AMD's AF fix proven false

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11-01-2010, 02:12 PM
Maxforces

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKYMTL

Actually, no.

AMD claimed better AF quality. Meanwhile, they are still using FP16 render target demotion which can decrease the overall IQ in scenes but increase performance.

AF is better on a series 6xxx, computerbase is wrong
AF high 5xxx
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/733...f165xxx.th.jpg
AF high 6xxx
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4...sisaf16.th.jpg

AF VH 5xxx
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1...6xq5xxx.th.jpg

AF VH 6xxx
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7...isaf16q.th.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1446/5xxx.th.jpg

AF high on a series 6xxx= AF VH on a series 5xxx. So slider flew lower one degree
11-01-2010, 02:47 PM
cegras

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vardant

One reason for using older games might have been, that the problem is more apparent. It also shows, that either these "optimizations" are more general in nature, but don't work well with some games or they are game specific and if they miss something or the game you want to play is not exactly an AAA title, you might be out of luck.

Testing every game you benchmark with every driver version and comparing it not only with competition, but with older generation of cards would be quite exhausting in either of these cases and it still might not be enough.

It's more apparent because the FP16 is only used in older games?
11-01-2010, 02:56 PM
Eastcoasthandle

Quote:

Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ

Why should drivers need to be "optimized" for older games? Yes Nvidia has had issues recently with older games. Gothic and NWN2 comes to mind both of which have been fixed. I want to be able to play an older game or a source port (some of which can be very demanding) and have it looking as it should.

Why would a benchmark on a game like HL2 matter? We all know that it runs at a more than acceptable framerate. I applaud Computerbase for pointing these issues out. The point stands no matter how much you try and downplay it. Benchmarks only tell half of the story.

There is no excuse for sub-par image quality on a $200-$700 product. When I spend that much on a video card I want it to be able to run anything that I throw at it. Not only games made in the last three years.:rolleyes:

That said I have yet to see a post about one person switching to a Nvidia card because of AF issues so it can't be that common of a problem.

Why would a driver need to be optimized for such an old game? Whatever optimizations (IE: profile used) that they once used may no longer be applicable or need updating. CB had current games on hand and they didn't used them to do IQ comparisons. That's the important aspect of that review as a whole. So, if the benchmark for a game like HL2 doesn't matter neither does the IQ. Because we know you don't need a 6870 to play HL2. What they should have done was use the games they actually benchmarked to do IQ comparisons with.
11-01-2010, 03:32 PM
BababooeyHTJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

Why would a driver need to be optimized for such an old game? Whatever optimizations (IE: profile used) that they once used may no longer be applicable or need updating. CB had current games on hand and they didn't used them to do IQ comparisons. That's the important aspect of that review as a whole. So, if the benchmark for a game like HL2 doesn't matter neither does the IQ. Because we know you don't need a 6870 to play HL2. What they should have done was use the games they actually benchmarked to do IQ comparisons with.

I agree, I must have misread your post before.
11-01-2010, 04:38 PM
Piotrsama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastcoasthandle

Why would a driver need to be optimized for such an old game? Whatever optimizations (IE: profile used) that they once used may no longer be applicable or need updating. CB had current games on hand and they didn't used them to do IQ comparisons. That's the important aspect of that review as a whole. So, if the benchmark for a game like HL2 doesn't matter neither does the IQ. Because we know you don't need a 6870 to play HL2. What they should have done was use the games they actually benchmarked to do IQ comparisons with.

Well said, plus in this article, image quality comparison was made with 3 recent games.
http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon...-6870-review/9
And their conclusion is:

Quote:

So the difference at default driver setting in-between AMD and NVIDIA is as far as we are concerned NIL.
11-01-2010, 07:48 PM
STEvil

I noticed that Aniso looks like crap with my GTX480 in TF2 and L4D2.. if I sit still and stare at the image.
11-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Vardant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxforces

AF is better on a series 6xxx, computerbase is wrong

AF high on a series 6xxx= AF VH on a series 5xxx. So slider flew lower one degree

jpg? I'm speechless.
11-02-2010, 12:22 AM
Shadov

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vardant

jpg? I'm speechless.

Ohh I guess your "regular gaming" magnifying glass is waiting to do the comparison? :p:

Though it dosent bother you that computerbase uses the same JPG files?

You shouldnt try to make any conclusions based on one review.
11-02-2010, 12:28 AM
Olivon

Hopefully, story happened with AMD.

If it was nVidia thing, that would be a real masssacre, calling'em cheaters and Co ... Sad to say that but so true ...
11-02-2010, 01:38 AM
Maxforces

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vardant

jpg? I'm speechless.

do you want me to upload png 6mb one file
let's see
http://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/31423/11/
JPG file
11-02-2010, 02:04 AM
Florinmocanu

Hey guys, i don't really get why everyone is crying about older games not running as they should.

I own a Settlers 4 game, from 2000. On Nvidia cards older than 8xxx gen, you cannot play it, at all. All the in game menus are black. And the problem is there for around 3-4 years, a lot of people who own that game complained about it but no answer or fix from nvidia.

Just like other old games have problems with Ati.

Older games not running as they should on new GPUs is not something uncommon, it's a usual thing.
11-02-2010, 02:11 AM
Nikolasz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Florinmocanu

Hey guys, i don't really get why everyone is crying about older games not running as they should.

I own a Settlers 4 game, from 2000. On Nvidia cards older than 8xxx gen, you cannot play it, at all. All the in game menus are black. And the problem is there for around 3-4 years, a lot of people who own that game complained about it but no answer or fix from nvidia.

Just like other old games have problems with Ati.

Older games not running as they should on new GPUs is not something uncommon, it's a usual thing.

http://www.zeus-software.com/galleries/nglide

nGlide is a 3Dfx Voodoo Glide wrapper which means it 'emulates' 3Dfx Glide Library, so you don't need to have 3Dfx Voodoo card to play 3Dfx Glide API games. Both versions of APIs are supported, Glide2 (glide2x.dll) and Glide3 (glide3x.dll). nGlide translates all Glide callings to Direct3D. Wrapper also supports high resolution modes.

You can run old games now
11-02-2010, 02:24 AM
Florinmocanu

settlers 4 needs directx. ;). Awesome game, but i cannot play it anymore because of this issue.
11-02-2010, 02:29 AM
Nikolasz

If you run game with 3dfx nglide mayb then will run.
But then again that is driver bug, you know where to report to
11-02-2010, 02:40 AM
hurrdurr

Some of you guys got it wrong (as I did in the beginning). When both cards are running under the same drivers (10.10), HD6xxx 's AF can be better than HD5xxx's, and it's definitely not worse. The issue here is about a comparison between drivers (10.10 vs 10.9), not graphics cards.

The issue at hand is, with a HD5000 series card, under all default settings, do you or do you not get worse IQ (and better performance due to it) with 10.10 than 10.9? I'm saying HD5000 because I'm assuming you can't run a HD6000 card with 10.9.

If the answer to the above is "yes", then there could be a claim that AMD changed the default IQ settings so that in reviews, HD6000 would be 5% faster than otherwise. I have browsed through B3D forums and saw Dave Baumann answering some of the questions, and it looked like he was kind of evasive (nothing not to be expected from a company answering questions, though.) and said that 10.10 had more AF "optimizations" in default than the 10.9. I think "optimizations" refer to what AMD calls AI - performance enhancing but IQ worsening optimizations. He also added that if you preferred the old AF you could always switch back to 10.9, although I'm guessing this is not an option for HD6000 users.
11-02-2010, 07:40 AM
RaZz!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego

http://www.zeus-software.com/galleries/nglide

nGlide is a 3Dfx Voodoo Glide wrapper which means it 'emulates' 3Dfx Glide Library, so you don't need to have 3Dfx Voodoo card to play 3Dfx Glide API games. Both versions of APIs are supported, Glide2 (glide2x.dll) and Glide3 (glide3x.dll). nGlide translates all Glide callings to Direct3D. Wrapper also supports high resolution modes.

You can run old games now

settlers 4 makes use of a 2d-engine.

besides that, i don't get what a glide wrapper has to do with anything said in this thread :p:
11-02-2010, 10:29 PM
STEvil

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZz!

settlers 4 makes use of a 2d-engine.

besides that, i don't get what a glide wrapper has to do with anything said in this thread :p:

he thinks settlers uses Glide.. for some reason.
11-03-2010, 11:24 AM
BababooeyHTJ

Well, I got my 6870 yesterday and loaded up an old save from Just Cause 2 to check out performance and this is what I saw. I guess that it doesn't only effect older titles.

Youtube video
11-03-2010, 11:29 AM
Olivon

Another german article about IQ issues on HD6800 series : TweakPC
11-03-2010, 12:04 PM
Manicdan

Quote:

Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ

Well, I got my 6870 yesterday and loaded up an old save from Just Cause 2 to check out performance and this is what I saw. I guess that it doesn't only effect older titles.

Youtube video

what am i looking for?

btw make sure you guys run original size cause he didnt upload some cheap 240P crap
11-03-2010, 12:10 PM
BababooeyHTJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manicdan

what am i looking for?

btw make sure you guys run original size cause he didnt upload some cheap 240P crap

Look at the banding on the vents on the floor. It's actually a lot worse in game. I'm not sure what youtube does with uploaded videos as far as compression. It's also visible at a distance.

Thats with Cat AI set to HQ, btw.
11-03-2010, 12:23 PM
RaZz!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivon

Another dutch article about IQ issues on HD6800 series : TweakPC

dutch? i'll take that as an offence :eek: - it's german ;)

tweakpc's videos do show the issue pretty good.

the reason why computerbase uses old games to show the af quality is probably that current games' have too detailed/complex textures/objects so that it's harder to spot anomalies in the AF filtering. this is just a guess though, but the tweakpc videos prove that it's easy to spot on simple textures.
11-03-2010, 12:23 PM
Manicdan

Quote:

Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ

Look at the banding on the vents on the floor. It's actually a lot worse in game. I'm not sure what youtube does with uploaded videos as far as compression. It's also visible at a distance.

Thats with Cat AI set to HQ, btw.

ok, it comes out really clear in a higher resolution

it seems that these drivers are not treating the vents like a regular texture then. does AA make any difference, and if not, good old (new) trusty MLAA should be tried out i think
11-03-2010, 12:36 PM
Olivon

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZz!

dutch? i'll take that as an offence :eek: - it's german ;)

tweakpc's videos do show the issue pretty good.

the reason why computerbase uses old games to show the af quality is probably that current games' have too detailed/complex textures/objects so that it's harder to spot anomalies in the AF filtering. this is just a guess though, but the tweakpc videos prove that it's easy to spot on simple textures.

Corrected ;)

All my apologizes RaZz! :D
11-03-2010, 12:50 PM
BababooeyHTJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manicdan

ok, it comes out really clear in a higher resolution

it seems that these drivers are not treating the vents like a regular texture then. does AA make any difference, and if not, good old (new) trusty MLAA should be tried out i think

I tried everything but MLAA and it didn't seem to make a difference.

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