Thanks John,Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
That's a much easier format and gives you the individual charts as well.
I copied a link in the OP.:up:
Printable View
Thanks John,Quote:
Originally Posted by jmke
That's a much easier format and gives you the individual charts as well.
I copied a link in the OP.:up:
thanks!
I'll see if I can come with a way to group the result charts to make them easier to read, with 30 different line/logo types, it easy to lose track:)
If you're looking to buy the Scythe Gentle Typhoon the only place I could find if for sale is:
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=35020&...facture=Scythe
A good alternative is the Scythe Slipstream especially if you undervolt.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835185060
Scythe GT's also found here.
edit: I almost forgot to say "Thank you Martin"...Glad you are back.
I forced Tom@chilled to stock the 1450rmp variant and the 1850rpm :)
http://www.chilledpc.co.uk/shop/prod...oducts_id=1170
http://www.chilledpc.co.uk/shop/prod...oducts_id=1169
Hello Martin !
Thanks for the spreadsheet of the fans!
...... first results :
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...3&postcount=77
Unfortunately they miss the data on "your" fan Yate Loon D12S M
I have another favor to ask you.
These are the data of your test on the WBs :
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/..._Immagine1.jpg
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg
You could give me the values : "Water To Air Delta" marked with " ? "
Thanks :D
Why two Gentle Typhoon AP 15 ?
(1) and (2) ? :D
I think its first and second round or he tested 2 different fans. But I think he made 2 tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBZ
It was just a testing check on level of repeatability in testing. It was the same fan, but it give you a general idea what sort of testing error I had.:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBZ
You have PM, the file is too large to attach, but I can email you the data if you send me your addy.:up:
:D thanks! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
************************************************** *************************
Which is the best equation RPM > CFM ?
The classical Y = a X^2 + bX what it intercepts the point of coordinates 0-0 :
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg
Or the equation that is tangent to the X axis in the point of coordinates 0-0?
Y=aX^2
This asks for an artifice to be traced ....
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg
I prefer the second.
This seems to correct better possible errors.... the two curves are more neighbors
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg
************************************************** *************************
We finally see how much it engraves the error
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...xxxxxxxxxx.jpg
0,1 degrees to 1200 RPMs!
if we consider the average...
the error goes down to 0,05 degrees!! :up:
Great work! Very nice!:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBZ
To Martin and the other folks,
Thanks Martin for the excellent work and efforts. I just could not find in the stickies or in this thread anything about the difference between using 120X25 and 120X 38 on radiators. As I am about to build my system, and thanks to your charts I narrowed down my choice, but I don't know which to use, 25mm or 38mm fans?and what effect would each have on the flow? I am probably going for a Feser monsta, to cool 2 blocks ( cpu+gpu) and another seperate loop for nb, sb and other chips.
The only real difference is the sound tone which you can't measure with a noise meter, you have to listen to the videos to pick that up. Generally the 38mm fans have a lower pitch noise, but also the ones with the larger hub size tend to make more ticking type noises at lower RPM levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherif846
I would strongly suggest that you listen to the videos and compare like CFM levels. You can do this by starting two videos in two different browser windows and use the pause/play and slider youtube tools. Then just adjust the sliders and play areas where they have about the same CFM level and that will at least give you a good CFM vs Sound Quality comparison.
You also need to consider the active area of the fan for bottom line performance. That's how much area the fan moves air. Some of them with larger hub motors will have more dead spots on the radiator than others, so CFM isn't everything, but a place to start. I hope to do a little radiator heat load type testing on a few more fans soon, but I'm still waiting on a pump to do that testing at the moment.
Anyhow, play around with the videos, that's probably the most important tool to use here.:up:
hi martin great testing as usual, thanks a lot
i was wondering if you ever test those more and more commun 140mm fan that attached like 120mm one and if it brings any benefits compare to classic 120mm, thank you
ie :
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/ac...sl12_main.html
http://www.noctua.at/images/computex...tua_nf_p14.jpg
Wow, great review! Very helpful dude.
Since you mentioned it several times in your post, I'm tempted to download all all your videos and use them to generate a noise frequency chart. Not sure if I have the time though, nor am I sure if it'll be truly helpful.
Glad it helps. I'm not really interested in those types of fans due to their lack of seal for radiator applications. You'd have to build some sort of shroud I think. Anyhow, I bought a couple of other fans I have sitting here waiting, but I can't seem to muster any more energy to test them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor2262
I think I had my filling of fans for a while. As with any testing it gets a bit drab and boring after about the first 5 tests or so.
Maybe later I'll play around again, but for now I'm up to my elbows in grease working on engine rebuilding again.. Horsepower & Speed are something I can never seem to grow tired of..:D
That would be cool. Maybe just try it on a couple of fans to start out with. I'd be interested in the frequency response too.:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by S_G
If I'm not mistaken, you need a 38mm on a radiator. In general a 25 vs 38 should be about the same in terms of CFM vs dB in open air, but when you have obstructions like in a radiator, Martin showed that the 38mm fans really shine. Vapor did a test in open air and you can see that the 25mm fans do quite well there. Sure he didn't use as many 38mm fans so it's a little hard to tell, but looking at Martin's graph you can see that the 38mm fans stand out to the upper left in those CFM vs dB graphs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherif846
38mm fans's extra depth allow more fan blade design that increase static pressure. It's not like 25mm can't do it, but 38mm inherently have more capability to do so. When a fan is blowing through an obstruction, static pressure keeps the air going more. In terms of radiators, the higher fin density, the more critical a fan's static pressure is.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmo580
Hello I am fairly newb to this, but wow, nice work Martinm210, and hey I don't live too far from you; I live in Welches, OR; at the base of Mt. Hood. Anyhow, yikes, I just read this whole review and my head is spinning. :shocked: I am inclined to the GT, however I would like to know what you and others think of the AP-14 as it was not tested? I can only assume it would be that much quieter. Nice videos btw - those really helped. The GT had a more comfortable noise than the other fans I was interested in. I would guess the AP-14 is similar in sound but just a bit slower? However would it still perform decent enough for use in a rad set up? I plan on running two Feser X-Changer Triple 360 mm Extreme Performance Radiator - 15mm Spacing. Another concern of mine is that the GTs have a huge disc, and I worry about that creating a dead spot in the middle, as well as what it might do for static pressure. Sure the flow can be tested and graphed, but does air flow alone indicate actual performance for cooling a rad? I know you used a rad in your setup, I guess I am just concerned about it cooling equally without any dead spots. Any thoughts?
The AP-14 is the same as the AP-15 only 1450 RPM vs 1850 RPM. it moves a little less air. You are looking at fan controllers anyways, so I would just get the 1850s. They are not that loud as is. Those sound files put the mic right next to the fan, so that is as loud as they will ever be.
if you look at the numbers..the ap14 eats less than half the current...i don't think it can maintain that airflow..against the ap15...include the pressure too.Quote:
Originally Posted by millertime359
Yea, it doesn't move a lot of air. i got 2 of those 1450s in my other case. They still move some air, but you can tell the difference. That is why I would suggest the 1850s. If they are too loud, then get a fan controller. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacity
Check "Radiator Air Flow vs RPM" chart. At 1450 RPM the AP-15 moves about 25CFM through a RS120, according to it.
So 25CFM AP-14 vs 34CFM AP-15. That would mean AP-15 moves 36% more air in that test.
Correct me if im wrong (tired).
Oh and it appears there is a 2150RPM version:
http://catalog.nidec-servo.com/digit...pdf/D1225C.pdf
Yep, I live in po dunk southern Oregon. You're up there near Danger Den in Astoria, you should go give those good folks a visit some time.:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardenofwar
Good questions:
I never tried an AP-14, only the 15 so I couldn't tell you. I do know that with some of the fans that I have tested in the same family like the S-Flex, that there was enough difference between models that I wouldn't generalize too much. Each and every fan seems to have more of an individual character, so you almost need to try both side by side to ensure.
You are correct about the dead spot issue, it's another variable that influences what CFM level leads to bottom line radiator performance. The only way to eliminate that variable would be to test each and every fan on a radiator. The issue is time in testing, it's prohibitive to do the same on a radiator. The CFM flow bench style testing can be done very quickly. I could measure CFM levels almost instantly and because of that captured a data point from 4V to 12V at every volt. So that was 9 data points, and could be done in about 10 minutes.
30 fans translates to about 300minutes or around 5 solid hours of testing. Remounting and the rest accounted for more, so this testing of the data points really probably took me about 10 hours worth of testing.
Testing on a radiator is instead of taking 10 minutes, takes a good 60 minutes depending on the radiator delta and water volume. My radiator test rig has a large reservoir, so a single data point can take 90 minutes of testing time to ensure complete stabilization of the system and quality data.
So...Rad based testing would have taken 90minutes X 10 data points x 30 fans or 450 hours:eek: But wait, you'r still not done, because more than likely because of the fan power curves, those results may be slightly different over different types of radiators. In reality, you probably would need to run those same tests over each radiator brand....you could turn this into a lifetime effort that you'd never accomplish because there would continually be new fans.
Anyhow, that's why I used CFM based testing. It's no where near as complete in evaluating the bottom line performance as rad based testing of fans (which does also include dead spot effects), but it's a place to start and sort of a quick look effort which is more effort than I even wanted to do when I started in this mess. You're always more than welcome to tackle the effort yourself though..;)
I gave all of my fans to skinnee so I could rid myself of this nightmare...it felt quite good sending off that big box..lol!
I would always recommend that you go out and buy a couple of fans for yourself that you're trying to decide between and tinker with them. Use your own test to make your decision....that's the best thing to do..:up:
you almost got it...and thats what i was trying to point out... i've been waiting for the 2150 ...for quite sometime now..scythe never came back on me bout that...Quote:
Originally Posted by mozis
I wonder why they never released it. That might do nice on the high FPI rads. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondacity
I think the GT blade and fan was actually designed around the low RPM range at least from what I could read on the Servo Nidec site, I think they mentioned that somewhere. It's probably one of those things were one size does not fit all. The blade design is probably optimal for the lower speed range and it may struggle with the higher speed stuff.?Quote:
Originally Posted by millertime359
Who knows though. Take apart a couple of GTs and some higher speed motors and make your own fan..:up:
Wish i could, but still working on my random computer stuff collection. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Thank you and you know that is kind of what I expected. Don't get me wrong though I was not at all displeased with the awesomeness of your efforts and what you have put forth here. I would not have time for something even a quarter as good as what you have presented. It's obvious that your work is appreciated by many other too, thanks. I was just trying to get to the bottom of actual performance in cooling a rad, but it is starting to sound like a pipe dream, lol. I guess in this industry we hatch “tube” dreams instead of pipe dreams. Well I am going to go with the AP-15 and just hope for the best. Sounds like many of you here are very happy with it. I will just do as Millertime suggest and get a fan controller. Thanks guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Box arrived safely. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Now what the heck do I do with a all these single fans...
Ah hah! Thats it, I sense fan upgrades coming for my rigs. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I say that you should build a case that houses all the fans in that box. :up:
That's exactly what I was thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnee
:rofl:
If nothing else, gut them and make some shrouds out of them, with your rad collection growing, you could shroud up both sides of every one of them..!!:D
Martinm210, I read your tests on the XFC 480 and the Single rad push/pull with or without a shroud.
I recently saw a Koolance 480 shroud and wondered what difference if any, in the performance of a 480 rad with 4 individual shrouds when compared with an all-in-one 480 shroud?
I'm at the drawing stage of a scratch build and planning to use a FAN-SHROUD-RAD-SHROUD-FAN setup with each of the 4 x 480 rads or with 2 x 480 and 2 x 360 rads.
This was my one and only test and it was done on an RS120 with Yate Loon D12SL12 fans.
http://martin.skinneelabs.com/img/Fa...3-38mm2000.png
The difference between push/pull and push/pull with shrouds on both sides was pretty small only .3C over 7.6C which is only 3%. Keep in mind this was testing with a particular set of fans on one particular radiator. It's probably going to behave differently for your setup. I would expect fans with larger hubs like 38mm fans would see more gain from a shroud, etc.
Fortunately, there's really no negative to using a shroud other than space. My recommendation is if you've got the space and the means, shrouds are always worthwhile. Nobody has really documented it, but there may be some sound quality benefits as well. Just don't expect miracles, .3C on a 1C resolution sensor is not even consider measurable for your average user. You have to appreciate the microscopic gain for what it is.
Hope that helps...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Thanks for that but I think I didn't explain my question very well.
Take two 480 rads, one of the 480 rads is fitted with FOUR 120 shrouds, the other is fitted with ONE SINGLE 480 shroud. Do you think there would be any difference in the air movement and cooling between the rad fitted with four 120 shrouds and the rad with a single 480 shroud?
I never did any testing in that regard, but I would guess that a single shroud would do a small amount better than individual ones since it also helps remove dead spots behind the fan frames in addition to the hub of each fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by interDOS
Cathar's guide to fan shrouds:
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...ad.php?t=49874
Mentions (post #21) that adding an internal baffle to separate the chambers between fans increases the airflow. This suggests that 4 separate 120mm shrouds might be better, as the fans are not fighting against each other.
This thread:
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...=shroud+baffle
Suggests a 20% increase by using a baffle (which seems high to me!).
EDIT: yeah this info is old school... but the general principles shouldn't change, and I haven't seen any more recent testing.
Thanks for the info guys.
My planned scratch built system will have a Top section W: 700mm X D: 575mm X H: 490mm and a detachable bottom cooling section of W: 700mm X D: 575mm X H: 340mm. It's 700mm wide to accommodate 2 mainboards side-by-side in a divided chamber with the boards orientated in the horizontal position.
all that's doing is reducing air resistance before the fan. which usually increase the speed of the fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ascl
it's like putting to nexus beam air on one fan.
btw did anyone try those thin slip stream fans on anything? they look nice for tight spots.
To subtract the noise ambient from the total noise I have applied the following formula:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Noise Ambient + Noise Fan = A ; Noise Ambient = B ; Noise FAN = C
FORMULA:
C =10*LOG10((10^(A/10))-(10^(B/10)))
You gets the real noise of the fan
is it everything correct ??
all OK ??
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...320_xxxxxx.jpg
:rolleyes:
Regarding overall performance, would the San Ace 9G1212H1011/H101 still beat the Gentle Typhoon AP-15?
And what's the real deal of the SFlex-G vs. the GT AP-15? I'm really confused of the mixed comments in the thread. I'm more concerned of undervolting and fan CFM/Noise performance :)
And if a fan is performing superb in a raidator setup, does that automatically mean that it will also perform good as a case or heatsink fan?
Thanks.
could you guys tell me if this fan works to rad?
I think these fans have some specs like a joke
http://www.tacens.com/ventuspro.htm
Of course, though the GentleTyphoons might still have a better noise/performance ratio. Martin, are there any plans to test the newer 9G series San Ace H1011? You can easily get one from Chilled PC UK once they get them back in stock, and they'll even pin and/or sleeve it for you for a little extra. Would you feel that the improved static pressure and noise profile makes it worth adding to the charts?Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002
I got one from Chilled PC when they had them on stock. They will have them back around December 18. So with performance alone, the Gentle Typhoon doesn't have a chance against the 9G-H1011?
If you don't care about open or closed corners, then the 9G1212H101 is available at Newark :)
Hey guys,
Sorry no more tests from me.
Regarding the new San Ace, I'd suggest comparing curves from the old fans. If I recall, they provide curves for their products (as should all fan manufacturers IMHO).
Hey AndreaBZ,
Looks good from my limited knowledge of noise. I just chose to record actual recorded and keep ambient fixed. Pretty crude overall though, very low cost meter, close distance measurement, etc. I'm still not sure there is a way to really qantitatively evaluate noise of fans. I think it's really a bit of a lost cause, video or audio recordings of the same setup and relative qualitative evaluations by each user is probably the closest we can do.
Cheers!
Martin
Hey Martin!Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
I have made a Spreadsheet of some fans that you have tested.
" MLL ...Fans Spreadsheet " :D
http://www.pctunerup.com/up/results/...317_yyyyyy.jpg
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...00&postcount=1
Sinned that don't do other tests.:(
:up:
Personally I was thinking of Enermax Magma or Enermax Everest fans I don't know if anyone uses them in rad setups though. Personally those Yate Loons are too much crap imo. They are like budget stuff Like those Addo fans. Had them and hated them Noisy as hell due to crap material use. Sure Noctuas are for silence but the price is a bit much to add a bucketload of them ;)
Looking at doing a push/pull with a rad. Thinking of doing GT1850's or UK3 (undervolted), I would like the GT's because they are quiet and perform well. The UK 3000 would be nice to be able to run them around or a little lower than the GT's but still have the capability to crank them up if needed. Looks like it would be possible, any thoughts.
Get GTs.
I have Deltas, they seem to have about the same performance / noise ratio as GTs, but even undervolted the motor noise is pretty bad and really annoying.
38mm fans aren't worth it for 24/7 unless you're ready to put up with the noise.
Has anyone considered taking this data and making it a web form where people can select the fans they wish to use to compare? Something like how storagereview does it with harddrives.
The delta 25mm FFB1212EH at frozen are quiet and can levitate when turned up all the way. These things move some serious air but you'll need a beefy fan controller that can handle at least 30watts per channel. At 25mm there are no better fan in terms of CFM... At a little under half way the noise is nominal but still you'll hear it -- a fair trade off for the performance IMHO.
Quiet is a relative thing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinas
Can you make a recording, then the listener can decide.
No sign of the 2150rpm Scythe GT's
Just bumping this thread
bump....bump.....
:yepp:
Here is a video of the fan in action. No real attempt was made to get an accurate recording, but you can make a good judgement call on the "quite" factor from it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbD7MK12buY
While its not near as loud as some bigger, better Delta's, it is still way, way, WAY, louder than something like a GT 1850. But moving 150CFM per fan, I would expect it to be pretty loud. I bet it would be a great fan for a "monsta" rad if you just dont want the noise of the more powerfull Deltas.
thanks，just need that
I've got headache after trying to read those colorful charts. But good work.
Would it be possible to put this thread at Sticky. Because it gives all answers you need when you are choosing fan for the WC. Just idea, no need to do this.
Um. . .it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madidas
Ok, I just saw it. I`m new in this forum, so sorry that I bothered. Need to read more carefully those thread headings.
This is excellent! This is what I like to see. If I had the resources I could do this type of testing all day.
I was looking at getting a Panaflo FBA12G12* and did not realize that the 'U'(20-35CFM @ 1;05-1:26) would click like that when throttled down compared to the 'M' (20-35CFM @ 1:22-2:00). I was wondering if that is usually the case of high speed fans throttle down with a controller vs. a lower speed version of the fan at the same RPM/CFM or if the microphone used was exaggerating it.
I need 2 or 3 fans and wanted to try either the Panaflos, Thermalright TR-FDB or SanAces (if I could get my hands on one) since I could throttle them back when I want the system quiet, and still have pretty good airflow. These would be used in an Antec 300 and on my Noctua NH-U12P (where I see no difference with Push vs Push/Pull setups because there is a 140mm fan a couple inches away). The Gentle Typhoons look great as well but do not have the potential to move as much air as the other fans I mentioned.
Would it be fairly accurate to assume that at the end of the day the difference between a case that sounds like a jet turbine and a fairly quite case with GTs be maybe 5C at most? If so I'll just go for the GTs because that clicking gets on my nerves.
Nice result from the update Martin, I still like my San Aces better than my GT.