24/7 100% is a given anyways :D
But yeah, I checked yesterday and I once got 3 "inconclusive" WUs that weren't counted :shakes:
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24/7 100% is a given anyways :D
But yeah, I checked yesterday and I once got 3 "inconclusive" WUs that weren't counted :shakes:
They'll be decided soon enough. I've never had any stay like that for long.
Do u have a score list or database?Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
Searching for it like a ghost :(
D'oh, how'd I miss that, edited.Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
TheGanG, I don't keep a database of work unit scores if that's what you mean. I put that formula together from info I found here and on the BOINC forum on how the points are calculated.
If you're looking to see what work units of yours are pending, valid, in progress etc that's in the My Grid page at WCG under the Results Status tab.
Now to be really picky ... which version of XP 64bit? Home or Pro?Quote:
Originally Posted by TouGe
clocked @ 3.5ghz
10/21/2008 7:44:16 AM||Starting BOINC client version 6.3.14 for windows_x86_64
10/21/2008 7:44:16 AM||Processor: 4 GenuineIntel Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X3330 @ 2.66GHz [Intel64 Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 10]
10/21/2008 7:44:16 AM||OS: Microsoft Windows Vista: Ultimate x64 Editon, Service Pack 1, (06.00.6001.00)
10/21/2008 7:44:16 AM||Memory: 4.00 GB physical, 4.87 GB virtual
10/21/2008 6:24:44 PM||Benchmark results:
10/21/2008 6:24:44 PM|| Number of CPUs: 4
10/21/2008 6:24:44 PM|| 3561 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
10/21/2008 6:24:44 PM|| 10367 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
Here is my latest...
QX9770 @ 4.2
XSOS x64bit
5.10.45
Nice Sig :D
You're gonna need more than that tho ;)
To be really picky: There ain't no such thing as XP x64 home ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
Just one version, the pro version which = Win Server 03 (well, to 99,9% anyway)
Nice Sig, is that "the" one I'm thinking of?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Being a rabid penguin I wasn't aware. Thanks. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by jcool
Yes, it is the one I got off my friend at work. And that is only at 4203Mhz and the ram is at 1122Mhz. I think there is still more to be had, the temps are fine and I just need to give it more juice. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
Wow this thread slipped past me for a while. Any ways its premium and I really dont have a clue which BOINC version it is where would I find this information ?Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
And I must have had a typo my vcore is 1.23 not 1.32..... :shakes:
When you open the BOINC manager application it's in the bottom right hand corner, alternatively if you click through <help> <about> it'll tell you there.
5.10.45
Thankee :)
np, no clue how i didnt see this thread till now.
It gets lost under the various hamster frankensteining threads from time to time. ;)
lol yeah :D
My work laptop gives with Vista X64 Ultimate @ stock clocks (2GHz)
22/10/2008 2:55:13 PM||Starting BOINC client version 6.3.15 for windows_x86_64
22/10/2008 2:55:13 PM||Processor: 2 GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7300 @ 2.00GHz [Intel64 Family 6 Model 15 Stepping 11]
22/10/2008 2:55:13 PM||Processor features: fpu tsc pae nx sse sse2 pni
22/10/2008 2:55:13 PM||OS: Microsoft Windows Vista: Ultimate x64 Editon, Service Pack 1, (06.00.6001.00)
22/10/2008 2:55:13 PM||Memory: 1.97 GB physical, 4.16 GB virtual
22/10/2008 2:55:13 PM||Disk: 68.25 GB total, 20.71 GB free
22/10/2008 2:57:47 PM||Running CPU benchmarks
22/10/2008 2:58:18 PM||Benchmark results:
22/10/2008 2:58:18 PM|| Number of CPUs: 2
22/10/2008 2:58:18 PM|| 1788 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
22/10/2008 2:58:18 PM|| 5915 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
is that enough info?
I'll assume that's at stock clock speed because it's a laptop, but otherwise that's pretty much everything, thanks. :up:
I've actually been keeping a spreadsheet of these and others I've collected.
Download HERE is anyone wants it.
Note: It's in .xls (MS Excel) format.
you assumed correct! 2.0GHz stock dont want to fry the work laptop and be asked why?!?!
Above post edited :up:
Yeah, asset managers have no sense of humour do they. :shakes:
Not so much the Asset manager more my manager! I only just got this laptop 2 months ago (old standard spec for the company!)
What do you use all these stats for D_A?
errr ... dunno really :lol: I just keep 'em coz I find 'em interesting. I'm not the thread originator, though. I've just stayed interested. If you have a look you'll see that with the benchmark you can get an idea what a given machine will claim assuming 24/7 production. with some creative sorting you can get an idea which OS/client version/ 32-64bit etc SHOULD give you better output on given hardware.
my E8400 @ 4GHz in Vista Ultimate 64bit
19/10/2008 8:06:03 PM||Starting BOINC client version 6.2.19 for windows_x86_64
19/10/2008 8:06:04 PM||Processor: 2 GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz [Intel64 Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 6]
19/10/2008 8:06:04 PM||Processor features: fpu tsc pae nx sse sse2 pni
19/10/2008 8:06:04 PM||OS: Microsoft Windows Vista: Ultimate x64 Editon, Service Pack 1, (06.00.6001.00)
19/10/2008 8:06:04 PM||Memory: 4.00 GB physical, 8.16 GB virtual
22/10/2008 6:53:40 PM|| Number of CPUs: 2
22/10/2008 6:53:40 PM|| 3944 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
22/10/2008 6:53:40 PM|| 11293 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
22/10/2008 6:53:41 PM||Resuming computation
same CPU in 6.3.12 64bit I get:
22/10/2008 7:28:43 PM|| 3938 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
22/10/2008 7:28:43 PM|| 11682 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
AMD 4400+X2 @ 2.2GHz WinXP Pro SP3 32bit
17/10/2008 3:09:24 AM||Starting BOINC client version 6.2.19 for windows_intelx86
17/10/2008 3:09:25 AM||Processor: 2 AuthenticAMD AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4200+ [x86 Family 15 Model 43 Stepping 1]
17/10/2008 3:09:25 AM||Processor features: fpu tsc pae nx sse sse2 3dnow mmx
17/10/2008 3:09:25 AM||OS: Microsoft Windows XP: Professional x86 Editon, Service Pack 3, (05.01.2600.00)
17/10/2008 3:09:25 AM||Memory: 2.00 GB physical, 3.85 GB virtual
22/10/2008 6:55:26 PM|| Number of CPUs: 2
22/10/2008 6:55:26 PM|| 2103 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
22/10/2008 6:55:26 PM|| 3516 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
22/10/2008 6:55:27 PM||Resuming computation
Q6600@3.2GHz WHS 32Bit running same version as all the others.
19/10/2008 4:40:39 PM|| Number of CPUs: 4
19/10/2008 4:40:39 PM|| 3108 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
19/10/2008 4:40:39 PM|| 6699 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
19/10/2008 4:40:40 PM||Resuming computation
Q6600@3.3GHz 64Bit Vista Ultimate BOINC client version 6.2.19 for windows_x86_64
22/10/2008 7:04:37 PM|| Number of CPUs: 4
22/10/2008 7:04:37 PM|| 3307 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
22/10/2008 7:04:37 PM|| 7286 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
22/10/2008 7:04:38 PM||Resuming computation
Oviously I need to clock these some more right? ;) So far I am getting almost 50k WCG points a day with these 5 comps according to your spreadsheet. If only I could afford another Q6600!!
p.s. Hopefully that wasnt too much info!
Nice, my Harper owns your list :D :wasntme: :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
Best single machine I've gotten hold of the details for. :up:
Say, who goes by "DCManiac" anyway? I know they're here somewhere but I'm not sure who it is.
That is SerlvQuote:
Originally Posted by D_A
I just tracked him down, but you beat me to it.
jcool, that machine of yours ranks 4th fastest overall at WCG, and so far THE fastest I can find that someone wants to admit to owning.
THE hottest system I can find is a 32 core Opteron based system.
Ya, I used to have 2nd place with my E5420's a while ago... guess it's only down from there :down:
I'd like to know more about that 32 core box, but there's not a lot of details about it aside for it's running Win Server 2008. No owner, no bench scores ... :(
Maybe some kind of cluster? You know, like that Helmer machine? Several rigs put together to appear as one?
Makes no sense to do that for WCG though, as you loose quite a bit of firepower linking them.
I've seen hardware before that would take 8 quad core chips ... might be one of those.
Thanks to Asus releasing a new Bios for the Z7S that now sports Vcore adjustment, the team gained an additional 1,5Ghz (8*190Mhz :D )
X5450's at 451*9=4,06Ghz, primed them a few hours at 1,22V Vcore and 1,07V VTT :shocked:
<cracks out the spreadsheet>
edit: updated and uploaded.
Them calculations can't be real tho.. so far they did an average of maybe 40k/d... your calc says 45k. Maybe now it's a true 44K.. I hope, but we'll see.
Those numbers indicate what the machine will CLAIM. What comes out the other end of the quorum, however ...
As a good example: I have an XP2400+ system here. (overclocked of course) that typically gets awarded HALF what it claims, but it claims about 1700ppd. It benches much better than the P4 2.4 sitting beside it but takes longer to process the same work, so it effectively over-claims. This makes no sense to me, but the numbers don't lie (this time). I suspect some of the science apps (HCC for one) are optimised for one processor type or the other.
Hm, well. It never threw any errors, and I only got 2 "Inconclusive" WUs once. :shrug:
Oh errors are separate to what I'm talking about. We all suffer from the tyranny of the quorum. If you and I both do the same work unit but I claim say 180 for it and you only claim 50, but both check as valid, I'm gonna get pwned on the returning numbers while you'll get AT LEAST what you've claimed.
Didn't know that. Blows. Anything you can do to ensure you get what you claim?
I bet they discard half of what my Harper is claiming cause they think it can't be that fast lol.
It's a factor of how much benchmark and how much time. My XP2400 takes too long to get through work based on it's benchmark (I agree with that, I wish I knew why it's slower than the P4 coz it shouldn't be) so it over claims.
How long does your 2400+ take?
I just recently set up a 1700+.. running 210x10,5 of course ;)
It takes about 8:45h for one hcc unit.. sooo slow :(
XP 32, 6.3.12
XP2400+ (@2160, unstable any higher), 1GB RAM, stripped down Ubuntu 8.04 32bit BOINC 6.2.15 takes maybe 13hrs. I've been suspicious there's something wrong here for a while now.
edit: I should mention that the board isn't supposed to run the 2400
Wth? 13h sounds seriously wrong. And I thought mine was slow :p:
Mine's only running 1 stick of mem, so not even DC.
It's an Abit NF7 mobo tho with CR1 modbios.. FSB 210 synced, but only 2,5-3-3-8 on the mem :/
CPU can't do more than FSB 210 either. Also, it hits a wall beyond 2,2Ghz. That's rockstable at 1,88V Vcore, but not even >2V would get me 2,3Ghz, oh well.
At least it's not that power-hungry at 146W boinc...
I have 2 sticks of RAM in there, but no dual channel (I don't think). It's a MSI MS-6390 mATx board which is only listed to take up to 2200+ chips. It's currently sitting at 42°C (slightly less than my Opty 185 @2.86). It's just too slow for it's benchmark, if that makes sense. For what it's claiming it should be working faster. I'm looking into compiling a custom kernel for it after this semester finishes and I have more time. There's a TON of stuff a headless machine just doesn't need in the kernel that could save me some overhead ... but there's a limit to what can be gained just the same. No matter what I strip out, it just ain't gonna be a X5450. If the science apps are compiled for Intel then I'm kinda wasting my time anyway.
Well, it should do sth between 9 and 10h anyway. If you ain't got time to compile, just throw Win XP on it like the rest of us, for heaven's sake :p:
Lessee ... I don't actually own a legal copy for one, I don't think that's really the problem, and I have the whole thing running on only a 6GB HDD, so after the install I have my doubts there'll be enough room for the OS to scratch itself let alone do much useful work. Don't get me wrong, I think XP is the best version of Windows out there ... but I walked away from it ages ago partly because of how it holds the hardware back. Even that old thing cold boots to a fully functional desktop in under a minute, with everything loaded, the hdd inactive and BOINC crunching away happily. XP on my daughter's XP3000+ ... try about 5 minutes.
Say ... what's the bench on that 1700+ anyway?
That 1700+ takes about 45 seconds from power off to completely ready, including AV software, BOINC et cetera.
And that's on an old Maxtor 80GB 5400rpm HDD (actually the 1st 80GB HDD ever, this was).
So 5 min bootup for XP? Again, something severely wrong there. For comparison, my mainrig takes 30 seconds from post to being ready in XP x64, thanks to WD and their Velociraptor.
Space is a nonissue as well, 8GB is plenty for Win XP. It needs about 1,5GB + virtual memory.
Bench, hm. I would have to get up from bed again which I'm not inclined to do right now :D
Think it was something like 2188 FPU and 3680 Integer.. don't ask me how I remember that kind of info lol.
This thing has a 6GB hdd, and an old one, not even an 8. I'd be VERY surprised if it's not still loading services. XP normally does ocntinue loading stuff for a while after the desktop appears, even after it seems interactive.
It also works fine on a 6GB hdd. My dad's old laptop has a 13GB in it, the XP install on that one is like 3 years old and pretty cluttered, lots of useless apps on there, large paging file. Still, used space is below 6GB.
Idk just thinking a slackened XP install is the way to go for those older machines. Use nlite to throw out all you don't need, you'll end up with a 200MB Windooze CD :D
Maybe ... but there is something perversely fun about rolling my own kernel. I did one for my main system before and it was as close to "instant-on" as I have ever seen. VERY light feel to the whole system, too.
Sounds cool, still no use if it's taking too long with BOINC tho :/
There is also the little matter of feeling "dirty" every time I touch a Windows machine, even for gaming. You know, that feeling that even boiling oneself in disinfectant can't get rid of.
I object to feeling like Steve Ballmer's "prison bytch".
:ROTF::ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
I just don't care anymore. If it works, and fast, I'll take it.
And now, could someone else please speak up? The last 2 pages is like me and D_A chatting all alone :p: :rofl:
Yes, people ...
We can haz benchmahkz plz??
Spread sheet is awesome :up:
You want benchmarks ?
Here's my laptop , pentium M 1600Mhz :D
23/10/2008 8:49:08||Running CPU benchmarks
23/10/2008 8:49:08||Suspending computation - running CPU benchmarks
23/10/2008 8:49:39||Benchmark results:
23/10/2008 8:49:39|| Number of CPUs: 1
23/10/2008 8:49:39|| 1467 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
23/10/2008 8:49:39|| 2914 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
So which OS version and variant and which BOINC version are you using?Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] Jaco
Oh yes , forgot that.
Win XP pro 32bit , Boinc 5.10.13
Thankee :up:
Now I just ran that bench on the 1700+ (running 2,2Ghz), XP 32, BOINC 6.3.12:
FPU: 2211
Integer: 3696
My guesstimate was about right ;)
I did forget to mention that the XP2400+ and the P4 2.4 are both running the same OS, version and kernel with the same amount of DDR400 RAM.
and thanks for the bench update. :up:
Hang on, that thing is only rated at 1.467GHZ ... that's a nice 'clock you got on it!
QX6700@ 3.5 Ghz
Vista 64
Version 5.10.45
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||Starting BOINC client version 5.10.45 for windows_intelx86
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||log flags: task, file_xfer, sched_ops
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||Libraries: libcurl/7.18.0 OpenSSL/0.9.8e zlib/1.2.3
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||Data directory: C:\Program Files (x86)\BOINC
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||Processor: 4 GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU @ 2.66GHz [Intel64 Family 6 Model 15 Stepping 7]
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||Processor features: fpu tsc pae nx sse sse2 pni mmx
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||OS: Microsoft Windows Vista: , Service Pack 1, (06.00.6001.00)
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||Memory: 4.00 GB physical, 8.19 GB virtual
10/23/2008 6:21:09 PM||Disk: 465.76 GB total, 276.08 GB free
10/23/2008 6:21:14 PM||Running CPU benchmarks
10/23/2008 6:21:46 PM||Benchmark results:
10/23/2008 6:21:46 PM|| Number of CPUs: 4
10/23/2008 6:21:46 PM|| 3438 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
10/23/2008 6:21:46 PM|| 7671 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
10/23/2008 6:21:47 PM||Resuming computation
Vista ...what ... 64?
"... please be accurate. This is for posterity." </movie reference>
A big part of why I do this is so that people can look up their processor and compare different operating systems (and variants thereof) and BOINC clients to make a better informed choice for their crunchers. The more information I can get, the better and more useful it is for everyone.
Vista 64
It's in my post at the top
Vista ... WHAT ... 64.
Business?
Home?
Ultimate?
Tofu?
Lol sorry my bad
Ultimate
I just thought that everyone used that :)
Thanks. :up:
Nope, not everyone. I gather these from more than one site, too.
Where can I get Vista Tofu 64?
:lol2:
I was j/k about the Ultimate reference btw
Ratings are for Dells :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
It's one of the infamous JIUHB step CPUs, so it's a rather bad clocker really. Most of them hit 2,3-2,4Ghz. But 210x10,5 is all this one's got. (Yeah I tried >2V Vcore :shakes: )
Lemme bring my XP-m 2600+ back.. that one did 2,8Ghz and FSB 250 :D
Currently working on the Sausageman so more benches are inbound :up:
Benches are teh goodnez. :up:
All right then, it's up and crunching :up:
# of CPUs: 4
FPU: 1889
Integer: 3874
Pulls 103W from the wall, using a totally unsuitable 500W PSU that prolly sucks ass efficiency-wise. 31-32C coretemp on all cores. Sammy rocks :up:
Edit: Oh yeah. XP Pro SP3, BOINC 6.3.12
32 or 64 bit? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by jcool
... and thankee:D
... no 64bit capability for Sammy :(
I always tell you when it's 64bit :p:
Edit: One can really tell you ain't no Windooze guy. There isn't even a SP3 yet for XP x64. ;)
So are you gonna make me go through the sausageman thread looking to see what clock you're running those at?
edit: you mentioned you were waiting for SL8WTs, so I take it those are 2.0GHz chips. I'll assume you're running at stock for now, coz you'd be bragging if you weren't. ;)
Just as an aside, I've been surfing a few benchmark threads over multiple forums and in general people do not provide enough information for me to be able to give anything useful back. The only exceptions I've found so far are this thread and the threads I've started at BitBenderForums and TheDCZone. While I haven't tracked EVERY possible variable, I think I've got the major/most important stuff covered.
@D_A
I just downloaded the BIONC beta for Vista 64. Do you want my benchmarks again?
Sorry, totally forgot that. Running 166x12=2Ghz so yeah, stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
A lot of people have tried modding, but no success so far :(
I'd love to run Sammy at FSB 200.
Auch, have to start looking in the rearview mirror again for you then:clap::clap::up: .People here just gets harder and harder too pass, and coming up faster and faster on my tail, guess i`m getting old:rofl::rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by jcool
Hope the Nehalem i have inbound will make a good impact!(still far away though, end of november:()
And I still haven't got my 2nd Harper back up :(
You'll really have to work if I ever do :p:
:eek:I have`nt been paying attention, you have two of those beasts?Quote:
Originally Posted by jcool
Yeeeez:D:up:
Jcool, The Beastmaster http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeVid.../99/236799.jpg
If it's a different client on the same hardware/OS then yes please. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by randomplatypi
Single changes like that make the list more useful as it allows direct comparisons.
QX6700@ 3.5 Ghz
Vista 64 Ultimate
BOINC 6.3.17
10/24/2008 5:55:57 PM||Running CPU benchmarks
10/24/2008 5:56:29 PM||Benchmark results:
10/24/2008 5:56:29 PM|| Number of CPUs: 4
10/24/2008 5:56:29 PM|| 3345 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
10/24/2008 5:56:29 PM|| 10220 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
Thankee :up: A nice direct comparison between versions. :D
Does XS have crunching teams besides this one that uses the BOINC system? Perhaps they can be convinced to give up their benchmarks as well?
Not sure if this is of any interest or significance to DA but I'm posting it anyway. q9650@450x9=4050 on vista64 ult sp1
10/25/08 00:11:22||Suspending computation - running CPU benchmarks
10/25/08 00:11:53||Benchmark results:
10/25/08 00:11:53|| Number of CPUs: 4
10/25/08 00:11:53|| 4092 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
10/25/08 00:11:53|| 11971 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
10/25/08 00:11:54||Resuming computation
10/25/2008 12:13:22 AM||Version change (6.3.15 -> 6.3.17)
10/25/2008 12:13:22 AM||Running CPU benchmarks
10/25/2008 12:13:22 AM||Suspending computation - running CPU benchmarks
10/25/2008 12:13:53 AM||Benchmark results:
10/25/2008 12:13:53 AM|| Number of CPUs: 4
10/25/2008 12:13:53 AM|| 4085 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
10/25/2008 12:13:53 AM|| 11972 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
edit: pretty ho-hum, the only thing interesting to me about it is that it changed itself from a 24hr clock to 12
Actually I have 3 pairs of Harpers. Gave one away for a good friend tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Warlock
Loonym, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm interested in. Being able to compare one instance to another with only one change is great! By only changing one variable at a time we can get a better idea of what changes make what difference. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by loonym
CPU Type 2x QuadCore Intel Xeon X5460, 3800 MHz (9.5 x 400)
10/25/2008 4:29:32 AM|| 3889 floating point MIPS (Whetstone) per CPU
10/25/2008 4:29:32 AM|| 11312 integer MIPS (Dhrystone) per CPU
~~~~
Trying to iron things out though. WUs are taking a rediculously large amount of time. Something isn't right.
No power/thermal throttling turned on?
... and what OS and BOINC version are you running there, Scott?
XP 64-bit and BOINC v6.2.19 for Windows 64-bit.
C1E and Speedstep is turned off in BIOS.
Scott,
if this is on the Z7S, make sure you have "SF Bypass" on "enable" in Bios. Which is the default setting anyway. Snoop filter is bugged and makes this mobo run slow as hell.
For reference:
HCC completion times should be around or below 3h for 8 WUs.
430x9 took around 2:52, 451x9 takes around 2:45. High FSB helps a lot tho.
:up: Sheet updatedQuote:
Originally Posted by [XC] serlv
D_A,
can you maybe PM the OP and ask him if he'd link your boinc benchmark list in post #1?
So I don't have to search all the time when it's updated :p:
Might do that. ;)
... and since I forgot to mention it, it was this thread that inspired me to start the list in the first place.
Where is this spreadsheet/list? Is there a URL for it, maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by jcool
Can it be put on the Google app? Would that do us any good?