Fan Testing Round 5 (Working Thread)Are "NANO" Bearings the new sliced bread?

**Martinm210** · 10-09-2010, 07:45 AM

Thanks guys,
The new test rig is working pretty well I think. I got a pile of T2I HD videos and Zoom H1 audio recorded in the wee hours this morning before the munch-kins woke up. Overall I'm happy with the test rig with the exception of my anemometer making some noise at the 40CFM + level, but it's relative to all the tests, so it's ok. The egg-crate foam seemed to do an exceptional job at eliminating any chamber noise and the flow spreaders seemed to work great in the one push/pull test I ran. If I could change only thing, it would be to find a higher quality anemometer. I'd be curious to try a hotwire anemometer, these should be completely silent. Unfortunately, they don't come cheap.

Now just to download and process the 25GB worth of recording data and start processing...

**mlee49** · 10-09-2010, 08:22 AM

WOOT!

Can you list your test system specs? I think you did in the other thread, but having it available would be pretty sweet.

**meanmoe** · 10-09-2010, 09:56 AM

hot film anemometers are also pretty delicate and difficult to calibrate but as you know excellent for low speed velocity measurements. You can get variations within a flow field pretty well too. We used one in a low speed smoke tunnel for turbulent flow and separations studies about 6-7 years ago. The anemometer was already pretty old then. It required extensive calibration the result of which was a 5th order calibration curve. The other thing was that if someone touched the filament to anything it would either break, lose repeatability, or at very least require re-calibration. There are other options too though. You can get pretty accurate by varying the cross-section and taking pressure measurements.

Looks like your happy for now though... Wow... 25gb

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by meanmoe

hot film anemometers are also pretty delicate and difficult to calibrate but as you know excellent for low speed velocity measurements. You can get variations within a flow field pretty well too. We used one in a low speed smoke tunnel for turbulent flow and separations studies about 6-7 years ago. The anemometer was already pretty old then. It required extensive calibration the result of which was a 5th order calibration curve. The other thing was that if someone touched the filament to anything it would either break, lose repeatability, or at very least require re-calibration. There are other options too though. You can get pretty accurate by varying the cross-section and taking pressure measurements.

Looks like your happy for now though... Wow... 25gb

Interesting! If nothing else, I may buy another slightly higher quality anemometer, I really haven't bothered trying to calibrate this one much or understand it's accuracy level since I've been relying on relative measurements per round.

How responsive are the hot wire version? (How quickly does the reading stabilize). It seems like this vane anemometer takes a good 3-5 seconds to catch up and average out...would be nice if something was a bit faster. This one also has an RS-232 output, I've just never tried hooking it up to a computer since I need silence when testing.

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 07:26 AM

Got a few of the videos uploaded, still working on slowly rendering and uploading this mass amount of data. I was having some PC stability issues yesterday with all the rendering, so it's going a bit slow on the processing side of things (need to upgrade to an I7 system, this old Q6600 is getting tired..

)

Anyhow, this is what I have to share so far:
INDIVIDUAL VIDEOS

R5 Fan Test Cooler Master R4 2000RPM R4-C2R-20AC-GP DF1202512RFUNCF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRmC5NnZH1U

R5 Fan Test Gelid FN-FW12-15-B Wing 12 1500RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEr74q-HbBg

R5 Fan Test Noise Blocker PL-2 1400 RPM Black Silent Pro Fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywXYTC8dL9k

R5 Fan Test Servo Nidec (Scythe) Gentle Typhoon AP-15 1850RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm6jlrqifQE

So far I'm liking the Coolermaster's raw pressure oriented power, those curved 9 blades really hold their own for straight power needs. Not sure about noise yet, but I like the noiseblocker's deeper and low sound response a lot too. I also noticed a strange behavior with the GT, it still had a few bad resonance peaks as specific voltages, but it also seems to have an operational state change right near 12V where you can actually hear a change in the way the air sounds. I'm not quite sure what that is, but it's good for it's 12V operation....or it could just be an odd anomaly with the RS120 radiator. Not sure.. Anyhow, I figured I'd just keep cranking on all the single vids and post updates as they get loaded, then try to do a similar comparison video at the end for the 10,20,30,40cfm like performance levels.

**zalbard** · 10-10-2010, 07:44 AM

Looks like GT is still a lot better than the other ones so far.

Great testing videos, btw, keep up the good work!

Will you be also comparing these to San Ace 9G1212H101(1)? It's supposed to have a bit higher static pressure and a bit lower CFM with the same level of noise as GT.

**MagisD** · 10-10-2010, 07:57 AM

Dammit somebody needs to send you new rad and gt's. This ones an anomaly. Werid thing is it wasn't there in the big round up you did.

Bearing dry out a little bit? That would cause that whine at certain rpms. To many years of fixing motors with my grand father showed me that. Slow not enough to whine middle it just right and fast it pulls off so whine goes away.

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by zalbard

Looks like GT is still a lot better than the other ones so far.

Great testing videos, btw, keep up the good work!

Will you be also comparing these to San Ace 9G1212H101(1)? It's supposed to have a bit higher static pressure and a bit lower CFM with the same level of noise as GT.

The GT is still really good, particularly at higher rpms, although it does have a few spotty resonance voltages on the RS120. Nobody has volunteered a San Ace. I spent $35 to order another RPM monitor, but not planning to buy more fans anytime soon.

Originally Posted by MagisD

Dammit somebody needs to send you new rad and gt's. This ones an anomaly. Werid thing is it wasn't there in the big round up you did.

Bearing dry out a little bit? That would cause that whine at certain rpms. To many years of fixing motors with my grand father showed me that. Slow not enough to whine middle it just right and fast it pulls off so whine goes away.

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk

My old jvc recordings didn't quite have the same ability to pick out the details, but it could be the fan I suppose or particular rad. I've been thinking about buying another rad, but Id probably buy a 140 magicool rad before getting another 120. I would like to spend a little time playing with 140 mm fans too...

I ordered a new Kaze master controller this month

, and Ill have to buy sony vegas and the noise software soon too..so enough hobby spending for me..maybe in a few months I can look at other things.

**zalbard** · 10-10-2010, 08:43 AM

Maybe someone in US has a San Ace 9G1212H101(1) they can lend you? They are quite popular. In any case, just a suggestion.

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by MagisD

Dammit somebody needs to send you new rad and gt's. This ones an anomaly. Werid thing is it wasn't there in the big round up you did.

Bearing dry out a little bit? That would cause that whine at certain rpms. To many years of fixing motors with my grand father showed me that. Slow not enough to whine middle it just right and fast it pulls off so whine goes away.

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk

I'm working on processing the noctua, and it also had some similar resonance spots. I suspect it's the RS120 radiator just resonating with certain fans since I've now experienced it with two different test rigs. I guess I wouldn't worry too much about those resonance spikes that come and go, they will probably vary on each and every setup anyhow. Just because it happens doesn't mean it will or wont on other setups. Just one of those things that happens with vibration and sound.

This is the main reason I'm testing on a radiator. Fan specs and fan testing in open air scenarios just don't complete the picture for me. This, while limited as well, at least gives me some awareness about the things that can happen. Sound and vibration induced noises are interesting, and much more complex than a simple dB or dBA number..

Thank goodness for fan controllers so we can tune those things out.

That's also why I'm recording these, so I can share the little details...good and bad.

Originally Posted by zalbard

Maybe someone in US has a San Ace 9G1212H101(1) they can lend you? They are quite popular. In any case, just a suggestion.

Not that I know of, but I'll keep an eye on that one.

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 11:04 AM

Got a few more single videos added, Yate loon, Zalman, and Noctua for cross referencing. I also just wanted to add a few more in to see how the test rig does.

This is what I have so far:

INDIVIDUAL VIDEOS

R5 Fan Test Cooler Master R4 2000RPM R4-C2R-20AC-GP DF1202512RFUNCF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRmC5NnZH1U

R5 Fan Test Gelid FN-FW12-15-B Wing 12 1500RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEr74q-HbBg

R5 Fan Test Noise Blocker PL-2 1400 RPM Black Silent Pro Fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywXYTC8dL9k

R5 Fan Test Servo Nidec (Scythe) Gentle Typhoon AP-15 1850RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm6jlrqifQE

R5 Fan Test Yate Loon D12SM12 Curved Blade Black 1650RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiN1p8iX5EA

R5 Fan Test Zalman ZM-F3 1800RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBKa9SXliWk

R5 Fan Test Noctua NF-P12 1300RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_27oS9kO4I

I also have a modified Silverstone AP121 test, yate push/push, and yate push/pull test I'll be adding as I get the videos compiled and uploaded.

**Vampiyer** · 10-10-2010, 11:59 AM

Nice work again, Martin.

When I was doing loudspeaker measurements as a hobby, I noted that there could be repeatable environmentally induced harmonics within the measurements. Sometimes these were related to the size of the speaker (size of the fan perhaps in this instance) and its relation to the mounting baffle (perhaps similar here, who knows). In this case, if we decide that we see repeated artifacts, then we should try to assess any patterns.

I see peaks at 100-200hz, and especially ~400hz (and possibly at 1200-1400hz as a 3rd harmonic of 400-500). The fans don't always excite these modes, but they seem to do so several times throughout their RPM range. Just for reference, 400hz corresponds to a wavelength of about 86cm.

This seems true for some fans more so than for others.

I'll have to watch all the videos more closely when I'm in the mood to take notes (or maybe you've already done that for us). But it's also worth noting that we'll all have to contend with our own noise artifacts within our setups.

Of interest is that you can make a powerful ultra low frequency subwoofer out of a (large) servo-controlled fan-like device. To control the movement of airflow is to control the sound produced.

Thanks for the new data

Edit: yes, you seem to be fully aware of everything I've said. Nvm... heh... I need to L2Read.

**SuperSilent** · 10-10-2010, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Martinm210

How responsive are the hot wire version? (How quickly does the reading stabilize). It seems like this vane anemometer takes a good 3-5 seconds to catch up and average out...would be nice if something was a bit faster. This one also has an RS-232 output, I've just never tried hooking it up to a computer since I need silence when testing.

ive been using a hotwire probe for vortex shedding stuff from the traiing edge of an airfoil and had the thing calebrated upto 5kHz velocity fluctuations

, the calebration to absolute velocity is a pain in the ass tho.

Edit:
the amplifiers need to be left for a couple of hours to heat up after you turn them on for the electronics to reach a stable temperature otherwise you get measurement drift

. alltogetther they aren't fun to use

**bobisgod** · 10-10-2010, 01:08 PM

Martin, in your tests, which fans did you find to have the nicest sound? And thanks for another test

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vampiyer

Nice work again, Martin.

When I was doing loudspeaker measurements as a hobby, I noted that there could be repeatable environmentally induced harmonics within the measurements. Sometimes these were related to the size of the speaker (size of the fan perhaps in this instance) and its relation to the mounting baffle (perhaps similar here, who knows). In this case, if we decide that we see repeated artifacts, then we should try to assess any patterns.

I see peaks at 100-200hz, and especially ~400hz (and possibly at 1200-1400hz as a 3rd harmonic of 400-500). The fans don't always excite these modes, but they seem to do so several times throughout their RPM range. Just for reference, 400hz corresponds to a wavelength of about 86cm.

This seems true for some fans more so than for others.

I'll have to watch all the videos more closely when I'm in the mood to take notes (or maybe you've already done that for us). But it's also worth noting that we'll all have to contend with our own noise artifacts within our setups.

Of interest is that you can make a powerful ultra low frequency subwoofer out of a (large) servo-controlled fan-like device. To control the movement of airflow is to control the sound produced.

Thanks for the new data

Edit: yes, you seem to be fully aware of everything I've said. Nvm... heh... I need to L2Read.

I really don't know much about sound. I played around with car audio and speaker box building way back in my high school days, but I never really got into the science behind it. This is all pretty new to me, and I'm learning and absorbing different materials as I go. Anyhow, that's interesting, good stuff!

Originally Posted by SuperSilent

ive been using a hotwire probe for vortex shedding stuff from the traiing edge of an airfoil and had the thing calebrated upto 5kHz velocity fluctuations

, the calebration to absolute velocity is a pain in the ass tho.

Edit:
the amplifiers need to be left for a couple of hours to heat up after you turn them on for the electronics to reach a stable temperature otherwise you get measurement drift

. alltogetther they aren't fun to use

Bummer, I was hoping there would be a good remote probe type silent option. I don't like the noise the anemometer vane adds, you can hear some of the clicking type noises in these tests up near 40+cfm levels. I suppose a pitot tube+ manometer would be a good silent method as well...I just really like the convenience of the anemometer with remote readout and calibration ability to read CFM.

Originally Posted by bobisgod

Martin, in your tests, which fans did you find to have the nicest sound? And thanks for another test

I'm not sure yet, the computer has been cranking away at video renders. I did like the Noiseblocker at lower levels and GT at higher CFM levels. After I get all the single videos done, I'll start cutting out and comparing like CFM levels....

**SuperSilent** · 10-10-2010, 01:43 PM

pitot tube + electronic pressure transducer (£50) + usb datalogger (£140) = nice automated system.

we use sensors by these people:
http://www.sensortechnics.com/index....a65aa2f14103b5

bit expensive but very reliable and easy to use,

also the construction of your fan test chamber is very much like an orrifice plate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice_plate
so you could probably get away without using the pitot probe

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by SuperSilent

pitot tube + electronic pressure transducer (£50) + usb datalogger (£140) = nice automated system.

we use sensors by these people:
http://www.sensortechnics.com/index....a65aa2f14103b5

bit expensive but very reliable and easy to use,

also the construction of your fan test chamber is very much like an orrifice plate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice_plate
so you could probably get away without using the pitot probe

Thanks! I'm looking into it, I'm just not sure with these lower CFM levels if I can measure pressures that small. Even with a 3.5" diameter reduction, I'm still only measuring velocities from about 100-600 feet/min, and my particular meter seems to struggle below around 100 and make noise at 500.

If I understand this right, using a pitot tube would require measuring pressures down under .01" H2O. That's getting really small. I know dwyer has some meters that measure down to .001", but that seems like a challenge.

I think if I was going to upgrade, I'd just buy a nice brand name anemometer. Something like this would be nice:

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/P...eName=Ordering

Just have to pick up a few lottery tickets and I'm all set..

**Vampiyer** · 10-10-2010, 04:12 PM

Our little community should set up a fund for you. If a hundred of us contribute just a few $$$, it'll work.

My only worry is that you'll feel pressured to... measure pressure... might ruin the flow of things...

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 04:49 PM

lol..

actually a lot of people have been really generous. Pretty much every single fan I test short of a few yates was donated by someone. It's been really cool around here.

I'm wondering if I could take an old fan apart and create an anemometer of sorts out of the RPM sensor..

I don't know much about the electronics, but it seems like that might work??

Anyhow, got all the single videos done:

INDIVIDUAL VIDEOS

R5 Fan Test Cooler Master R4 2000RPM R4-C2R-20AC-GP DF1202512RFUNCF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRmC5NnZH1U

R5 Fan Test Gelid FN-FW12-15-B Wing 12 1500RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEr74q-HbBg

R5 Fan Test Noise Blocker PL-2 1400 RPM Black Silent Pro Fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywXYTC8dL9k

R5 Fan Test Servo Nidec (Scythe) Gentle Typhoon AP-15 1850RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm6jlrqifQE

R5 Fan Test Yate Loon D12SM12 Curved Blade Black 1650RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiN1p8iX5EA

R5 Fan Test Zalman ZM-F3 1800RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBKa9SXliWk

R5 Fan Test Noctua NF-P12 1300RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_27oS9kO4I

R5 Fan Test Modified Silverstone AP121 1500RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-iHY4q05z8

R5 Fan Test Push + Push Yate Loon D12SM12 Curved Blade 2X fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkcDp2bf640

R5 Fan Test Push + Pull Yate Loon D12SM12 Curved Blade 2X fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wsSSMKHY1s

I did the tests...now you guys go do the review...

You can open up videos in multiple windows and compare similar CFM levels. Let me know what you think. I think I'll go play with this fan to Anemometer conversion idea..

Cheers!
Martin

**Metroid** · 10-10-2010, 04:58 PM

@Martinm210: There are 4 displays, the first is the CFM, second is the DBA, The fourth is the Voltage. What is the third display? Is it the pressure?

**Vapor** · 10-10-2010, 05:15 PM

Third looks to be amps.

Liking that new SPL histogram/FFT software, the single dBA output matches my ear pretty well too

Great stuff Martin! Thanks for doing this

**BeepBeep2** · 10-10-2010, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Metroid

@Martinm210: There are 4 displays, the first is the CFM, second is the DBA, The fourth is the Voltage. What is the third display? Is it the pressure?

Amps?

**Church** · 10-10-2010, 06:15 PM

Martin: out of curiosity - if you don't mind potentially worsen performance of fan maybe you can try paint mod to GTs and actually try to measure impact on noise from possible disbalance of blades to give some more data for those wishing to change looks of fan but not loosing it's quiet performance.

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 06:25 PM

Thanks guys,

Yes, third display is Amps. After frying my RPM monitor, I had to add something back in there..

I do like the new software, the spectrum on top is now A-weighted and the SPL number on top is also A weighted. These all come from using the Zoom H1 handy recorder which uses two microphones of higher quality than the Mastech. I didn't calibrate the SPL numbers to anything, just accepted the default in the software. My Zoom H1 was also set to manual level 100 this time to get the most I could out of the recorder and help with not having to turn up the volume so high when listening.

Anyhow, it was a good experience. Go ahead and post what you all think between them using the videos. I thought it would be interesting to reserve my own judgement and let everyone else chime in..

**Martinm210** · 10-10-2010, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by churchy

Martin: out of curiosity - if you don't mind potentially worsen performance of fan maybe you can try paint mod to GTs and actually try to measure impact on noise from possible disbalance of blades to give some more data for those wishing to change looks of fan but not loosing it's quiet performance.

I only have the one (and not willing to sacrifice), but would be willing to try it if someone is game on supporting the effort with another one.

Thread: Fan Testing Round 5 (Working Thread)Are "NANO" Bearings the new sliced bread?

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