Nvidia responds to Batman:AA

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10-04-2009, 04:49 AM
BakerT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luka_Aveiro

I think it's far more reasonable than assuming they are indeed doing anything at all.

Is it? I dont see it that way. With a game this popular and sitting on your ass doing nothing to make this game better and show better results in benchmarks would be more than stupid.

There might not be news in the matter but does that mean the world stops?
10-04-2009, 04:56 AM
Farinorco

Quote:

Originally Posted by LesGrossman

How can someone make a question like this after 15 pages is beyond me.

Maybe you should read more and write less, AA Runs in ATI with ZERO developer support, so what has Nvidia help develop?

Nvidia money doesn't develop nothing, it just makes 10.1, AA and basic visual effects in non physx version disappear, and make benchmarks tools give higher scores to a card with Nvidia ID.

NVIDIA helped developping that AA code that runs on ATi so well.

NVIDIA money developes lots of things (the same way that the AMD money does).

But never until this game that supported things have been locked to not be compatible with competitors. THAT's the wrong thing in all this mess. It's a turnaround that make our consumer's situation worse than it was. Many people seem resigned to it because they think those companies have the right to do it. And some others not (amongst other things because we are the ones who give our money to them, so I think that we shouldn't let work for them practices that pretend to get more of our money by harming us).
10-04-2009, 06:11 AM
Luka_Aveiro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farinorco

NVIDIA helped developping that AA code that runs on ATi so well.

How do you know it runs so well? tested it by yourself? :rolleyes:
10-04-2009, 06:41 AM
Final8ty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farinorco

I couldn't care less about ATi, NVIDIA or anyone of them.

The point you (and some more people by here) are missing is that this is not a matter about balancing or unbalancing the race between them, or trying to make a more or less fair competition/game between them for us to watch.

I repeat, I couldn't care less about they IHVs. Those are their business, not mine, so what they have regarding to advantages, disadvantages, or what they want, is not my problem.

I care about my situation as a consumer. And I think that a turn from a situation A where support means optimizing game / debugging / developing additional contents to a situation B where support means developing exclusive contents that only can be run on a certain brand of sw is harming / damaging my situation as a consumer.

Oh, and you continue about your theory about ATi/NVIDIA consumers. There's no such things. OK, yeah. There are a little few people who IS NVIDIA consumer (they only buy NVIDIA) and a little few people who IS ATi consumer (they only buy ATi). Most of us are simply hw consumers, and we buy videocards regardless the brand. We buy the product we prefer each time we need to buy one. If one of those people were about to buy a card now, for example, he/she would be being punished by the decision of Eidos to not allow to run the feature in half the cards in the market (probably the good half right now to make things worse).

Exactly the fight is between NV & ATI not between NV & me or ATI & me So they better not involved me in there underhanded tricks to hurt each other which NV is sadly doing to all.
10-04-2009, 08:06 AM
annihilat0r

They "not involve you in their tricks to hurt each other"?? This is the most pointless thing I have ever heard. Companies hurt each other by making sure their product is better and is bought by a greater number of "you" 's. Whatever they do involves you because YOU are the one that buys the graphics cards.
10-04-2009, 08:25 AM
trinibwoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jowy Atreides

Because games have to be playable for all users and when features are disabled for ATI then there can not be any gameplay changing physx features.

Nothing was disabled for ATI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farinorco

I care about my situation as a consumer. And I think that a turn from a situation A where support means optimizing game / debugging / developing additional contents to a situation B where support means developing exclusive contents that only can be run on a certain brand of sw is harming / damaging my situation as a consumer.

Wow, I'm surprised you're that naive. Do you honestly think that games are equally optimized for Nvidia and ATI architectures? Just because this PhysX and AA thing is getting all this hype and attention, don't be fooled into thinking that typical games don't favor one architecture over another. That's why you see cards trading blows depending on the title.

Quote:

We buy the product we prefer each time we need to buy one. If one of those people were about to buy a card now, for example, he/she would be being punished by the decision of Eidos to not allow to run the feature in half the cards in the market (probably the good half right now to make things worse).

Precisely! And outside of forums like this with all this crying, regular consumers don't consider themselves as being "punished". They see, oooh Nvidia has cool physics stuff, let me get that. Honestly, do you even talk to regular people who don't browse forums all day? They don't take up all these pseudo-moral crusades that you guys seem to enjoy. If one product has advantages over another they buy it, plain and simple.
10-04-2009, 08:34 AM
Farinorco

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Wow, I'm surprised you're that naive. Do you honestly think that games are equally optimized for Nvidia and ATI architectures? Just because this PhysX and AA thing is getting all this hype and attention, don't be fooled into thinking that typical games don't favor one architecture over another. That's why you see cards trading blows depending on the title.

Who has said nothing about games are equally optimized for every company? Exactly that's the point of supporting sw makers. And I have said it at least 10 times along this post. What I don't get is how that's the same thing that directly creating a feature that then you disable for every hardware that's not yours.

Now, if you want to put words in my mouth to call me naive and make my opinions look weaker, that's your choice. ;)

Quote:

Precisely! And outside of forums like this with all this crying, regular consumers don't consider themselves as being "punished". They see, oooh Nvidia has cool physics stuff, let me get that. Honestly, do you even talk to regular people who don't browse forums all day? They don't take up all these pseudo-moral crusades that you guys seem to enjoy. If one product has advantages over another they buy it, plain and simple.

And that's why I think we should make all this unaware people to know about why they can't use certain features and why they shouldn't support such practices.

PS: I have been noticing a trend that consists in using the word naive to defend the agressions made by companies, trying to give the people the impression that you are more "clever" if you accept to be trampled by them, and you are "naive" if not... that's strange.
10-04-2009, 08:50 AM
Final8ty

Quote:

Originally Posted by annihilat0r

They "not involve you in their tricks to hurt each other"?? This is the most pointless thing I have ever heard. Companies hurt each other by making sure their product is better and is bought by a greater number of "you" 's. Whatever they do involves you because YOU are the one that buys the graphics cards.

I don't regard making better products as playing underhanded tricks & yes i did not use underhanded as i thought the context of this thread was enough that i did not have to absolutely spell out everything to the enth degree, my mistake obviously.
10-04-2009, 08:53 AM
Sadasius

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

In what way? The only people pissed off are current owners of non-Nvidia cards. How does that hurt them?

Nice blanket statement. I own both thank you very much as many others here do as well. I like to have both in a rig as well. One for the PhysX and the other as the main card. They disabled that too but there are patches out there. It's too bad they are acting like this and it's too bad you have no idea how to run the world as you let the world run you. Some people are not as submissive and actually like to stand up against the things mentioned here. Others treat their rights like a old horse and put it down to pasture.
10-04-2009, 08:56 AM
annihilat0r

Quote:

Originally Posted by Final8ty

I don't regard making better products as playing underhanded tricks & yes i did not use underhanded as i thought the context of this thread was enough that i did not have to absolutely spell out everything to the enth degree, my mistake obviously.

You fail to make any sense in regards to your previous post: "they shouldn't involve 'me' in their tricks"

Sorry but that sounds like there might have been tricks in the past that do not involve 'you' in it, which sounds funny.
10-04-2009, 09:06 AM
trinibwoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farinorco

I have been noticing a trend that consists in using the word naive to defend the agressions made by companies, trying to give the people the impression that you are more "clever" if you accept to be trampled by them, and you are "naive" if not... that's strange.

Perhaps, but I can guarantee that when I use it, it's only in response to actual naivete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadasius

Nice blanket statement. I own both thank you very much as many others here do as well. I like to have both in a rig as well. One for the PhysX and the other as the main card. They disabled that too but there are patches out there. It's too bad they are acting like this and it's too bad you have no idea how to run the world as you let the world run you. Some people are not as submissive and actually like to stand up against the things mentioned here. Others treat their rights like a old horse and put it down to pasture.

Let the world run you? Heh, are you on the wrong forum? This is a thread about a graphics card and a video game so you can save the grandiose proclamations for something else.

Your rights as a consumer are no way impinged by what Nvidia is doing. Do you have a right to AA in Batman? You right is to spend your money on whatever products you want and for those products to work as advertised. You have no right to dictate what those products should be.

The only thing I've seen Nvidia do so far that may be illegal is to disable Ageia PPUs when AMD cards are installed.
10-04-2009, 09:06 AM
Final8ty

Quote:

Originally Posted by annihilat0r

You fail to make any sense in regards to your previous post: "they shouldn't involve 'me' in their tricks"

Sorry but that sounds like there might have been tricks in the past that do not involve 'you' in it, which sounds funny.

Not saying there have not been that does not mean i have to like it & lump it.
But i have yet to be aware of such obvious right in people face before in stuff that intrests me.

Your too busy analysing the exact words used instead of getting the message.

I don't have the batman game so it does not effect "me" so it can really only mean others & others being the consumers because this is all about what's better for the consumers.
10-04-2009, 10:04 AM
Solus Corvus

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Question for all the bleeding hearts. Nvidia spends far more money on developer support. You think ATI consumers should benefit equally. Why? What business model supports that strategy? Is ATI a poor orphan that needs to suckle from Nvidia's tits?

Simple. ATI and Nvidia owners pay the same amount of money for the game. But ATI customers don't get all the features. And that's not because of an ATI limitation (like no physx), but simply because of a choice by the developers not to put forth the effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

In what way? The only people pissed off are current owners of non-Nvidia cards. How does that hurt them?

I don't have any ATI cards at the moment. But I'm not going to buy a game that I couldn't get the same enjoyment out of regardless of my future hardware choices.
10-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Xoulz

The way it's meant to be played is nothing more than canned non-triggered events, that use special hooks, to make ancillary things look more realistic. PhysX inside games is a hoax. It's a marketing tool, nothing more. PhysX isn't about the game or advancing gameplay with real in-game physics. So even those who consider themselves fanboi of this technology, don't even understand Nvidia's business model, or what they are arguing about with TWIMTBP.

The Batman AA thing is just another form of Nvidia trying to sell their products based on marketing PERCEPTION. Or to make those who bought Nvidia card, feel better about themselves.. which is why they bought the cards in the first place. Nvidia's slogan means nothing other, than Nvidia's own belief that you should play all the games, on their cards. So they convince a game maker to run specialized AA, instead of just AA... because Nvidia tossed them some extra $$ to slap their logo on Batman's BOX and marketing rights of TWIMTBP for their title.
10-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Sadasius

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Let the world run you? Heh, are you on the wrong forum? This is a thread about a graphics card and a video game so you can save the grandiose proclamations for something else.

That was grandiose? Here let me put it this way then......You gladly accept what others give and tell you without a fight. It was just a nicer way of saying your a :cat: and a pushover where they can give you a perceptual reason in their favor and it looks good to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Your rights as a consumer are no way impinged by what Nvidia is doing. Do you have a right to AA in Batman? You right is to spend your money on whatever products you want and for those products to work as advertised. You have no right to dictate what those products should be.

Rights as a consumer? Naw I was talking about a right to protest what people are doing. That's a right too! You don't have to keep taking things with a smile you know. Sometimes the spine can be picked up from your socks and things can happen. Like a company changing their attitude to better the consumer pool instead of dividing it into smaller pieces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

The only thing I've seen Nvidia do so far that may be illegal is to disable Ageia PPUs when AMD cards are installed.

Well at least you see something. :up:
10-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Chumbucket843

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xoulz

The way it's meant to be played is nothing more than canned non-triggered events, that use special hooks, to make ancillary things look more realistic. PhysX inside games is a hoax. It's a marketing tool, nothing more. PhysX isn't about the game or advancing gameplay with real in-game physics. So even those who consider themselves fanboi of this technology, don't even understand Nvidia's business model, or what they are arguing about with TWIMTBP.

The Batman AA thing is just another form of Nvidia trying to sell their products based on marketing PERCEPTION. Or to make those who bought Nvidia card, feel better about themselves.. which is why they bought the cards in the first place. Nvidia's slogan means nothing other, than Nvidia's own belief that you should play all the games, on their cards. So they convince a game maker to run specialized AA, instead of just AA... because Nvidia tossed them some extra $$ to slap their logo on Batman's BOX and marketing rights of TWIMTBP for their title.

how can you judge the quality of an API based on games. with that perspective you probably think dx10, dx10.1 and dx11 suck.you have never developed any software with physx so i dont think you have any room to say it sucks and it is currently the only way to get physics on a gpu. opencl and directcompute are young and will gain steam later or at least when ATi can get a compiler working. contrary to your opinion gpu physx does improve the quality although not worth the cost to some. current gpu's are so powerful games cant really use them to the fullest extent. as for your view of marketing you might want to change that too. do you know who decided to market their cpu's in the early 90's?intel. look at them now 80% market share and nehalem. you can accuse nvidia of overbranding but isnt that true with almost everything else in this world? you just rant about AA but you really dont understand it at all. ATi and Nvidia have their own texture filtering algorithms. there is no such thing as specialized AA.

Quote:

Rege said "we had absolutely no time to go 'oh yeah, how can we screw ATI by the way?' Seriously, nobody ever has time to think about those kinds of things. In this situation, had we enabled something that was not tested on ATI GPUs [and broke the game as a result], there were a number of things that could have happened. The worst thing from my perspective is that the developers won't want our help in the future because we broke their game."

btw this is pretty cool.
10-04-2009, 01:02 PM
DeathReborn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Final8ty

NV has been more about marketing then anything else.
The AA issue is marketing on NVs part as somehow AA is an emerging technology.
You see all over the web from review sites saying that Physx is being used more of a marketing tool than making any real physics changes to games that it is used in.

Ther Dx11 titles in development are being made with AMDa invoment & sometimes AMDs money as well.

It looks like you have fallen more for the marketing than the real facts.

If Marketing can help a devloper get a custom made AA mode into a game that otherwise wouldn't have had it, then i'd say there's actual work going on. I never believe marketing, it's always a case of "lies, damn lies & statistics". The fact is AMD haven't done the right thing and not just complain but work to improve their situation. Havok hasn't exactly set the world on fire and Bullet is too new to have had any impact yet.

Where are those DX11 titles then? Right now they are more "coming son" than "on sale now" which is what matters in business.
10-04-2009, 01:14 PM
Xoulz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

how can you judge the quality of an API based on games. with that perspective you probably think dx10, dx10.1 and dx11 suck.you have never developed any software with physx so i dont think you have any room to say it sucks and it is currently the only way to get physics on a gpu. opencl and directcompute are young and will gain steam later or at least when ATi can get a compiler working. contrary to your opinion gpu physx does improve the quality although not worth the cost to some. current gpu's are so powerful games cant really use them to the fullest extent. as for your view of marketing you might want to change that too. do you know who decided to market their cpu's in the early 90's?intel. look at them now 80% market share and nehalem. you can accuse nvidia of overbranding but isnt that true with almost everything else in this world? you just rant about AA but you really dont understand it at all. ATi and Nvidia have their own texture filtering algorithms. there is no such thing as specialized AA.

btw this is pretty cool.

Sorry, physical object within a game were around before Ageia or Nvidia's over hyped PhysX.

Battlefield 2142 has physics, it adds to the game and anyone who plays it has use of it. Nothing new or even worth noting... as many games have physics.

You don't have to have PhysX. :rolleyes:

Secondly, you make my point about Anti-aliasing. Cards should render smooth jaggies of whatever scene they are displaying. Why does the game itself have to work specifically with a certain vendor to make it work FASTER?

Because it's an alliance between the two. To sell more games and create a fake need for a certain product. AA isn't some dark secret. There is no such thing as specialized AA?, then why is Batman and Nvidia trying to market themselves as being special?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

btw this is pretty cool.

That's all "fluff" not real physics.. please. That paper is superficial to gameplay..! :brick:
10-04-2009, 01:30 PM
Farinorco

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Perhaps, but I can guarantee that when I use it, it's only in response to actual naivete.

Not in this case, since you have said I'm naive because of saying something that I have not said. So...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solus Corvus

I don't have any ATI cards at the moment. But I'm not going to buy a game that I couldn't get the same enjoyment out of regardless of my future hardware choices.

+1. But then you have to think about all those people who are "NVIDIA users" (their future hardware choices don't include the possibility of buying a non NVIDIA card).

I suppose that what the rest of the world should do, is not buying that game. And made clear to everybody that if they are not absolutely sure about having only NVIDIA hw from now on, that they shouldn't too.
10-04-2009, 01:36 PM
Final8ty

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathReborn

If Marketing can help a devloper get a custom made AA mode into a game that otherwise wouldn't have had it, then i'd say there's actual work going on. I never believe marketing, it's always a case of "lies, damn lies & statistics". The fact is AMD haven't done the right thing and not just complain but work to improve their situation. Havok hasn't exactly set the world on fire and Bullet is too new to have had any impact yet.

Where are those DX11 titles then? Right now they are more "coming son" than "on sale now" which is what matters in business.

The DX11 titles not being on sale right now does not change the point that is being made neither does it change that fact of ATI/AMD money & involvement in them with DX11 & that ATI/AMD will not have any features turned off on NV dx11 hardware even tho NV paid no money or put any help in getting Dx11 supported in them.

Talk about Double Standards.

Might as well say why is anyone even talking about NVx300, right now they are more "coming son" than "on sale now" which is what matters in business.
10-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Chumbucket843

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xoulz

Sorry, physical object within a game were around before Ageia or Nvidia's over hyped PhysX.

yes, and gpu accelerated physics brings a new level of realism to games. not saying that physx is the one that will do it but its a start.

Quote:

Battlefield 2142 has physics, it adds to the game and anyone who plays it has use of it. Nothing new or even worth noting... as many games have physics.

You don't have to have PhysX. :rolleyes:

of course you dont have to have it.

Quote:

Secondly, you make my point about Anti-aliasing. Cards should render smooth jaggies of whatever scene they are displaying. Why does the game itself have to work specifically with a certain vendor to make it work FASTER?

you clearly didnt read the quote. if nvidia allowed it to run on ATi they would have no control over the driver which could end up making it not work if ATi released newer drivers. besides that statement you said is not true. if you knew a thing or two about AA then you would know a mipmap at its native resolution has no artifacts. when you scale it up or down then it appears.

Quote:

Because it's an alliance between the two. To sell more games and create a fake need for a certain product. AA isn't some dark secret. There is no such thing as specialized AA?, then why is Batman and Nvidia trying to market themselves as being special?

there is no need for physx. its just an addition to owning a geforce card. if there was a need for physx then no one would buy ATi cards. Unreal engine 3 does not have in game AA abilities. nvidia put it in to allow their users to achieve better quality graphics.

Quote:

That's all "fluff" not real physics.. it's superficial to gameplay..

how is that not real physics? making a whole destructable world like a sandbox takes a lot of effort and time. just because its cloth physics doesnt mean its not real.
10-04-2009, 02:34 PM
AbelJemka

Play HL2.Play Batman:AA.
Physics in HL2 bring something to the user experience. PhysX in Batman:AA is just cosmetics.
You can't play HL2 without it. You can play Batman:AA without.
10-04-2009, 03:24 PM
trinibwoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xoulz

That's all "fluff" not real physics.. please. That paper is superficial to gameplay..! :brick:

Please define "real" physics. And then define what it is that graphics cards do. If you answer both questions you'll realize how silly that statement is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadasius

You gladly accept what others give and tell you without a fight. It was just a nicer way of saying your a :cat: and a pushover where they can give you a perceptual reason in their favor and it looks good to you.

Rights as a consumer? Naw I was talking about a right to protest what people are doing.

Barking up the wrong tree there buddy. None of the above applies to me as I do own Nvidia hardware. So what exactly is there for me to cry and moan about? I should join my ATi owning brethren in the fight for graphics equality due to some false sense of self-righteousness?
10-04-2009, 03:32 PM
zalbard

PhysX is a nice thing after all, if it was given to you for free, I don't think you'd say no.
But the way Nvidia introduced it is wrong IMO. It is legal ofc, but it tricked developers into using Nvidia tools instead of their own ones so only half of the game owners can enjoy it to fullest. So they didn't just offer something new, no, they obviously :banana::banana::banana::banana:ed people using competition's products over. Like 75% of the stuff that can be done WITHOUT PhysX gets done WITH it to hurt the competition.
But the latest actions regarding disabling PhysX for gamers who PAID for it are outrageous and there is NO excuse for such crap.
10-04-2009, 04:14 PM
Xoulz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

yes, and gpu accelerated physics brings a new level of realism to games. not saying that physx is the one that will do it but its a start.

of course you dont have to have it.

you clearly didnt read the quote. if nvidia allowed it to run on ATi they would have no control over the driver which could end up making it not work if ATi released newer drivers. besides that statement you said is not true. if you knew a thing or two about AA then you would know a mipmap at its native resolution has no artifacts. when you scale it up or down then it appears.

there is no need for physx. its just an addition to owning a geforce card. if there was a need for physx then no one would buy ATi cards. Unreal engine 3 does not have in game AA abilities. nvidia put it in to allow their users to achieve better quality graphics.

BTW, nVidia didn't put the anti aliasing into Batman, the developers did. Nvidia is not a game developer or publisher.

how is that not real physics? making a whole destructable world like a sandbox takes a lot of effort and time. just because its cloth physics doesnt mean its not real.

Bro, you are mistaken!

PhysX needs EXTRA video cards to equal what the CPU can already do. We don't need superficial paper floating around or ancillary breakable tiles in our games.. :rolleyes:.

We want real physical objects, such as what the idle cores of modern CPU can deliver. PhysX is so far behind in that respect, it's ridiculous.

Here, please witness what no single Nvidia card can do. Superficial fluff such as animated glass breaking, or paper on the ground is moot, trivial and not worth mentioning. It's there as a novelty, to sell video cards for those who buy into the pseudo marketing hype!

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