I work with companies with similar ethics. I never said I worked with ATi. I love how people who don't own their own business have a opinion on something they know nothing about :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clairvoyant129
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I work with companies with similar ethics. I never said I worked with ATi. I love how people who don't own their own business have a opinion on something they know nothing about :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clairvoyant129
When i look at Nvidia parnetship i see only big games from big companies. And for you thta's AMD who chose who they work with? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
Seems you greet Nvidia here at XS with nice unbiased post...Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
I understand why you understand Rocksteady attitude toward Nvidia. Nvidia both give you something that's totally fair you give us all can in return :down:
*Why so serious?* Play nice!
I am pretty sure this thread was beat the hell out of anyway and I think most said what they wanted to as well.
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Originally Posted by Heinz68
heinz, saaya's quote is probably the most telling in the thread... but it seems you skipped right past it....Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
No AA on the PS3 either. I downloaded the demo. Whooooa. Jaggies. I played the retail version on pc with a Nvidia sli set up with physx on high...yea she looks puuuurdy. Physx real does make the game pop in subtle ways. If its tru Nvidia seems to be sleeping on DX 11 IMO thats a huge business mistake considering the upcoming titles alledged to support DX 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
This whole argument about Nvidia paying to have AA support on Batman sort of sounds a lil like the whole Assassins Creed issue a while back with Dx 10.1 implemented with ATI cards, and Nvidia allegedy catching a hissy fit with Ubi for doing it then having Ubi removing the DX 10.1 support from the game.
Personally I was mad that Ubi actually caved in and released a patch to remove DX 10.1 but at the end of the day it is business. Its not always fair. It happens.
If u really want to show your disagreement for things like that happening start a boycott or something. Try to get it big enough that people will notice. Put pressure on the big wigs. That's a start. Better then just complaining about it in forums and "hopping" things change on their own.
If Nv did step to Rocksteady and said listen..we know the Unreal Engine doesnt support AA natively lets work with you, and spend some cash so the game supports AA atleast on our hardware then hey...that was a smart move. They jumped on a heavily anticipated game and it paid off for them. If Ati just didn't bother to contact the devs and basically thought the game would run fine as is thats on them.
If there was foul play Ati should file suit. Not sure what precedence they can base the suit on though.
And people complaining physx cannot be run with Ati cards is like saying Burger King wont sell McDonald's fries with thier value meals. We know u can find a work around but why would u expect Nv to actually have their physx work with the competition natively? I wouldnt. That's just me.
I ultimately blame the game developer! Some are weak and "whore" themselves out for money.
When NV said, "Hey, we want you to get AA working(in game) on our cards for the Batman game and here's some money/help." The game developer should have said, "Fantastic!, however, we will also try to make it work on ALL cards that can play our game, not just yours. If you don't agree with that then no deal!".
THAT'S what should have happened. The fact that NV "armtwists"(Huddy's word) the developers with all these different tactics only shows that NV thinks that bribing is the best way to help get their cards to work..and/or work faster than their competition. (This is arguably a shady tactic. I think there should be NO exclusivity. Help sure, exculsivity, NO!)
It's both company's fault. NV for throwing so much money, not just for extra features, but also for certain exclusitivity in certain games, but also the game developers who are "whoring" themselves out and not being up front and firm with NV and telling them, "Hey, we're going to make our games work the BEST with EVERY CARD we possibly can."
And I believe that any game developer would want EVERY card to run as fast as possible using their game...no way they would exclude any card from performing at it's highest possible unless they were told, bribed, coerced, (fill in the bank) by someone else.
how naive ppl are.
all those who complain are obviously worker bees hoping for a perfect world.
as pointed out by many. its a pure business.
this happens all the time and in many times ppl dont even notice it.
just because a big company like amd is ranting about it ppl notice it.
+1 for all those who just said this is just business.
every penny earned is always a penny less for somebody else regardless any self justification.
Oh, so because NVidia sends us hardware to test software on, we're automatically fanboys? They don't give us anything for our personal systems, only for the office, and it generally comes with a large NDA. Yeah, that's totally buying me off, isn't it. In fact, it totally bought me off into buying a 4850.. Yeah, NVidia did an awesome job buying me off with that one, didn't it. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by AbelJemka
I say AMD should work with whoever asks for their assistance. If a company is developing something that the their consumers will enjoy, then isn't it in their best interests to help said company so those consumers will have the best experience possible with their cards?
Think about this for a second, the last time ATi helped sponsor a game anyone actually cared about was HL2 and maybe guildwars which did well for a little while(but GW could be run on any hardware, usually maxed out even still at any resolution), and then just fell off the planet. Not saying ATi should only work with big companies, but working with these side-car gangs only and expecting it to make a difference in everyone's eyes is being naive.
Let's put it this way, the original CoJ was the last title ATi worked with AFAIK, which was around the time the HD2900 came out. Now, since there's no sales data on the PC version, we'll look at the x360 version(which the console versions generally sell 3x as many as their pc counter-parts)... 250,000. That's right, only 250k copies sold. :rofl:
So, them putting in all that time and effort really made a big difference to AMD's costumers didn't it? They sure all did get to enjoy what AMD helped them accomplish. See the problem here? They should work with both small AND big developers, and multiple titles at the same time. The problem is, unlike NVidia, they lack the staff to do so.
Do you know why NVidia have multiple driver sets pop up every month? They have multiple driver teams all working at the same time, and it's no problem for NVidia to have each of those teams working with the various developers to make sure NV have a driver ready for the customer within 24 hours of the games release... ATi couldn't do that even if they tried to, that's the problem.
Basically, it narrows down to this. NVidia puts out a lot of work with it's developers, putting the costumers money to good use, in a way to gives back TO that costumer. AMD can't physically do it as they lack the man power or the money to do so, and as such everyone is all up in arms saying NVidia is bullying ATi around, because they're using the customers money to help bring more features to their customer? Are you serious? Do you NOT see how blatantly ridiculous this sounds?
Then, when NVidia does make something happen in a title that it wouldn't have happened in, and doesn't handle the testing for AMD, all of the sudden they're doing something bad for the consumer and should be burned at the stake? Lets see here...Compare some of the consumers having access to a feature to none of the consumers having that access.
I'm just going to say it, since I'm frankly tired of people complaining when ATi doesn't give developers support and NVidia does, so things end up bad for ATi and they blame NVidia. You knew ATi wasn't going to get the features added and NVidia were, why did you buy the ATi card.
p.s. Yes I know that sounded biased, but frankly it's the most realistic way to look at it. If you're that sick of ATi not having access to features, then why not buy the cards that do and quit complaining. :shrug: Sounds like a common sense situation to me.
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Originally Posted by Your_Boss
- AA have been working with AMD/ATI GPU cards with the demo, by simply change the ID of the cards, or remove from the INI, all things related to the detection of hardware and force AA by catalyst ( demonstration was made on ati Blogs).. when the final game have been released: a Securerom have been added who prevent this manipulation.
I have not try myself this method: so i can't tell if AMD/ATI lies on this point or not. But if it's true, all the "theory " like ATI could not use AA with Unreal3 are useless in this discussion ..
We all know when a game is in project, game companies look for money for this: - Nvidia is an investitors in many games company for the project they choose ( crysis, batman, etc.. all games they think will become blockbusters, it's good marketing)... i know the time are hard for game companies, so find peoples who want put money on their projects are not easy...
I will not say it's the devs team fault; mostly i will mostly look who pay them ( the game company) and what interest they have to keep good relations with Nvidia.
Business is business, nobody is questionning this.Quote:
Originally Posted by cstkl1
The question is about the way to make business.
please list one listed first board company that we wont questionQuote:
Originally Posted by AbelJemka
"the way to make business"
i noticed it when playing the game, and immediatly subtracted 1 credit off of nvidias karma account :D and yes, i actually base my hw purchase decisions on their karma scores... not exclusively, but it does matter...Quote:
Originally Posted by cstkl1
most people rant about companies being unethical all day and then support them as soon as they have an offer that saves them 10$...
Sure, and the Joker thought the people on the two ferries would blow each other up...and they didn't. But wait, that is just a movie....or is it.Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
*Darth Vader voice* I find your lack of faith...disturbing.
http://maximusimperium.net/gallery/d...darthvader.jpg
this works like this for me tooQuote:
Originally Posted by saaya
The problem isn't that NV is helping the devs implement a feature in the game. It's that they had them disable it for non NV hardware. Nobody in this thread is complaining that they can't use GPU PhysX on their ATI card, even though that is obviously a feature NV also helped the devs include in this game. But AA does work on both Nvidia AND ATI cards. Having code to detect cards and disable the feature while playing on competitor's cards is what the issue is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
I agree that AMD should change the way they interact with developers. But it's sad if this developer needed handholding from NV just to get AA implemented and then couldn't take the 5 minutes it would take to run the build on an ATI card to make sure AA worked there too.
Testing and debugging takes more than 5 minutes for any feature. Something could run from the jump, and later crash if you stand at a specific angle of a certain room if a body is in a certain spot. Thus, the reason why the developer said they haven't had time to validate it for ATi based cards, because NVidia did all of the validation work for their end for the developer.
Remember, this is an engine that has been known to have problems with AA.
no, i read it, and thats what my post was directed towards...Quote:
Originally Posted by 570091D
yes, their support probably isnt very good, but refusing their help once they DO come through cause they previously let you down is childish imo...
and like i said, its punishing quite some of your customers that havent done anything wrong...
No, the engine has not any problems with AA. It simply uses a technique (deferred shading) that is not compatible with standard MSAA and that requires a custom AA implementation if you want some AA.Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
About the testing thing, I simply refuse to believe that they have tested all the game, with all the features, in all cases, in an exhaustive way, for ATi hw but they have leave out of time to test just exactly with the AA they have just programmed, and they have decided to program a check to not let ATi users to run it just in case and this way protect them... :ROTF:
Even if that was the case, seeing as in a first view the filter works correctly, there's no single developer that would have took it out for ATi hw. They would leave it as it were, and if it was buggy, bad luck and patch when it is known. Like if it were the first time that a game goes on sale with a bug.
Everybody knows perfectly good why the AA doesn't work on ATi.
Just testing the basic functionality of the feature could be done very quick. Full testing to make sure it works as expected and doesn't crash could be done by a beta tester. Surely they have at least 1 beta tester with an ati card.Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
If they properly coded the feature using standard instructions and it still crashed or didn't work on ATI cards then the responsibility would be on ATI to fix their drivers or hardware. But instead they decided to limit a feature that, in fact, does work on ATI hardware just because they were to lazy find out that it does.
Ohhh please, how it was working after some modding in the demo ( disable the detection of ATI card), and then when game was released this mod was no more working.. If the game was crashing cause the fault of ATI, they will have the possibility to say : ATI need update their drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
You speak like game companies thoses days cares about the " gamer experience ", but we all know theres only one way they think: money, money, money,... how games like GTA4 can hit the market if it was different?
At first page of this thread: the reasons why AA was not working was: cause ATI can't do this type of AA, now, it's cause devs was not sure AA with ATI will not make crash the games on certain part of the game .., then what it will be?.. AA look ugly with AA cards and they don't want show a ugly game?..
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Originally Posted by DilTech
You're innocent since you prove guilty. That's the way that's functionning in almost the whole planet because that's the right way.Quote:
Originally Posted by cstkl1
Basically you want me to prove you that AMD is innocent, thinking that if AMD isn't innocent, it's guilty.
Implicitly, you confess that Nvidia is guilty but you think that is they both guilty, there is no problem.
Uhm, that is a very very strange way to put it...Quote:
Originally Posted by DilTech
Noone expects nvidia to do any testing for amd and you know that very well. What people expect is that when nvidia helps to make a basic feature available, the developer is not forced by nvidia to disable this feature on other hardware it runs on as well.
I don't understand. You seem very impressed with nvidia somehow, yet claim this is not the result of them sending you hardware. Why are you so impressed with them? So they have the luxoury to be able to throw more money at dev relations than ati, this does not give them the right to ask gamedevelopers to disable certain things on ati hardware.
And the "this is business" argument doesn't really make much sense either. It's not business for ati... Were basic features disabled in hl2 cause ati helped with that game? No.
Ultimately i think some folks in here have a hard time looking at this from a consumer point of view. Competition is good, keeps prices low, makes companies perform, but sabotaging the competing products is not healthy, innovative competition, it's the opposite of that and makes us move backward instead of forward.
First, CoJ was, up until the past few months, the last title ATi had in their GitG program as far as I can tell. If you can find one besides the upcoming DX11 titles, feel free to point those out.
Abel, I've said a few times we HAVE asked ATi/AMD for support(not even just hardware, but run into rendering snags with their hardware), that's how I knew that you end up stuck calling customer service, which Saaya confirmed... We asked, they ignore, we get stuck on a loop. It's so bad sometimes that if we have a problem we make the new guy do it, when it should usually be someone who really knows the issue. NVidia support any developer who calls them, ATi you're lucky if you finally get patched through to someone who knows what they're talking about... That's the cold hard truth. You say I have no proof, what am I suppose to do, start illegally recording my conversations to prove to people on a web forum that amd CAN do wrong? You have a very well respected member of this forum(Saaya) who DID work the job on here for AMD telling you this IS what happens, what more do you need?
Where I come from, we call that a witness. Now it's my word WITH a witness from the company against ATi's claims... You know what judges call that? Guilty. If you really want to be that naive, and think that because AMD said they work with developers it's true, be my guest, I'm tired of arguing with those who are too dense to understand that this IS the case, even when multiple sources, including ex-AMD staff, development houses, etc all tell you otherwise...
As for who nvidia works with, if you look they work with companies big and small. Thanks for posting the link and reminding everyone of that. You see, there's more titles that NVidia's TWIMTBP touched in the past year than ATi's GitG has in it's entire existance. I don't need to go out of my way to prove that, a 2 second glance at NVidia's website does that for you. How's that program funded? NVidia's profits. Where does NVidia's profits come from? The customer. As such, it's them using the customers money to help make sure games play fine with the hardware the customer invested in. There's no opinion to that, it's right in front of you
In any way, shape, or form you look at it you're arguing a losing battle. It's getting tiresome and frankly boring, because you're just going to make the same claims even though the proof is right in front of your eyes. The fact that you ignore it only shows your true motivation in said situation.
I'm impressed by hardware period. I just find it funny that everyone acts like NVidia is the devil, and that AMD is the saint, when they've never dealt with either company on a business or personal level. I'm impressed by how well nvidia DOES work with developers to help out, and if you need hardware to test your software with they will have it to you rather quickly and painlessly. Most of the time they even pay for the shipping themselves. We don't get to take those cards home, so it's not like we're being bribed on a personal level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursus
That may sound like a cop-out, or however you want to look at it, but it IS the case. My old 8800GTX I bought myself, and my current card is an ATi because I sold my 8800GTX(for a killing, might I add) and for the money I was going to spend the 4850 1gb was the best for my buck.
The only thing I have an issue with is the misinformation thrown all over this forum, and ironically enough it's usually pro-ati.
'Get in Game' is over because that was ATI partnership program. So if you look for 'Get in game' for DX11 titles you can search a long time. But if your search for AMD support for next DX11 you will find with ease. Sure that not the mighty TWIMTBP but it exist. Sayaa even post a link about AMD developers policy : http://tv.hexus.net/show/2008/09/Int...Richard_Huddy/
Saaya said :
Does Sayaa says AMD give NO SUPPORT at all (you imply that Diltech) : NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by saaya
Does Sayaa says AMD support far from perfect : YES.
Maybe Sayaa can give more informations and effectly tell that the situation he explains happened all the time?
About the link i failed to see small developer sorry. An if you watch closely in 2009 there is 15 games sponsored by Nvidia.
For AMD, there are here and i count 7 games for 2009.
http://game.amd.com/us-en/play_games.aspx
For you're praising about Nvidia and the noble way they use money customers give them. I find it because you tell yourself before that AMD lack staff and money to do their best.
So basically you want AMD to do exactly the same than Nvidia (thing they don't want just watch the interview), but you know they can't with the same magnitude than Nvidia because they lack money and employees.
What you want seem impossible so just burn AMD? :shrug:
It's not so much impossible, just that they need to work harder to achieve it. Just a little support is a good start. I don't expect them to do what they can't financially afford, they just need to be willing to work with those who ask for a bit of help rather than those they choose because they think their game will have the most marketing impact.
I don't say they don't give support ever, by the way, I said it's very VERY difficult to get in touch with them to get said support.