Hardly. TAT (Intel's Thermal Analysis Tool) will get a dual core hotter than anything else can... but the bummer is it only works on dual cores. Gets The cores some 15C hotter than FAH can.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
Printable View
Hardly. TAT (Intel's Thermal Analysis Tool) will get a dual core hotter than anything else can... but the bummer is it only works on dual cores. Gets The cores some 15C hotter than FAH can.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
Did you guys see this description?
=================
The Apogee™ GTZ is Swiftech's new flagship water-block. While it shares the same name with its predecessors, it also leaps beyond the GT and GTX performance charts thanks to an entirely new design that pushes and refines both thermal and mechanical specifications to the limits of today's technology. Thermal design of the cooling engine combines the benefits of direct coolant impingement over the CPU area with an entirely new copper base plate design which is primarily characterized by a pin matrix composed of 225 µm (0.009") micro structures. This results in a 20% improvement in thermal resistance compared to the Apogee™ GTX. Mechanical design of the copper base plate is optimized for Intel socket 775 and 771 and features a topographically mapped CPU contact area which results in a 75% and up to 300% improvement in TIM joint thermal resistance compared to the Apogee™ GT/GTX series. It should be noted that other types of sockets (AMD socket F, AM2, 940) may also benefit from the enhanced contact area to a lesser extent. An enhanced tool free retention system using thumb-nuts paired with a universal 775 motherboard back-plate also guarantees high quality, safe and repeatable mounts.
- The Apogee™ GTZ is shipped with an Intel® Core™ 2 (socket 775) compatible hold-down plate and complies with socket 775 keep-out specification, thus guaranteeing compatibility with all socket 775 type motherboards.
=================
Good find! So from that description, it'll have a refined pin-matrix (ala GTX/Fusion, but improved), but also utilise impingement over the centre patch (similar to a nozzled fusion?).Quote:
Originally Posted by hotdun
Inseresting stuff:yepp:
Maybe but it doesnt on my x3110 or Q66.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Plus they pass all test but F@H after 2 days.
With givin OC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotdun
Nice find!..
Man .009", that's like copper hair! This is getting very interesting...:D
interesting that they seem to have made the block for 775/771, I wonder how that will impact performance on Nehalem (can't see buying a block now that won't perform well with the next upgrade).
The current blocks MORE than cover the IHS so I don't see an issue with the bigger IHS on Nehalem, just will need a new mount plate or the current one drilled for the new hole spacing..Quote:
Originally Posted by jkresh
:ROTF::ROTF::ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheckQuote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
Don't skim a post from nikhsub...read the entire thing, read it twice. This is one guy among a few here in the LC section that when they speak, you listen.
"topographically mapped CPU contact area"
What does this thing come bowed?
Any current blocks with comparable pin size, i.e. 0.009" ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Im not knockin him.
But it still doesnt change the fact that the SMP client is the
hardest stress test on MY CPU.
You do know a x3110 is a dualcore and a Q66 is a quad core dont you?
Doh! My bad, I thought only the Xeon eXXXX's were duals.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
I've got my fingers crossed that it's that special IBM micro cross matrixing that increases TIM spread and increases thermal efficiency. Of course I can wish and hope lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by hotdun
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
Well the x3110 is basically an E8400.
There is also an x3350 (something er other) which is the
equivelent to the Q66:shrug:
The thermalright XWB-01 probably has the finest pins of the blocks I have on hand, it's probably in the neighborhood of that dimension or under .010" anyhow. But the TR is made from what appears to me, some sort of copper sheet method, where they stamp out the ultra fine pins and stack alternating sheets of pins, no pins, pins, etc, and then it's soldered to the base.Quote:
Originally Posted by hotdun
Trying to machine or cast something that fine would be very difficult.
Where did you find that introduction anyhow? I can't find it on their site..
Whoa, something like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by silverphoenix
============
"The clever bit is the layout of the channels. According to Big Blue boffins, the system uses a hierarchical network of pathways not unlike tree branches or human blood vessels. Bigger canals feed into smaller tributaries, down into a narrower rivers and streams.
http://regmedia.co.uk/2006/10/26/ibm_paste_1.jpg
IBM claimed the channels allow the thermal paste to spread more completely and more thinly (see above), improving its ability to conduct heat away from the chip and through to a heatsink, fan, cooling pipe or liquid-filled radiator. The paste is essential to allow the chip to maintain contact with its cooler even though the gap between the two devices changes as they both undergo thermal expansion and contraction."
============
Looking around, I found this too: LINK
I think I just had an accident...
Ya, I was reading your review on your website and saw you mention that....interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I found the GTZ description on this random website here: LINK
Woah i remember reading about that IBM thing but had forgotten about it. I wonder...
Not at all, it's just a bowed base, a "convexo-concave" one, in order to match as good as possible the deformed shape induced by the hold-down socket plate and an original IHS.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverphoenix
OCCT 2.x in CPU mode uses same algorithm as prime95, but it is much more optimized and better multithreading. The FFT are iterations from 8-64k in OCCT while Prime95 stops at 32k (could be a plus or less as 64k will be out of the CPU cache)Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
OCCT v2.x in CPU mode in my comparisions testing will give the same temp as Prime95 small FFT but it will be reached much quicker.
Using OCCT in custom mode is a bad idea. It will make iterations between the CPU mode and the RAM mode at regular intervals. You can see it with an oscilloscopic temp curve on the cores (OCCT 2.x I talk about)
F@H will make a stress on the whole system, including the RAM and NB. Hangs ups won't be CPU only related. And F@H can't load a CPU hotter than Prime95. Also, far better than F@H at loading the whole CPU-NB-RAM system is OCCT v2.x in RAM mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
Linpack could be a great tool, but only in its 64bit edition. The 32bits edition, in my testings, doesn't stand up to OCCT or Prime95, even with the excessive heat generated.
Finally, I'm not sure TAT really gives so much heat. I thought it was some "software simulation" of a 100% TDP state of the CPU, where all other programs, including Prime95 won't exceed maybe the 80-85% TDP of the CPU
All this was largely discussed in the "Intel" subsection of the forum. Maybe it's better to continue debating there if you like. Just make a search before. there are great topics discussing all this and whereI also posted comparision curves
Well, you're almost right.......Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
The Xeon socket 775 cpus are arranged as this:
The X30xx's are Conroe cpus
The X31xx's are Wolfdale cpus
The X32xx's are Kentsfield cpus (like with the Q6600....the Xeon equivalent is the X3220)
The X33xx's are Yorkfield cpus
Is this going to be a Intel only block :shrug: Not one mention of anything AMD or how anything preforms on anything AMD is there absolutely no interest in AMD at all? :shocked:
How the might have fallen. :shakes:
No, it will iterate between 8-64k, I confirmed this with the author, no way to fix it. I participated in the beta debugging on HFR forums...Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoffey
But as you can see, using small iterations won't affect temps of the CPU at all since the load on processing units will be the same with OCCT. It is optimized for that. I can confirm the CPU temps curves will be linear at a maximum heat
Yeah im not gonna debate anymore, but SMP stresses my cpu only.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny_ftm
Almost 0 ram usage according to windows taskmanager.
Howdy Gabe! That looks distinctly LGA775 only... what about Nehalem/Bloomfield? Launching a 775-only block just a month or so before LGA1366 is officially lanched seems a bit odd?Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Wow, this really carries some weight if the manufacturer recommends & now does this themselves. I guess I'll be inspecting my Apogee GT & CPU heatspreader closely when I do some loop work in a couple days to WC my first GPU. I have some Apogee homework to catch up on... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Yes, I can confirm you this for sure, from the author. OCCT is a stability test, not meant to be a heat generator only. If it runs only one iteration, it won't catch system errors effiecientlyQuote:
Originally Posted by mcoffey
Back to GTZ:
- the day is getting to its end, still no GTZ :rolleyes:
- At Gabe: Will it be even possible to upgrade it to Nehalem? The socket holes spacing are much distant than LGA 775. So it will need not only a backplate, but also a new top :confused:
im pretty sure most block makers will sell a separate hold down plate for nehalem when its launchedQuote:
Originally Posted by jonny_ftm
Must See Internal Pics :slobber:
Ok, it won't be 30/07 :mad:
Good night
take a chill pill bro, maybe he'll post it at 23:59 =P
FYI, I was fortunate enough to get one of these on the way also..:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrustSSC
I always thought that the GTX with the copper top was one hell of a great looking block.
So a stepped base and some really intricate/fine mesh-like copper stuff on the inside (or something along those lines).
Looking forward to it :)
Maybe it'll be good enough to get me back into WC, not that I ever use my desktops any more :-/
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Hi all,
I am currently in the market for a new WB and trying to look into the best product came across this thread, and started reading through the posts eagerly to see some test data and analysis...
I have gotten as far as this post and have been following the conversation with interest...
I have to say that what Gabe has said on this point has been correct from the beginning, and that if a reviewer is to be compensated in any form, then that compensation should come from a source with no affiliation to/with any manufacturers who provide materials/products to be reviewed, but from the beneificiaries of the rreviewer...
However this also then passes a burden onto the reviewer who might then feel obligated to provide results for those people who have provided compnesation to receive those results....
In other words I think what Gabe suggested was some kind of subscription part of the site where subscribing users, having paid a fee, could gain access to the reviewers results, and that the subscription fee's would be passed to the reviewing members..... or maybe could be collected and distrubuted to the approved reviewers on a per review basis....
But the situation arises then that subscribing users having paid a subscription to be able to access review data, if for whatever reason reviews cannot be submitted in a timely fashion, then would some subscribing users then feel dissatisfied with the service they have paid for.... to put it another way... the work currently udertaken by Martin et al, is at the moment unrewarded other than with the gratitude of a close knit community here at the XS forums.... I have to say I am a relatively new member, and if I'm honest I feel that I am benefiting greatly from the information that is catalogued on these forums..... I for one would be happy to pay a small subscription fee, for the privelage of being able to have access to the experience and aid that can be found here....
Though truth be told back when I was a beginner at all this, I most likely would have justc clicked away to another site..... so its a really difficult area to address...
What I think I would suggest is a kind of special access area that is provided for users who pay a subscription fee, and that maybe the particular area have a free to view list of: currently available reviews, author of the review, and maybe users ratings of the review as an 'x out of 5' star rating scheme..., and that the special access area also have a one-time access smaller subscription fee for a 24-hr period to a section with only the latest review, or review of their choosing........ so that users only interested in a particular review are able to decide whether or not they want to pay to gain access to that review, based on the knowledge of who has carried out the review etc...
Again this would however be placing perhaps an unwanted burden on the likes of Martin et al, to feel an obligation to provide reviews, and adding pressure on them.....
So I have another suggestion, and that is for a user scoring scheme in conjunction with a user subscription to be renewed on an annual basis that would be accumulated into a funds pool for the forum, that would be administered by a reputable and long-standing senior member, or site administrator...... and for each review that a reviewer contributes, and that other users rate at say 3-4 out of 5, or some other way of showing approval for the review........ that the site admin provide a pre-approved amount to the review submitter, from a pool of the accumulated subscription fee's....
The amount paid for each review needn't be a huge amount of money, as I'm sure that poeple like Martin and others would be appreciative of any gesture of thanks for their work, that might be of assistance to them in subsidising a little of the expense they incur.
This would leave the reviewers free of any burden, would leave manufacturers out of the rewarding scheme, reviewers woud get rewarded based on the quality of the review submitted by them, and also by the gratitude of the Forum User Base...., and the remainder of the forums would still be accessible to non-subscription paying members...!!!!
Anyway with all that said I'm going to continue readin the rest of the thread and gain from the insights posted here...!!!!!
Just wanted to add my 2c's worth....!!!!! :p::):):up:
PS: Wonder if Gabe or anyone else can advise if this is going to come with a AM2 mounting plate, or if one can be purchased optionally... the WB is avaialbe now for pre-order at this site: http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showpr...odid=WC-032-SW and it says that AM2 etc would also see possible benefits from the newly mapped surface....but theres no mention of a compatible AM2 mounting kit, or an option of pruchasing one.... I really want o place my order, but need to know this first...!!!!
TIA
Nice post kazgirl, there's definately some good ideas in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazgirl
Now, it's around 10.30am here in OZ (July 31st), which means the evening is quickly dissapearing over in the good 'ol US of A, and no internal shots to speak of? :shrug:
getting kind of late for release on the 30th, (1:30 left on the east coast), is this block releasing today?
He's not obligated to release any product at any time for any reason.
He's also on Pacific Standard Time, not Eastern Standard Time. So, its at least two more hours till midnight where he is.
Just relax.
Just my :2cents: here on the "paid tester being paid by the beneficiaries of their work" thing. If a review of a certain product is good enough (favorable), it will spread by word of mouth at various forums such as this one, that product will then start to fly off shelves at a pace that only enthusiasts can make happen and then who becomes the beneficiary?.....the manufacturer.....that's who. It's a double edged sword stuck in the middle of a mine field in the middle of a war zone. Again, it's just my :2cents:, so no need to beat me over the head. :nuts:
Hell ya, I love the looks of this block and can't wait to see how it performs. Almost got the SNBW-REVA for my NB but wasn't sure it was worth the extra cash just for some bling. Can't wait for the reviews :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Yea I agree, the manufacturer makes the money not us; I don't see how the users should have to pay in any way other than with donations.
Here's another idea: Martin could have advertising on his site, similar to the business model of SPCR (www.silentpcreview.com). I think that'd be a pretty viable route if the traffic is decent. Martin has been expanding his site quite a bit, so I think it's possible. People "all over the world" would go to Martin's site, not just XS subscribers. SPCR proves that this model is viable because they have established a platform of trust. I think Martin has that trust and reputation with the community, and he can pull it off.
Well thats precisely what you'd be doing with a small subscribtion for access to not just the one review, but all reviews by all reviewers for the entire year, you'd be making a donation, to show your appreciation of the work that rewviewers have put in, of course if you don't want to make such a donation then you don't have to, you can still browse and use the remainder of the forums as usual, just not have access to the reviews that have been submitted... Maybe an annual subscription of $10.00 thats not a lot of money, but if enough users were to subscribe, then that money could be pooled and perhaps a set amount per review could be distrinbuted to a reviewer based on the users scoring of the review submitted, this would be to prevent all and sundry from submitting reviews of no significance, so that only reviews rated by users as meeting a certain quality would receive the set amount from the pool of funds available.Quote:
Originally Posted by migueld
But ssome people aren't interested in reading all reviews about everything but are perhaps more interested in reading a particular review on a particular component..... thats where the idea of a reduced one time only subscription comes in, say if you are considering replacing a specific component and want to read a review on just that....there could be say a $1.00 one time access fee, that permits access to the subscribed area for a 24hr period, or for limited perid of time.... You could see a list of available reviews before deciding, and guage from users ratings of the review based on the score provided by them for that review, before deciding whether or not you think it may be worth reading or not....
You'd be making a small donation towards the pool that is used to reward reviewers for their time spent and effort made in providing us with an unbiased honest evaluation of the product in question, somethng which is not eay to come by these days....
I do understand and agree that yes, if a particular product is rated highly by a reviewer that the manufacturers ultimately profit as a result, however it swings both ways, if a product is rated as being poor by a reviewer then that same product will most likely sit on the shelves...Quote:
Here's another idea: Martin could have advertising on his site, similar to the business model of SPCR (www.silentpcreview.com). I think that'd be a pretty viable route if the traffic is decent. Martin has been expanding his site quite a bit, so I think it's possible. People "all over the world" would go to Martin's site, not just XS subscribers. SPCR proves that this model is viable because they have established a platform of trust. I think Martin has that trust and reputation with the community, and he can pull it off.
so if any manufacturer were to consider sponsoring such a reviewer in the manner of advertisments on the users site etc, then of course the impartiality of the review falls under question, which then obviates any benefits of the review in the first place.... by charging or receiving money from any manufacturers for placing an advertisement on their site, the reviewer would essentially be endorsing that manufacturer, so thats clearly not a viable option...!!!
And we're not talking about Martin alone here, there are other reputable and appreciated users who submit their reviews here, some of which may not have sites of their own dedicated to their reviews, so how would they be rewarded....!!!!
How many of you buy a car without first having paid for it to be checked over, or maybe even buying a magazine to read up on the attributes of a boat, if your buying a dog you pay the vet to check it out first etc... you don't even think twice about it, but yet, when it comes to similar for PC parts, you make a huge fuss about the possibility of not being able to access something without having to pay for it in some fashion..... :shrug::shrug:
Hi Andyc...
Thanks for clarifying your thoughts and feelings on the subject, I only stumbled into this thread whilst looking for data on the new GTZ block and after reading some of the earlier posts I got the impression that many users felt they wanted to show their appreciation for the work that you, Martin, Scott and others do, or that it should be rewarded in some fashion...
I feel the same thing myself, and just wanted to offer my own thoughts on the matter in response to the posts I have read in this thread.
It would be nice to know that users like myself can show appreciation for the work that you all do, that we ultimately benefit from, it saves us more in $$$/£££ from having to buy and try, and replace different components etc...
Somehow just saying Thank You in a post doesn't seem enough after all the hard work that you all put in, even if its a passionate hobby that you enjoy doing...!!!
I also appreciate that none of you should ever under any circumstances feel any obligation to carry out the testing and reviews you provide, and thats why I made the second sggestion above (in response to an earlier reply from Gabe who was in turn responding to others posts calling for some kind of renumeration from the manufacturers where he suggested that forum users initiate some kind of renumeration if thats what was felt), so that this kind of situation would not/could not occur...
I am sure that you are all aware of how much all your hard work and efforts are appreciated by all the forums users.... and I'm sure that I speak for everyone else when I say this.
I think at the end of the day though that if everyone is happy enough with the status quo, then there's no need to change anything....
Just wanted to say Thank You...!!!!:up::up:
The problem with the "24 hour access fee" is that there's nothing preventing someone from simply making a copy of every review on the board. Similarly the problem with a subscription board as you pointed out earlier is that the users return on investment is dependent on the reviewers providing timely reviews. Furthermore it then adds overhead on the board maintainers in trying to determine how "useful" particular reviews are so that the revenue can be distributed equitably to all the reviewers.
Because of all these problems, I think a simpler and more straightforward approach is to simply have paid reviews. You can think of it as buying a subscription to a single review. For instance, say Martin posts a review of a new CPU block. XS could put the review up and put a fee for viewing it, say a one time payment of $5 - $50 (whatever everyone decides is fair, would have to be worked out such that it's affordable, but sufficiently compensates the author). Once you've paid to read a review you can come back and read it anytime you want. The money then goes directly to the author of the review (or if it's a joint review to the authors divided as they agree when they post the review). I'm sure even it $5 a review martin could make a killing on here and would be more than amply rewarded for his efforts.
Now, for the problems with this idea. First, Martin is very good about comprehensive reviews, when he posts a review it's usually on a broad swath of products. With a pay per review system the temptation would be to break such all encompassing reviews into multiple reviews, one for each product (not saying martin would do this, I'm just playing devils advocate :up:). There's also the question then of when posting advice to other members who ask questions, do we respond with bits of knowledge we've obtained from one of the pay reviews, or do we post a link to the review and tell the person to buy it? On the one hand, by reading the review the knowledge has effectively been transfered to us, but on the other hand by redistributing that knowledge for free we're depriving the reviewer of compensation.
For what it's worth I mostly agree with MCoffey, I don't think subscription items are a good idea on here, my previous post was really just analyzing and offering suggestions on other posts. I do feel some sort of standards body such as ISO or UL needs to be established by the manufacturers jointly to provide guarantees of accuracy on reported figures, but that really has nothing to do with us or this board.
omg posts are starting to get long
and still no internal???
Seriously, I'm dying here....Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 (Bryan)
:welcome:
xtremesystems: home of the hype hype hype
wel , im not exactly dying but im really curious
I'm actually dying......so wtf, let's go here. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 (Bryan)
Oh sorry, I tend towards the verbose and pedantically accurate, and often grammatically obtuse, and apparently I'm not the only one ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 (Bryan)
:ROTF:
Back on topic, I too am anxious to see the insides of this thing, but if we keep raging on him about updates he's never going to give us a solid release date again :D.
Let's play the silent game.
Ready, go...
lol,
oh :banana::banana::banana::banana:, i lost :(:
Dude, you suck at this game....Quote:
Originally Posted by 71 (Bryan)
What? Why is everyone looking at me like that?
So any pics of the internals yet?
I think the release has been pushed back to September 7th. (Day after my birthday, hehe.) Swiftech page says "7-9-08 New products release", which is either September 7th or July 9th, but we're a little past July 9th, so... :(
The 7-9-08 release date was for the mosfet heatsinks directly underneath it.
Oh. *sheepish*
Well... we did all the hyping.
:rofl::up::rofl::nuts::eleph:Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa
can I rate this thread negative stars????
[IMG]http://swiftechisepicfail.com/apogeeGTZ.jpeg[/IMG]
:ROTF::ROTF::rofl:
That's perfect!
:rofl: I think that might be my brother holding up the "Pichers"..lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by _G_
I have access to information that you folks don't and quite frankly I'm very excited about this block. Hang tight there everyone and stay tuned. There'll be details coming when Swiftech is ready to release them.
Yeah, just in case any of us were about to stop checking this thread every five minutes... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
Oooh you can pm me and tell me, honest I won't tell anyone...!!! :yepp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
Well maybe my friend Sara....and well she might tell Krissy.... but they wouldn't tell anyone else.... they wouldn't even know what I was talking about :rofl::rofl:
I do wish they would hurry up and release some info though, I need to know if there'll be an optional AM2 mounting kit for it..... if not then I need to look for something else..... maybe an EK Supreme....????
omg a gurl thats excited about a water block?!?!?
I don't know where I was going with that but it seemed like someone should write that at one point.
Wait.. this isn't the WoW message boards.. >_>
where the hell did gabe go, he was here a few days ago and now with all the hype, he vanished again?!?!?!
He doesn't owe anyone anything.
he doesn't owe us anything, srry for sounding negative in my last post, that wasnt my intention, but it seems that he only came for a short time just to create some hype
Hehehe... is he the FIRST manufacturer on here to throw hype? hahaha...
I'll end it there before I start a great riot {no names needed here... you know whom I'm talking about... he even sends over a dozen of his lackies to spew the hype}
Hit and run guerilla tactics lol
bad :down:
and run like hell when we find out??Quote:
Originally Posted by RealRedRaider
Did he even mention a specific product release date?
Why would you get so torn up about it if the product is not released yet ?
isnt that called false advertisement?
How is that false advertising? Did he misrepresent the capabilities of the block? Did he overcharge you?
Not a penny has changed hands. You have no rights to such claims.
maybe that was the wrong word, by that i mean that he gave us a false release date
and i know that there are alot of people crazy enough to stop a whole build just because of an upcoming new block/part
30 July as product release date? Or 30 July when he does the show and tell on XS ?Quote:
Originally Posted by RealRedRaider
The former has bearing. The latter has no bearing. Hate to point out the obvious, but XS isn't a proxy for an internet release.
A product is released when its available for purchase.
srry for being a pita but im just a little pissed (personal stuff)
You? You'll talk their ears off and beat them verbally into submission LOL
The Eskimoes (Arabs) will go "please, please... we've heard enough... we'll buy that special ice (sand) from you at $100 a pound" lol
it bet it'll be red sand :P
Wow you guys are far too obsessed about this..
Its a block.. that will be released sometime in the future.. and the EK supreme v2 will be out.. and then fuzion v3.. and on and on.. who cares? if you need a block now, buy one now
If he lost your business because he didn't post info soon enough for you to make a decision, thats his loss... move on.. life goes on
I just heard it comes with your choice of a Panda Fur or Lion mane covered backplate. This is the reason for the delay...having trouble finding enough pandas to meet the initial release stock.
:confused: :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by RealRedRaider
I wish I could be cool like you and quote myself in my own signatures.
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bojamijams