Galvanic Corrosion!

[coolmiester]

I was going to add this to Top Nurses “Whats up with the Aquaduct?” thread but considered it spoilt enough without my contribution so it gets its own thread as I’m sure there will one or two replies..

A long, long time ago before the term “Galvanic Corrosion” was widely used in the watercooling world I made aluminium tops for both a Maze3 and Z-Chip blocks (which shows how long ago). Just to be a bit different

The plan was to have them anodised as I was sort of aware of galvanic corrosion but not entirely sure what effect it would have and after polishing the tops realised I liked them shiny so much decided to throw caution to the wind and fit them bear so to speak.

The system ran 24/7 for over six months with only deionised water and around 2 to 3% Water Wetter and UV dye with absolutely no adverse effects what so ever.

Even though the hose was still relatively clear and the system was running swimmingly the term galvanic corrosion was becoming a widely used term around forums with all sorts of scary mongering attached so in fear of my whole system failing or even worse, blowing up I drained the system and opened the blocks to find only very slight pitting to the aluminium tops and a greyish look to the copper which later became apparent was the aluminium adhering to the copper.

A quick clean and some new hose and liquid they went straight back in my system and ran until the Maze3 was superseded by the Maze4 without a hint of a problem to the over all day to day running.

Shortly after the anodised topped Maze4 GPU came out and I also ran those for years without any major catastrophes as well as Aquatubes, Innovatek GPU blocks and various other anodised aluminium hardware but to this day have never been troubled with the self combusting system or even a pump fail due to galvanic corrosion and had I even considered the effect of galvanic corrosion for longer than a couple of seconds I probably wouldn’t of even made the tops in the first place which would have been an even worse catastrophe imo.


Remember both these bocks were ran for well over a year and nothing blew up

[kiikkuja]

I've been watercooling with mixed setup and haven't noticed any corrosion either...maybe i'm over my head but i think that reading through many posts about this corrosion thing here is a need for good unbiased test for this thing. And yes i´ve
read many threads about it...but why isn´t there any real world tests about it?

[Grinch]

if you feel safe running mixed metal by all means feel free to do it...*-)

for me...not a chance!

[Kallenator]

if you feel safe running mixed metal by all means feel free to do it...*-)

for me...not a chance!

Second that.

It's scary and very common problem... Copper all the way ftw

[_G_]

*grabs popcorn and waits for Top Nurse and ranker to show up*

[Grinch]

*grabs popcorn and waits for Top Nurse and ranker to show up*

[lee143]

*sits next to him and brings the snacks.

[Top Nurse]

*grabs popcorn and waits for Top Nurse and ranker to show up*

There is nothing to comment about. Now Ranker, is a whole different story though.

[elfy]

lmao, _G_ you're surely not suggesting that those two argue at all are you?

[Top Nurse]

Dont the pictures speak for themselves?

Your missing half the fun here. Wait for Ranker to show up.

[Grinch]

hahahaha

[zgundam]

I've been watercooling with mixed setup and haven't noticed any corrosion either...maybe i'm over my head but i think that reading through many posts about this corrosion thing here is a need for good unbiased test for this thing. And yes i´ve
read many threads about it...but why isn´t there any real world tests about it?

Ok, these aren't exactly real world tests in the sense that someone ran a loop with Al + Cu, but they're a interesting if you haven't read it already:

http://www.overclockers.com/articles993/ (Part I)
http://www.overclockers.com/tips1153/ (Part II)

Using mixed metals in a loop isn't going to blow up your PC or something... it just means that you'll need to regularly (ie. once every couple of months) drain and refill your loop with fresh coolant to prevent corrosion from occurring, since corrosion inhibitors don't last forever and do get diminished as it gets used up in mixed metal loops.

And corrosion is bad of course because it lowers block performance...

[DarthBeavis]

The guys at DD disagree with you . . .they used aluminum at one point and not longer due because of this issue. I will go with a vendor's experience.

[Anemone]

*grabs marshmallows, graham crackers and chocolate and waits for the flames to make smores*

[SiGfever]

Your missing half the fun here. Wait for Ranker to show up.

Now this thread was going so nice and you just had to throw out the first punch.

Edit:Well maybe, second punch.

[Grinch]

lol

[nealh]

Ok, these aren't exactly real world tests in the sense that someone ran a loop with Al + Cu, but they're a interesting if you haven't read it already:

http://www.overclockers.com/articles993/ (Part I)
http://www.overclockers.com/tips1153/ (Part II)

Using mixed metals in a loop isn't going to blow up your PC or something... it just means that you'll need to regularly (ie. once every couple of months) drain and refill your loop with fresh coolant to prevent corrosion from occurring, since corrosion inhibitors don't last forever and do get diminished as it gets used up in mixed metal loops.

And corrosion is bad of course because it lowers block performance...

Do you think this applies to the Apogee GTX given the plating process used by Swiftech..please no flames..just trying to learn and avoid issues

I will use either Zerex racing coolant or Pentosin G12 blue in my distilled water

[RickCain]

Maybe Ranker is busy returning his two RD-30 pumps that he had to have or breaking yet another 680i motherboard?

In all seriousness, I experienced the same problem with Dteks original GPU blocks. Six months of use and they were toast. Just goes to show what quality means to a loop. I for one will never mix al and copper when they are bolted together. I'll take my chance when they don't physically connect.

Do you think this applies to the Apogee GTX given the plating process used by Swiftech..please no flames..just trying to learn and avoid issues

I will use either Zerex racing coolant or Pentosin G12 blue in my distilled water

Again, I don't mind mixing metals but then they are bolted down together adds more complication. At the end of the day you will need to check your loop every few months to ensure nothing bad is happening. Since I change my loop every three weeks I don't think I will run into a problem.

[septim]

most likely it didnt affect your temps too much, you have wide channels in those blocks, floating corrosion not likely to block something.
but of course with pin type or blocks with jet type, it would be a diff matter...

also noted the pitted/holes look to alum top would most likely weaken its structural integrity in the long run...

*...bait and flame tactics unbecoming of mature members...*


well at least most informed members admit to wanting to avoid "complications" in the long run.

RickCain every 3 weeks changing loop, you sure have lots of time on hand... paranoid or over zealous comes to mind but its for the best, lolz
why not relax for a while and see what temps would be after a month or 2 and compare. i myself would not want to redo my loop everytime or lack of time
we can see how effective our setups are with the test of time(a few months)...

[NaeKuh]

[Top Nurse]

RickCain every 3 weeks changing loop, you sure have lots of time on hand... paranoid or over zealous comes to mind but its for the best, lolz
why not relax for a while and see what temps would be after a month or 2 and compare. i myself would not want to redo my loop everytime or lack of time
we can see how effective our setups are with the test of time(a few months)...

He has one of those test stands and it's as piece of pie to change things around. If you used push-fits you find it to be a snap to change stuff.

[zgundam]

Do you think this applies to the Apogee GTX given the plating process used by Swiftech..please no flames..just trying to learn and avoid issues

I will use either Zerex racing coolant or Pentosin G12 blue in my distilled water

Hmm.... well according to Swiftech they do double-plate their GTX, so it should be much safer compared to bog-standard anodised AL...

but personally I'd rather play safe and stick with the Apogee GT. Or the Dtek Fuzion, for that matter.

[zgundam]

Again, I don't mind mixing metals but then they are bolted down together adds more complication. At the end of the day you will need to check your loop every few months to ensure nothing bad is happening. Since I change my loop every three weeks I don't think I will run into a problem.

Every 3 weeks!? It'd be nice to change fluid so often (should keep ur tubes nice and transparent), but there's a drought over here so I'd rather not waste clean water that way...

[kiikkuja]

Every 3 weeks!! I ran my loop almost a full year before i took it apart recently.

[ranker]

This is just another flame baiting series of posts by RickCain and Top Nurse and I see little point in replying. It's amusing to see the same dynamic duo resort to attempted personal flames even in the midst of the forum asking for a discussion. I see their same antics that made [H]'s watercooling forum into a joke are now being used here (see post: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=88). However, I was asked by a members of the forum to do so, so here I am.

I find it very strange why anyone would support the use of aluminum within their products. However, upon observation of their systems and builds, it becomes apparently obvious. Those who champion the use of Aluminum, those who deny that galvanic corrosion can occur, are the very people who own loops that contain mixed metals. It's basically an extension of the "I bought it, so it must be best mentality."

Those very people who will defend such a position, no matter how fallible their position is, will go to any length to convince others that the use of aluminum is ok and that galvanic corrosion is a myth. Those who use aluminum based products will do anything to convince others that they know better, and will attempt to convince others to use the very same products...but not for any altruistic reason. Who wants to look stupid right? Kool-aid always tastes better when others sip too right? Or better and more accurately stated, Misery Loves Company. You can't look stupid if there's a bunch of people you've recruited to man the defensive positions with you.

The reasons are numerous for not using aluminum. They've been discussed again and again. Once again, I'll bring up Marci's and Cathar's statements regarding their views upon the use of Alu as I find that they touch on all the important things (I'd like to add that I find it amusing that TN will fully embrace Cathar/Marci when they find data that fits her views, but she discounts everything else they may say if it possibly goes against her preset philosophy: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...postcount=87):

My stance on the use of aluminium is well-documented both here and on all other sites I frequent... that being, just avoid using it and thus avoid the complications that come alongside it. (ie: Is the anodizing good enough...? Has the enduser done sufficient research to know he HAS to use an additive...? Already there are now two factors out of anyone's control to account for - remove the use of aluminium, remove two uncontrollable factors, and thus remove the need for this entire topic which crops up with monotonous regularity every 6 weeks and has doneso for eons)

If we could have the faith that folks would use additive, then this wouldn't be a problem, but this whole thread highlights a lack of research, plain and simple. For nearing 10 years it's been common knowledge that you need to run anticorrosive additives alongside aluminium blocks in watercooling systems... to miss this fact simply demonstrates that adequate research prior to the purchase of the parts is lacking. This is what happens when watercooling becomes more mainstream. Parts availability becomes easy, and folks don't bother doing their research first.

This info is WIDELY spread across ALL forums that I frequent... it is covered in every watercooling guide I've ever read, and in more or less every watercooling sections' sticky by default... it's almost the first rule of watercooling it's that old.

Ignore the terminology I use in this next sentence, it isn't meant to be insulting... it's just a suitable way of phrasing it and I can't be assed to think of a more P/C way of saying it...

Manufacturers cannot account for the idiot factor (aka net-clue-factor to coin Cathar's way of saying it). If you can't account for the idiot factor, don't build items that an idiot cannot use correctly.

To release alu blocks is milking the market. Manufacturers know there is a HIGH risk of that aluminium block getting destroyed by what I'd say would be a good 50% of the watercooling market (the chunk that don't do their research and just dive in head first). This destruction isn't covered by warranty, so another sale is milked from the equation when that customer requires a replacement. A responsible manufacturer would include a note in with every block clearly stating that an anticorrosive additive MUST be used.

...

I wholly agree with Marci's statements. Using aluminium is just a recipe for disaster. Yes, an informed customer will take the steps to ensure that it's not a problem.

Being a bit of a perfectionist though, there is actually a problem with the approach of demanding additives to protect the system. All additives decrease the thermal properties of water, and by the time we're talking about enough additives to protect aluminium in a copper system, we're actually talking about a significant performance reduction.

Aluminium doesn't belong in a copper system for the reasons that Marci listed, and it doesn't belong in any performance system either.

Stew.

Why endorse the use of a material that can most often be easily replaced with one that doesn't offer any negative repercussions to the user? There's no benefit whatsoever for the use of aluminum over copper. Aluminum may be cheaper, but what do you care? People who bring up the price are the very people that want you to to think that using aluminum is ok for their own selfish, self serving reasons. The price of copper and aluminum have very little impact upon the final price of the component itself, with the possible exception of radiators. The price of copper fluctuates between $3-4 per pound. The price of aluminum is less than a dollar a pound. Most waterblocks are made with 1/2 to 1 pound of copper. Obviously the cost of the materials alone is less than 4% of the average CPU waterblock (average cost estimated at $75). Obviously, the cost of the materials themselves do not exactly weigh heavily upon the final price of the product itself. Now a wise ass will reply "but but but, what about the cost involved in manufacturing the product. Isn't aluminum easier to mill/cut?" Absolutely. It's much easier to work with. However, the cost of anodizing or plating of aluminum far exceeds the cost of just milling copper. There is no savings cost for the company that will be passed onto the customer. Quite simply, if the manufacturer is given two options, both of which cost the same, but one of which not only prevents the damage of components, but also performs better, why doesn't the manufacturer choose the more efficient option?

Many believe that these very manufacturers guilty of such a course seek to milk the user/market by letting their product eventually die (as corrosion doesn't occur over night, it's a timely process). This is very similar to the portable audio sector where manufacturers design for "planned obsolescence." It’s a dirty technique that manufacturers employ to ensure that their products won’t last long otherwise it'd cut into the profitability of the company. How is this achieved? From the designing board they make sure the product won’t last, be it the design or actual functionality. An old high school acquaintance of mine works on the design team in charge of Apple Ipod revisions. I kept pestering him whenever we get a chance to meet about the drastically increased failure rate of an Ipod past the 2 year of usage. He stated that the majority of the failures were caused by the hard drives failing. I asked him why Apple wouldn't commit to a full scale shift towards selling Ipods using solid state media (eg: Ipod Nano's). He then looked at me and said, "then how are we going to convince you to buy another Ipod for $300? I've got options to look over you know." I think you all get the point here.

Another problem with aluminum is the eventual damage to copper components within the same loop. It might not occur over night, but its a scientific fact that it does and will occur if the necessary precautions aren't taken care of. Many users have shown us here on XS, what has and will happen if additives aren't used: blocks have been damaged to the point of inefficiency, radiators sprung leaks in their cores from the corrosion resulting in damaged/destroyed systems.

There was a point in time when watercooling was a black art where it was predominantly utilized only by a small niche of performance seeking enthusiasts. Without the kits that are abundant in today's market, those who participated learned through the collective efforts of those within the community. People learned the hard way not to mix metals and it became common knowledge as warning posts were aplenty. Fast forward to today and you'll see that the watercooling ecosystem is no longer dominated by benchmark driven enthusiasts. The average PC enthusiast and some will say the average PC gamer will dabble with watercooling. Water cooling has gone a long way, where kits are now abundant, standards are finally existent, and the hobby is no longer taboo. With the mainstream crowd, many can be expected to NOT read up on the forums regarding issues with aluminum and can't be trusted to maintain mixed metal loops properly. As Marci stated, if you can't trust a person to use a product in a particular manner, then you should build around it to eliminate the possible problem.

As much as we'd like to think that we're the most important part of the WC'ing community, manufacturers will say otherwise. Like Marci has stated, we probably represent only 2% of the entire water cooling community. That means a large majority will never have had the opportunity to become a totally informed user, but have purchased watercooling products and represent a much larger group that supports the water cooling economy.

By using mixed metals, these manufacturers will hurt the watercooling economy in the long term. Newer hobbyists may feel as if they got cheated, or worse yet, they may just say "I knew it all along. Water and electronics don't mix." They're lack of support for the watercooling economy indirectly affects all of us. Less involved in watercooling = less volume. less volume = higher prices to maintain company profit expectations. higher prices = ranker and many others unhappy. higher prices = less sales. Less sales = less money directed towards R&D for new innovations for the water cooling community. Basically, in the end, we all lose if the new participants are burned and don't help support the watercooling economy. I for one, would like to see watercooling not only persist as a viable hobby, but to also see new development.

Now say for example, even if by some act of God, every man, woman, and child is taught that one can't run a mixed metal loop without additives, the use of these additives lower the thermal conductivity of water. By lowering the thermal conductivity of water, we lose out on performance. Isn't maximizing performance one of the main goals of water cooling? Whether the loss of performance is 10C or just .1C, the fact remains that its results in inefficiency. This isn't like the inverse relationship between fan cfm and noise. You're giving up performance with no positive to be gained whatsoever from the use of aluminum and its required additives.

I ask why use aluminum when it offers no performance benefits, yet results in so many burdens and negatives? Why risk galvanic corrosion, be forced to use additives thereby reducing the efficiency of your loop, and embody an attitude that could hurt the water cooling community?

I'm sure some will say "I want the choice, just like I want to choose if I want to smoke or not." Unfortunately, I don't see that analogy applying towards watercooling. One would basically be saying "I want the choice to be able to run a suboptimal configuration while paying the same amount of money (if not more) for an optimal configuration."

Galvanic corrosion is just one of the many negative effects that stems from the use of aluminum. I believe it's your choice to use whatever it is that you please. However, I find it not only unprofessional, but also unethical for people to either dismiss the possibility of corrosion, but downplay it as well. I also believe it is unethical for companies to put out products that a large group of users may not know how to use properly resulting in damage towards their investments.

In the end, I'd like to ask? Why don't you the user want the manufacturers to do away with alu altogether? It's a win win for us, and nothing for us to lose and everything to gain. There's no well grounded reason to defend its use by manufacturers. Anyhow, choose as you may for your own personal system, but don't recommend others to use aluminum based products nor downplay the likely negative repercussions.