Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by markr
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
I bought that 0608 chip from Nemesis (cheers bud!), this is it under water.
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/3...zdefaul.th.jpg
Printable View
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by markr
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
I bought that 0608 chip from Nemesis (cheers bud!), this is it under water.
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/3...zdefaul.th.jpg
Newer update for DB. Dropped Vcore slightly. This is rock solid. No more time to play without having it watercooled, because temps are too high for higher Vcore.
http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/2930/31fn.th.jpg
That's what my spare is. I ran it at 2950 24/7 but to me it wouldn't be worth that kind of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
Why don´t you just get a good 165 stepping instead, it will be cheaper and with the proper stepping and gear you would reach 3ghz too.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
Damn Thunder, your 0610 is a trooper. I can run mine fine in 2.9 range in low 1.4V range. But right now, 3.0 needs 1.55V(during the day, 1.52 or so at night). It's hot here though, about 30C and rising. Pimpin ain't easy in SoCal. It doesn't matter much to me though, even at 1.55V, my temps won't go over 43C:woot: Removing the IHS has done wonders for my temps.Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderstruck!
And I got this CPU off ebay for $310 dollars, shizzzzz.
I just saw a 170 with this stepping, and wondered whether it was any good.
CCBEW 0609 FPAW
Search and google found nothing for this one. The guy on ebay claimed that it does 2.8ghz at 1.55v, but we all know that those aren't the real screenshots on there, right.
I'd appreciate any response soon, as I might make a bid, if people think it's a 3ghz stepping.
[EDIT] Upon further thought, I'm guessing the guy just made a typo. Can anyone confirm?
2.8GHz @ 1.55Vcore is NOT GOOD so I'd advise you to not buy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Burky
Wicked sick Thunder! i hope to achieve 2.8 also..since my mem is now rated for that high.
Also, I saw plenty of those 0609's on ebay, and they were noob or very amateur overclockers, which they would pump any voltage in there, just to say, "hey, i reached xx and xx speed!"
I know that, but I also know that most people on ebay just use false SP2004 results, probably not even done by that stepping of cpu, and therefore I am interested to know genuine results for this stepping.Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha0ne
As said in the previous post, the guy is probably some noob who just put in some good volts to get a good clock, but may not have maxed it out.
And with it being a 170 I maybe could push it a bit further. Problem is I'm in Europe, and none of the killa steppings like CCB1E 0610 seem to exist over here.Quote:
Originally posted by CompGeek
Honorable mention:
CCBWE 0609FPAW (Unconfirmed precise averages, but seems to be 2.8-2.9)
nice update thunder. i got mine up to 335x9 last night on 1.55v. my cooling is the problem. i think i could atleast hit 339x9 with 1.5v with better cooling. i don't have time to test it though since my new chip should be here today.
@burky don't support those morons on ebay. 9/10 they are selling crap. buy from one the guys on the forum here, or from a merchant that will let you pick your stepping.
Nearly getting to 3 gig, core 1 has starting failing now that im getting up there, and instead of prime rounding errors im getting 'ILLEGAL SUMOUT' errors ?
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/2...z1525vb.th.jpg
I ran prime last night at 3gig for over and hour then my pc just restarted, windows seems flaky at 3gig like it will just restart when i open a internet browser, yet it seems to be able to run prime ok for an hour :confused:
i was having issues like that... i couldn't get a good test on my ccbbe 0610dpmw because of how windows would crap out for no reason. wiped the hdd and re-installed windows, everything seems to be working fine now. i 30 minute primed up to 309x9 @ 1.35v, currently priming @ 311x9 @ 1.4. hopefuly work my way up, find the max, and then start on my 0615dpmw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious
Additional Comment:
May 17, 2006
Delivered
Pittsburgh, PA
i just know she's gonna make papa soooo proud :)
is that the 0615EPMW? i cant wait for my 0610DPMW :D
its an earlier batch too.
oh well, i was going to think about selling my ccbwe 0551 to pay for it...but the company is european and im going to save my cash for conroe/AM2 and see how things goQuote:
Originally Posted by CompGeek
thanks though!:)
yes sir. but i have a feeling that a lot of my time is going to be spent dealing with my isp tonight :mad: internet keeps losing connection, and my g/f needs it for work. :mad: :mad: :mad: i hate comcast!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by blazin-asian
I see you're in PA, get Verizon FIOS! Or at least DSL.. in 3 years of DSL I never had it drop out, and in ~9 months of FIOS it's been great, only disconnects have been when the power goes out and I have to connect manually.. more a router thing though
i don't have FIOS in my area yet :( and i don't have a land tele line, i think i'm going to sign up with verizon to get a land line though and get dsl from them. i've had their mobile service for 2 years now, and i've had excellent service from their, product and customer service. sorry for the OT
I don't think the Seller is BSing you on that one. The two CCBWE 0609 FPAWs I have played with both did around 2.8 with 1.55v.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burky
Slavearm
Yup so did mine. 2.55@stock and the .1v/100mhz applied from there on out
maybe i can ask here:
i have a very, very strange problem with my opty 165 & 170 and Ultra-D and SLI-DR motherboards. The problem is that the cpu temp reported by SmartGuardian stays the same under idle and load. This just can't be true. If i look in the bios, that reports a different temperature, and something tells me that the bios is right. How come temps don't increase under load? Even disabling the fan won't help. Temps stay the same.
Changing CPU to opty 170 will not help, even changing from Ultra-D to SLI-DR, or other bios will not help. Will a reinstall do any good?
Please help! Thanks!
well, the 0615epmw is here.... i forgot it was a retail box... now i have 2 of these hsf's
What program? NF4 drivers installed?Quote:
Originally Posted by SPivX
correction on the stepping... its a ccbbe 0615DPMW
I got $50 bucks that that 0615 performs exactly like the 0610. Nice catch.
i'd bet i get higher oc on stock volts with lower temps, and the same overall oc
It depends, some 0610 are excellent, some are worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb
is it true that the earlier 904 batch is supposed to be good?
that seems to be the general conclusion... speaking of, my 904 is officially for sale nowQuote:
Originally Posted by blazin-asian
Yeah, 904 is the best of the two that are in circulation. 3Ghz at 1.456v for me. My results have been from the 904 variety.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazin-asian
here's a good start
Um, I have a 904 too, and it takes me 1.55V to run 3.0Ghz, and that isn't prime stable, just 3D stable...and it takes about 1.45V to run at 2.9, and I think it might need more, or my windows could be corrupt.Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb
What variations do we have so that we can determine why this is? Well, first off, my ambient temps are horrible, it's usually at least above 29C here...but, I have the IHS off, so my temps NEVER go over 45C, basically no matter what voltage. Could be I'm still holding myself back by other bios options though, but I could imagine what. I've done some pretty exhaustive tweaking.
Second, my whole batch number is as follows: 1434904C60509...notice the last three digits? I believe yours is 70X, and mine is 509...
itznfb, what are the last three numbers of your batch?
On a side note, I think I might need to reinstall windows:( <-------pwned!@#
Hey, do you think you might be slightly mobo limited???Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb
my batch is 1434904C60987
i have to reinstall windows all the time, i corrupt windows on a weekly basis, if not more, and this WILL effect your overall OC
i actually know i'm quite mobo limitedQuote:
Originally Posted by phi|os
Hmm, I will definitely mull this over, lol. So what do you think the last three numbers specify? The actual CPU #? That would mean I have the earliest between Thunder, you and I; Thunder would have the "middle child", and you'd are the youngest...just an entertaining thought, I have no way of knowing...Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb
yea, i have no idea what they mean, all i know is the stepping break down.
Dunno if batch number is relevant. Too many inconsistent results to say something like "lower is better".
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=93926
Heres my result on my 170 CCBWE 0551 UPMW
http://rigshowcase.com/img/281aOTVr/4231
nice. i like the hitman bg too ;)
Mine was 434 IIRC, and needed 1.53v to do 3ghz not prime but 3D stable.Quote:
Originally Posted by phi|os
as a little side note:::
i got this chip to boot into windows 334x9 @ 1.25v, but it wasn't even close to stable, it rebooted while opening cpuz =\
still impressive, i may not be selling this chip.
Some days ago got mine, its CCBBE 0610DPMW, max stable with default votage and default cooling was 310 x 9, its ok I think, with 1.375v it goes 2.8+ Ghz! Hope burnin will help me to get 311 x 9 stable with 1.35v or less :D Booted easy into the Windows with 3Ghz and a little bit more voltage, must repair waterhead to lower temperatures! :p:
<a href="http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=310x9prime7bb.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2170/310x9prime7bb.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>
hey man looks like u are on here too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashelz
sure, also reinstalled SmartGuardian a few times and also MBM and Everest / Sandra report same temp. I will try to reinstall nF4 drivers. If that doesn't help i'll consider reinstalling Windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
Well, finally got all my parts, and have been stress testing everything out...
So far, for my 0609, I have:
It was memtesting before for 6 passes.
It is trying to be prime stable ..so far :
[IMG]http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4...est46kt.th.jpg[/IMG]
Looks like my case *sucks*:shock2: , and needs cooling for the PWMIC (this is on a DFI Ultra-D). Wonder what the limit is for those? 90C?
Oh, this is on air cooling with a Freezer 64 Pro.
^yeah probably around 90. But of course lower temps provides better performance.. you can test if it's performing like it should be measuring your vcore and vdimm with a multimeter, if it's stable then the temp is fine.
PS ITZNFB- can you test the lowest voltage stable @ 3GHz? That would be a good indicator of overall performance of the chip :) I'd really appreciate it.. if it can do it at a way low voltage it may just force me to pick one up :(
edit: actually thats a way good sign, mine is stable at 3GHz@1.425v but it BSOD's on boot at 1.35 and sometimes 1.375, depending on temps :eek: So your might be stable at stock or less
i think the chip will yield much better results on a Ultra D, or SLi-D/DR than the board i'm using. plus my best cooling solution at this point in time is a TT Big Typhoon =\
i'm guessing i'll hit 3ghz @ 1.5v, maybe 1.475v. on a better board, who knows. but i may be way off, i haven't seen how this chip scales yet.
If it's anything like my chip, it will be stable at 3GHz@1.325-1.35v
Where'd you get it, tankguys? If you can hit 3GHz@ stock volts or a bit over I'm picking one up.
I have got batches 0099 and 0368 and between the two the 0368 is much better ;)
I ve reapplied AS5 and retightened the Alphacool waterblock and managed OCCT stable at 1,47VCore at 3 GHZ. Both are 904 series.
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9...30063dz.th.jpg
I was able to boot into XP and play games at 1.41VCore /Oblivion /Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
lower VCore was a nogo.
Here's the opteron i have posted up in the FS section, seems pretty nice, dry ice soon.
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/6...eron9tr.th.jpg
Rosetta is a neat stablity tester.:D
Pretty sweet ballistix too, untweaked.
More results soon, stock air btw.
yea i got it from tankguys. i have a crappy msi k8n diamond plus though. which msi is now claiming it becomes unstable at 320+HTT. so i have trouble testing above that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
i would say that if its 24hr prime stable @ 320HTT @ 1.275v or 1.3v, it would probably hit 3ghz @ 1.35v
usually goes .1v/100mhz on stock volts and above, but below that it really depends.. .05v or less per 100MHz in most cases
I'm gonna pick one up I think, just for something to play with.
Maybe if it's really good I can make another rosetta machine out of my 0608 :cool:
Still going strong...:woot:
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/509/ptest62zd.th.jpg
Though PWMIC is at a toasty 68C.
While looking around forums, the specs of the chip can handle up to 125C.
However, a few people have said anything over 60C isn't good.
For me, the voltages seem pretty stable, and so far no errors in prime 95.
What would be a good way to stick a 80mm fan in that area? I have nothing close in that area where to mount the fan, so unless I superglue it to the mobo tray, I am out of ideas.
I do have some copper heatsinks left over from some DIMMs, would those help at all?
Tie a quiet 120mm to some power cables to cool the ram and pwm.
You've got the best 165 I've seen Repo. What's the highest stable clock you've reached? Is 3200 reachable? Have you tried lowering the ambient temp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
Yey, I just bought a Opteron 165 CCBBE 0610 DPMW.
I don't know the batch number for it, but hopefully I ought to be able to get at least 2.9ghz out of it with an ok voltage, right?
Still whatever happens, it'll kick the one's ass in my sig right now. (CCBWE 0551 UPMW) It won't do 2.7ghz with 1.55v, so...
Can't wait till it comes.
:D
[EDIT] I see you guys are talking about batch numbers. I hadn't heard of this before I came here. Can anyone tell me where I find my batch number on my opteron?
Thanks
Thanks man, appreciate it :) If itzfnb's new 0615 performs like I expect, we could have a new winner on our hands though :p: Though I just bought a 0615, soo.. I just hope it's decent, then I can have 2 awesome crunching machinesQuote:
Originally Posted by thunderstruck!
Unfortunately 3200 is not reachable at the moment. Doesn't seem to scale past 3150.. boo. I think in the winter volts will be able to be lowered at least .05, I had prime going at 3ghz@1.375v for 15 minutes on a cool sunday morning a few weeks ago
More opteron, to tell you the truth I care more about how these ballistix clock.
Anyways, 260x10 @ 1.3v @ stock cooling.
Rosetta stable.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/223...n2608mf.th.jpg
My results on an aircooled 165 CCBBE 0610DPMW with IHS on:
1,33 V (stock) got me to 2,8 GHz, 1,39 V for 2,9 GHz and 1,5 V for 3 GHz
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/148...kjrt4mr.th.jpg http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7...0mhz6yu.th.jpg http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3...0mhz8ae.th.jpg http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/9...0mhz6un.th.jpg
The temps are wrong btw (DFI Expert), so add 10 C on that. Ambient temp is about 25 C. This is chip is actually cooler than my previous 144 and 148. I have to say that I am very satisfied with this chip :)
Hmm...Large FFTs..Quote:
Originally Posted by kavorka
Have you tried Small FFTs or Blend ?
Because those stress more cpu...
well, i return with some dissapointing results... though i fear they are due to my lack of sufficient cooling, and unbelievably horrible motherboard. it took me 1.45v just to boot into windows @ 334x9. failed prime instantly. i still think on a Ultra D or SLi D/DR on water it might hit 3ghz @ 1.375 or less.
We'll see, I have a 0615 coming to be put under a tried and tested ultra-d and water setup :D
You gonna get a new motherboard?
Erm, chiller results this weekend. No more air!:mad:
yea, i'm trying to get the money for an Ultra-D, i'm really tired of the poor performance i'm getting with this msi. trouble is i also need some new ram =\
Nope, Large FFTs stress more for the cpu, since it uses the mem controller. That's why temps are highers with large ffts than small...Quote:
Originally Posted by mascot
Good point...
I guess Blend would be the best test for stability then..
well, i can't get this thing stable above 324x9, which was the same with my 0610DPMW. yet i can go 150MHz higher at 1.25v on this chip. which leads me to believe, that MSI was right when they said it wouldn't be stable over 320HTT. thanks MSI, thanks for producing yet another pile of :banana::banana::banana::banana:.
What voltage for 324x9 :cool:
you want something that can do this?:D
this cpu is more stable on the 8x multi than the 9x mulit. but hits problems above 380htt, so my mobo is cold buged. lol. if its got load, its fine. as soon as it drops, it goes. even core 0 works fine on 8x. maybe i should try and get above 400 htt stable next.
1.45v, exact same as my 0610, i find it hard to believe that it isn't the ram/mobo combo that is throwing everything off
its your mobo. trust me.
i had a neo 2 last year. nothing but problems. couldent even get 2.8ghz stable.
got this nice dfi, and ive had 3.3ghz out of it, and im presently at 2.9ghz stable.
its all in the PCB.
well, i know its my mobo, and i really want to throw it out onto the street maybe let the dogs next door :banana::banana::banana::banana: on it. maybe i'll :banana::banana::banana::banana: on it. bottom line is i need a DFI to do these chips justice. not to mention some ram that wasn't specifically designed for the intel 865/875 chipset
:lol: You do that :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb
you know, taking that odd little validation ncc posted, i tried 375x8, and it seems to be much more stable than 334x9. it doesn't make any sense to me.
zomg! You're absolutely correct! Finally got my board to boot >365 htt (loosen MAL to 9). Right now it's doing 375x9 (3GHz) at 1.375v.. prime's only been going for 2 minutes, but it's a large step up from BSOD loading windows. I'll update with more concrete results..
wtf are you serious? I hate my 0610, it's nothing like all of yours. I reinstalled windows too...I think it might have helped a bit, but there's no way of know for sure yet.
Hmm, even though the benefit may not be too great (running an 8x multi) it certainly behaves different and runs on a bit lower voltage. My best @ 3GHz with 334x9 was 1.425v, 1.375/1.400 would BSOD on boot or freeze very quickly in windows. Now, with 375x8@1.375v, it lasted for 2 minutes in prime, and instead of freezing like it always does @ <1.475v @ unstable speed, core0 failed (at higher voltages when prime actually fails instead of freeze, core1 always craps out).
It would be great if we could get some more people to try, see if it helps out at all
um yea 3Ghz on 1.375 or less lol thats the funniest thing i have heard all dayQuote:
Originally Posted by itznfb
Why's that so unreasonable :lol: Here's mine
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7...z14v3tn.th.jpg
I need to get some water, and just throw it on my processor....lol, just watch the little bugger fry. Those are the most impressive results I've seen to date. Nice, very freakin nice. And lucky. *envy*Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
Well i guess im a fool i had not checked up lately to see how these new chips clock. DANG!!!!! tank guys have ccbbe 0615 EPMW i wonder how those do. anyone using these new chips with sub zero cooling do they bug?Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
I have Opty 170 @2.65 on 1.32v 100% prime stable for over 36 hours on both cores and was still able to decrypt and burn DVD's and play COD2 for hours on end with no hiccups.:toast:
My stepping is CCB1E 0550 VPMW
Which with the MOBO and dual graphics runs a bit warm anyway at idle 46c and under full load of prime on both cores and running games during that hottest I have seen is 55c.... Which I have heard this stepping is known for running warmer. Which MOBO temps are 39-42c...***even at stock settings the temps were still the same as my OCed settings.***:fact:
I'll boot up at 8x350=2800 tomorrow at 1.28Vc and run some prime while I'm in class. See if it's any better than 9x312.Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
I can boot at 265 x 10 @ 1.25v but won't run prime95 on both cores for more than 30 minutes on core0 and 45+minutes on core1. So I found that non-stable I was able to run prime95 12+ hours on both cores at 1.3v but once I started doing other things it would cause prime to fail. At 1.32v I am able to keep prime95 running 36+ hours while doing other high demanding tasks with no errors or anything....Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderstruck!
An 0550VPMW should make with 1,35Vc over 2800Mhz.
And the 3 Gig around 1,4-1,475Vc.
And that´s the average of many 0550VPMWs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus7
Ok a question to reach 2800 or 3000 I currently have my memory at 200mhz 1:1 but raised my FSB to 265 with multi @ 10x to reach the 2800 or 300 do I just need to raise the FSB to that? As I have tried but never stable and sometimes doesn't boot. I did lower my HTT from 5 to 4 for the 265 which I believe should be lowered to 3 with 280 or 300... I have never used a memory divider and not sure what to set it at. I understand that since AMD uses its own memory control on the chip that it really doesn't matter how big of a divider you use. I have tried 166 but that didn't work either. It has been a while since I have tried to get higher than where I am now. So with a bit of help I am ready to try again. Only other concerns I have right now are the temps, they never changed when I OC for stock 2000mhz to 2650mhz which I still consider the stock voltage to be 1.32 although this CPU is rated at stock from 1.3-1.35 on this MOBO it overvolted the CPU off the bat at 1.4375 and I dropped it down to 1.32v on my own which I have booted at 2650mhz at 1.25v but not stable and at 1.3v it would prime95 for hours but couldn't do other programs while dual primes were running and 1.32v would.
Sorry sort of rambled on there but any suggestions or help is welcome...
Kicked my 0610DPMW a bit more...
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4...31005pq.th.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8...10021vn.th.jpg
I don't get it why is says date/time changed... Anyhow taskmanager never lies :p: (maybe synced?)
Setup: (test :p:)
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8525/setup3ax.th.jpg
Lookin' good man!
@CaptainLog, can you please go back the post #1 of this thread, and read this entire thread before you speak again.
@repo this multiplier thing is freakin me out
no kidding.
i thought it was just some sort of freeky thing, but if its happeneing to everyone that tries it, ill def go back to it.
the only thing i can think of is that ill have high htt porblems.
1. i know i'm limited by my motherboard, ram and cooling. thats no question. i know this chip is capable of 3ghz+ on 1.375 or 1.4.
2. with my multiplier at x8 i had no trouble booting at 375HTT. i eventually crashed and failed prime after about 1 minute.
i'll have to think about this when i'm more awake, but right now its just confusing me as to why a NONcpu limitation would be overcome by adjusting the multiplier of the cpu frequency.
It's the full 3rd line in the chip's IHS, behind the stepping. Best 0610 are 1434904C60XXX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burky
That must be an error, you meant 375x8 right? :D Who knows your's an amazing chip, it could get to 3375...Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChkDsk
Thats looking just like my rig with the res leant up outside the case lol.
Nice results, is that the same 0610 that took 1.375v to get 2.8Ghz stable ?
If so i might throw mine back in.
On air maybe, don't know... Not at home right now. But remote desktop tells me prime is running for 4,5hrs now! WOOOOT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious
EDIT: Stopped after 6hr dualprime... 38-39°C load @ 3100MHz. 2800MHz takes only stockV on stockAIR. On water this chip does 2900-2950 stock volts...
i'm glad i paid for 2 day shipping from monarch on monday, i'm really glad it didn't show up on wednesday, and that i finally now got an e-mail confirmation telling me it will be here monday. because 7 day ship time is worth paying for 2 day shipping right?
sorry i'm in a bad mood this morning, and i need to find an Ultra-D
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb
Ouch, that hurts when suppliers/shippers do that, makes me want to kill something, slowly :nono: :slapass:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Repoman
Thats on your 0608MPMW isn't it? What are you running? 1.4v or a little more? 3GHz is pretty good for that voltage. I'm sitting at 1.4v on my 0610DPMW and CPU-Z is reporting 1.360-1.376v. CPU-Z is usually off by around .025-.04v on the DFI boards from what i've seen. The voltages are normally spot on at whatever you actually set them at in the BIOS because of the excellent power regulation on these boards.
Speaking of voltages, I noticed on my 0610 when it is dual priming. In cpu-z the vcore reading jumps up and down. For example when set at 1.376v: it bounces around 1.344~1.360~1.376.Quote:
Originally Posted by burningrave101
Also my cpu frequency bounces, up and down by 1~1.5mhz.
Is this normal? Or instability that may cause problems with my overclocks stability?
Anyone with ideas?
Its normal. Motherboard sensors are never 100% accurate with voltages, and definitely not with temps. Thats why you have to use a DMM to get accurate readings. Manufacturers should use better sensors on the boards so that they were near 100% accurate but they wont cause its more expensive i guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastactor