I just started to look through this..on AMD's 45nm
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I just started to look through this..on AMD's 45nm
Then why all the snappy post in responce to other people...If you are above these shinanigans then why partake in them....I read through this thread a few times,, (and yes you are aloud to stave your feelings on Deneb's projected performance...), you seem to have less useful info then a statement of why you feel it is going to be so slow.. If people want to dream, let them. I seen a lot of high hopes for i7 in the Intel threads, was that wrong? If someones hopes are defeated once 45nm chips come out from AMD, thet let it be. You can't change anyone's mind.. Besides, all we have are reports and speculation..if we sit and pretend none of it is true, how does that make anything better. No one thought 4800 series GPU's would force nVidia to lower pricing the way they did due to extreme compitition that was never there from the past. Again, why are you so bent on trying to prove something in here??Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
Hello! This is my first post in this forums. I`m from Argentina.
I have reading almost all the threads about deneb in xtremesystems and I don´t know if someone had already said something about the great hint that AMD has thrown on us with the model numbers. If you you compare this numbers with the model used for Agena you can say that when they launched it they already knew that the fastest part would be the 9950. So I think is safe to say that AMD could and probably would make a 3.4 ghz model. Maybe the FX name is reserved for something faster too:shrug:. I know that there is some info about Deneb running at more than 4Ghz on air, but the models number is a good thing to look at right know. I can not help but think that AMD is doing the same move that did with ATI and the HD48xx series. What do you think about this?
Do you have reading comprehension problems?Quote:
Originally Posted by charged3800z24
There is no equivalency here between my posts and those of my detractors.
I haven't said that if you think Deneb will get the IPC boost AMD are claiming that you are a troll who should be banned and various other insults, so why is that okay for others to say that about me for thinking Deneb won't get as big an IPC boost as AMD are claiming?
Also, what on earth is with your ridiculous argument that me stating my opinion on Deneb is trying to crush other people's hopes for Deneb?
By that "logic", debates and discussions can never take place because you are calling for ONLY uncritical positive praise for AMD.
That is not how a forum like this on a site like this is meant to operate, so stop asking me stupid questions like why I am here.
I am here for the reasons this forum exists in the first place, for discussion and debate.
That a group of fools think this forum should be a mirror image of an AMD propaganda forum like AMDZone, is not something I will adhere to and I suggest once again, that you stop acting like their useful idiot.
:welcome:welcome to xtremesystems. i think amd is reserving the fx for their high end deneb chips. they are most likely not gonna put an fx in the launch and i bet after the launch stabilizes a little and if the company gets into a better financial situation then they will make some high end fx chips to see if they can take the performance crown from intel. right now amd seems to be focusing on everything but the high end.
you seem to be the only one that is a fanboy and refuses to believe the facts. im completely fine if u think that the ipc won't be as high as amd says but u can't say others are wrong because they are just following what amd has said and this time around it looks like amd has gotten back together. its fine if you think that the chip will not be as good as most people think it is or what amd says but what i don't understand is how u can attack people's opinions when they are just going off what they have been told and going off of facts. i think everyone needs to calm down. you need to stop attacking people chad and stop with the name calling and live up to what you have said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
if you notice the only people that are making comments towards you are the ones that you have attacked.Quote:
I am here for the reasons this forum exists in the first place, for discussion and debate.
Chad ,who ever claimed a 25% IPC improvement for desktop parts?? We are talking about Shanghai if you haven't noticed until now.It's a server part and server workloads are very different from desktop.
We have very limited sources of information about Deneb and most people here are just stating their opinions.
So quit beating the dead horse here and go to your beloved amdzone already.I'm sure you would feel as at home there with a lot of space for useless ranting.I don't know about their ban policies but i doubt you would get banned.
Sorry, what exactly are "the facts"?Quote:
Originally Posted by roofsniper
But I can say as I have that I think the 15 to 20% IPC gains will not materalise across the board on any kind of reasonable average.Quote:
but u can't say others are wrong because they are just following what amd has said and this time around it looks like amd has gotten back together.
You have got it completely arse about face, if people stop attacking me first, then I wouldn't have anything to respond to.Quote:
you need to stop attacking people chad
What absolute bullsh1t!!!!Quote:
if you notice the only people that are making comments towards you are the ones that you have attacked.
Do you want to explain the efforts of the following clowns:
keithlm
soundood
informal
Throwed
Oliverda
Eson
Gener_AL (UK)
B.E.E.F.
biohead
knopflerbruce
Blaber
All of them attacked me first.
I have never mentioned 25% in any context, so I can't help you here.Quote:
Originally Posted by informal
So this thread title starts off with "Deneb" just to mislead?Quote:
We are talking about Shanghai if you haven't noticed until now.
As am I, but for some reason I am not allowed to apparently.Quote:
We have very limited sources of information about Deneb and most people here are just stating their opinions.
Yet another nonsensical statement by you.Quote:
So quit beating the dead horse here and go to your beloved amdzone already.
I dont see what anything said here has to do with the release date of Deneb?? The opinion formed here about how bad or how good Deneb does is off topic. The thread title is "Deneb just around the corner?"
So what does Denebs performance have to do with that?
If anyone here wants to talk about how bad Deneb does could you please start a new thread?
No need for this comment,, not on topic..Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
Again, is this postive at all.. no.. you are not suggesting it will be slower, you must have already know it is or why would the disappointment be his...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
They are aloud to this opinion..Some are a little sensitive yes.. but feeling strongly for something is not horrible...you are stongly holding to the "will not be spectacular" notion.. and that is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
Do you have the breakdown of both process's 65nm and 45nm to prove that there is nothing that "might" do more then this? And not being to picky but Deneb is Phenom, 65nm is agena and 45 nm is Deneb...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
So here you are pressing that AMD can't even match Intel, Even though Intel has same gen processors running sdame clocks but higher cache count and thus faster, more so with the "die shrink"Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
Here again why dunb yourself down to someone else's level if are not here to attack with comments back like "mental midgets"Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
Like I said, feel free to speculate, but brings facts to why, besides that "it is just a die shrink" If there is proof that nothing else they have done from one process to the next is not enough to aid in any general boost then lay it out. We can discuss it. There are still soem of us wiling to do this and speculate some more till results hit the net..Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
I never said that everyone else was not responding wrongly towards you, but you have made some snappy post in regaurds to them. I have some above... Not all your post were bad, and yes there were more in regaurds to you from others here..and I apologize for that. No one should feel unwelcome here cuase they have another view on the matter. But can we get back to the facts and or hear say floting around.. and discuss what might be..and if someone wants to dream.. can they be free to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
No one without direct access to Deneb results knows whether the IPC improvements will come in at the high end or low end of expectations, so I can't see any reason for why one view should be hailed and the other condemned.Quote:
Originally Posted by charged3800z24
As I have already stated, I hope that the people believing the high end improvements come about are right, but I have expressed why I suspect they won't be.
The reason for this is at least the following:
1. I am not convinced that the improvements to the core will be that much more significant than is usually the case when a core gets a shrink and cache added.
Yes AMD have stated that they are going to tidy some things up, but do you really think that doesn't happen with other shrinks?
2. What has been the best IPC improvement we have seen from a combined shrink, cache increase and problem fixes we have seen in the last 15 years?
No one has been able to come up with another time where from what Deneb will be going through, IPC has increased to the extent AMD are claiming.
Shangai is Deneb, just for anyone thinking they are different. The only difference is that Shanghai is validated as a server part and wont use plain old DDR2/3(though thats probably more a bios/board implementation issue).
Shanghai/Deneb is more than just a die shrink, AMD has already stated this before.... However, I get the feeling it is more tweaks rather than any large wholesale changes. Eg, widening data paths, or enlargening TLBs etc.
Some parts they are transferring are not really optmised much. AFAIK there is something about them using the same cells for the L3 cache at 45nm as they did at 65nm, so the L3 cache density won't improve that much. This makes the die larger than it would be. Intel has always had the best cache density unfortunately.
However there are some drawbacks, this is supposedly their 1st implementation of the 45nm so clocks etc wont be as good as they should be, however the yields are good and clocks are better than expected.
I know magny cours the 6die is the 1st to use improved 45nm process, dont know how quickly they will shift the rest of production to that.
Im still putting my money on an avg ipc increase of 10-15%, closer to 15%. However its the better than expected clocks they will get that will help close the gap. Of course there will be selected benchmarks, esp on server Shanghai/Deneb will look really good.
However Nehalem 2P servers come out 2009, so AMD won't have the lead for very long.
Finally, I really like AMD, and only use AMD, but anyone thinking Shanghai/Deneb has a chance of beating Nehalem is smoking crack. Note that in the leaked internal AMD memo even they did NOT claim absolute performance leadership. Just performance per watt leadership.
AMD next chance to take the leadership crown is with Bulldozer, until then they will be competitive on price and performance per watt but thats it.
there are picture some where the die is actually slightly smaller now, in one video he stated improve SSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilBlitz
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Boga
yea they are pretty much the same but talk about them is different. people might say shanghai has a 25% ipc improvement but that would be in server applications. the same 25% ipc improvement can not be compared to the performance of deneb. but if shanghai does well then most likely deneb will do well.Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilBlitz
Chad, I suggest leaving this thread and not returning.
Any more posts beyond my post will results in your removal from AMD section.
demonkey, yes it is smaller, 283 down to 243 mm2. Though at well over 200mm2 it is still on the large side.The 1meg L2 90nm Opteron was large at 230mm2.
Yes I would classify improved SSE as a minor improvement. He could just mean improved support ie new supported SSE versions and or instructions, but not necessarily performance enhanced per clock.
They weren't originally going to have SSE4 till Bulldozer, maybe they changed their mind and brought it in with Shanghai?
roofsniper, shanghai will probably be better for server than desktop I agree, but I still think 25% avg ipc gain for sever apps seems a little too optimistic.
i think amd said at one point it would be 25% on server and it sounds optimistic to me as well but they are designing the chips for servers and the desktops come as an added bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilBlitz
Found a quote HERE. This may have been quoted in the our Deneb thread but a quick scan by me did not uncover it. This is likely just marketing but I thought it was worth citing for the record.Quote:
Originally Posted by roofsniper
I suspect that Pat's words are misinterpreted by the author. I think Informal's math exercise is closer to how we could see 35% improvement.Quote:
A vice president of Advanced Micro Devices said in an interview that the forthcoming quad-core AMD Opteron processor code-named Shanghai will have roughly 35% performance advantage over predecessor at the same clock-speed. If the information is correct, then AMD’s chips will have all chances to challenges products by arch-rival Intel in the higher-end segment.
Pat Patla, general manager of AMD’s server and workstation chip business, said in an interview with IDG News Service that AMD Opteron “Shanghai” would “give a 35% performance boost over Barcelona on average” and would also trim power consumption by 35%, which automatically transforms into colossal performance per watt improvements over existing quad-core AMD Opteron processors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by informal
a very calm and fair decision, now we need to alert the Mod/owner of AMDzone, that hes on his way.Quote:
Originally Posted by FUGGER
LOL :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by soundood
Anyway its looks to be an exciting 2 months on the way.
Deb 2.8-3.0 + 4GB ram + 4870 would be nothing to laugh at.
Oh man you just made my day :D,that was soo funny :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by soundood
AMDzone is in for a ride :).
Anyhow i searched the spec.org for any newer additions on the SH Opterons and had no luck :(.Maybe the other results will come on the night of the official launch(next Wednesday).
Edit: found an interesting article on the project Ridgeback design cycle.Ridgeback is internal AMD code name for Shanghai
http://www.statesman.com/business/co...0shanghai.html
Quote:
ADVANCED MICRO DEVICES INC.
AMD seeks redemption - and sales - with Shanghai
Chipmaker used lessons of Barcelona in revamping design process
By Kirk Ladendorf
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Monday, November 10, 2008
To the outside world, Advanced Micro Devices Inc. calls its latest chip Shanghai. To the engineering team, the usual name for the project is Ridgeback. But the real name for this chip could be "Redemption."
AMD wants to restore some of the luster to its image that was lost when its last flagship chip, Barcelona, was months late and plagued by embarrassing bugs.
The chipmaker was counting on Barcelona to revive its sagging fortunes in its perennial battle with Intel Corp., the kingpin of the microprocessor market.
But Barcelona's public problems had the opposite effect. They cost AMD heavily in lost revenue, lost profits, lost morale and lost confidence from its customers.
Now comes Shanghai and the hope for a recovery of reputation and, maybe, sales.
The new chip began shipping to computer makers in October and will become the brain of new servers that show up this month. The formal unveiling is Thursday.
Shanghai is similar to Barcelona, but there have been dozens of enhancements, including the addition of larger on-board memory caches to spur performance.
AMD says the chip will quickly become the standard setter for Windows-compatible server chips, although Intel will counter with its own high-performance chips in the weeks ahead.
"I am delighted with the chip," said Jeff VerHeul , AMD's vice president of silicon design. He cited the reasons: "A, it is early; B, it has greater-than-expected performance; and, most importantly, our customers like it."
He backs the assertion of CEO Dirk Meyer , who called the new chip "the best server product on the market."
The company has yet to deliver precise performance metrics, but VerHeul said Shanghai will deliver roughly 20 percent more performance than Barcelona while running at the same speed. Plus, it will run faster.
The new chip, like Barcelona, contains four processing engines, or cores, but it is far more complex because it is made with a more advanced manufacturing process.
Analysts are not quite as enthusiastic as AMD.
"They need to rebuild their reputation and re-establish credibility," said Nathan Brookwood with Insight 64. "They need to demonstrate that they are executing and delivering on their promises. This should help there."
AMD is aiming for a financial rebound as well after two years of losses. The chipmaker has sold some nonproductive operations and announced plans to spin off its German factory operations into a joint venture it will own with a sovereign investment company based in Abu Dhabi.
In addition, the company announced last week that it had cut 500 jobs worldwide, including 154 in Austin, as part of an effort to cut operating costs as it aims for consistent profitability.
The problems with Barcelona forced AMD's leadership to take an intense look at its design process and fix the flaws it found. Part of that fix involved a new procedure for designing complex, high-performance chips.
In the past, the company relied mainly on one of its two major design centers in Austin or Sunnyvale, Calif. But the work on the new chip would be split among at least five design centers around the world: Austin; Sunnyvale; Fort Collins, Colo.; Dresden, Germany; and Bangalore, India.
The first four centers would all work on key sections of the chip, and the design center in Bangalore, created in 2005, would be responsible for putting the pieces together in a complete design.
The project was directed by a veteran AMD engineering manager Raghuram Tupuri, who moved to India in 2005 to get the Bangalore design center started. He returned to Austin last year.
The approach was the brainchild of VerHeul, who dubbed it Centers of Excellence. He had tried a similar approach at IBM Corp. on engineering projects involving the design of servers.
Splitting up a major chip design among several design centers can result in faster completion of the design, but VerHeul and Tupuri both say the approach requires extensive communications and personal rapport among the key players in the various far-flung design centers.
"We had people from the various sites spend time together so they got to know each other," VerHeul said. "Developing personal relationships is very, very key."
Tupuri said the global design effort came together as one big team, with engineers eventually feeling comfortable enough to call one another on important questions before, during and well after normal work hours.
"We are standing on the shoulders of the Barcelona team and getting the benefit of the lessons we learned from Barcelona," Tupuri said. The engineers "wanted to succeed and put Barcelona behind them. They looked at Ridgeback definitely as a redemption."
The key objective of the team was to check and recheck the design to improve the odds that the first silicon prototypes of the new design would function well. Achieving that goal saved months in the development cycle.
"We were all keen on getting the first silicon healthy," Tupuri said. "If the first silicon is healthy, then the glide-path (to product launch) is set. Even if we delayed the tape-out (formal completion of the design), we wanted to get the first silicon right."
If Shanghai is as good as advertised, then it should help boost AMD's sales of high-performance chips in the months ahead.
But analyst Ashok Kumar with Collins Stewart LLC says the impact of the new chip might be muted by the weakening world economy, which has put a big dent in sales of servers to major corporate buyers.
"Demand has fallen off a cliff," Kumar said. Shanghai "will let AMD hold its own in the current environment, which is the best they can do."
LOL, laughed my arse off:rofl::clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by soundood
Im really curious what Deneb will bring. Im about to order a Core i7 (yes I know:p:). AMD is fine, but Im slightly done with the low quality crap motherboards. It ain't the first time since C2D/C2Q that a motherboard here went crappy and took the CPU right with it. But well, if Deneb is good Ill certainly buy it anyway, although it wont be in my primary PC though. But hey, in the end it's about the overclocking fun anyway:up:
This is my post from a Shanghai thread in News section:
I found this info interesting:
Courtesy of Johan De Gelas :rolleyes:Quote:
That reassured us that our transaction log disk was not a bottleneck. On a "normal" SLES 10 SP2 we achieved 1400 tr/s on a quad core (an anonymous CPU for now ;-). But Anand's article really got us curious and we replaced our mighty Cheetah disk with the Intel x25-M SSD (80 GB). All of a sudden we achieved 1900 tr/s! No less than 35% more transactions, just by replacing the disk that holds the log with the fastest SSD of the moment. That is pretty amazing if you consider that there is no indication whatsoever that we were bottlenecked by our log disk.
Wonder what that anonymous CPU is :p:
Here are results to compare from his previous article:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=88814
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=88812
Does anybody know the overall speed increase of C2D over Barcelona clock for clock? I know I am making a very rough estimate, but I'd like to put some kind of numbers in my head.Quote:
The company has yet to deliver precise performance metrics, but VerHeul said Shanghai will deliver roughly 20 percent more performance than Barcelona while running at the same speed. Plus, it will run faster.