Maybe early BIOS woes. Are you running RAID?
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Alright chaps,
Having some issues pushing my Q6600 (G0) past 3.2ghz! its stable as can be at 3.2 (1.416v) but the minute I try to go above that it might boot to windows but it wont finish a 3Dmark06 bench or any of the benchmarks included with sisofts sandra.
CPU cooling is provided by an Arctic Freezer 7 and temps at 3.2ghz are around 36c and under load they hit about 48c.
Ram is G.Skill F2-8500CL5 (2x4gig kits)
CPU speed - 3221Mhz
Bus Speed - 358Mhz
Rated FSB - 1431Mhz
DRAM Freq - 536mhz
FSB:DRAM - 2:3
Everything in bios apart from ram/cpu voltage is set to auto.
Any advice or help would be more than welcome as im not a big overclocker and dont really know what all the options in bios will or wont do for my overclock.
PC spec:
Rampage Formula
Q6600
8gigs G.Skill F2-8500CL5
BFG 9800GX2
Creative X-fi plat.
PCP&C Silvener 750w
Lian Li A71 5x120mm fans
I don't remember where, but I do remember seeing there are problems with Raptors and recent and latest Asus mobo.
Damn, this upgrade buisness is always tricky. Can you post a link, I was just about to get this mobo & have raid0 150 raptors :eek:
Ive been playing around with my rampage formula for about am month or so now, and one thing that ive found is setting the FSB termination voltage up too high leads to instability issues after about 4-5 days (yes, days, you read that correctly).
this is with a newer X3110 (45nm penryn) as well as a Q6600 G0. I ran several benchmarks in those first few days, some for more than 24 hours, all passed with flying colors/excellent temps but then things got hairy in the middle of arena matches in warcraft, or even when i left WCG on constantly (which doesnt load as much as say Prime95 does)
after i stepped down the FSB termination voltage things really turned around... maybe just odd circumstances, but thats my experience so far.
I kinda agree with anandtech's claim of running the VTT voltage(aka FSB termination voltage in our case) no higher than 1.4v, but not with the across the board thing.
in your case you might manually set that manually to about .5-.7v lower than what you want, simply because the rampage formula overvolts that like mad.
Thanks for the info brinox, the VTT is set to auto right now, what do you reckon is a good point to start at? ie 1.2 or 1.3? And yea I have seen the info about the VTT burning out there CPU kinda made me wonder if I should even play with it?
I will take a look at the settings in a little bit really want to wait for new HSF to arrive before I take it any higher than 3.2 as the AF7 is good but I want air to be passed down from the heatsink and over the chipset heatsink to hopefully help with its cooling slightly.
Filllthee
I'll see what I can get out of my Rampage hopefully this weekend.
Ok then, I got my Rampage Formula up and running with an E8400 @ 4.2 GHz (9x467) and the 8 GB Corsair TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF PC2-8500, 5-5-5-15 RAM at 1121 MHz. It's Prime95 stable. Full system specs at bottom.
The only voltage I changed from Auto is the Vcore, which I set to 1.393V. CPU-Z (latest version) reports it as 1.352 at idle and 1.328 during Prime95. Not sure why that is though.
Leaving all the other voltages at Auto has me worried though, so would like some feedback on these numbers from the Bios hardware monitoring:
CPU Voltage: 1.344 (Manually set to 1.393 though)
CPU PLL Voltage: 1.616V
FSB Termination Voltage: 1.408V
DRAM Voltage: 2.256V (Is this a problem? The sticks are rated at 2.1V)
North Bridge Voltage: 1.600V
South Bridge Voltage: 1.056V
SB 1.5V Voltage: 1.504V
DRAM Controller Voltage REF: 1.136V
Any glaring problems? I don't want anything dying on me. :)
Full System Specs:
CPU: E8400
GPU: Evga 8800GTS (g92) SSC
RAM: Corsair Dominator TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF 8GB PC2-8500, 5-5-5-15
MB: Asus Rampage Formula (X48)
HD: 2x Samsung 750GB (32MB cache) in Raid 1
DVD: Samsung S203B
Cardreader: DeLock Multipanel 5.25"
PSU: Enermax Modu82+ 625W
Fan controller: mCubed T-Balancer bigNG
Fans: 2x Noiseblocker XL series @7V
Case: Lian-Li PC-V2100B Plus II
Watercooling gear:
Radiator: 2x Thermochill PA160
Rad Fans: 2x Noctua NF-P12 @9V
Pump: Aquastream XT Ultra
Flow-meter: Aqua-Computer 5.6mm flow-meter
GPU-block: EK-FC88
CPU-block: D-Tek Fuzion (bowed + nozzle)
Chipset blocks: EK waterblocks for mosfets, NB and SB
HD-block: Watercool dual HD cooler.
Tubing: 1/2" Tygon Silver Tubing and some generic 6/8mm ID/OD tubing.
That original article at Anandtech was not a good idea imho but they added more comments after.
There is nothing proving that it's the VTT that killed their QX9650.
But using simple logic the FSB termination voltage which is applied between the N/B and the processor follow the same rule than for the processor core voltage.
The FSB VTT is only affecting a small part of the processor but it's still the 45nm technology involved so: maximum 1.45V.
I'm still at 1.55V VTT here and so are some others but with at least water cooling on the CPU & N/B.
We know we take a risk but not more than someone giving 1.55V to the CPU core voltage.
(and I added warnings about the risk in my overclocking results' posts)
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm an IT specialist but I can't say the same for electronic.
Still crossing fingers for a new Bios where we can lower this VTT...
Anybody tried the older 0215 bios btw ? I read somewhere it gave better overclocking results.
cpu init on a e6750 that has worked in:
-a maximus formula
-a p5w dh deluxe
-a dfi x38 LT
what now.. pressing reset cmos on the back didn't work, reseating the cpu didn't work, now I have the battery out..
Interesting -- why no AHCI?
You look pretty good. You can probably drop the voltage down on some on those components and still maintain stability. If you have the time, just start taking things down one at a time until your system is unstable, than knock it back up a notch.Quote:
CPU Voltage: 1.344 (Manually set to 1.393 though)
CPU PLL Voltage: 1.616V
FSB Termination Voltage: 1.408V
DRAM Voltage: 2.256V (Is this a problem? The sticks are rated at 2.1V)
North Bridge Voltage: 1.600V
South Bridge Voltage: 1.056V
SB 1.5V Voltage: 1.504V
DRAM Controller Voltage REF: 1.136V
Any glaring problems? I don't want anything dying on me.
CPU PLL could probably come down a little -see lost hawk's post.
North bridge could come down a little.
Your Ram is getting a little high. Does it need that much? If so, than if it isn't too hot (use a finger thermometer) you should be alright.
What batch number is your e8400?
Batch is Q751A447.
I went ahead and started to take down the voltages. The board is showing the voltages all wrong though, compared to what I manually set them to. For example, I took the CPU PLL all the way down to 1.50V, but the bios hardware monitoring reported 1.55V. I took the FSB termination voltage down to 1.30V, and it reported it as 1.20V. I also tried lowering it all the way down to 1.20V and it was reported as 1.11V... :confused: Default 0219 bios. The DRAM voltage I set to 2.098 or some such so it showed as 2.1V in the bios. I also lowered the NB to 1.47V (reported in bios as 1.456V) and it seemed completely stable at the same 467 FSB at those voltages.
However, I set it to run Memtest86 overnight, and in the middle of the night I woke up because the power went out. It turns out the friggin Enermax Modu82+ died on me and took out a fuse along with it. I took the PSU out and tried to run it with a PSU tester thingy, but it's completely dead. :( I just hope it didn't take anything else with it. I don't have a replacement handy, so I have to send it to germany for a RMA and get a replacement before I can continue.
Started prepping my formula last night, and got the MCW30 on the NB and SB, however my GX2 catches on the MCW30 mounted on the SB, so thats a no go. My evercool VC-RE will not fit either, so I have to look at other options!
Sooo, I no an enzotech will fit, but I came accross this vantec chipset heatsink in my box of random PC cooling gear and wondered if it would do the trick. It came with a Vantec CCB-A1C.
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9...2resizeqb3.jpg
I have an evercool 40mm fan that i might be able to mount on it some how to get some airflow, but really I have no idea how much heat this thing kicks out, so not sure if this solution will be enough.
This should work for sure:
http://www.jab-tech.com/Jing-Ting-Fo...r-pr-3450.html
Yup, i was just wondering if the vantec would do the job specifically as I have it here and can use it rather than anything else. If not I'll look for something else.
However, that cooler u recommend does look very good. Is it definately the right specs to mount on the SB of the rampage. Ive noticed a number of caps are very closel, and stop all my other fans/heatsinks fitting.
MikeMK , you can also try the HR-05 SLI from Thermalright .
Yup, ive seen that, they look great I just wasnt sure if it would clear the GX2. I'll post a pic with the GX2 in the mobo later, and maybe someone can give me an idea if it'll be ok.
EDTI - sorry, i was thinking of the standard HR=05, didnt realise there was an SLI version. Just seent a pic of it, and looks like it will do a great job. Now ive just gotta find one in stock somewhere in the UK!
The SLI version won't fit, I have tried. The heatpipes sticking out on the side of the contact plate get in the way of some caps, from any mount angle.
The non-SLI version will fit, but not with a GX2. The cooler I recommended only has a single heatpipe sticking out on the side, and you are able to slide it in and out, so it has the best chance of fitting.
Gonna get this board running this week, rip it up with my 2yr old 8000 BH :D
WOOOOT!!!! Just got my system all set up with the board, and all I did was crank up some voltages and I'm priming away with my Q9450 at 3.6GHz, 451x8. Didn't mess with much else!! Still have a lot of tuning to do, and most likely will be able to go higher!
Compared to my DFI P35 T2R that would fail OCCT in exactly 2 seconds at anything over stock speed.
Hi, I just got this board to use with my new Q9450 cpu, unfortunately I have not the chance (in the quick) to go for a water cooling solution, so atm i have to use air cooling, atm my temperatures (without OC) are:
CPU: 34°
MB: 38°
NB: 57°
SB: 52°
as u can see the NB/SB temp is kinda high considered I am not OC, I need some suggestion to cool down it, can u guys help me out, to what I shall buy and do to be able to cool down the NB/SB?
My CPU temps stay at 38C no matter what i am doing, this seems wrong, is anyone not able to get an accurate reading on CPU temps?
I have come to the conclusion that this motherboard simply owns, hands down.
Got my 8GB of G.skill DDR2 1066 rated RAM running stable at DDR2 1083, with the FSB at 451, cpu at 3.6GHz.
All I did was set the RAM to it's rated voltage, and that was that. Didn't miss with any of the timings or RAM-related settings. Now I am going to back down on all the volts until I am stable with the least possible voltages.
here a question for all you Rampage guys ...
i'm out to test the MoBo out of the case ,hook up only what i need to=post/check the bios / load raid 0 on the hhd's / load the O/S ===JUST get it up & running to stock settings JUST TO SEE if the MoBo is not a DOA
THE BIG Question is can i use my stock Intel CPU Cooler that came with my Q6600 on my new QX9770 for this TEST ? (QX9770 don't come with cooler even retail ) as i'm water cooling the whole she-bang soon as i know that the MoBo ani't DOA (want to make sure i can RMA it) ;-).....I just don't want to hurt the QX9770 during the test .. Rig# one with Q6600 is running great & stable & i don't want to pull the Zalman off it just for a test ... any thoughts guys ????
THEN i;m pulling the stock cooling off SB/NB everything & water cooling everything
OH Yeah! here a thread i started about cooling this puppy down
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=185867
Ok guys i jus ordered the formula but now i would like to see a photo from the back of the board.
Can anyone supply me with a high res photo?
Thanks :D
Will I have any problems running the following on this mobo:
QX9770 w/Apogee GT (I'm assuming it doesn't fit since the AM2 part hits the sinks, I can cut that part off np)
4GB DDR2 1200MHz (I want to run them at this speed, since they are rated for it, 4x 1GB sticks)
8800 Ultra
4 Raptors, RAID 0
1 SSD
1 SATA DVD/RW drive (will hang on my XBX2)
Zalman 850W PSU
All in all, will this be a step up from my QX6700 and XBX2?
Maybe with the Raptors -- I did. 3 x 74G was buggy
need to know what water blocks i need for the n/b -s/b & mosfits I'm looking at the EK stuff
does the danger den x38 water block fit the x48 for this board ? as i have that one already & the MC-TDX for the cpu
thanx in advance
Sorry if this has been answered before. I did tried the search :)
Can anybody recommend a good solution for adding eSATA? Should I just add a bracket with SATA to eSATA cable or PCIe add-on card is preferable? Any recommendations for eSATA add-on card?
Since this is mainly for backup I am not really after the best transfer rates. Hot swap support would be nice.
Anyone tried running with the stock nb/sb cooling in an inverted case? I am thinking of trying this board out, but have a Lian-Li V2000 and have to mount it upside down. Any thoughts?
Hello, i've purchase a Rampage and Q9450 but i din't chose yet de memories, can someone help me please, i was interested in a 2x2gb kit, what is the better choice to buy? I've saw this one http://www.teamgroup.com.tw/teamgrou..._id=1&pl2_id=3 are they a good choice, or do you know some better solution?
F2-8500cl5d-4gbpk
Thanks 003 8G your running!
I can almost get DDR2 1131 and DDR2 1141 stable... but dosen't seem to want to happen.
Well, i couldnt cancel the HR05 SLI in time to stop them shipping it, so it arrived the other night, along with an Enzotech i actually intended to use (no where in the uk stocked the cooler u recommended unfortunately). However, seeing it was there i thought id give the thermalright a shot in vein hope it might fit... and it does! It is very close to one of the caps, but i mounted it about 2mm off centre to give enough of a gap... heres a couple of pics -
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7...olerressa0.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9...olerreshy5.jpg
You can forget crossfire with dual slot cards though!
Does anyone know if OCZ Reaper HPC Edition 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) will work with this board?
The reason I ask is because I have 8 gigs of this and I want to buy a new board, however I dont currently have the money for both new board and new ram. Thankou
personally recommend you go with Nvidia board with that ram :cool:
I can't help but say "TRY IT" :d
The mobo's more than capable, easy 1600 fsb, although I found 2/3 best strap for 3dbench
Overvolt slike crazy on Auto, thats why we love\hate Rampage stuff *goes on rampage*
Thats good to see it fits!! You know what... I think I mixed up what board I was thinking of when I said it wouldn't! It was my DFI LanParty LT P35-T2R that it would not fit on!
Current results:
8gigs running 1066mhz
e3110 running at 4.0ghz stable for 24hours...
....still pushing
Got an a little over 11seconds on SuperPi
I got my board yesterday and now am running P95 small ffts at 4.3GHz with rig in sig. The interesting thing so far is this CPU is now running P95 with less vcore than the previous 4 boards I tried it on (Asus P5K-Premium, DFI Blood Iron, DFI LP LT P35 T2R, and a DFI LP LT X38 T2R). The best I could get with these boards was 1.344vcore. Right now I am at 1.328vcore with the RF. So far I really like this board.
For sure?
http://www.intel.com/support/chipset.../cs-015988.htm
"The Serial ATA (SATA) controller [Intel® Matrix Storage Manager] has three modes of operation:
IDE mode - no AHCI, no RAID
SATA mode (sometimes called AHCI mode) - AHCI enabled, no RAID
RAID mode - AHCI enabled, RAID enabled"
The article seems to suggest installation of raid drivers is not absolutely required (to obtain AHCI), but recommended for maximum flexibility.
I am very keen on understanding this before I set up my new system. Can you confirm must have raid drivers/config for ahci mode on x48? I understand must install them before OS installed.
I was hoping to set my rig up with one drive initially (maybe just a 200GB seagate) for testing components and then later migrate to RAID5 with 4 x 1TB 7200.11 added to the 200GB OS drive. Can this work? Is it wise? Will I be able to run ahci mode (and later RAID5) w/o having to re-install OS (Vista 64 Ultimate).
Anyone think I have made a mistake with my memory choice?
thanks to all for a great thead! :up:
It works well, 3.6GHz (451x8) is my 24/7 speed, at 1.35v. I can get 3.8 at 1.425v, but that is pushing it with the voltage and I need to run the memory at a lower speed. I have LLC enabled, and I need more voltage to get stable with it disabled.
I believe the added strain of 8gb of RAM is making it tougher for me to reach very high overclocks, and also I have not really messed with GTL voltages and RAM timings, etc... too complicated.
BigSlappy: Do you think there is enough space for two VisionTek 3870 x2 (O/C ver with dual fan/heatsink) in crossfire on the x48? I am not planning on water, but may need some aftermarket air cooling on SouthBridge.
How do you like the 3870 x2? Noise level?
Cheers!
rig not up & running yet but am water cooling the whole she bang CPU / n/b s/b, mosfits ,vid carrds and any thing else but the hhd's . just got some EK water blocks for the mosfits & n/b s/b,,,, DD on the cpu & vid cards
out of the case twin rads below the floor where it's nice & cool !
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=185867
my cooler build this a mock up to see if it will work with used parts but the rads are new >> if this work then it will be all metal box & a new blower (instead of the used one ) testing went good to day .. i'm gonna run hot water in both rads to see the temp drop i get tomorrow
I didnt read through this full thread, but anyone here getting 4.0ghz out of a QX6850 with this board?
I can't beat 3.66, and strangely I can't seem to beat any FSB higher than the stock 333. I got to 3.66 just by upping the multiplier from 9x up to 11x.
Pic with Volts @ 3.66
http://img22.imagevenue.com/loc1108/...122_1108lo.jpg
I've tried alot of testing to get 4.0 ghz.
I've tried 400 x 10. 333 x 12. 500 x 8. Nothing works. I've done all tests with just 2 dimms installed and set at a low speed (800) to make sure the ram isn't messing things up. I've tried Vcores as high as 1.5 and nbridge's as high as 1.55. Haven't messed with the other voltages that much.
Usually I can get the system to post all the way thru the BIOS at settings of 4.0 ghz, however the instant windows starts to load, bam, it hangs at a black screen or occasional BSOD (about 1/2 second right before the Loading Windows screen would normally appear). 99% of the time it's a black screen hang, and very rarely its a BSOD crash.
Can this be a RAID 0 problem? My boot drive is a raid 0 setup. Can overclocking mess with that somehow?
In anycase, I can't get Windows to load at anything higher than 333 x 11: (3.66 ghz speed)
http://img216.imagevenue.com/loc452/..._122_452lo.jpg
Any suggestions on successful setups?
Thanks guys
Have been following your diy thread with interest. I will be building something similar in a closet on an exterior wall on my house (but based on air).
In the mean time could you comment on whether you think two of the visiontek 3870 x2 would fit in crossfire on the x48 board?
Thanks and good luck with your test this weekend.
Played around for a while. Here are my initial results:
Just received my board yesterday with the Thermalright Coolers I orderd,
the IFX-14, HR-05 IFX, HR-05 SLI/IFX and 2 HR-09 S/U's.
I started out removing the all the heatsinks, I was scared to break someting
but it went easier then I thought. I just removed the plugs with a pincer and
after removing the screw from the NB it came off directly.
Has a lot to do with the fact that I haven't used the board, it seems the heat
from normal use will make it harder to remove it.
But I made some mistakes...
First of all the Mosfet coolers, the HR-09 were the wrong ones. They were to
big. But I was to lazy to send them back, order new ones and in the meantime
not use my board. So I decided to not use a clip on one side and use superglue
(yeah dumb and at own risk haha) but hey it worked.
The next problem came with the IFX-14 being SO BIG!! I bought the
HR-05 SLI/IFX so that my 9800GTX would have no problems staying in PCI-E 1.
But now I had to swap because I needed it on the SB instead of the NB.
Therefor I was forced to use the HR-05 IFX on the SB. Because of that my
9800GTX had to move to PCI-E 2. Because of the 9800GTX moving down and
the HR-05 SLI/IFX on the NB I didn't have any PCI slots anymore lol
So I can't use my Creative X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty anymore and had to
use the FX pff
Pff then the 5 120mm Noctua's and 3 80mm Noctua's, they look weird. Like
flesh in a machine :shocked:
All together it took me like 7 hours with the help of my girfriend who has small
hands to pllug and screw some thing my hands were to big for.
Here some shots inside my Cosmos:
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2502/cimg0054bm3.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5835/cimg0058zt8.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6796/cimg0053yx1.jpg
Gotta love the SB key-chain :D
HEY ! What a great Idea !!! that's gonna look great as my key fob also
L O L !
i'll be opening the boxes up today to check the mobo agianst the water blocks just to see if i ordered all the right parts
& will also open up the 3870 x2 OC place it on the MoBo to eyeball the fit to see if another will work as that's is my plan is 2 each 3870 x2 oc on the mobo pix also
on the air cooling thing i've seen duct work that a guy was blowing air from a cool spot in his house into his PC he was useing that flexable heating duct stuff from home depot that is insulated , he was also had blowers from the local hydroponic shops that the pot growers use to exit hot air from the HD lamps they use . they are inline fans/blowers that fit that duct work & u can use as many as needed to move air along a long run of duct
the flexable / insulated stuff i talk about i have used myself as i replaced all the hard duct work in the attic,in my home furnace system as the original was not insulated & i losing alot of heat before it "warm air "even got to my rooms
Easy stuff to work with & really works well . cheap TOO ! come in 2 foot long boxes that when you open springs out like a Jack-in-the -box Soo what works for warm also works for cool !
i'll post here later today what i find out stay tuned !
max fsb guys?
550FSB without really trying hard
That's the fan I put on the backplate cpu cooler, it comes with the Thermalright IFX-14 :p:
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8605/ifx142uq4.jpg
I'm curious, what is the latest BIOS for the Rampage Formula? Official or Beta. I thought it was 0219 official, but I have seen references to newer ones?
True, there is a 0308 for a while now. Found here on the Asus Forum: http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?...age=1&count=37
But it's a bit shady and has an S3 suspend issue :shrug:
Hmm 0401 out....: http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?...Language=en-us
Any improvements, 0219 running flawless here.
I am thinking about getting this X48 Rampage Forumla board. First I wanted to go for DDR3, but price for good DDR3 bricks are just way to high for me.
So I am thinking about setup like this one>
CORSAIR Dominator TWIN2X8500C5DF 2048MB, DDR2, 2x1GB(KIT), DHX, E.P.P, with FAN (TWIN2X2048-8500C5DF)
INTEL E8500 C2D PROCESSOR 3.16G 6MB 1333MHZ FSB (EU80570PJ0876M)
I am just wondering how easy it will be to overclock E8500 to 9.5x425 4037.5mhz on this board?
And if I need to go for better memory like 1200mhz / PC9600. And what are the benefits if there is any?
How are you guys cooling the chipset on this board?
Just some fans on the provided dissy or second market stuff like TR?
Rampage Are The Best :up::woot:
BTW Guys found a Intel X48 chipset driver on the MSI website for the X48C Platinum.
You can download it here: http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?f...1&prod_no=1393
0401 has made official. Any improvements? They say it should improve memory compatibility.
Pll 1.50V,SB : 1.075V,Vfsb 1.44V,NB: 1.75V,CPU GTL : 0.67x,NB GTL : 0.63x,PL9,333 strap,mem 1/1 - 5-5-5-5.
the NB without active cooling (~62C) and the 8500 on air...i stopped at 585...bios 0219..it came out from a 10' search..
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8505/1mfsbny9.jpg
Well done !!! See how easy it was ? ;)
i`ll keep it for my self....hehehehehe
first time i`m glad to see 62C out of the NB....with 25-30C do you think it will get me 600??
I am using 0401 now. I don't see much change in my case.
Apparently I can boot at 4GHz a bit more easily but I need to use this rig now so I don't have time for long stability tests.
Just tried 1.42 FSB VTT at 3.8GHz but it failed on OCCT rapidly.
It's safe to upgrade to 0401 so: you will have at least the same overclocking results.
BTW: grats to those people reaching 3.8GHz with safe CPU/VTT voltages. I am jealous ;)
And this Rampage gave me faith back in Asus. I was about to give up with all the bad P35 experiences.
Thank you Xelation for the X48 chipset drivers link !
I'm also using 0401 official, I don't notice much difference. Have not really tested yet though.