M378B5773DH0-CH9
It should be 30nm if I am correct.
M378B5773DH0-CH9
It should be 30nm if I am correct.
Guys, tell me it is normal with USPS:
Why nothing during Jan the 2nd? :(Quote:
Last event
Date Time Location Event Details
December 31, 2011 08:13:00 AM Miami FL US Arrival Scan
its normal that's delayed on this datesQuote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
mine arrived yesterday :) so im waiting the mail guy
cheers ! be patient
Sergio
So USPS worked yesterday but no advancing in tracking. So sick :(.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
http://skinflint.co.uk/eu/531278
This should be Samsung 30nm aswell. However they are not idenctical low profile ones.
Factory code: M378B5273DH0-CH9 or -CH900
Just ordered 4 sticks for my p67 deluxe and 2600K. Lets see if i can have 2133 CL9.
Same chips posted in one russian forum
http://occlub.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=1813
first try on the MIVE
wont boot at 2400 i tried till 1,55 and CL12 i get ERROR 59 wich is CPU microcode error
so i pushed bclk this mobo goes to 108 so its not an issue
here first screenie
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/293...amsungram1.jpg
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
if you spot the everest screen i just realize that it says MOBILE CPU lmao i dont know if its 2105 BIOS cauz other versions of everest shows the same
so far this is what i got for now
*thanks OC nub for posting volts as it was a nice start
i have some doubts maybe someone can clear them
as its very low volt BIOS detects perfect 1,35v just i dont know how much VTT to use as i remember there was a rule like VTT - VDIMM must not go out of 0,5 range but this was on other I7's
cheers to all
Sergio
well after some tests i conclude that def not a mem for MIVE or MIVE needs a BIOS update
Why is that?
Didnt think 2400 worked on SB? Dont you need SB-E for the 2400 ratio?
yeah guys even that i got 2400 for select on the mobo i get CODE 59 wich means CPU MICROCODE ERROR as manual states, and closer divider is 2133, so i need to push bclk for anything above 2133
i did a nice 2200 CL10 pushing 103 x 49 but i need to redo my OC as needs more VCore etc---
So far good mem but i went back to my patriots 2133 9-11-9-27 16GB 1T
cheers to all
Sergio
I tried these out as well on my R3E, I did manage 2400Mhz... 11,11,11,28 , had to run dimms at 1.6v though, I ran a couple or Linx runs ok. but not really stable
I just used 2 sticks, to see if I could get a boost on the latency while getting 8 gig over the tri 6 gig.
In the end I didnt see any real performance gain overall over my current set up, I guess cos i could not get timing tight enough so went back to the corsairs ..
I tried 2133/ 2175 on 10,10,10 .. 1.5v.. but again.. performance not great, I can get 2133 8,8,8 24 with the corsairs.. but even these timings are slightly less performance than the tighter 7,7,7,20 .
yeah u can do 2133 10-10-10-30 1T trfc 128 at 1,5vdimm and will be as fast as 2133 9.11.9.27 1TQuote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
cheers and good luck
Sergio
@ Andressergio
With your VTT at 1.1v you are good/safe up to 1.6vdimm, meaning 1.6vdimm or less, if your Patriot kit is 1.65v, you are outside that range by .05v, to stay within the range just raise VTT to 1.15v or higher with the 1.65v memory kits if you are concerned. Im not sure if anyone follows this rule with SB, I havent and have had no issues.
I never run vccio at anything over 1.0875 as it usually caused instability with my cpus and always 1.65v, and while benching 1.8v all the time for 224X 6-9-6-20 on the GSkill RipjawX BBSE sticks I have, no degradation or problems here.Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Nub
I think the whole 0.5v vtt/vdimm rule was more so for Bloomfield and Gulftown.
You sir are a failure,2400 divider works only on 1% of SB cpu's and on some ES.So it's not the board to blame it's the cpu.Go test 2133 9-10-10,how much v will require?Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
SB Engineering Samples had the 2400 divider as well, it's still left in the BIOS but it doesn't work with retail CPUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by PiLsY
hey Don how are you ? so its not something you can correct with a BIOS update ? :/ i was gonna ask raja asus about thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
cheers !
Sergio
I believe only D1 ES chips had that divider working sergio, but they also could not use pll over voltage so pick your poisonQuote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
I believe only D1 ES chips had that divider working sergio, but they also could not use pll over voltage so pick your poisonQuote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
why u say im a failure ? i just didnt know this issue of SB mate at least im here on this forum to learn everyday more and help other ppl, i can be mistaken but i aint no failureQuote:
Originally Posted by Alex-Ro
i just been told by some friends here that only ES had the divider
2133 9-10-10 i only tested mem till 1,5vdimm and its not stable at those timmings, best it was 2133 10-10-10-30 1T @ 1,5
yes i just got this i really didnt knowQuote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3
thanks mate
Sergio
I don't really think 10-10-10-30 is equal to 9-11-9...and even lesser 9-10-9 :/Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
yes i remember we talked this before first on normal I7 920 then we were not sure for SB, i use 1.08VTT and 1,65 VDIMM for the patriots yes and as loud says anyting over that seems unstableQuote:
Originally Posted by OC Nub
thanks
Sergio
not equal but close beepbeepQuote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
talking about the 2400 divider i really dont know why mem goes easy to 2250+ and we on MIVE dont have nothing between 2133 and 2400 to select, im sure this mem will go easy at 2200 or more at CL10
yes l0ud its like that like OC nub said also, i was just guessing as it was real low vdimm so i get like scared lolQuote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3
cheers !
moar voltz:p:Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
but really I would probably stick with your current setup over these new samsung dimms seems like you have a good thing going with 16GB:up:
yeah this patriots are really good stuff i just put them back yesterdayQuote:
Originally Posted by l0ud_sil3nc3
Could you please post some tests with CL 7, 8 and 9 please? (with lowest trcd possible of course)Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
I think until 1,65+V all voltages are totally safe.
You should try some stability test too as:
- Prime95 CUSTOM (after having selected "Blend", then "Custom") putting adequate memory size to be tested
or
- Memtest for Windows (several instances)
Thanks a lot.
Goodbye.
yeah but it think OC nub tested a lot on the chipset that goes with this mem that is X79Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
Np mate! We'll wait for your results :D.Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
I'll get my sticks in 5 days. First european? First on AMD too?
good luck mate im very pissed that i have to move BCLK to get good results you know that moving bclk makes vcore hungry...Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
I should be getting my 30nm Samsa´s from Germany tomorrow or friday. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
They should be in flight Miami - Italy (customs fee already paid) in few houres according to tracking :D.Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
Fortunately my memory controller seems very good and accomodative too:
http://digilander.libero.it/m4puni/p...7_Prime_1s.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/m4puni/p...ew_Prime_s.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/m4puni/p..._2000Mhz_s.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/m4puni/p...ite_test_1.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
nice results mate
yeah mine's strong also but the problem as guys explained is the 2400 strap on SB i have no value to choose between 2133 and 2400 so i can go to 2300 but pushing bclk
Mine should be here by the end of the week :). I got 1333mhz tho, you bought the 1600mhz kit didnt you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
Yeah, the amazon 1600 one!Quote:
Originally Posted by PiLsY
I so hope I dont regret my itchy trigger finger and not waiting for the 1600 to come in stock...
@ LoudSilence
He was concerned about the .5v rule that started with bloomfield. I was trying to explain it the best I could. On x58 it was pretty hard to not follow this rule when ocing, it required more vtt than the new platforms.
I pretty much forgot about this after x58.
I would be surprised if anyone was able to do high frequency at c7 or even c8 on any platform. I think the benefit of this ram is the low profile, low voltage and low cost. Considering the default speed and timings it does clock very well, but its not going to clock head to head with most high performance, higher priced ram.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
yes i was asking as i also forgot as i never had to use more than 1,08 on any of my chips but as i never tried 1,35v DDR3 i started to doubtQuote:
Originally Posted by OC Nub
i tested lots of kits of 2x4 and the best RAM i tested is this Patriot Xtreme 2000 9-11-9-27, they run amazing above 2000 but u cant touch that 11, what i like of the samsungs is that they do flat timmings like good all hypers, for ex 2220 10-10-10 etcQuote:
Originally Posted by OC Nub
what i dont agree is that higher priced RAM will do better, this Patriots cost 77 dollars 2x4GB and you will be amazed how they beat a 200 dollar kit, and i aint my luck or batch we bought like 6 kits of 8GB with some friends from ramexperts and all do same as mine
cheers
Sergio
Yeah but they are promising very well seeing the result. I don't see any more 8gb kits able to do that here so please keep on testing and post your results! Thank you! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by OC Nub
u wont PiLsY min u can get its 2133 CL10 1T at 1,5vdimmQuote:
Originally Posted by PiLsY
And you keep on testing too @~2000Mhz! I would like to see some Prime (follow the instruction above please)!!Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
this is my comparison
samsung 4x4GB at 2200 10-10-10-30 1T
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2...amsungram1.jpg
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Patriots 4x4GB 2133 9-11-9-27 1T
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5946/3ssd.jpg
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
lol yeah i will do soon dont worryQuote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
You had +3 bus on Samsung test, you should repeat it @ same bus as Patriot.Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
The results I had posted were the best I was able to do with these.
I also tried them on my Gigabyte p67 board, but the results werent very good. The Asus board may be much better with this kit after seeing andressergio's results, or maybe I didnt find the right settings.
The Giga p67 did like the GSkill RipjawsZ 16gb kit, was able to run them at 2133 9 10 9 28 1t, 1.66vdimm http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=1#post5008754. I think all boards act different with a particular kit of ram, some like kit A, and the next board doesnt, but clocks great with kit B for example.
I think they are a very good value and most people will be pretty happy with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
@andressergio
CPU speed and BCLK affect results, do an apples to apples comparison at 2133 9-11-9 and 2133 10-10-10. Also, good hynix will do 2133 9-10-9, not 9-11-9...
are these the correct ones? do they ship to slovenia?
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electr.../ref=pd_cp_e_2
eh they don't.......where to buy in europe?
Watch your language, we're all here to learn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-Ro
Hey Sergio, I'm fine thanks, hope you're doing well too.Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
No, it can't be corrected with a BIOS update, it's a hardware issue. Good to see you pushing hardware, although it's not a Gigabyte board! :D
Are you sure about that? Because I can't find anywhere any stability test with those settings with any platform.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
I don't consider a SuperPi test neither near or similar to a stability test because it is not.
would anyone from USA willing to buy for us in eu? we have paypal and all.
cost+shipping fee + 5% :)
yes beep im just too lazy to take the patriots out now but i did the comparison and there was a bit of dif as i told youQuote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
btw my patriots are hynix but rated 2000 9-11-9-27
this samsungs i just bought them to do 2400 and i honestly didnt know the SB retail dont have that strap unlocked only ES so for me its end of the story i know the samsung is good mem but not for P67A, for this chipset i would go patriot 100%
cheers
Sergio
thanks Don yeah MR Alex-ro woke up on a bad mood i guess im just learning from this experiencie the bad way, but im happy either way i love to test memQuote:
Originally Posted by Don_Dan
its a pitty that retails CPU dont do 2400
jeje yeah i went to ASUS this time nice board mate !
cheers from here and thanks for your support always
Sergio
no you are right OC nub giga dont push this mem as ASUS do, as i told the guys i can go pushing bclk till 108 on the MIVE and mem will go up easy but wasnt my aim, i wanted them to do 2400 but well bad luck i didnt know the issue of retails 2600KQuote:
Originally Posted by OC Nub
yes are a good choice for anyone specially on X79
but for P67A patriots the best for sure
cheers
Sergio
guys in case i can help you choose cheap and very fast and rock solid RAM this is what i tested and rock solid setups
for P67A
2x4GB MUSHKIN REDLINE RIDGEBACK RED 2133 9-10-11-28 1.65v, tested 16GB amazing RAM, will go up to 2250 same timmings not touching a volt
2x4GB PATRIOT Xtreme 2000 9-11-9-27 1.65v, tested 16GB much better than above mushkins they go up easy even with my chip at 5.6Ghz
3x2GB MUSHKIN REDLINE RIDGEBACK RED 2133 7-11-7-27 1.65v, fast as hell ram but 3x2kit
2x4GB GSKILL SNIPER sorry to say crap...tight as hell
2x2GB GSKILL ECHO low volts 1,35 1600 CL7 very good RAM they can go to 2000 and lower timmings but 2x2 kit, at least what i could get
2x4GB Samsungs (reason of this thread) awesome for X79, as for my chipset wont do 2133 9-10-9-27 at least on the volts i tried i dont want to break this nice ram, but will do 2133 plain CL10 1T on 16GB, cheap and fast an cold RAM for not having HS
all this was tested to be stable on my MIVE
Cheers to all
Sergio
GSKill used to sell 2133 9-10-9 kits...Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
Not 2x4gb!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Package is on its "transatlantic transfer", lovely words!
At least it is not on a canoe.
I had a major setback in my build that required the purchase of a different case. I may not have a finished computer until the end of this month. Then I can post some results on my end.
not on 2x4 beep and now they cost a lot ! u can do that easy on patriots and 2x4 but 9-11-9 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
Abressergio max stable clock with 9-9-9-25-34? (with both, Patriot and Samsung)Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
less than 2000 on the samsungs and patriots wont do plain timmings just 9-11-9-27 1T i never test under 2000 as i want more than that lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
The 10-10-10 should be better then 9-11-9, I did 8-8-8 vs 7-9-7 testing before at 1900Mhz.
7-9-7 vs 8-8-8 (all testing done @ DDR3-1900Mhz, i7-920 @ 4Ghz no HT, dual channel)
Best Spi 1m with 8-8-8
10.218s
Best Spi 1m with 7-9-7
10.234s
Average Spi 1m (average of 4 runs) with 8-8-8
10.245s
Average Spi 1m (average of 4 runs) with 7-9-7
10.264s
Best Spi 32m with 8-8-8
9:43.004
Best Spi 32m with 7-9-7
10.01.288
@ Punisher, I would guess that these are all Hynix below. Same exact timings as the 2 4x4gb kits I have for x79, both kits Ive tried will do 2133 9-10-9.
This kit is rated 9-10-9-28, just not GSkill. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820144548
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820226199
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231518
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231476
should be andressergio :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
i barely test under 2000 Punisher as i want more than that, i explained what i was searching and then i learnt the bad way, either way i will put them back and test some timmings
I just got the 1333 7-7-7 1.5V RipjawsX kit that was supposed to be BFRs, and the ICs say F139V8CR942R. December 2011 build.Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Nub
Cecil Gskill ECHO would do 1600 CL7 easy at CL7 i dont get the point of 1333 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil
Gskill ECOs are 2GB dimms, not 4GB. There were reports of the RipjawsX 1333 7-7-7 kit being Hynix BFR and they were only $48 so I took a risk on them, and they arent. Just tried them in my Z68 at 1866 9-10-9 1.55V and they wouldnt post. I run daily with four 2GB PSC dimms at 1866 8-9-8 1.55V, so Ill probably just pick another couple of those sets up.Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
I thought they did, I guess I was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by andressergio
Geil has a 9-10-9 kit, and I know a lot of guys with these high end Hynix kits were able to push 2133 9-10-9+
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820144548
There must be a mistake in Newegg page. Those GeIL EVO Corsa were thought to be 9-10-9 but actually they are 9-11-9.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
That kit is actually 9-11-9, as reported in the official website, here ( http://www.geil.com.tw/products/showSpec/id/315 ):
Also, look @ the kit:Quote:
DDR3 2133MHz CAS9 & CAS10 & CAS11 Dual Channel
- Available in 4GB(2GBx2) & 8GB(4GBx2) Dual Channel Package
- Available CAS: 9-11-9-28, etc.
http://www.madshrimps.be/files/users...a/DSC00227.jpg
8GB2133C9ADC is the most enthusiast one and has 9-11-9!
Quote:
More Overclocking Fun
As some of the reviewers at the Shrimps still love to push things we tried to get TRCD stable at 10 iso 11. Trying to get the same performance as the higher specced 9-10-9-28 kit. That's what most overclockers started off with : pushing your hardware up to at least the specs of that hardware piece you just couldn't afford. At least I did lol.
Our entire test suite was stable with 9-10-9-27 1T at 1.74Vdimm, sadly it failed the memtest torture test. So sadly no inclusion of them results in this review. Below is a SuperPi 32M shot to show you we are not faking.
Read more: http://www.madshrimps.be/articles/ar...#ixzz1igEIqSZK
So, if you know so many, why not linking some screenshots?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
either way beep this are the best + cheap kits if you want to do 2133 CL9/CL10 and push them up on 16GB
the patriots and the sammys
Why the attitude? Why do internet forums always have to do with proving someone wrong at all costsQuote:
Originally Posted by Punisher!
Geil EVO Corsa were thought to be 9-10-9, but actually were 9-11-9 correct. However, the 9-11-9 kit is labeled "ADC" and the REAL 9-10-9 kit is labeled DC. The DC kit came later and is not listed on GEIL's website, which rarely gets updated.
I'm not stupid, both kits are listed on newegg and the 9-10-9 kit is really 9-10-9, also pricier.
I'll hunt up screenshots when I have the time, later.
@andressergio
These are the best kits if you want to do 2133 10-10-10 at cheap prices, however there are kits that will do 9-10-9 around $80 too. These don't have heatspreaders as well...so they are the best low height modules. Team LV series is rated 2133 10-10-10 for $80 with a beefy HS for those that want better cooling...
thanks beepQuote:
Originally Posted by BeepBeep2
i already have enough mem lol i was hoping to do 2400 but as guys said impossible with 2600k :(
Are those Kingston same ICs ?
http://www.gearxs.com/gearxs/product...ducts_id=15806
http://www.gearxs.com/gearxs/images/...N9-4G-unit.jpg
General Features:
4 GB DDR3 (Double Data Rate Three) RAM
PC3-10600
1333 MHz
CL9
1.5V
2Rx8
512M x 64-bit
Non-ECC
Unbuffered
Memory timings: 9-9-9
240-pin
Pb-free (lead-free)
1.5v so I very much doubt it.
Same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by PiLsY
any updates how to buy in europe?
I haven't seen any EU shop having it available yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by TEDY
I'll get them by the end of the week according to tracking :( (still in UK, UK - Italy now).
In the meantime I have reached the perfect configuration to test them:
http://digilander.libero.it/m4puni/p..._TeamG_1bs.jpg
Max RAM divider will push them to 2133Mhz!
My 16GB of M378B5273DH0-CH9 arrived today from Germany.
First try 1.55v 2133 9-10-10-29-1T
Thats one nice ram!
Cost me total of 99€. not bad.
Did not do 9-10-9 @ 1.6v. Didnt want to push voltage any further. Im very happy with 2133 9-10-10.
http://www.upload.ee/thumb/1970867/1.png
Very nice result mate! Keep pushing it but 2133 9-10-10-29-1T is already so great!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
Thanx Punisher.
Tried up to 1.65v and 2200mhz cl10. Doesnt really like anything above 100bclk and 2133.
Maybe its just me and my P67 deluxe, but looks like the sweetspot is 2133 9-10-10-1T and 1.55v
Stability test running just now. 1.55v seems to be enought for this.
:)
yeah its what i tested mate on P67 you will get 2133Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
Please post your stability test as soon as you complete it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
yeah its what i tested mate on P67 you will get 2133Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
kristoferr and this ram will last on time at 1,55 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
Its 1.5v 1333mhz 9-9-9 default speed ram. Highly underestimated tho.
I didnt take a screenshot from stability test. I ran Linx on full capacity for 30minutes. It gave me error on 17min with 1.575v but passed 30minutes mark with 1.58v. So thats the voltage i am running it now.
I dont think that anything will happen to this ram under 1.6v in time. On 30min test, the chips didnt even get hot. Just warm enough to be able to touch them by hand. No heatspreaders, no fan blowing on them.
:)
I don't think there is any risk running them lower than 1,6 - 1,65V!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
Are those modules low profile too?
ok guys here is te apples to apples comparison fresh from the jar
my beloved Patriots 2000 9-11-9-27 1.65v @ 2133 9-11-9-27 1T 1.65v
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9641/patriotsl.jpg
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/5946/3ssd.jpg
the sammys 2400 CL11 1.35v @ 2133 9-10-10-29 1T 1.55v
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5196/p1110687g.jpg
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/8...391010291t.jpg
to the left patriots to the right samsungs
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1179/comparisont.jpg
Now i will just game BF3 :) see if it crashes then i will do some tests
cheers to all hope you like it
Sergio
No, those are regular size and high.
http://skinflint.co.uk/eu/531278
http://www.computerland.kiev.ua/uploads/imgs/209008.jpg
an update in stability
on the MIVE the samsungs not even at 1,6 will pass complete loops of Hyperpi32 i just get SQR ROOT / NOT CONVERGENT bla bla...tried more VTT lower, up all and this is on 2133 10-10-10-30 1T on less dont dream it with 16GB modules installed not even close to patriots...
how do you mean from GERMANY?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristoferr
Mate, i even linked skinflint shops list above. Just choose your shop. Confirm that they are M378B5273DH0-CH9 and order :)
http://skinflint.co.uk/eu/531278
Update. Im running prime95 blend test with them and it gives me error on that. Either i need to raise voltage some more or need to loose timings a bit. Will update if i get prime 30min stable, which i consider enough.
so this are low profile etc? should be this low profile?
http://www.samsung.com/us/system/con...O-YKO_01_5.jpg
http://www.samsung.com/us/system/con...DHO-YKO_02.jpg
@andressergio
But can your beloved Patriots do this?
I just finished mounting the radiator last night, these are the first pictures of my new computer. As you can see, memory and mosfet clearance was very crucial to my build.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6...0a131fd4_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7148/6...46d4a664_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7149/6...e5a02b87_b.jpg
I couldn't top mount a radiator without this memory.
Nice!! :up:
^ Very nice rig!
I think the reason for buying this memory is the low profile, low voltage, and low price. The memory being able to clock well is just a bonus. It isnt going clock as well as most high end gaming/enthusiast memory, or as good as some non low profile kits, but again, that isnt really the point of this thread.