Sorry mate can you be a little bit more specific? when you say obsolete, what do you exactly mean? obsolete as in there is no need for neither one on the CULV market?Quote:
Originally Posted by flyck
I just find that statement rather vague.
BTW my first post ever in here after 2 years worth of following up on XS... YAY!!!
・Bulldozer(8コア)
125W：3.6GHz
95W：3.4GHz
65W：3GHz
:O wow ....
+ all the Llano numbers are dual core only right ??? or are there some quad cores in the pipeline ????
I read it like he says that the 18w Zacate will be obsolete if there will be a 20W Llano with those specs listed. But, first, these are TDP numbers, Llano might be at 19W max in real world, while Zacate might be closer to ten. We can't know for sure. Besides, I think it's possible that the thermal margins in the calculations are a tad higher for Zacate.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
And then the most important thing, a Zacate 18W will be lots cheaper, probably more like an Atom. While Llano 20W will be more like an ULV-part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendork
It's pure speculation, don't trust it & don't spread it.:(
Quote:
Originally Posted by superrugal
alot is still speculative about everything on the Llano zacate ontario and zambezi parts ...
Quad, die shot was also quadQuote:
Originally Posted by Sn0wm@n
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Boris-
Indeed, zacate is optimized for low power, it can and will shut of more in times of less power needed. average consumption will be alot lower than ULV or llano(if figures are correct, which i don't believe for either of the chips described). But the performance of llano will at least be 18% due to clockspeeds and 100-250% on gpu due to sp and bandwidth. llano will be an improved thuban core while bobcat is slower then an x2 core. So for that area of notebooks, ULV SB and llano might be of more interest due to the performance and the relative small penalty in power for the added speed. Also i'm not sure Zacate was originally planned, it seems to be more an item to fill in a gap in the mobile market and i don't believe AMD will position 2 chips that close to eachother. (unless they could sell such a llano for a huge premium)
Llano is in the mid/high-end notebook area, zacate/ontario is more netbook/cheap notebook area. Two different products, they will not compete with eachother.
That's exactly right, CULV and netbooks do not compete against each other, they're entirely different market segments with different target products, that's why I didn't understand the previous comment of it being near obsolete even before its release. AMD, a multi-billion dollar company with chief designers and marketing executives of that caliber would never make such an atrocious mistake, making such speculations is fine, but one should always remain objective as to what these (cpus/apus) are...
They are products designed to target specific market segments where engineers design in order to create "a product lineup for each segment". I am not sure if even shareholders would be happy to be briefed that they're investing in colluding obsoleting products.
let me rephrase.llano/SB ULV which will be alot faster than Zacate while boasting a similar max tdp. So all zacate has is a lower price and better battery time in low load situations. (although the difference will not be that significant). If they can sell for each low end notebook a low priced low cost Zacate or a llano (higher cost) but huge profits (same range as ULV intels) they would be crazy to keep Zacate in that sector and loose llano sails (with higher profits). 18W on netbook is rather high, it is ontario that is mainly focussed on netbook and zacate on low power notebook to fill their current gap. Although i would expect that if llano is introduced for the low end they will start lowering the pwr requirements of zacate to scale them down to the upper end of netbook or really low power notebooks. (they just have to keep sure intel does not have lower cost chips for possible ulv notebook marketQuote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
Zacate is shown at 18W and the lowest Llano at 20W, but probably zacate will be 60-65% of the power needed by the Llano part, in real life, just because it was designed from ground up, different power management than the upgraded THuban core and better power gating.
So, in an application like Intel burn test, they may be close, because the Zacate cannot use it's improvements in power management/gating, but in real world usage, the difference will be consistent.
+1 for those comparing the 20W Llano to 18W Zacate
just cause max power is similar, does not mean average power will be anywhere near the same, although to be honest, i think alot of people would rather have the extra power at a hour or two of battery loss.
also keep in mind that Llano is 32nm and that is making a huge difference.
i really want to see some turbo details, fusion is looking o so sick.
So many people confuse power draw and heat production specifications.
You must realise that if cpu draws 40W of electrical power, 99,9% of it is output as heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stukov
First, the Llano specs seen in this thread are pure speculation. But let's pretend they are real. Then you still have different TDP ranges. And I'm sure that a Llano part at 2.6GHz will be a lot "hotter" than a 1.6GHz Zacate. You have much larger cores originating from chips developed with servers in mind against a very small chip made to be extremely efficient in perf/w. Even if Llano is power optimized it simply can't be cooler than Zacate.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyck
Even if there were a Llano at 20W TDP, it's still just TDP. Chips made at the same TDP can have significant differences in power consumption. The TDP-ranges are simply not in a resolution high enough for such comparisons.
In an poor attempt to explain let's pull some numbers out of my arse here.
18W TDP Zacate could mean 10W theoretical max, 7W real world max, 3w typical and 1w idle. A 20W Llano could mean 20W theoretical max, 15w real world max, 11w typical and 8w idle.
These numbers are of course pure fantasy, but my point is that TDP-ranges could mislead, one watt in theoretical max is enough to be put in a range with twice as high TDP number. And TDP don't show how efficient energy saving there is. A Zacate will probably have much better idle and low usage powers than Llano due to the very different bases for their design.
And then again, even if a normal Llano at 45-65w probably could be reasonably priced around 150-200usd for notebooks, a 20w ULV would be rare and thus priced a lot higher. At the same time Zacate and Ontario will be so cheap to produce that AMDs people could wipe their behinds with them if they had skin thick enough.
So, even IF a 2.6GHz Llano with 20W TDP existed. It would be much more expensive since the chips good enough would be rare, and it would probably use a considerable amount more power than a Zacate in real world, especially in idle and normal use.
And now your are counting low, probably more than that is heat, and the minuscule amount that isn't, is radiation that pretty soon will be heat anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanical Man
How are you so sure about Intel releasing Sandybridge low tdp product of about 18W to cannibalize Atom sales , could you provide links to your source of info.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyck
Indeed, almost every single millijoule of electrical power consumed by a circuit will turn into heat. Though, internal physical wear and tear of the interconnects will eat a very small portition of this. But in laymans terms, the machine will heat the room with about the exact same amount of energy as it consumes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stukov
In netbooks the Wifi controller alone can consume around 2-3 W, kb+touchpad+sound+usb+ethernet+... 5-10 W, too many W for the display, etc..
OEMs care if the CPU consumes 2500 mW or 4600 mW? Hell no. They care if they can get the platform power consumption down and get it cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Boris-
Just for the record... if you read my posts you would know that i allready said all that... I always mentioned if it were true (and i don't believe that) and that tdp is the same but zacate will have the advantage at lower loads.
@ other: 18W ULV cores exist now and will exist again with SB. Atom is nowhere near the 18W picture it isn't even in the same tdp range as ULV cores. Zacate will have stiff competition from much better performing parts who cosume only a tad more(yes cpu only the difference is big, but with everything else connected the difference is still the same but the overal powerdraw is bigger. so in % it is only a tad). (again referring to the 5times i allready mentionned if those figures would be correct and i don't believe it). This would imply that either you go performance llano/ULV or power zacate. These are 2 products relativly close to eachother where the lowest has the least margin. So if you are lucky and take a huge share of ulv the cpu is worthwile, but llano for that tdp will not as it will have almost no marketshare left (shares with ULV). If most people choose for performance in that sector the reverse is true. llano with huge margins will compete better and zacate will only supply the very few. which makes it a really nice market. Hence, i only expect Zacate to be released for this part of the market atm (while it still open due to bad graphics from intel) and will be downsized from then on (or boosted more to replace the ulv of AMD). Ontario will be the main focus of the platform and the prophet.
but since we don't even know the specs of Zacate, let alone llano which is sheduled alot later. Things will flow as they flow. I just believe Ontario (the very low power) part of the platform will know more success than Zacate which was demonstrated. Just hope that ontario isn't to much slower than Zacate.
You didn't say that. You said that differences in power usage "will not be that significant." I say you can't know that, similar TDPs can still mean very different power usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyck
Besides, a 20W Llano at 2.6GHz would be very rare, It would be expensive for a reason, that reason is supply. AMD won't have any trouble at all selling such a chip with high margins even with Zacate. The performance difference is quite big, there would be enough people willing to pay for those few chips capable of such low power at that speed.
Chips easy to produce are seldom expensive.
..demand and supply curves, and that my friend Boris is Fact...:):):) , so thank you for adding some sense back onto the thread.
I really find amusing how people post just for the sake of posting.:horse:, without knowing facts or even have knowledge of basic economic practices
supply and demand curves are nothing more than an abstract concept that attempts to explain an observed behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroikenshi
They don't actually exist in nature.
What you are discussing is human approximations to future demand and attempting to calculate the optimal price; from which to collect the maximum amount of market share and profit.
Ideally to have excess funds with which to protect against an economic down turn.
Beyond that, any excess funds and/or profit is wasted; since it could be used to improve the business, products, or customer/employee loyalty.
Current i5/7 series and next gen Q2 SB will have indeed a cpu power advantage... thx to the turbo and HT. But the whole range is always compared as if it is faster, don't forget how much downclock is required to get this as a culv. But perhaps look at the price point, for i5-i7 cpu you will almost buy a whole ontario netbook :)Quote:
Originally Posted by flyck
The full list of culv chips listed on anandtech
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3737/i...d-reduces-size
that celeron-pentium and even i3 will have a very hard time against zacate, only i3 could have some multithread benefit, gpu wise they are all less even i5/7. It is already known that Intel will bring a special SB version (single core/ HT?) to counter this level.
Well you're absolutely right there, no point on arguing it, are you an economist?Quote:
Originally Posted by nn_step
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by duploxxx
Zacate is very interesting and i do think that i3 330UM will be quite a challenge for the Zacate. The U5400 vs Zacate will be interesting indeed the cache may also have have a impact of performance.
Now the U3400 is rated wrongly on AT its not 1.2Ghz its 1.0Ghz "Same freq as Ontario" U3400 does not seem to be much of a match for Zacate 1.6Ghz because it has 60% more freq.
So best comparison is U5400 vs Zacate and I3 330UM vs Zacate also all of them have their GPU's "max" at 500 MHz so gpu wise they maybe a bit on the lower side.
EDIT: Zacate is suppose to cost around $500 we have the followings laptops with CULV's and their prices:-
Acer Aspire One 753 U3400 - $449
TOSHIBA Satellite T235-S1350 U5400 - $599
Acer Aspire 1830Z-U514G50n U5400 - $549
Acer 1830T i3 Acer 1830T - $599