Post Rad Chiller Concept

Okey guys, you know i bought some time off martin to run his mill. He has so far designed this for me for my post rad chiller concept.

Im thinking it will work, but i could use some advice from people who are more experienced with this stuff.

This unit will have its own loop. Cold side will be connected to main loop after radiator and before the cpu. Hot side will be on its own loop with a dedicated PA160.

I was thinking intially 3x62W [1 meanwell S320 should handle this] TEC's. However martain can stretch the area wide enough to take 437W tec's if i ask him to.

Heres our wonderful martin's creation:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7671/naekuh7re1.jpg

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7743/naekuh8mj3.jpg

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3729/naekuh9cd3.jpg

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/216/naekuh10wx7.jpg[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]



So lets hear it. How would i make this better without causing him too much work or is it ready to go?

I just think you need more powerful TECs

Im trynig something similar but with two 226w TECs cooled by apogee GTs and I havent decided what the cold side will be using. maybe fuzions since I have a few extra

I'm pretty rough on the watts and thermal side of things.

But if I figured this out right, it takes about 395watts of heat energy to change a 1.5 GPM flow rate by only 1 degree celcius.

I could be wrong, but this is what I used:

1.5gallons per minute.

1.5 gallons = 5,678 milliliters = 5,678 grams

Divide by 60 for one second

= 94.6grams water / second

q=(specific heat of H20)X(grams of H20) x dT
=(4.18 J/g-K)x(94.6 grams H20)x(1K)
=395 Joules

A Joule is a watt-sec and we were measuring for one second, so that 395 watts.

And that's assuming 100% efficiency.

Probably need to go with the bigger TECs?

That seems like alot of TEC to change the water temperature though...Maybe I figured something wrong..?

Yeah I think that's wrong, I'll go digging some more...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I'm pretty rough on the watts and thermal side of things.

But if I figured this out right, it takes about 395watts of heat energy to change a 1.5 GPM flow rate by only 1 degree celcius.

I could be wrong, but this is what I used:

1.5gallons per minute.

1.5 gallons = 5,678 milliliters = 5,678 grams

Divide by 60 for one second

= 94.6grams water / second

q=(specific heat of H20)X(grams of H20) x dT
=(4.18 J/g-K)x(94.6 grams H20)x(1K)
=395 Joules

A Joule is a watt-sec and we were measuring for one second, so that 395 watts.

And that's assuming 100% efficiency.

Probably need to go with the bigger TECs?

That seems like alot of TEC to change the water temperature though...Maybe I figured something wrong..?

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Oh god, SHUT UP! :rofl:

I just took a test on q=MCdT in chem yesterday. It's 2AM saturday morning, I'm not supposed to be reading this!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickS

Oh god, SHUT UP! :rofl:

I just took a test on q=MCdT in chem yesterday. It's 2AM saturday morning, I'm not supposed to be reading this!!!

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Well you're all fresh on this, I've been out of school for WAY too long..getting old and crusty...:D

I did find what you just said though on this french radiator review article:

Quote:

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Q = Mx Cp x dT (Equation 1)

Q = power dissipated by the radiator in W (calculate)
M = mass flow of water kg / s (measured)
Cp = heat capacity of water J / kg K, it is 4186 J / kg K here (known)
DT = temperature difference between the entrance and exit of the radiator for Water in K (1 K = 1 ° C) (measured)

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So at 1.5GPM, you need 395 watts to change the temperature 1 degree...that's ALOT!:(

But I'm sure once you've exceed the heat dissipated by the parts getting cooled it would continue to cool down until it reached the ambient then it would start stabilizing by the cold loop radiator?

Yeah but 395 joules doesn't equal 395w. 395 joules is 0.109722222 watt-hour. Whatever that means, I'm not sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickS

Yeah but 395 joules doesn't equal 395w. 395 joules is 0.109722222 watt-hour. Whatever that means, I'm not sure.

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I might be messing that up.

I assumed that since I figured out how much water flowed per second that seconds would cancel out. Maybe I'm missing something

.10972222 watt-hour = 395 watt-seconds

Would it mean 395 watts?

It's getting late...:confused:

Hm, maybe..

I like the idea, and the design.

But I'd go with beefier tecs. I'd rather have something capable of going much colder and back it down a bit, than have something that's too weak.

For what you're spending though, you could have a pretty sweet phase chiller... could have martin design a nice heat exchanger or something.

This is by far the most thought out attempt at a TEC chiller I've seen, and although I'm hesitant to attempt it myself because of the cost/complexity/performance.. I'm eager to see some knowledgable people give it a go.

It's sad, but I woke up this morning thinking about this and realized I'm wrong in how I was thinking about this.

While it does take 395 watts to change a 1.5 gpm water delta 1 degree, that's assuming there is no radiator at work. As if you had nothing in the system pumping water at 1.5gpm that was automatically getting reheated the exact same amount it's getting cooled, that's not what we have here.

To figure out the result, you'd have to figure out the heat being dumped in and the radiator in use.

If the heat going in from blocks and pumps is say 200 watts, and without the chiller the water to ambient temperature was 8 degrees. Even only removing 100 watts of that with a chiller should be good for almost a 4 degree improvement.

So if you only had 200 watts dumping in and used 395 watts for removal, you'd be below ambient with your coolant temperature and over 8 degrees cooler, not 1 degree.

A chiller with a radiator like this should be an easy way to get coolant temperatures down to ambient and a little lower. Since it's going to be hard to get below that because of the radiator, it would be an easy and safe way to avoid any of the typical TEC problems with condensation:up: The 395 watts per degree doesn't really apply unless you matched that heat going in...eventually below ambient, the radiator would match that when it reached an equillibrium. The radiator inline on the coolant side will slowly start working against the effort as you dip below ambient. You could also figure that out just like radiator cooling. If you had an excess of 200watts going into the chiller than being dumped. a PA120.2 would dump that amount back in once you got down to about 10C below ambient.

You should see improvements in temperature even with smaller TECs where the radiator is still helping.
That's why my numbers weren't clicking for me, I wasn't thinking about the radiator.

But one example would be like this
250 watts in
PA 120.2 with nexus fans at 12V
This is probably off a little because of the curves used(based on 10C delta), but the normal water delta would be 12C without the chiller

If you put 3 62watt TEC in line, assuming 80% efficiency, you'd remove about 150 watts of heat.
In the end your net heat in is only about 100 watts, which would give you coolant temps that are only about 5C higher than ambient (7 degree improvement)

And that's all under full load, on idle you'd probably have less than the 150 watts being removed by the TECs, so you'd probably have coolant temps near or lower than ambient.

I think it's a neat idea, and a low risk/maintenance one too. No condensation to worry about because you'll never get block temps below the dew point, yet it will do a really nice job of getting coolant temps near or to ambient. You'd basically have all the same conveniences and easy installation of a regular water cooling setup, but along with an extra bump in TEC performance.

I'm changing my mind, I'd probably start with smaller TEC's, if you go too big, you'll probably get way down below ambient and may get into dew point/condensation territory.

I love he idea, i need to think about it for a few but it's going in the right direction, i have been building a fantastic tec TORTURE rack but i have been trying to figure out how to use more tec;s to cool a resi or something similar to this. keep up the good work, i think with the right temp reduction vs energy used is the formula that makes it turn into a real system.

I have been looking and they have been making much beefier TEC's so the combo should have a sweet spot somewhere.

I have just about all the parts for my rig except for the DD Torture Rack, which should get here in 2 weeks, i hope this is farther along, i could i find some space for it,

Once again I have to say, Martin, your presence here and with the other minds throwing good idea;s around. this is Nirvana.. I got no desire to use LN2 so my only Extreme Chance is a Mother of a TEC rig.... and it's designed, 90% parts in and should be operational in about 3 weeks.

I can't get there fast enough, I also have to read more on TEC usage to make sure my vision can expand and Rock the Chip word....... lovin it......

Keep up the great work people!


Man i would love to have some of the tools you have, but then i would have to rush retirement and that just isn't an option :woot:

Been wanting to get something milled though, got autocad's exactly like that.
What your going to want instead is 8 or so 80w tec's. That way you have a possibly of 640w or so and can tune that down. Wire each pair in series, and get a 18V 600W.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

Been wanting to get something milled though, got autocad's exactly like that.
What your going to want instead is 8 or so 80w tec's. That way you have a possibly of 640w or so and can tune that down. Wire each pair in series, and get a 18V 600W.

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WOW...

thanks for all the replys and i thank martin for his effort as well.

I really want this to be a fun project for us. Martin is getting a shipment from me next week with a PA160, DDC-3.2, Meanwell S12-320 [hence why my TEC's are limited] EK-Xres.

Thats the cooling setup on the loop. I really liked this idea because if my TEC's ever fell, the Radiator i have would be my safety net. That loop can always be ignored and pretended to be a gpuless block.

Man.... but nol if you think i need 8 TEC's total on this unit... its going to be massive. im not looking at replacing the radiator like the coolit product. i just want a bump in performance without frying my breaker. I think serialkiller was correct in having more tecs downvolted.

Also if the water froze, that would present a very big problem to me. [Martin, dont worry about budget to get this done correctly. if needbe, i can dish another payment of = amount to get it done correctly.]

[have a feeling at this point nol will shake his head going you should of phased] But i think this will be more fun!


Man.... looks like i might get a dualy and side mount the meanwells on the other mobo try. Hopefully i can get this setup all done by my next birthday in May.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

[Martin, dont worry about budget to get this done correctly. if needbe, i can dish another payment of = amount to get it done correctly.]

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No problem, this little project of yours has my 100% attention, I might have to try something very similar.

In fact, I just bought a 158 watt pelt off ebay to play around with, I like this chiller idea:up:

Keep me posted on when you're ready with a design to start milling. I already have the copper for 4" base, I just might need to order another wide piece of Delrin if you want a wider top. We could also go with a brass top if you wanted.

Also, I was curious,

What TECs are bigger than 62mm? Seems like most are 50mm, and 62 is the biggest.

The above concept was with three 62mm square TECs.

The biggest TEC I could find was this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gigantic-62mm-54...QQcmdZViewItem
?

@Nick: your shut up comment really made me laugh...

@martin:
seems like a very nice idea although i cant tell if more powerful Tecs will be better or not..gues I had to think a bit and I am way too lazy :D

have not seen any bigger than 62 also.. IIRC those 545 watter tec had something that did not make em attractive ( cant say what it was :S but was said here :) )

@ martin thanks for helping out on this project! The 62mm tec is the biggest size you will find that can be of any good to us. There are much bigger ones but they are also lower wattage. IMO I would make the hole thing to fit and cool 62mm tecs even if Naekuh only wants to use 50mm ones.

@NaeKuh it is great to finaly see you guys starting this project. like I told you before I think if you guys can make the fins inside a little higher to get better heat to water transfere.

I am not too sure I agree with nol on that statement. I think the 62w tecs will work ok but I would consider going with 80w tecs. or even bigger and under volt them.

Sure the 62's will work okay, thats very true, tuned down in wattage and used again in large quantities will be even better then the 80's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

Sure the 62's will work okay, thats very true, tuned down in wattage and used again in large quantities will be even better then the 80's.

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so nol, what combo should i use then? 80x3 = 240W draw, which means i should be safe on a 320W.

the next higher tec i can think of is 120W ? having 3 of those would overshoot my meamwell no?

Hi Guys, I’m very new to this forum and several other similar forums. I joined to get info on a project I’m planning to start designing in a few weeks time, and have read tons of comments on different ways to cool systems. This is an area I need to pin down because it would have a direct impact on the design of my project.

Just about everything I’ve read about Tec’s, state that they are a bad idea for 24/7 cooling, however I wasn't ready to give them up so set about trying to design a Tec system that didn’t double your electric bill, create condensation or killed the Tec by use of on/off power switching to control temperature.

Your design is one of many that I have sketched as a possible method, and will probably sketch many more, and for that reason I’ve been looking at how to accurately control the temperature of Tec’s.

The most efficient method I have found is to use PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) temperature controllers. I have viewed several PWM controllers, but found none that had all the circuitry I required, due to the designs being more suited to industrial use for lasers, ovens etc.

PWM is also an efficient way to control the speed of cooling fans.

You can see/learn more about Tec’s (faq's) and PWM (#9 on site page) of the following link
http://www.tetech.com/techinfo/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Also, I was curious,

What TECs are bigger than 62mm? Seems like most are 50mm, and 62 is the biggest.

The above concept was with three 62mm square TECs.

The biggest TEC I could find was this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gigantic-62mm-54...QQcmdZViewItem
?

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That one and this one are about the largest easily available to computer enthusiasts:

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/24...tl=g30c105s187

There's been a big discussion on Thermal Enterprises TEC's and how they're wattage is based on draw and not cooling power. Though, the one you linked runs 0-16 volts which makes it easier to tune for some (ie. me ;) I have a 12 volt 600 watt Meanwell so this find really intrigues me.......thanks for this :up: )

The only larger ones I know of are in lab equipment (ie. laser coolers). They're hard to find. If you find a place that has them readily available and relatively cheap, you'd be the TEC forum's new best friend :yepp:

Take it your having 2 of these made to sandwich between the tecs?

Make sure you get it done up very right along each part of the tec, maybe 4 mounts per tech.

Making the trasfer from the copper block to the path of the water is what will help, Mart knows this well so ya need to sort that i think.

437w tecs x 3 will be the best thing you can do i think. It'd cool more.

However you'd need more than a PA160 too cool the hot side!

It's going to eat lots of power too sadly

For reference, you might want to look at Swiftech's older TEC chiller, the MCW-Chill 452:

http://www.procooling.com/index.php?...s&disp=84&pg=1

It was, pretty much, just two MCW5002's sandwiched over a couple of MCW5000 plates. However, it was fairly successful for the time. I think if the TEC's were tuned, it might be worth it.

It's an interesting concept either way :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

Been wanting to get something milled though, got autocad's exactly like that.
What your going to want instead is 8 or so 80w tec's. That way you have a possibly of 640w or so and can tune that down. Wire each pair in series, and get a 18V 600W.

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Why in series? There is going to be a voltage drop across them so its going to be hard to keep them at the same voltage. I vote parallel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pete

Take it your having 2 of these made to sandwich between the tecs?

Make sure you get it done up very right along each part of the tec, maybe 4 mounts per tech.

Making the trasfer from the copper block to the path of the water is what will help, Mart knows this well so ya need to sort that i think.

437w tecs x 3 will be the best thing you can do i think. It'd cool more.

However you'd need more than a PA160 too cool the hot side!

It's going to eat lots of power too sadly

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rofl pete!

@ that voltage and those tec's my case would be an AC! thanks to the radiator.

you want lots of low wattage peltiers, this spreads the load out and improves efficiency (As much as one can using a pelt any way) All so to keep Amperage reasonable wire them in such a way as to use 120V, and do a direct rectifier circuit so you don't have to mess around with low voltage high amperage ( this will net you a tad bit of efficiency as one less conversion loss ), Low wattage pelts should be cheaper too so make it with two hot sides with all the cold sides on your chiller block, that will all so give capacity control as you simply switch on the second bank if you need more cooling!

Pick up 2 snap disk thermostat set for 60C or 70C=off for both the hot side of the peltiers and the rectifier, this will give you some safety preferably manual reset and of course a fuse. All ways keep in mind with pelts ther is all ways a risk of thermal runaway and can resualt in a fire! All so make sure all wires you use have an insulation rating of or better then 90C

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

rofl pete!

@ that voltage and those tec's my case would be an AC! thanks to the radiator.

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Pelts are no where near that efficent, be more like an excellent blast furnace on the other side, which of course then the cold side starts warming, rins and repeat!

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Originally Posted by Xeon th MG Pony

Pelts are no where near that efficent, be more like an excellent blast furnace on the other side, which of course then the cold side starts warming, rins and repeat!

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True... lol... the hotside wouldnt have enough cooling. But if it did...


Anyhow... i gave martin to okey to start. Unless someone has last min changes he should do on the design, i think its set.

Im going to go with 3 x 80W TEC's. nicely downvolted i hope to pull around 50W each for a total of 150W off my cpu loop. That would hopefully then mean my entire cpu loop system is only drawing ~80W of heat.

mmmm might be major overkill to keep my PA120.3 on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

True... lol... the hotside wouldnt have enough cooling. But if it did...


Anyhow... i gave martin to okey to start. Unless someone has last min changes he should do on the design, i think its set.

Im going to go with 3 x 80W TEC's. nicely downvolted i hope to pull around 50W each for a total of 150W off my cpu loop. That would hopefully then mean my entire cpu loop system is only drawing ~80W of heat.

mmmm might be major overkill to keep my PA120.3 on that.

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serve yourself a solar panel and ask the guys round here if your cooling system is efficient ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

True... lol... the hotside wouldnt have enough cooling. But if it did...


Anyhow... i gave martin to okey to start. Unless someone has last min changes he should do on the design, i think its set.

Im going to go with 3 x 80W TEC's. nicely downvolted i hope to pull around 50W each for a total of 150W off my cpu loop. That would hopefully then mean my entire cpu loop system is only drawing ~80W of heat.

mmmm might be major overkill to keep my PA120.3 on that.

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what changes if any have you decided to do on the block?
Is martin going to make the block big enough to take a 62mm tec if you ever decide that you want one on there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleowl

what changes if any have you decided to do on the block?
Is martin going to make the block big enough to take a 62mm tec if you ever decide that you want one on there?

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Yeah, the block will be big enough to take on 3 x 62mm TECs, so it'll be flexible for later changes if needed:up:

Looks awesome so far, I only have a couple questions about the design:

How thick is the base between the pelts and water (both sides)? IIRC, 3/8" is about optimal for a plain copper plate, so maybe have a thicker base for the cold side and obviously thinner on the hot side.

That brings me to my next question, the height/thickness/overall contact of the fins. The current design looks really free flowing, but I don't see enough of the cold dispersing through the loop. Machining and materials cost are a concern, but you might want to (somewhat) follow Swiftech's GTX and especially MCW6500 designs and reduce the height past the inlet/outlet, or angle the inlet down. Just a thought there from someone who's taken approximately 0% of the thermal/fluid dynamics classes you have.

And just to clarify for some other people, the purpose of this isn't to get subzero (even subambient) temps (at load at least :D) but to effectively cut away some of the heat load on the actual CPU loop. Like Naekuh said, if he has 240 watts of heat, 180 watts of (theoretical) cooling from pelts would give him a CPU loop that only needs to dissipate 60 watts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Yeah, the block will be big enough to take on 3 x 62mm TECs, so it'll be flexible for later changes if needed:up:

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hey martin will you make the fins inside a little bit taller so the will get more contact to the water. I think that will help with heat transfer for the bigger wattage tecs. What do you think?

stupid question : I read carefully the 1st post and after some days I realized that obviously you should do a sandwich thing right??

sandwich: 2x devices made by martin :
1) to cope with the hot side
2) to get the cold that they deliver and to be able to get it into the loop.

In case of making it very long ( martin s device) : shouldn't it work in a bad way as the last tecs would be having water that had been already heated by the tecs before them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duh

stupid question : I read carefully the 1st post and after some days I realized that obviously you should do a sandwich thing right??

sandwich: 2x devices made by martin :
1) to cope with the hot side
2) to get the cold that they deliver and to be able to get it into the loop.

In case of making it very long ( martin s device) : shouldn't it work in a bad way as the last tecs would be having water that had been already heated by the tecs before them?

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that is no different the people using a maze 4-1 for tec cooling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duh

stupid question : I read carefully the 1st post and after some days I realized that obviously you should do a sandwich thing right??

sandwich: 2x devices made by martin :
1) to cope with the hot side
2) to get the cold that they deliver and to be able to get it into the loop.

In case of making it very long ( martin s device) : shouldn't it work in a bad way as the last tecs would be having water that had been already heated by the tecs before them?

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martin is building 2 blocks for me.

And they are getting sandwitched. The hotside will have a PA160 DDC-3.2 EK-Xres

The cold side will connect to my main cpu loop with a RD-30, PA120.3, EK Supreme, MCW30, Martin's heat exchanger, EK 250 res.

Quote:

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In case of making it very long ( martin s device) : shouldn't it work in a bad way as the last tecs would be having water that had been already heated by the tecs before them?

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I forgot to refer this was to be considered to the hot side of HX ( heat exchanger)..

looks promising.. when will you have it done??

J

Hi, I have been thinking of the same thing for a while, but since i don't have equipment, i have been looking for some kind of equipment to mod to do kinda the same thing.

With that said, wouldn't it be more efficient to run some kind of dual pass over the cold side of the loop, like a radiator flows and have as much "cooling water time" on the TEC's cold side as possible, why just run the water down the shoot once, loop it back and have both the input and output on one side, again just like a radiator. I think you will add a little more flow resistance to the loop but the gain from using the TEC's cooling more efficiently by giving the water more cold face time would be much more beneficial.

BUT on the hot side keep it just the way it is to keep the heat flowing off the techs as fast as possible.

Does this make any sense?

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That would be the way I would design it. I would also look into a triple pass also, especially since it's just going to be on a single CPU loop and have a good pump or 2 to keep it moving....

Well that is my :2cents:

PS, Martin I would be using the 62mm TEC's and be looking for the most cooling I could get. This is not for 24/7but for some fun benching, the techs will be run by some Variable Power Supplies so Voltage and Amps are not a concern.

How could I get some of your time to get one of these too :up:

I will shoot you a PM....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by systemviper

Hi, I have been thinking of the same thing for a while, but since i don't have equipment, i have been looking for some kind of equipment to mod to do kinda the same thing.

With that said, wouldn't it be more efficient to run some kind of dual pass over the cold side of the loop, like a radiator flows and have as much "cooling water time" on the TEC's cold side as possible, why just run the water down the shoot once, loop it back and have both the input and output on one side, again just like a radiator. I think you will add a little more flow resistance to the loop but the gain from using the TEC's cooling more efficiently by giving the water more cold face time would be much more beneficial.

BUT on the hot side keep it just the way it is to keep the heat flowing off the techs as fast as possible.

Does this make any sense?

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That would be the way I would design it. I would also look into a triple pass also, especially since it's just going to be on a single CPU loop and have a good pump or 2 to keep it moving....

Well that is my :2cents:

PS, Martin I would be using the 62mm TEC's and be looking for the most cooling I could get. This is not for 24/7but for some fun benching, the techs will be run by some Variable Power Supplies so Voltage and Amps are not a concern.

How could I get some of your time to get one of these too :up:

I will shoot you a PM....

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I like your ideas but such as my ideas they lack of scientific backup. would be nice to do some floworks reproduction of it :).

anxious to see how this turns out

Quote:

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With that said, wouldn't it be more efficient to run some kind of dual pass over the cold side of the loop, like a radiator flows and have as much "cooling water time" on the TEC's cold side as possible, why just run the water down the shoot once, loop it back and have both the input and output on one side, again just like a radiator. I think you will add a little more flow resistance to the loop but the gain from using the TEC's cooling more efficiently by giving the water more cold face time would be much more beneficial.

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not really. the water will only pick up so much heat. so if you do a double pass or even more you will just carry all the heat from one pelt to the other pelt. if you look at the maze4-1 from danger den you will see the same thing in a way. but only for 1 tec. The reason the maze was never a very good tec block was because one side of the tec got cool while the other side stayed hot. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleowl

not really. the water will only pick up so much heat. so if you do a double pass or even more you will just carry all the heat from one pelt to the other pelt. if you look at the maze4-1 from danger den you will see the same thing in a way. but only for 1 tec. The reason the maze was never a very good tec block was because one side of the tec got cool while the other side stayed hot. :(

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I'm not sure what you mean, I would have a separate heat dissipation loop with say 3 - maze 4's, 1 on the back of each of the 3 pelts running to a seperate loop of a 120.3's or 2.....to remove the heat with out impacting the cooling of the water in the "Martin rig" so the water is only coming in contact with the cooling side of the pelt and making the second pass just gaining more cooling as it moves thru the martin rig. My objective is to get the water as cooled as possible....

the cold side is going to be connected to an RD-30, PA120.3, EK Supreme, MCW30.

The hotside will be a very small loop with only a EK-XRES PA160 and a DDC3.2

I highly doubt i'll be lacking in the flow department for either side of the loop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

the cold side is going to be connected to an RD-30, PA120.3, EK Supreme, MCW30.

The hotside will be a very small loop with only a EK-XRES PA160 and a DDC3.2

I highly doubt i'll be lacking in the flow department for either side of the loop.

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Yea, sorry to be a little off topic, i was thinking of making it better for my use with a dual pass cooling loop, and not for your system.

Sorry for the hijack, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by systemviper

I'm not sure what you mean, I would have a separate heat dissipation loop with say 3 - maze 4's, 1 on the back of each of the 3 pelts running to a seperate loop of a 120.3's or 2.....to remove the heat with out impacting the cooling of the water in the "Martin rig" so the water is only coming in contact with the cooling side of the pelt and making the second pass just gaining more cooling as it moves thru the martin rig. My objective is to get the water as cooled as possible....

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that is fine on the cold side but what about the hot side? the hot side has to be cooled and that is what I was talking about. he may gain some if he did multi pass on the cold side loop idk that he would gain enough for the extra time involved

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleowl

that is fine on the cold side but what about the hot side? the hot side has to be cooled and that is what I was talking about. he may gain some if he did multi pass on the cold side loop idk that he would gain enough for the extra time involved

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Yea, but I was more referring to MY idea and not thinking about his needs,

For my needs i would mount a maze4 on the back of each pelt (hot side) in a separate loop and solve the heat issue so the cooling would be sweet on the dual pass (cold side), i would even think of going triple or quad pass myself, just to keep the water on the cold side of the pelts as long as possible, then run it straight into the cpu petl block, but we have 2 different objectives, he is looking to drop his temps by a bit and run 24/7; I am looking to get my CPU as low as she can go for benching numbers....

Again sorry for being off topic...

FYI
Fabrication is in progress, this must be the biggest workpiece I've milled yet...:D

RAW Materials...
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7324/ntc1cq7.jpg


Lathe put away, and chips are flying on the mill...:D
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2977/ntc2yb5.jpg

I'll keep taking photos of the progress and post them here for fun..:)

I'll try to answer a few questions:

The base is being constructed from 1/4" copper. I think one thing that is being confused here regarding thickness is a cold plate vs a CPU block design. You NEED thickness when you're trying to transfer heat being collected from one area to another. Because this block has full channel coverage, extra thickness is not necessary and will only act as more of an insulator than anything. I'm purposfully leaving the pin hieght .100" to allow a very small amount of water to pass over the top of the pins as well. Overall a simple channel design like this will approximately double the heat transfer area. This will leave about .150 thickness for the base. I think a combination of .150 base thickness and the .750 delrin should provide an adequate amount of bending resistance to sandwich the TEC. The block will be big enough for either 4x 40mm TECs or 3X 62mm TECs.

Naekuh and I discussed keeping the fin design simple, so they are going to be 1/8" channels wide, this will also minimize the pressure drop in the actual chilled CPU loop, so you are not taking a big hit there. It could very well be a pin matrix design, but youre all aware of the pressure drop of a standard Apogee GTX, the distance from barb to barb is only about 1.5 inches or so, imagine the pressure drop having 5X that length. I think you need to be careful about pressure drop on something this big especially on the cold side were you still need good flow rates to keep the CPU block cool. Also milling diamond pins is extraordinarily time consuming, I've spent as much as 4 hours milling a small diamond pin matrix for a CPU block. I'm not a CNC machine...:D

Excellent work guys, i think since it's not going directly on the cpu and has plenty of transfer area, especially at the thickness you are talking about, a diamond cut barb pattern would be overkill anyway. This is an exciting project and i am looking forward to seeing the finished project!

Small update:
Base shapes all milled, working on the milling down the perimeter of the first block. That's alot of copper!

I'm sure glad I finally got some good spring collets, it's amazing how much faster you can cut with a solid collet.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2104/ntc3ii8.jpg

Back to it...

Looking great martin. Naekuh and I have also talked about the design of the channel. That is why I was saying I think same channel but on the hot side plate maybe make the fins a little higher. I do agree you want to watch the resistance. But also if you look at most of the water blocks the pins/rows always go clear up to touch the top. I don't feel that we want that but I think the water may get in the slots and not really slosh out much if there is too much water flow. I think on this design we need to have the fins up high enough the water at least hits them instead of flowing right over them. Tec makes a bunch of heat and you don't want to let any heat sit. I know you know all of this.


It is looking great!!!

Im mega impressed lads! I'd love one (well 2) and use 3 437w tecs all at there full voltages etc etc and see how cold i can get the water to go! Just for fun

Oh boy, im impressed so far

I see loads of threads with cool ideas but this is one of the first where people follow through

I am eagerly awaiting more pictures and some results :D

Whew, channel cutting under way now...

My commercial slotting saw arbor just wasn't going to work, so I had to machine a new one out for 7/8 brass bar I had handy. I should have done this a LONG time ago, sooo much more solid now and runout on the sawblade is almost non-existent.

I'm also my own worst enemy..:rofl:

I just wasn't happy with the layout on the 1/8" channels, I ended up going with a 1/16" slotting saw and tighter spacing so you more or less end up with 1/32" thickness fins and 1/16" channels. This should do much better thermally and flow good as well. Unfortunately this little change will make channel cutting take about 3x as long:eek:

It also took some creative clamping and layout, but I figured out a way to make a full channel cut in one past. Milling head is swung forward and the workpiece actually passes in front of the milling column...Whatever works, this is a big workpiece!!

Might be next weekend before the channel cuts are all done...:D

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/839/ntc4rc8.jpg

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Whew, channel cutting under way now...

My commercial slotting saw arbor just wasn't going to work, so I had to machine a new one out for 7/8 brass bar I had handy. I should have done this a LONG time ago, sooo much more solid now and runout on the sawblade is almost non-existent.

I'm also my own worst enemy..:rofl:

I just wasn't happy with the layout on the 1/8" channels, I ended up going with a 1/16" slotting saw and tighter spacing so you more or less end up with 1/32" thickness fins and 1/16" channels. This should do much better thermally and flow good as well. Unfortunately this little change will make channel cutting take about 3x as long:eek:

It also took some creative clamping and layout, but I figured out a way to make a full channel cut in one past. Milling head is swung forward and the workpiece actually passes in front of the milling column...Whatever works, this is a big workpiece!!

Might be next weekend before the channel cuts are all done...:D

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/839/ntc4rc8.jpg

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yes martin I agree that would work much better thermaly speaking! :D I am sorry you have more work that way but it is looking great!!!!!

looking very good martin :up:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

looking very good martin :up:

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Cool, I was hoping the little channel thickness change would be alright. It should only be a good thing for pulling heat away.

Here are a couple more, finally got one block cut.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5341/ntc5kz3.jpg

And here is a 40mm TEC for scale, it'll be a bit oversized for 40's, but ready to take on the bigger ones if you decide to later.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3869/ntc6bl8.jpg

Turning out pretty good I think. Ran out of coolant so I'm going to take a break and give the mill motor a rest. I'll do the same for the other block later..:up:

Very very nice job. Congrats :)

wow martin that is looking great!!! Keep up the great work!!!!!!

Just gets better and better. Mart i'm gonna PM you as love to know the price for such item

Thanks!

It's turning out well even if it is taking longer than expected. Probably finish the second base and start working on the tops next weekend or this week if I can squeeze in a little evening time in after work.

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Thanks!

It's turning out well even if it is taking longer than expected. Probably finish the second base and start working on the tops next weekend or this week if I can squeeze in a little evening time in after work.

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martin... remember im in no rush. My project is date is May on Freya. The name of my new machine... also the name of the girl on my avatar :yepp:

And yeah. its from Chobit, and freya is suposidely a super computer. :P

well that is a hot looking super computer LOL

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

martin... remember im in no rush. My project is date is May on Freya. The name of my new machine... also the name of the girl on my avatar :yepp:

And yeah. its from Chobit, and freya is suposidely a super computer. :P

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Sounds good, I got half of the other block channels cut today, will carry on at my normal slow pace...:D

Someday, I'm going to try and build a new system like all you pro case builders do. I'll have to look for some inspiration like that too, that's awesome!:up:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Sounds good, I got half of the other block channels cut today, will carry on at my normal slow pace...:D

Someday, I'm going to try and build a new system like all you pro case builders do. I'll have to look for some inspiration like that too, that's awesome!:up:

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Isn't that always the case, building great stuff for others and you system is growing spider webs on it :shakes:

Keep up the great work, there is always new idea's that expand our playground :yepp: and you seem to be the engine that is driving a lot of the leading edge information and integration. :idea:
Martin you are becomming a true innovator of the Extreme scene :hammer:

Bravo :clap:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Yeah, the block will be big enough to take on 3 x 62mm TECs, so it'll be flexible for later changes if needed:up:

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Well here you go, some Extreme Chillin....:rofl:

543W 12v 62mm 30.5A Thermoelectric Cooler TEC Peltier
Krazy to think about having THREE :shock2: of these on this "Post Rad Chiller"........ Now that i want to see. :shock2:

:eek: :eek: :eek: 543W - 12v - 62mm - 30.5A :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Imagine the lights dim as you fire :smoke: up your system :-)_~


Brand new 62mm TEC, superb quality, most powerful :up: :shocked:

Details:
This is brand spanking new and is potted (sealed with RTV silicone). I've detailed the specs. below to enable you to make your own independent and informed judgement;
At 50°C it consumes 30.5 amps @ 17.8v giving a consumption of 542.9W (0.543Kw).
At 25°C it consumes 30.5 amps @ 15.6v = 475.8w (0.476kw). It's pumping power or Qcmax is impressive @ 50°C being rated at a very respectable 282w, equally as impressive @ 25°C it's Qcmax is 257w.
This TEC has 127 couples and a resistance of 0.31 ohm @ 50°C and 0.27 ohm @ 25°C. It's ΔT N2 @ 50°C is a very healthy 79°C and 68°C @ 25°C. And Finally it's voltage range is 0 - 15v @ 25°C and 0 - 17.8v @ 25°C, and it's leads are AWG 16 Teflon and approx. 6 inches (15cm) in length.

:smoke: :smoke: :explode: :smoke: :smoke: :explode: :smoke: :smoke: :explode: :smoke: :smoke:

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Originally Posted by systemviper

Well here you go, some Extreme Chillin....:rofl:
Imagine the lights dim as you fire :smoke: up your system :-)_~
:smoke: :smoke: :explode: :smoke: :smoke: :explode: :smoke: :smoke: :explode: :smoke: :smoke:

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:rofl: :rofl: :yepp:

Hey I gotta pay for some new testing gear somehow, and I'm just as excited about this idea as well..:D

I got the second base channels cut this evening after work, now I can finally move on to milling some (no cutting fluid needed) acetal....ahhh

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7350/ntc7zp1.jpg

I also need to pick up some beads to bead blast the machining marks away, this seems to roughen the surface a touch for better heat transfer too.

Slowly but surely...:D

Those fins look sorta short. How tall are they?
It looks really nice though, I wish my waterblocks looked that neat (dremel + 15 used up discs ftw).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

Those fins look sorta short. How tall are they?
It looks really nice though, I wish my waterblocks looked that neat (dremel + 15 used up discs ftw).

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They are .100" or a little less than 1/8". They are about as tall as many CPU block pins. I experimented around with taller pins on one block a while back and I didn't gain anything. In this case I wanted to make the base from 1/4" copper, which was already expensive enough, but I wanted to leave .150" for plenty of strength in compressing the pelts too. There is also that time thing...6 hours just to cut the channels per block..:eek:

I think on taller pins you tend to get too much water shying away from scrubbing the base really well. This is already a fairly wide set of channels, so it'll be important to keep the hieght down low to maintain good velocities and turbulence. Sort of like the supreme microchannels, but on a bigger scale.

I think they will be fine, they just looks small when they are on a 7" long x 3 1/2" wide block..:D

Beautiful machining Martin, wish i had the time/skill/tools to pull that off.

I am interested to see how this turns out, nice to see someone actually follow through with a TEC build.

Martin, I realize it's way out of your budget at the moment...but you really must start saving for a CNC machine! A smallish, well-built one will run about 3G's, but based on the amount of time you're spending on just this one project, you can no doubt make up the difference in time savings alone! :)

wow those things are looking great!

Brute torque of the screws, silicone, O-ring, or a gasket to make the seal?

OMG Martin. im seriously in love with your work. :D

Just watching you do this is and all the testing is well worth the cost. :up:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

OMG Martin. im seriously in love with your work. :D

Just watching you do this is and all the testing is well worth the cost. :up:

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LOL better watch it martin he is getting excited. :rofl:

I think you'll find that if you go with even larger cold plates, and taller fins youll get more performance. Not only that, watt for watt, more peltiers would be better. As you then get a larger heat dissipation surface area. Also watercooling the hots is fabulous and all, but air cooling would be sufficienct if the heat was further spread out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleowl

LOL better watch it martin he is getting excited. :rofl:

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dayam straight i am :yepp:

Well nol gave me an option. If i air cool one side i would have 2 plates to work as chillers.

However nol i thought tec's work better if you keep the hotside colder no?

:D
Thanks!
Going to put some time in tomorrow, should have something more to share by the end of the day.

Shooting to have the blocks done by the end of the weekend if all goes well..

Yes they will, however, they work even better when they aren't moving much heat at all ;) If you have 8 tec's that are smaller, they will run cooler, and each share the load with less on each individual. So you'll have an even easier time cooling them. What size is the fin area? Wouldn't want you to waste the copper. But maybe next time work out a fin area around 5 by 12 inches.

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Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

Yes they will, however, they work even better when they aren't moving much heat at all ;) If you have 8 tec's that are smaller, they will run cooler, and each share the load with less on each individual. So you'll have an even easier time cooling them. What size is the fin area? Wouldn't want you to waste the copper. But maybe next time work out a fin area around 5 by 12 inches.

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That unit would make it quite massive. I was already worried about the length on this unit.

But for now i want to try it this way. I just hope martin has fun with all the tests. And i need to hurry and send him my meanwell. :cool:

Thats really not that big, more like two 120mm fans, easily fit into most cases, especially since its a thin unit unlike some rads.

Here is another day of milling, as usual just takes longer than I expected. Only managed to get the internals milled out.

My typical full of chips view....
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8024/ntc8jz2.jpg

Progress:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2186/ntc9am7.jpg

Now I need to start working on the bolts and barbs. I like waiting to finish the block exterior until it's completely assembled. The two pieces will be assembled with Yamabond liquid gasket so it'll be a semi-permanent seal. This is a liquid gasket material for assembling motorcycle engine cases, so it's very durable and can resist coolant, gas, oil whatever you throw at it.

And the mill is sure getting a bit messy, will have to spend a few hours cleaning up this mess... Anyone want some copper/acetal coleslaw?:D

I also recieved the 91Watt TEC's today, so it's coming together..

Wow, didn't see this until I saw it linked in a thread today.


I made a air cooled TEC chiller that uses eight 40w TEC's (IIRC) about five years ago at work. It uses a single 120mm comair rotron AC fan and the TEC's are arranged in a loop that goes up and down a laminar forced air cooling chimney with the heatsinks inside a long shroud.

It was to cool off a rather power hungry CCD imager. I'll post some pics if I get a chance.

Wow... looking very good martin... :up:

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Originally Posted by iandh

Wow, didn't see this until I saw it linked in a thread today.

I made a air cooled TEC chiller that uses eight 40w TEC's (IIRC) about five years ago at work. It uses a single 120mm comair rotron AC fan and the TEC's are arranged in a loop that goes up and down a laminar forced air cooling chimney with the heatsinks inside a long shroud.

It was to cool off a rather power hungry CCD imager. I'll post some pics if I get a chance.

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yeah... i thought it would be more appropreate in the TEC section then in the watercooling section. And it doesnt fully qualify as "chilled water". The water is chilled, but not to their standards.

:T

Also, didnt want a lot of newbies in the liquid cooling section adding things not relavant to this setup.

Thanks!

Been working on the bolts a little this morning, getting there...That top will definately be secured...:D

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

Also, didnt want a lot of newbies in the liquid cooling section adding things not relavant to this setup.

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Haha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Thanks!

Been working on the bolts a little this morning, getting there...That top will definately be secured...:D

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Good work with the manual mill Martin! :up:

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Originally Posted by iandh

Good work with the manual mill Martin! :up:

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Thanks!
CNC envy...must...get...stepper...motors...:)

Got bolts?
I don't think this top is going anywhere...:D

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/891/ntc10cd1.jpg

20 bolts down...28 to go..:eek:

Looking AWESOME Martin, keep up the AMAZING work!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Here is another day of milling, as usual just takes longer than I expected. Only managed to get the internals milled out.

My typical full of chips view....
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8024/ntc8jz2.jpg

Progress:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2186/ntc9am7.jpg

Now I need to start working on the bolts and barbs. I like waiting to finish the block exterior until it's completely assembled. The two pieces will be assembled with Yamabond liquid gasket so it'll be a semi-permanent seal. This is a liquid gasket material for assembling motorcycle engine cases, so it's very durable and can resist coolant, gas, oil whatever you throw at it.

And the mill is sure getting a bit messy, will have to spend a few hours cleaning up this mess... Anyone want some copper/acetal coleslaw?:D

I also recieved the 91Watt TEC's today, so it's coming together..

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Ok that is better then I thought you were going to do. :D
The fins will be fine with the top like that. but I think the restrictions will hurt your flow rate.

Thanks!

I'm going to pressure drop test the block to see how much restriction there is. If it's too much I can take a little bit more off the ceiling to allow a bit more over the Channels. Currently there is .100" fin height and about .110" clearance so it's pretty much all forced through the channels.

We'll see...

I cant wait to see what happens. :)

Pressure drop tested it, and it's actually much better than I expected. Very close to MCW-30, Fuzion without washer, MC-TDX etc...

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1...2pdtestit9.jpg

Restriction is not a problem..:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Pressure drop tested it, and it's actually much better than I expected. Very close to MCW-30, Fuzion without washer, MC-TDX etc...

Restriction is not a problem..:D

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LOL... mmm wonder if my tiny little RD-30 can handle that. :T

Hahah why such a thick peice of delrin/plastic?

Hehe...yeah I thought it was going to be more restrictive than that, I guess the large width and size distributes the flow pretty well. Glad I went with the smaller channels and tight ceiling now..:)

The thicker top was there to provide a couple of things. First the reservoir chambers, this helps distribute the flow into each of the channels equally. Second you can have a barb coming into and out of the ends, and third is for structure. I don't know much about TEC's but I've heard you want something like 150psi pressure on them.

Even the 40mm TECs will still have about 2.5 square inches, that's about 1100lbs of force. There will be a fair amount of bolting pressure, that why I kept the base thickness what it is and why I wanted so many bolts. This makes the base and top act more as one solid block for good strength.

Lot's of pressure on those TECs or so I'm told anyhow..:D

Don't need that much, but damn nice setup and good job :)

You've had more then enough time, more pictures!:(

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Originally Posted by Nanometer

You've had more then enough time, more pictures!:(

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Sorry, since I was setting up my pressure drop test rig, I ran about a dozen other pressure drop tests I'm doing for another customer. I also need to pick up some more taps, 20 holes for a single 4-40 tap is about all she can take...:D

Ok, here is a better picture of the pressure drop test. I did drill and tap the barbs in, that was interesting...I had to clamp it to the side of my drill press table because the block is so long..:D

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/307/ntc13nr0.jpg

Still lots to do, I need to drill and tap all the holes for the second block, and that's four bit changes per hole, because I like perfect countersinks. I end up drilling and tapping a hole on each corner after clamping right through the block. Then I have to drill once clear through both pieces for the tap size, the change the bit to the bolt OD just through the delrin, then I cange again to a 3/16" endmill for the countersink. Then I move on to the next hole.

When I'm all done with that, I get to start tapping just the copper base in each one again in the drill press. Very time consuming...

After that's done I need to drill and tap the barbs for the second block, then I need to cut all the bolts to length, then I can start finishing the tops of the blocks, then take the blocks all apart and bead blast them, finally seal and assemble them, drill the bolt holes for mounting the two blocks together, and finally finishing the base.

Still a ways to go..

Ya and looking quite nice mate
Very nice indeed.