Define the XtremeSystems Liquid Cooling Community...

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Originally Posted by rogueagent6

:rolleyes:

**Cough** BS **Cough Cough**

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Have you tried ever using Watercool stuff, have you even bothered looking for test data, or are you just saying that because the person who said it is an AC fan? My Watercool block is giving me better temps than I expected from my CPU, even when I managed to get the damn outlet and inlet backwards.

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Oh yeah, and about "the norm:"
When I started looking at components for a watercooling loop, the one goal I had was to figure out how it worked and the design principle behind it, so I can make my own decisions based on what I know, as opposed to simply finding out what was top of the line at the time.

To seek the latter wouldn't have resulted in any accrued knowledge.

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2nd edit: At this point, I might as well admit to liking AC.

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Originally Posted by ranker

You're once again trying to spin this thread off topic. So how about you stop your your usual flame baiting spin tactics and NOT hijack this thread.

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Wow just Wow! You are the one who is constantly going OT here and elsewhere with your tirades. Some of us just choose to answer. Get a life dude...

I found this place from a link on THG and almost instantly knew that I would be spending a lot of time here. To me the big difference between XS and other places is that pretty much no matter how dumb a question gets asked it is still answered in a helpful and kind manner. Unlike other places where if you don't say exactly what they want to hear you will get torn apart.

What is XS:
Its the great members who for the most part want to help and do so with thoughtfulness

I came here full time about a year when I wanted to consider WCing..I knew nothing

I was never ridiculed for my noobie questions or comments...members were there to offer advice/education and support

The level of knowledge and understanding by the forum guur's is terrific and they openly share and never belittle

I am always amazed at how easy it is to converse with people like Marci/Cathar etc, I personally feel fortunate to have them

I will say this, lately tolerance is changing and some of the good will is gone

As for the cookie cutter recommendations..I disagree(people posting want to know the best solutions, why not give them that from the get go..why offer a partial sloution so that have to learn and buy again..what a waste)

1yr recommedations were different than today...however, when asked TODAY..certain components are better...ie Fuzion, GTX, MCW60, DDC2 etc

But over the next few months I am sure there will be changes ....

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Originally Posted by Movieman

Family came here on the Mayflower, direct ancestors founded the city of Salem,Mass( Roger and Lot Conant) and family has been in New England ever since. One of the great benefits of this forum is this "New Englander" gets to meet people from all over the world.

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Wait isnt that "Ole Englander"? :ROTF:

Scotch Irish and German here, ancestors came over on the boats.

Funny thing is I don't drink...........go figure.............

Well I do a lot of lurking (reading around etc).
But generally, XS is the place to look at if you want to find some answers pertaining to anything remotely to do with OCing and cooling. Chances are, if there's anything going down, you'll read about it here first (or close to).

I love reading the how to guides (MaxxxRacer's watercooling guides, some other OCing guides, etc) and people who want to really want to help the community out. That free flow of knowledge is what I value most.

But yea, some of the stuff I did, I asked (and received) for input from members.

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Originally Posted by Top Nurse

I'm beginning to believe that you have stock in Swiftech (RCHN) with the way you keep going on about this. Creativity in the water cooling field came from individuals that did this kind of stuff in their garage. In many cases it still is the little guys that make the changes today. Why would you care if someone invests in a product or not? :confused:

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I am sorry, but something is bothering me...............I am an English speaking American by birth, with a college education and I am sure that if I had a problem reading plain english that it would have been picked up along time ago.............my issue with your post is WHERE IN THE HELL DOES HE SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SWIFTECH? is that in fine print and I have to change my font size to read it?

I didn't want to say anything but blatantly you are trying to bait him.............

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Originally Posted by nealh

What is XS:
Its the great members who for the most part want to help and do so with thoughtfulness

I came here full time about a year when I wanted to consider WCing..I knew nothing

I was never ridiculed for my noobie questions or comments...members were there to offer advice/education and support

The level of knowledge and understanding by the forum guur's is terrific and they openly share and never belittle

I am always amazed at how easy it is to converse with people like Marci/Cathar etc, I personally feel fortunate to have them

I will say this, lately tolerance is changing and some of the good will is gone

As for the cookie cutter recommendations..I disagree(people posting want to know the best solutions, why not give them that from the get go..why offer a partial sloution so that have to learn and buy again..what a waste)

1yr recommedations were different than today...however, when asked TODAY..certain components are better...ie Fuzion, GTX, MCW60, DDC2 etc

But over the next few months I am sure there will be changes ....

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There has been mention on this thread about XSrs staying with particular parts and in part that is true, but what is also true is that opinion changes with the development of the hardware because the performance changes, this is, or so it seems to me, is because many here have access to the new hardware and can give it a run for its money and post results so on many levels XS is at the forefront of development for many aspects of the PC enthusiasts market be it the latest CPUs, to the latest RAM sinks more often then not you will find it here first. That says something about the trustworthiness of the manufacturers, the developers and the individuals that are truly xtreme in their creations.

I found XS through some other website a few years back and joined because I thought there might be something of interest here. Pretty much forgot about the place till Ranker invited us all over here from the [H]. :up:

The plusses:

• Fast paced discussions.
• Interesting threads and posts
• Interesting people
• Good information to help make an informed decision.

The minuses:

• Narrowness of views on certain parties.
• Too much stuff based on theoretical math and not on experimentation.

So the bottom line here is that I think that with some openness to new ideas there can be new ways to do things. By having new stuff going on it benefits everyone.

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Originally Posted by Top Nurse

The minuses:

• Narrowness of views on certain parties.
• Too much stuff based on theoretical math and not on experimentation.

So the bottom line here is that I think that with some openness to new ideas there can be new ways to do things. By having new stuff going on it benefits everyone.

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A: you are a fool if you continue to focus on "Narrowness of views on certain parties." There is a reason there are so many that post/are registered here, the narrow mindedness is yours alone, if you don't liek someones opinion use the ignore option it works.

B:Too much stuff based on theoretical math and not on experimentation.


You really have no clue how much time others have spent testing/designing, working the math and other aspects of design and other information found here, maybe if you spent more time reading and doing your own actual research you would not have so much time to troll others.

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Originally Posted by phelan1777

...my issue with your post is WHERE IN THE HELL DOES HE SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SWIFTECH? is that in fine print and I have to change my font size to read it?

I didn't want to say anything but blatantly you are trying to bait him.............

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He posts all over the place about people investing in water cooling companies. IIRC, most all the water cooling companies are closely held ventures. Swiftech is the only one I know of who is traded on the exchange.

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Originally Posted by Top Nurse

[*]Too much stuff based on theoretical math and not on experimentation.[/list]

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Ditto, no one seems to be testing anything. Most of the tests out there seem to be from 2005 down. It's shameful. We gotta test and experiment with stuff!

Hey, Isn't this thread about why this community is great? Let's all take a deep breath and continue on why it is a great one. :D

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Originally Posted by phelan1777

You really have no clue how much time others have spent testing/designing, working the math and other aspects of design and other information found here, maybe if you spent more time reading and doing your own actual research you would not have so much time to troll others.

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Actually I do. The thing that cracks me up is that one day, not to long ago, those who used smaller tubing were called stupid. All the while those who used smaller tubing were saying "hey this ain't right and we have seen it with our own eyes on our rigs." Everyone calls them liars and charlatans till one day Cathar posts that we were right and that there really was only a 1-2 C difference. So so much for the math, heh?

Theory is great as it gives us avenues to explore. However, theory will never replace real life experimentation. So next time someone says it ain't so then you might want to give them the benefit of the doubt. :)

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Originally Posted by Top Nurse

Actually I do. The thing that cracks me up is that one day, not to long ago, those who used smaller tubing were called stupid. All the while those who used smaller tubing were saying "hey this ain't right and we have seen it with our own eyes on our rigs." Everyone calls them liars and charlatans till one day Cathar posts that we were right and that there really was only a 1-2 C difference. So so much for the math, heh?

Theory is great as it gives us avenues to explore. However, theory will never replace real life experimentation. So next time someone says it ain't so then you might want to give them the benefit of the doubt. :)

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Top nurse you are my friend :up:

I had my first WC experience about 7 years ago. A buddy of mine with minimal help from me, built a custom water cooling rig out of a heater core, an old DD block, a cheapo fish tank pump, and a Tupperware reservoir. He used it to over-clock an AMD 750 to around 1ghz. He later sold the setup to me, and I still have that old processor to this day. I actually finally retired it out of a home file server only a few weeks ago, and the pencil marks needed for over-clocking are still there. The water cooling setup was retired years back when the processors I was buying needed better cooling and different blocks.

I had been using green mouthwash for the coolant. Mainly because I was younger and that was easy access to me. The one at the time wasn't very sealed and needed refilling almost every week or two. In other words it just wasn't a very efficient WC setup, but it did its job.

Six months ago I decided to delve back into WC and with the experience I had from the past I thought a pre-built kit was the better way to go. So, I ended up getting a 3d galaxy II. It was a gift and it did a decent job until the pump died about 2 weeks ago. At this point I began looking for why this might have happened and during my WC search stumbled onto this site.

Once I came to this site in a matter of moments I found answers to many questions, and I found a different approach. I hadn't been happy with the temps I was getting with my kit. So, just last week I ordered, received, and built my "custom" ( if you can call it that ) WC setup. All the parts were recommended by and USED by many people on this site. This is due to the fact that when you come here the judgment seems universally cleared. XS members are looking to squeeze the max performance out their systems while maintaining reliability. A quick read of the stickies and user posts shows how nearly everything worth testing is tested and scrutinized. And the best part is, though users may have favorites, they are not trying to sell anyone anything. They are giving the facts and letting newcomers know "bottom line, this is top of the line, this is not" and helping with the in between.

Sorry for the long winded speech. My point is: Had I been reading this site those 7 years ago, I may not have had the best parts, but I would have learned how to enhance what I had and been able to keep WC. Had I known about this site 6 months ago, I would already have the components I am just now installing AND more money to add more.

XS is what consumers of most products would die to have. A no nonsense straight answer about what they are buying. Sure, lots of mediocre WC kits are instantly turned down, but always a better and usually ( if a kit is what is necessary ) closely priced kit is suggested. Which, as I can vouch for saves people time and money.

XS may have the occasional flame war and trolling, but what forum doesn't? All in all XS is a very informative and useful site that I am glad I found.

Dateranoth

About a year ago, I felt it was necessary for Swiftech to re-link with its roots and get back in touch with its core audience; I started Swiftech from my garage 7 years ago, and was concerned that people were coining us like some sort of Microsoft of water-cooling; the solution I chose was to become more actively involved in forum discussions. XS was the ticket then, and still is to this day. Over time, I saw the perception of our Company gradually change from systematic antagonism, to acceptance and respect.

This forum provides me/us with an opportunity to both learn and to educate. There is no growth without knowledge. Here, we all share this precious commodity, and keep on growing.

The only people who should be flamed are not the ignorant, but those who choose to remain such.

Good Job XS for keeping the art of overclocking alive and well!

Nicely said GABE !!!!

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Originally Posted by Omastar

Strengths: performance oriented, generally a good deal of technical knowledge, advocates for custom loops (believe me, a lot of people are content to buy Koolance and call it a day), quite a few in-house water cooling gurus.

Weaknesses: the debates about minutiae (polishing blocks with ketchup, vinegar in blocks/rads for cleaning, etc.) really need to stop. We get it. And the math wizards who flex their knowledge of flow rates, physics, etc. need to shut up if they can't properly apply this knowledge. :)

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This man speaks the truth, and nothing but the truth.

What is XS?

Naturally, any perception of XS is a personal one, and so this is going to be a rather personalised opinion, in terms of what I think XS is, and what XS means to me.

There's numerous forums about the place, but XS has of late become one of the most active forums with a diverse international community. It has somehow managed to strike a fine balance between being both novice friendly, yet bleeding edge enough to interest the veterans. There are more strictly technically oriented forums, but they eschewed novice friendliness to the point that they have starved themselves of active participation. In short, there's not enough happening at those places to keep them interesting. The other side of the coin are the more overt novice friendly forums, which while okay, becomes tiring to a veteran like myself to read the same basic questions being asked a million times, but no one ever progresses to ask: "How can we make water-cooling even better?". There are other more cliquey forums, quite often populated with a very small user base who shun outsiders and basically stagnate with very rare posts, and even then, are typically off-topic. There's also more one-nation biased forums (eg. OCAU), which are decently productive, but largely concern themselves with issues specific to the local region.

XS is an international melting pot of ideas and experience. It is performance driven, and while people may argue that this can lead to some lack of variety, that does make it a good thing. Why? It's because people here are willing to push the boundaries. They're willing to question why things are the way they are, and they're open-minded about new ideas. There is always the burden of proof too. Can't just walk in and claim something that upsets the status quo without providing proof. On some forums, all that is needed is for something to merely look good before it attracts a cult following without any burden of proof. This is part of what makes XS a good community. It does try to separate out the wheat from the chaff. Some may argue that XS does it a little too aggressively, that there should be a more open-minded attitude. I agree, there is some measure of truth to that, but if we look at the consequences of a less rigorous burden of proof, we only need to look at various other forums where it's all become about the bling, and not about the zing. There's enough forums that cater to bling. At XS, bling is a secondary aspect to performance. It'd be fair to say that many here would put a dog turd on their CPU if it could be proven to help cool their CPU better. That's not so much of a bad thing though. XS members will go for bling, but it had better perform first. That just raises the bar. Manufacturers can't just release trash dressed up with a ribbon and expect it to receive praise at XS. That's good. That's good for water-cooling as a whole because it reduces the amount of trash in the market.

Those are my perceptions on what XS stands for, and what makes it what it is.

So what does Cathar get out of participating, and what does he want here? That's seems a fair question to ask since many have thrown my name into the hat in previous posts. Primarily it's because XS is one of only a few places where I feel that the forum's goals are compatible with mine. What are my goals? First and foremost, I want to see what the limits are. There's probably not a single night that I don't fall asleep thinking about how something can be impoved in water-cooling. Now those improvements may not just be out-and-out performance based, but focus on blending performance with practicality for the common user. I am heavily concerned with efficient & user-friendly water-cooling. Things like: Smaller tubing is more user friendly - so how small can we go before it becomes an issue? How much (full-time) fan noise will people generally tolerate, and how can we obtain the best possible performance within that limitation? Smaller pumps consume less power and are generally quieter - so how can we best design a system and our waterblocks such that we can best take advantage of them, and yet not see any noticable performance impact? Of course there's the general issues of: How do we make pumps, waterblocks, radiators, fans, tubing, fittings, and whatever else better? What are the pros/cons of all considerations?

XS is a place where I can explore all of those aspects and receive some good feedback, and be questioned without excessive nitpicking. That may seem like an odd thing to say, but I'm a slightly sloppy engineer. Some of the ideas I come up with are a bit out there, and many times I've had the super-rigorous engineer types demand a burden of theoretical proof to the 6-th degree. I'm quite happy to explore things to the 3rd degree, and after that point take a "suck it and see" attitude. Theory is all well and good, but at some point we have to just test the damn ideas out and see if they work. While many may think I'm a heavily theoretical sort, they'd be wrong. I'm only lightly theoretical. I do the theory based upon what's been proven, measured, and ratified pretty thoroughly. Some may argue that some of my postulations are all theory, but I deal in theory to a point where I know it's going to be accurate within 5-10%. After that point, I test. When I mathametically present something, I am extremely confident that should it be tested that it'll be shown to be true within that 5-10% margin of error. Why do I know this? Because I do tests all the time. I don't post the results of my tests too much, because they are generally specific to a single setup or configuration. I like to test things and then provide theoretical guidelines that everyone can benefit from, that everyone can apply to their scenario, that will benefit the widest range of people. When you see theory from me, it's theory that's got testing behind it. It's not theory that needs testing to prove that it's true. I've already proven most of it through testing before-hand. There's always some margins of error, and the odd extrapolation, and that's where the excessive nitpicking only serves to confuse and drive people away. It ceases to become helpful any more.

My goals are to push the boundaries of what's accepted or possible, and push them all the time. I will also challenge people to think about what they believe, and will provide evidence where needed to back up my argument, rather than just mouth off hot air. XS, to me, is a place where I feel that this is well received. There are a number of individuals here who profess to be anti-establishment and clash with me, which seems odd to me, because I am constantly questioning the status quo and challenging the establishment, otherwise how will things ever improve? I guess that the difference between me and them is that rather than try to prove what they're saying or have an actual point to what they're saying, it would seem that they're wholly deluded that they are somehow contributing in a meaningful fashion. After establishing where they're coming from, I just ignore such people, because they waste time and energy.

Another important aspect of XS is that even the negatives can become positives. One such example is the recent thread on the Koolance radiators. Some aspects of that discussion has caused me to revisit some areas of radiator design in a whole new light, not because of the Koolance radiator, but because I started analysing the results deeply, and in doing so, that brought about a greater understanding in me of how some aspects work that I had overlooked before. As a result, I've come up with plans for a greatly improved radiator design. Without XS being here, I wouldn't have likely thought as heavily about it as I did.

XS has its good points, and its bad points, but overall it adds up to a general positive place with a good attitude that is providing the cross-pollination of enthusiasts that drives the water-cooling hobby fowards, and if it continues to do that, then I don't see a thing wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by Top Nurse

only a 1-2 C difference. So so much for the math, heh?

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You fail to understand the very essence of XS. Seeking for the best performance. IDK... but most of us are seeking those 1-2 C difference for the better (=cooler temps) way not the other way :confused: :ROTF:

If it's proved some products performs better than others. Then we just use those parts :shrug:
Creativity without knowledge/talent could hurt the performance sometimes.

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Originally Posted by sc00p

You fail to understand the very essence of XS. Seeking for the best performance. IDK... but most of us are seeking those 1-2 C difference for the better (=cooler temps) way not the other way :confused: :ROTF:

If it's proved some products performs better than others. Then we just use those parts :shrug:
Creativity without knowledge/talent could hurt the performance sometimes.

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Spot on, couldn't have said it better myself. :up:

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Originally Posted by Top Nurse

Actually I do. The thing that cracks me up is that one day, not to long ago, those who used smaller tubing were called stupid. All the while those who used smaller tubing were saying "hey this ain't right and we have seen it with our own eyes on our rigs." Everyone calls them liars and charlatans till one day Cathar posts that we were right and that there really was only a 1-2 C difference. So so much for the math, heh?

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The funny thing is that most of us here will chase that 1-2C. You may somehow find vindication in Cathar's post, but he basically quantified the exact amount of the change in size. Tubing size doesn't matter much to me as the quality of the components in a loop. I believe that leads towards more drastic changes in temps rather than ones tubing size. So please don't try to pass off Cathar's test as vindication on why "Math is bad and experimentation is best."

Your trolling is atrocious.

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Theory is great as it gives us avenues to explore. However, theory will never replace real life experimentation. So next time someone says it ain't so then you might want to give them the benefit of the doubt. :)

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Theory is nothing with experimentation and vice versa. However, theory can easily guide one on what is practical and what is impractical and give the rough guidelines of what to expect.

Your posts reek of trolling and flame baiting. I have no idea how you think I'm invested in Swiftech. If I was, you'd be damn sure I'd be praising Swiftech at every step of the way. Instead, you can easily search posts where Gabe and I spar over the use of Aluminum, even if its plating standards are far above and beyond what other manufacturers go to. Your deliberate twisting and spinning of what I said about the ENTIRE WC'ing economy overall is pretty blatantly obvious and very much pathetic.

Let me amend my list on why XS is so great:

#35238 Because people like you are in the minority. People whom will use every opportunity to flame bait, spin, push their propaganda for the sole reason of making themselves feel important. See [H] and what has become of it due to people like yourself whom have turned the forum into Top Nurse's kitty litter box with attention seeking posts.

The less people like you in the world, the better off it is. I was never this cantankerous until you and rick reared their ugly heads choosing to flame, flame bait, troll, and push their propaganda at the expense of others.

DUDE you guys.

Im getting tired of the flames. Seriously it ruins a lot of threads.

If you have a problem with TOP NURSE, i suggest you just ignore her. Dont be starting up more issues and later having IFMU pwn all of you guys.

Also, this forum is turning out to be more and more like [H] Which is seriously sad.

So can we please jump back on topic, and enough with the insults and flames.


What this forum means to me:

1. Its a great source of info, that we can all pool together with tons of vendors that can help members first hand.
2. We have great people, and i seriously have a lot of fun talking to a lot of you guys.
3. Great place for newbies to get info, as long as they skip the tons of flames in the middle.
4. Also a great place to show off new designs and ideas. Also theres people that will do crazy stuff just to see if it will work, and then we all mimic when it does. See sig on scott. :rofl: