evap could be better used for subcooling?
well good question..:DQuote:
Originally posted by fr0st
Regarding the finned evap -
I'm not being disrespectful or anything but isn't the second level maze a waste of time?
Since there there's 3 seperate pieces of copper to the cooling section of the block (base/fins, fin cover, maze level) it would create a signifigant thermal interface between them, hence minimal amounts of heat being transfered to the maze level from the fins. Even the use of rather pure silve solder would create a large thermal resistance between the pieces.
e.g fins -> silver thermal junction -> fin cover -> silver thermal junction -> maze level
You would lose alot of freon cooling the block rather than the processor.
Could the left over liquid coming out of the evap could be better used for subcooling?
but i have found over the many i have built it dosnt work like the text book says.the more mass helps alot in a evap block i have found,even just adding mass without passages can help on a small evaperator .but the cooling of the block itself doesnt take away any from the cooling of the cpu.actally it helps.
once the evaperator is dropped to a opperating temp it doesnt draw anymore from the system because it should be fully insulated.
i can give you a example of one of my tests.one of my systems can start without the compressor running and then start up the compressor and catch up and cool the cpu.this is only possable because of the mass of the evaperator.i can also shut down the compressor and run for 1 minute before the temp rises above 0 c
so mass makes a big differance.yea it looks like it would hurt.but if i hadnt made all these variations i wouldnt know for sure.
the upper block of bakers is there for another reason rater than just to cool,but i can assure you it will be full of refriegerant,there is no doubt it will have freon well past the evaperator.proberly all the way to my manifold,if i get it how i want it...:D
You have to watch out to not add to much mass. Take your everyday standard heatsink for example. A thinner base will heat up quicker but, a thinner base will also transfer heat to the fins at a faster rate.Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
well good question..:D
but i have found over the many i have built it dosnt work like the text book says.the more mass helps alot in a evap block i have found,even just adding mass without passages can help on a small evaperator .but the cooling of the block itself doesnt take away any from the cooling of the cpu.actally it helps.
once the evaperator is dropped to a opperating temp it doesnt draw anymore from the system because it should be fully insulated.
i can give you a example of one of my tests.one of my systems can start without the compressor running and then start up the compressor and catch up and cool the cpu.this is only possable because of the mass of the evaperator.i can also shut down the compressor and run for 1 minute before the temp rises above 0 c
so mass makes a big differance.yea it looks like it would hurt.but if i hadnt made all these variations i wouldnt know for sure.
the upper block of bakers is there for another reason rater than just to cool,but i can assure you it will be full of refriegerant,there is no doubt it will have freon well past the evaperator.proberly all the way to my manifold,if i get it how i want it...:D
It like holding a spoon in a hot drink... its not hot at first but if you leave it and come back and try to stir it again your not gonna be happy. Use a bigger spoon and it takes longer, but it will stay hot for longer aswell.
Likewise can be said for our evaps aswell, a large base will take time to cool down but will stay cool, likewise a thin base will cool quick and heat up quick. It's more a matter of preference I think.
My last point is to watch the length of your fins. Cooling the top of a large fin will be less effective than cooling the bottom of a small one. All related to mass, large fins will take longer to cool down and blah blah blah...
It all come down to how fast you want to reach the equilibrium. In computers I personly tihnk it would be best to have a smaller block and have it heat up at post/boot rather than getting into windows and start to bench only to find it's crapped itself.
I think you should be more concentrating on how to transfer heat to the freon rather than mass... theres alot more than surface area affecting the preformance. Surface texturing, heat transfer enhancement surfaces to name a few.
what we need is someone with a degree in thermodynamics :rolleyes:
Copper, even though it is a good conductor of heat, also does offer some resistance to the transfer of heat. Say in the case of determining latent infiltration (transmission) of heat through walls (such as those of walk-in coolers/freezers for instance). This characteristic of heat transmission is expressed in terms of btuh per square (foot) of surface area (K).Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
[B]... more mass helps alot in an evap block, I have found. Even adding mass without passages can help on a small evaporator...
This value (K) is derived from both the thermal conductivity of the material (U), the thermal resistance (R) of the material relative to the thickness of the material, and the TD (temperature diffence) on each side of the material (I don't particularly know the mathematical formula). The K-factor (of even copper) is proportional to the thickness of the material between the (evaporating refrigerant) and the medium being cooled. The thinner the heat transmission material (copper), the less resistance of the material to the desireable heat transfer. that is why (air) coils are constructed of the thinnest possible copper tubing appropriate for the job.
Quote:
...so mass makes a big difference. Yea, it looks like it would hurt...
The rate of heat transmission is determined by the area of contact of the heat transfer surfaces that are in direct contact with each other (the processor's package and the block - obviously limited by the dimension of the package), and the TD between the two surfaces. the temperature of the contact surface of the block is detemined by the temperature of the evaporating refrigerant inside the block, and the heat transmission of the copper (K). Thicker copper (more mass) in those areas that are not directly in contact with the load (processor) would actually serve to insulate the system from undesireable loads (ambient air for instance). But incorporating more mass (thicker copper) at the point of contact with the load would serve to further insulate the load from the evaporating refrigerant.
Mind you, that in typical refrigeration applications, we can change the heat transfer surface area (in the case of cooling air) in order to change the TD. In cold storage refrigeration we manipulate this purposefully, in order to acheive certain desirable enviromental characteristics of the cooled air for different applicaitons, or somethimes even make the surface area of the evaporator smaller for the sake of economy - we don't have to buy as much copper. But in the proceesor cooling applications, we are limited by the fact that we cannot change the contact area with the package. :( . therefore, we are limited to either increasing the TD (lower evaporating temperature), and/or increasing the K-factor of the block (heat transmission rate).
Mind you, that if you consider the above:
A "0 degree" TD would indicate that no work is being done.
The greater the TD, the greater amount of work that is being done.
In the case of "more mass" being good, I consider this to be similar to the use of perhaps, dry ice. the dry ice is "stored energy". Mind you, you may say that the "cold" ice has less energy thatn the load, if you think of the actually presence of energy, being heat = energy, cold = lack of energy... but think of it in terms of the sorage of the energy that was required to remove the heat...... okay?
Your properly conceived DX (direct expansion) refrigeration system should be designed to do the work of the highest load that it will be required to satisfy (usually that is the highest load that we anticipate, and if we're lucky, we didn't underestimate it). Spending work for "storage" merely adds an additional load to the system.
PS: I have no degree in thermodyamics, other wise I would know the formula to derive K-factor, by memory, and I wouldn't have such a difficult time explaining my understanding of it.
If you are looking for formulas i may be able to help. This K factor you speak of, k is usually used to define the thermal conductivity of a material expressed as;
rate of heat transfer (eg watts) per thickness of material (eg meters) per temp difference (eg kelvin).
ie 377 W/m.K for copper.
The formula you are looking for is;
Q= kA(T1 - T2) / x
Q= rate of heat transfer
k= Thermal conductivity
A= Area of heat transfer
T1, T2 = Temperatures at surfaces
x = Thickness of material
Thank you Russell_hq. :D
...please consider all my upper case "k's" to be lower case.
You are "Johnny-on-the-spot" :)
But.... Do you know the formula in which "k" is derived for each material?
this formula requires that "U" and "R" be known. "k" is a constant in the formula that you posted, which derives the heat transmission of a particular configuration of material.
????
When I get back to my shop on Monday, I can look it up in my ASHRAE handbook.
see ya'
im not sure what you mean by R. To me this is the universal gas constant R which equals 8.314J/mol.K maybe you are talking about a resistance to heat flow?
Anyway for U taken as the overall heat transfer coefficient then;
Q=U.A.(T1 - T2) and Q=k.A.(T1 - T2) / x
Thus k.A.(T1 - T2)/ x = U.A.(T1 - T2)
Therefore k= U.x
Im not sure how relavent this is though? I was sure that k can be taken as constant for metals, also k is calculated experimentally I dont think that it can be calculated, not for metals anyway.
thermal resistance R can be given simply by x/k and k/x is the transfer coefficient h.
http://www.matweb.com Go here for property data of various materials.
you know, like the "R" value of insulationm (i.e... the Pink Panther.. Dowe corning fiberglass insulation)! Or should that be "r". I dunno! I'm not that well edumucated.
... NO, "k" is not constant for (all) metals. the "k" factor difference between copper and mild steel is near astronomical.. (well, very considerable anyway).
... trust me, the formula to derive "k" exists. I will post it, Monday.
oops , maybe you misinterpreted me. When i say constant, i mean the value doesnt change significantly with respect to temperature and pressure but not constant for all materials.
eg.
Aluminium = 230
Copper = 377
Silver = 412
stainless steel = 16
Bronze = 189
All units W/m.K
r is just the inverse of k. As it makes more sense to represent the thermal resistance of insulation ie bigger values better heat insulation whereas for conduction using k values bigger equals better heat conduction.
So if you take the relationship r = 1/k then as k increases r decreases and as k decreases then r increases as you would imagine. :)
No, I didn't misinterpret you...
your observations regarding "R" and "k" are enlightening. let me get that formula to derive "k", and perhaps that will further open my eyes.
Mind you, the diffence in "k"-factor between copper ("377") and stainless Steel ("16") is what I consider "astonomical" (considerable - i.e. worth consideration).
My understanding, is that the inverse of "R" is "U". "k" is derived from the two values, resistance and conductance, in order to determine rate of transfer (transmission).
But I'll shut up now, because I am at the very realm of my familiarity, at this very point. :) I'll look up the formula, tomorrow (if such formula exists, and I'm not mistaken).
cheers!